From Jung: "That which we do not bring into consciousness appears in our lives as fate."

This makes me wonder if karma from prior lives could be reinterpreted as the subconscious and more specifically the shadow. 

I'm wondering if buddhist teachings offer techniques for "purifying" or maybe "removing" bad karma ? My current understanding is that negative karma can be "offset" by good karma from present actions.

On one level I can see the realization of no self as offering a way to "get through" bad karma with minimal suffering. But from a pragmatic point it would seem worthwhile to reduce bad karma too.

Is the dark night dealing with bad karma ?  Or maybe dark night is bad karma being played out ? 

How do you interpret that statement? In other words, from what first-hand personal experience of your own do you find validity in this statement such that you would bring it up on this forum? I'm looking for specifics here, not generalizations and not intellection posing as experience.


I know how Gotama defines kamma. What I do not know is how you define kamma. So, what is your definition of kamma. And be specific.


What do you think the practice of satipattana is all about? If one understands the profundity and depth of that practice, then of course it can have a purifying effect on the mind of the practitioner. Even so far as helping him remove what you call "the shadows" and what Gotama called the asavas. You see, one has to know and correctly understand the meaning of the terms being used in order to be able to recognize (from their firsthand observation) their play in the mind and thus benefit from what is being taught. However, in conjunction with this, one must be an advanced practitioner in order to be able to accomplish this on one's own. Otherwise, it may be more expedient to hire someone (as in psychotherapy) to assist one with the endeavor of removing certain key asavas.

As for removing or offsetting negative effects of so-called "bad karma" we first need to know what your definition of that term is in order to be able to ascertain that you know what you are talking about.


Realization of "without self" can be helpful on many levels within a practitioner's training. However, it is being constantly mindful of this realization that brings peace of mind and liberation from dukkha.

As for "reducing bad karma," one first must be working with a correct definition (right view) of that concept before any positive benefit can be realized.

Hi Ian,

Thanks for humouring me. I'll try to answer your questions but I was also asking questions because it is not 100% clear.

It was a quote that resonated for me, I came back to it a few times. It is most obvious when watching how other people behave. Often people blame external circumstance but it is clear to many people around them they brought the situation upon themselves. They may explain the situation by "luck" or perhaps "destiny". That would be a way to avoid bringing something into consciousness.

An example would be becoming aware of the limits of text communication. This led to broken relationships because I was making so many assumptions unconsciously. I'd explain the resulting problems as out of my control (i.e their problems not mine) which is what I associate with fate (those things I can't influence). I'm assuming fate is determined by cause and effect i.e. no need for god(s).

The association with "bring into consciousness" and mindfulness is strong for me which is why it made sense to post here.



I'm familiar with something like what wiki states "karma refers to action driven by intention which leads to future consequences. Those intentions are considered to be the determining factor in the kind of rebirth in samsara, the cycle of rebirth." My undestanding is that karma is not just influencing the kind of rebirth but also the dukkha to be experienced in that lifetime. 



As I understand it satipatthana can help us improve our ability to create good karma and improve our ability to avoid causing bad karma but it is not going to in and of itself change existing karma. Karma is caused by action in the world. So for example you could have great mindfulness skills and a whole heap of bad karma that will need to get "burned" through. I have vague memories of a suttas describing an arahant being stoned due to karma (he would have had great satipatthana skills).

You did not ask for a definition of shadow I don't think shadow is directly related to asavas. One does not "remove" the shadow - it is always there. One becomes aware of it and possibley integrates it. Shadow is more closely related to personality.

Agreed and Jung's concept of shadow is one of the terms we need to agree on.


The vast majority of western teachers I've heard talking about this do not make that claim. In fact they make the opposite - that satipatthana needs to be complimented. Maybe not via psychotherapy or psychoanalysis but with techniques deriving from western psychology e.g. 12 step programs, CBT etc.


This is a potential recipe for disaster if someone (not you) believes themselves to be an "advanced practitioner" and has developed the ability not to ruminate (the conscience can then basically be switched off). They could easily be spiritual bypassing as opposed to progressing.

Does the Buddha claim liberation for dukkha during this life time ? My understanding is that dukkha will cease upon death (no rebirth). Of course there will be a lot less suffering if one can keep mindful of no self but for example anyone living with intimate relationships is still doing to experience dukkha. There is still the karma to work through too.


Hopefully I've provided enough info to give the gist of my view.

If anyone is interested , one could look into the value of yonisaro manisakara.  That should help clear up Spiritual Bypassing, or tendencies to avoid reality as it presents itself from moment to moment.

http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh463-p.html

In my current view, Spiritual Bypassing does not exist when one follows Buddha's teaching, correctly, in fact the opposite occurs, one comes face to face with all phenomenon, pleasant , unpleasant, and neutral, internally and externally, nothing is ignored.

Ehipassiko.

Psi

Hi Mark, I am wondering now also about, 

"That which we can not bring into consciousness appears in our lives as fate."  

Which brings in the advice on imponderables.  I am not judjing or taking any sides or being dogmatic, I am just posting what is said about imponderables.  The precise working out the results of karma being one of them.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.077.than.html


Which could be what you are pointing to, phenomenon we can not bring into consciousness.  So we are left to work with phenomenon we can bring into consciousness.  A human limitation indeed.  Which is why I think contemplation and reviewing is vital to any practice.

Psi

Thx for the link Psi

Hi Psi,

I also think that which we "do not" bring into consciousness would include things that we "can not" bring into consciousness.

Regarding the imponderables I think you are misunderstanding my question. I am not tring to work out the precise results of karma. There is good and bad karma and we should make that distinction. Imponderables are not things that we can't bring into consciousness, they are things that the Buddha believed would not lead to anything insightful. Fortunately Darwin was not a Buddhist.

Regarding your earlier message in this thread, it is a good article. I'm guessing it covers similar ground to what Ian has pointed toward in other threads. 

I don't think spiritual bypassing is as black and white as you would like it to be. There are shades of grey. At one extreme you could have somebody convinced all they need to do is concentration practices - this could lead to the "jhana junky". In that case there could be a huge amount of spiritual bypassing going on. At another extreme you could have someone who has developed diverse contemplative techniques fully and believes that is all that is needed. The point that I've heard made by quite a few teachers is that contemplative techniques are limited and other techniques are needed to deal with certain types of issues. It makes sense to me and explains some bizarre behavior of people who have great contemplative skills. But I agree there would still be far less spiritual bypassing going on - at the same time this still leave the door open to disaster.

I understand the buddha taught one becomes a monk to complete the path. There are many issues that do not come up for a monk that a layperson needs to deal with. A monk may not be spiritual bypassing because they are not in circumstances where that would happen.

I think you are on the right track that diverse contemplative practises are going to "bring into consciousness" more material. Certainly some contemplative techniques are going to bring previously unconscious patterns into consciousness. You understandably want the contemplative practises to be able to answer everything that can be answered. You will no doubt make a lot of progress trying to prove that. At some point you will also run into the limitations of that approach, at that point you could continue to dodge the issues (what I would call spiritual bypassing) or you'll look toward complimentary technniques.  

Here is an analogy that helped me. In buddhism mind is considered another sense - like vision. You are probably familiar with optical illusions. It does not matter that you know it is an optical illusion and you have already seen it etc, it still works. This is because there is unconscious processing of the visual field going on - it does not matter how much you meditate etc you are not going to be able to rewire the brain so you stop seeing an optical illusion. It makes sense there are similar "illusions" for the mind when contemplating.

When you wrote "nothing is ignored" I think you may be confusing what unconscious means. We do not ignore unconscious things. We can only ignore things that we can choose to also be conscious of.

Another analogy, if you get a splinter in your foot you could manage the pain with mindfulness and continue walking. You could also pull out the splinter. 

Okay, let us say there is a wide spectrum of spiritual bypassing, all kinds of it, sure.  Now what?  
We find out what we are ignorant of and then fix it, right?  Contemplation is a tool, to help see what needs fixin', then there are other methods and techniques to do the fixin'.

 I do not think every single practioner in the world is spiritually bypassing and is headed for disaster.


Well, yeah, one has to use all techniques and methods available.  What issues are being dodged?  Who is dodging issues?  I think most Yogis are trying to confront issues, not dodge them.  Insight is a Method that , along with the Noble Eightfold Path, allows one to constantly be Mindful of what they are doing and be constantly Mindful of what is going on around them so that they can confront issues and reality, not bypass or avoid reality.

So, what is your suggestion?  

Side Note, 
Some optical illusions can be seen through, btw.  And Schizophrenics do not see some illusions that the rest of humanity falls for.

Watch video halfway into Wired article for illusion test, pretty weird.


http://www.wired.com/2009/04/schizoillusion/

Maybe , Schizphrenics see reality correctly, and the rest of humanity "Reality Bypasses" the weirdness
Those mental contents that the ego does not recognise fall into the Personal Unconscious.  The Personal Unconscious is made up of suppressed and forgotten memories, traumas, etc.  All psychic contents which are either too weak to reach consciousness, or  which are actively supressed by the ego, because the latter is threatened by them.

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Jung/collective_unconscious.html


It is during Insight meditation , that this kind of stuff arises to the consciousness, for me anyway, and only then am I able to deal with it, the method I generally use is to observe the unconscious phenomenon while in a conscious state of equanimity.  In this way the mental content is effectively acknowledged and discharged, at the least it will be weakened, and if it should return later will be even easier to deal with.  It is not always easy, all the crud and crap, wrongdoings, regrets, and remorses, unfinished desires, all of it, will arise, if one is patient enough.  From my current view, if one has not initially established a Strong State of Equanimity, hang on it's gonna be a rough ride.  Some of the stuff in the unconscious will knock one into a loop de loop, if equanimity is not strong enough, and sometimes even if you think it was strong enough.

Which brings me around to one last consideration,  

If one follows the Eightfold path, and specifically, has correctly Practiced Right Livelihood, Right Action, Right Speech, kept the Five Precepts, they will sometimes be at a point where there is not anything to ruminate about.  And, at the same time the conscience is not switched off, but remains on high alert to any transgressions that one may perform that would cause distress and rumination to follow.  So, for some, what seems like the ability not to ruminate is not an ability derived from the path at all, but rather a result of the Path.

Of course this does not apply to Sociopaths, they are wired differently, and do not really have a conscience to contend with.

Thank you for the discussion Mark, you bring up some very good points, we all should continue to investigate and not become complacent, leaving no stone unturned so to speak.  It is not always easy. I think at some point, some yogis have turned over all the stones, the mind is not infinite.  And in that fact there should be hope for all.  

 Further, it is hard to discuss by going back and forth between Psychology and Buddhist definitions.
Psi

"leaving the door open" does not imply that everyone walks through it.
My point is that some aspects of the unconscious cannot be seen through contemplation. It is something I've heard from many different teachers. MCTB also says as much from what I remember. I've not heard one teacher claim that all psychological issues can be seen through contemplation. 

In the Buddhist religion like many others there are an embarrassing number of stories of teachers not confronting their issues. I mention teachers because they are far further along the path than most people will get. Even then examples can be quite extreme like alcoholism or sexual misconduct.

How could you not be aware of this ? Contemplating that might lead to answers.


Do not rely solely on contemplation to investigate the unconscious,



The "unconscious"  is vast and some of it is not addressed by contemplative techniques. It is not because you are bringing up parts of it that you should assume you are bringing up all of it.

In what I've read the "shadow" is one aspect that is not well suited to contemplation.


Agreed the eightfold path is going to help reduce rumination. But mindfulness reduces rumination whether you follow the other precepts or not. MBSR is a good example. Concentration techniques can pretty much stop rumination too it seems e.g. the "jhana junky"


Is it possible that somebody could use mindfulness skills to avoid worrying about something immoral ? The article you sent a link to answers - yes. So if you do not agree then please re-read that article. If those skills can be used for immoral action then they can certainly be used for spiritual bypassing.

The eightfold path is certainly worth following. The point is that it will not deal with all issues. So someone who believes is does is setting themselves up for spiritual bypassing. This is not a 100% guarantee but I think the risk is worth taking seriously.


I have not heard anyone who claims to be awakened claim that the path reaches an end point in this lifetime. What are you basing your conclusion that the mind is not infinite and all possibilities have been explored ?

Do you believe that in the last 2500 years nothing has been learnt ? Things like mahasi style noting are recent developments. 

I hope I'm not dashing your hope. Today there is a lot more information available to help progress more swiftly and smoothly than in the past - that gives me hope.

Best wishes.

My point is that some aspects of the unconscious cannot be seen through contemplation. It is something I've heard from many different teachers. MCTB also says as much from what I remember. I've not heard one teacher claim that all psychological issues can be seen through contemplation. 
Right, that is why there are other methods and approaches, agreedYes, I know all that, but that is their behaviour,their problem,  they were obviously not as far along as people believed, some prey on gullibility.  I do not drink, though I was an alcoholic years ago, I also do not perform sexual misconduct, so, not my problem.  If the Path is followed correctly and sincerely Alcoholism and Sexual Misconduct will not be actions within daily activities. It is just that simple.Well, maybe, maybe not.  Depends on the Shadow definition, as far as I can see it is speculation and hypothesis.  It may be true, there does seem to be an unconscious realm, but I see it as Phenomenon, levels of consciousness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_%28psychology%29


One can be Mindful and be a safecracker, but that is not Right Mindfulness, there is a distinction between Mindfulness and Right Mindfulness.
I do not know of any jhana junkies, do you?  And that may be an example of Samadhi, but not Samma Samadhi, there is a distinction here also.

Yes, that is why there is Right Mindfulness, one can use Everyday Mindfulness for anything, such as safely walking across a bust street.If that is your current view, then okay, no problem.  I do not see it that way, when the Noble Eightfold Path is fully understood and practiced, correctly.Well, from what I can tell, at least my mind is not infinite, though it has experienced infinity, I would not say it was infinite, it was just a sensation.


Of course not, I am a man of Science, among other things.Is it really?, Noticing phenomenon is not new.

Yes, perhaps, Cognitive Behavior Therapy seems to be going in the right direction, but it seems really similar to Buddhism anyway, but go figure, Mind is the Common Denominator.  Also, it may be sometime in the future a  Brave New World scenario, and we will all be on a government provided drug that has us all enlightened chemically.  Maybe they will even put it in the water supply, and tell us it will keep our teeth pretty.

Psi

[quote=
]Eightfold Path only leads to the cessation of Dukkha, so yes, if you are looking for something else you do have to look elsewhere, the Buddha did not teach Karate or piano, for instance.
Of course not, that seems to be a commonly repeated meme.
Here is another meme, No need to reinvent the wheel.
But to add, nobody that I have found has learned anymore about the cessation of Dukkha than what has already been presented.  There have been many great teachers that have different ways of explaining cessation of Dukkha, which is not surprising, as it is a personal path to trod.

Psi

"Yes, I know all that, but that is their behaviour,their problem,  they were obviously not as far along as people believed, some prey on gullibility.  I do not drink, though I was an alcoholic years ago, I also do not perform sexual misconduct, so, not my problem.  If the Path is followed correctly and sincerely Alcoholism and Sexual Misconduct will not be actions within daily activities. It is just that simple."

The immediate corollary to this is the No True Scotsman Fallacy, and therefore really is a conversational dead end with respect to the OP. In this case, you are generalizing your experience to the entire human race and expecting it to be a proper model of how it will work for others. I'm glad it has worked for you, but I suspect for most it does not, given history as the OP mentioned.

Hi Psi,

That is great that you have the eightfold path and that it answers all your questions regarding dukkha. 

I don't see that my point of view is bringing any value to you. I'm not interested in trying to change your view. 

Let's agree to disagree and see if anyone else chimes in.

I wish you the best with your practise.