Noah's_Conceptual_Sandbox - Discussion
Hi, Noah.
Thanks for starting a new thread on this topic.
I'm a product of the same dilemma you've just described. I have a couple of ideas on it from long experience:
1) Business people have stress. It's an inevitable part of living according to external influences and pressures. Stress has both negative and positive effects, however. If used as a motivator it can help. If seen as a "bad" thing it can overwhelm. I suggest relaxing into stress and being accepting of it - unless you just cannot get there. Which leads me to...
2) You're thinking the right way about the choices you face. I applaud your self-awareness. My perception of this is it's something you've developed by really working at your practice in various ways. This is going to serve you well over your lifetime. I wish I had done what you've done at your age! I didn't get to it until I was 20 years older than you are. Good for you!
3) Jhanas -- they can help you get to sleep and they can give you a break from stress. They're a great tool if used effectively, not just a sidetrack on the path.
Thanks for starting a new thread on this topic.
I'm a product of the same dilemma you've just described. I have a couple of ideas on it from long experience:
1) Business people have stress. It's an inevitable part of living according to external influences and pressures. Stress has both negative and positive effects, however. If used as a motivator it can help. If seen as a "bad" thing it can overwhelm. I suggest relaxing into stress and being accepting of it - unless you just cannot get there. Which leads me to...
2) You're thinking the right way about the choices you face. I applaud your self-awareness. My perception of this is it's something you've developed by really working at your practice in various ways. This is going to serve you well over your lifetime. I wish I had done what you've done at your age! I didn't get to it until I was 20 years older than you are. Good for you!
3) Jhanas -- they can help you get to sleep and they can give you a break from stress. They're a great tool if used effectively, not just a sidetrack on the path.
I remembered something else -- oddly enough it woke me out my sleep last night! 
One thing I always say to newer employees is that "People will keep giving you work. They don't know everything you are working on and if you just smile and say okay, they won't know you are being overworked. You have limits to what you can do and you are getting paid only so much money. You need to decide when and how, but you will have to say no at a certain point. You have to let them know that you have reached the limit of what you can do. You can ask them for how to prioritize the tasks you have been given, but you need to let them know that you can't do it all. Ironically, people will respect you if you say no -- and they will intentionally or unintentionally walk all over you if you do not."
Sometimes we rehearse a few scenarios, all of which end with them saying different sentences containing the word "no".
Hope this helps someone. I wish I was told this early in my professional working life.
One thing I always say to newer employees is that "People will keep giving you work. They don't know everything you are working on and if you just smile and say okay, they won't know you are being overworked. You have limits to what you can do and you are getting paid only so much money. You need to decide when and how, but you will have to say no at a certain point. You have to let them know that you have reached the limit of what you can do. You can ask them for how to prioritize the tasks you have been given, but you need to let them know that you can't do it all. Ironically, people will respect you if you say no -- and they will intentionally or unintentionally walk all over you if you do not."
Sometimes we rehearse a few scenarios, all of which end with them saying different sentences containing the word "no".
Hope this helps someone. I wish I was told this early in my professional working life.
shargrol:
I remembered something else -- oddly enough it woke me out my sleep last night!
One thing I always say to newer employees is that "People will keep giving you work. They don't know everything you are working on and if you just smile and say okay, they won't know you are being overworked. You have limits to what you can do and you are getting paid only so much money. You need to decide when and how, but you will have to say no at a certain point. You have to let them know that you have reached the limit of what you can do. You can ask them for how to prioritize the tasks you have been given, but you need to let them know that you can't do it all. Ironically, people will respect you if you say no -- and they will intentionally or unintentionally walk all over you if you do not."
Sometimes we rehearse a few scenarios, all of which end with them saying different sentences containing the word "no".
Hope this helps someone. I wish I was told this early in my professional working life.
One thing I always say to newer employees is that "People will keep giving you work. They don't know everything you are working on and if you just smile and say okay, they won't know you are being overworked. You have limits to what you can do and you are getting paid only so much money. You need to decide when and how, but you will have to say no at a certain point. You have to let them know that you have reached the limit of what you can do. You can ask them for how to prioritize the tasks you have been given, but you need to let them know that you can't do it all. Ironically, people will respect you if you say no -- and they will intentionally or unintentionally walk all over you if you do not."
Sometimes we rehearse a few scenarios, all of which end with them saying different sentences containing the word "no".
Hope this helps someone. I wish I was told this early in my professional working life.
Thanks Shargrol. It's funny to hear you write this. I received this exact piece of advice from: my friend, my dhamma teacher & my work manager last week. The trick appears to involve saying no or "pushing back" in tactful ways that get other people to do the work for you, shorten/simplify tasks, etc. My overall goal seems to be do as little work as possible to not get fired & to remain on a path to get promoted eventually. This is in the context that my job is not my passion & it is not directly a service profession.
JP Lewicke:
Very good points! And that's why I like to have these conversations in the sandbox space, to be able to say silly things & then learn from wiser perspectives.
It's tough territory & there's probably no "right" answers, but understanding the increasing complexity involved & being able to make decisions within that is useful. As is communicating about it. So yeah, a teacher who already has a partner and/or children who didn't sign up for a lifetime of enlightened frugality. There's definitely an ethical obligation there to consider those needs.
I'll have to ponder this & perhaps will share more thoughts later... Granted, I don't necessarily want to write about things that have no connection with my actual situation!
You may be in a somewhat unique position of having exposure to both mustachianism and the dharma before you've entered into any such commitments, since that allows you to ethically precommit to trying to live according to those standards. That's great, and I think everyone would benefit from incorporating both into their lives as soon as they hear about them. But people get into the dharma from a wide variety of life circumstances, and it might be worth considering both those circumstances and the likely effect of different social norm.
Very good points! And that's why I like to have these conversations in the sandbox space, to be able to say silly things & then learn from wiser perspectives.
It's tough territory & there's probably no "right" answers, but understanding the increasing complexity involved & being able to make decisions within that is useful. As is communicating about it. So yeah, a teacher who already has a partner and/or children who didn't sign up for a lifetime of enlightened frugality. There's definitely an ethical obligation there to consider those needs.
I'll have to ponder this & perhaps will share more thoughts later... Granted, I don't necessarily want to write about things that have no connection with my actual situation!
To put a finer point on it - why would the behaviors and social norms surrounding the teaching of dharma that made sense 2,500 years ago make sense now? The support system no longer exists. It's not socially or culturally acceptable today to beg for alms in exchange for teaching. People who do beg aren't very well respected, either, though some do beg full time seem to be able to survive. So... dharma teachers have to live on something. They either have to have another vocation, limiting the time they have to teach, or charge enough for their teaching to be able to live.
Maybe a few rich people can step up and become dharma sugar daddies ( i.e.; patrons)
Maybe a few rich people can step up and become dharma sugar daddies ( i.e.; patrons)
I have to add here that there seems to be a thought process among some folks who pick up Buddhism or Buddhist practices that is an interesting mapping of 2,500 year old social, economic and moral practices onto modern life. I'm not saying human nature has changed in 2,500 years because I doubt very much that it has. What has changed, however, is the construction of human society, the liberation of the individual, the Enlightenment (the 17th century European intellectual version, not the spiritual version), technology, and the organization of the economy and how human beings manage to get along financially, raise families and just plain survive.
It's fascinating. Not judging, just interested.
It's fascinating. Not judging, just interested.
It is interesting. Although, to be fair, there are plenty of modern peoples pointing out that most people simply suck with their money.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zms_oiHb7CY
Also, lots of non iron-age folks are waking up to the fact that their time & lifestyle can be designed way more efficiently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX3eJRwJqlc
And finally, there are all these super-modern TED talks about what happiness actually is.
(plug TED talk relating to how money doesn't buy happiness)
So while ideas about actually saving money that you don't need to spend, intending on not wasting one's whole life doing mandatory work & how money doesn't buy happiness (except up to a point) may have a firm basis in the Pali Canon, I do think lots of people are also discovering this on their own or from other sources or at least taking it from the Buddha & adapting it easily to modern audiences.
The question is, how does this relate to dharma teachers? It relates in the following way. Dharma is about systematizing happiness & non-clinging throughout every aspect of one's life. I don't know what "meditation teaching" is. If the purpose of "meditation" is to improve one's life, it is dharma.
The Buddha talked A LOT about handling 4 things: food, shelter, clothing & medicine. Modern people don't like these suttas, because they tell them how to live their life & modern people don't want to hear that shit from the Buddha. Instead, modern people look at sexy suttas like the Anapanasati, the Bahiya or the Satipattana. But it is all in there. Happy to add sutta references by request (but lazy at the outset).
The suttas essentially contain the spirit of automated lifestyle design, super-saving/early retirement & where mundane happiness comes from already. I would assume a dharma teacher would have some sense of or fluency with these things. If not, perhaps we could sign them up for the next Tim Ferris seminar
Edit: One more thing regarding the suttas - Where basic human rights & freedoms contrast with the words of the Buddha (i.e. saying silly shit about women's ability to get enlightened, be ordained or cause men not to get enlightened), I choose human rights. Also, if magical stuff is mentioned, I think it is right to take an agnostic atheist approach. However, I don't think the same rules needs to apply for the handling of material stuff. I'm just saying this because a typical point people make is that there are lots of things from the Suttas that don't even indirectly apply to us, which I disagree with. I think the main things that don't apply would be magical stuff (rebirth, powers) & devaluing humans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zms_oiHb7CY
Also, lots of non iron-age folks are waking up to the fact that their time & lifestyle can be designed way more efficiently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX3eJRwJqlc
And finally, there are all these super-modern TED talks about what happiness actually is.
(plug TED talk relating to how money doesn't buy happiness)
So while ideas about actually saving money that you don't need to spend, intending on not wasting one's whole life doing mandatory work & how money doesn't buy happiness (except up to a point) may have a firm basis in the Pali Canon, I do think lots of people are also discovering this on their own or from other sources or at least taking it from the Buddha & adapting it easily to modern audiences.
The question is, how does this relate to dharma teachers? It relates in the following way. Dharma is about systematizing happiness & non-clinging throughout every aspect of one's life. I don't know what "meditation teaching" is. If the purpose of "meditation" is to improve one's life, it is dharma.
The Buddha talked A LOT about handling 4 things: food, shelter, clothing & medicine. Modern people don't like these suttas, because they tell them how to live their life & modern people don't want to hear that shit from the Buddha. Instead, modern people look at sexy suttas like the Anapanasati, the Bahiya or the Satipattana. But it is all in there. Happy to add sutta references by request (but lazy at the outset).
The suttas essentially contain the spirit of automated lifestyle design, super-saving/early retirement & where mundane happiness comes from already. I would assume a dharma teacher would have some sense of or fluency with these things. If not, perhaps we could sign them up for the next Tim Ferris seminar
Edit: One more thing regarding the suttas - Where basic human rights & freedoms contrast with the words of the Buddha (i.e. saying silly shit about women's ability to get enlightened, be ordained or cause men not to get enlightened), I choose human rights. Also, if magical stuff is mentioned, I think it is right to take an agnostic atheist approach. However, I don't think the same rules needs to apply for the handling of material stuff. I'm just saying this because a typical point people make is that there are lots of things from the Suttas that don't even indirectly apply to us, which I disagree with. I think the main things that don't apply would be magical stuff (rebirth, powers) & devaluing humans.
Noah D:
The Buddha talked A LOT about handling 4 things: food, shelter, clothing & medicine. Modern people don't like these suttas, because they tell them how to live their life & modern people don't want to hear that shit from the Buddha. Instead, modern people look at sexy suttas like the Anapanasati, the Bahiya or the Satipattana. But it is all in there. Happy to add sutta references by request (but lazy at the outset).
The suttas essentially contain the spirit of automated lifestyle design, super-saving/early retirement & where mundane happiness comes from already. I would assume a dharma teacher would have some sense of or fluency with these things. If not, perhaps we could sign them up for the next Tim Ferris seminar
Edit: One more thing regarding the suttas - Where basic human rights & freedoms contrast with the words of the Buddha (i.e. saying silly shit about women's ability to get enlightened, be ordained or cause men not to get enlightened), I choose human rights. Also, if magical stuff is mentioned, I think it is right to take an agnostic atheist approach. However, I don't think the same rules needs to apply for the handling of material stuff. I'm just saying this because a typical point people make is that there are lots of things from the Suttas that don't even indirectly apply to us, which I disagree with. I think the main things that don't apply would be magical stuff (rebirth, powers) & devaluing humans.
The suttas essentially contain the spirit of automated lifestyle design, super-saving/early retirement & where mundane happiness comes from already. I would assume a dharma teacher would have some sense of or fluency with these things. If not, perhaps we could sign them up for the next Tim Ferris seminar
Edit: One more thing regarding the suttas - Where basic human rights & freedoms contrast with the words of the Buddha (i.e. saying silly shit about women's ability to get enlightened, be ordained or cause men not to get enlightened), I choose human rights. Also, if magical stuff is mentioned, I think it is right to take an agnostic atheist approach. However, I don't think the same rules needs to apply for the handling of material stuff. I'm just saying this because a typical point people make is that there are lots of things from the Suttas that don't even indirectly apply to us, which I disagree with. I think the main things that don't apply would be magical stuff (rebirth, powers) & devaluing humans.
aloha noah,
I have heard you say before that the buddha approved of saving up and taking care of oneself financially, and that this is in the literature. I have read a lot of suttas and don't recall anything like what you speak of. Please provide the sutta references, if you can. What references there were to food, shelter and "medical requisites" (unspecified) were in terms of minimalism: patched clothes, deserted huts, stale food and basic medicines begged from householders when required. The gross excesses of modern materialist culture are incompatible with the practice of buddhism... in my view. "There is no north and south in the dhamma" or male and female either.
The buddha approved of women obtaining the dhamma; what "silly shit" are you referring to? What "magical stuff (rebirth, powers)"? We are reborn every moment; every past life is our own past life. I find the pali canon readily applicable to contemporary life.
"Devaluing humans"? In fact, buddhism regards human birth as rare and wonderful. Many people - and most religions other than buddhism - are anthropocentric. To them, the world and all its creatures were given by god to humanity to be their property to be used as they saw fit, without regard for the welfare of the creatures themselves, or for the web of life on which all depend. Buddhism regards all living being(s) to be one web of interrelationship. If contemporary critics of buddhism feel that this devalues humans, they need not be pandered to. Enlightened beings of any religion or culture must understand that "we are the world," or we all perish.
The buddha did not encourage materialism, an extreme position; nor was he an idealist. The dhamma is not designed to excuse selfishness or encourage the delusion that it is appropriate to indulge oneself in desires which lead to suffering.
I will grant that going into homelessness nowadays is not feasible for the spiritual person, the way homelessness is allowed to exist in america. But any teacher of the dharma, if not every practicioner, should be able to live simply and frugally, and be an example of such living. The principle of homelessness applies, though. Which is becoming non-attached to possession. "My" objects of desire and tools do more than anything else to create "me," or "I" as subject. If I don't want things and don't want to get things for later, I can forget myself and be happy, content. To teach that is to be that.
There is a sufi story about mullah nasrudin, who was the magistrate of a small market town. A woman came to him while he was holding court, and she asked him to tell her son to stop eating sugar. He told her to return in three days. When she came back, he turnded to the boy and said, "stop eating sugar." The mother asked him why this pronouncement took him three days; the mullah replied that he himself had to first stop eating sugar. The buddha dhamma essentially asks us to give up all selfish desires, that is, to stop eating sugar. (Sukkha means "sweet" and dukkha is its opposite.) For our own good.
Anyone who feels called to teach the buddha dhamma ought to be committed to not eating sugar, in my view, as a necessary but not sufficient condition. If you are a lay teacher, provide your own living; if a monastic, accept reduced comforts and the inability to support a family on donations. In my view.
All a person really needs is a handful of grains per day.
terry
"Customs become diluted year after year.
Both the noble and the common decline.
The human mind grows fragile with time;
the ancestral way becomes fainter day by day.
Teachers can’t see past the name of their school;
students enable their teachers’ narrow-mindedness.
They are glued to each other, unwilling to change.
If the purpose of the dharma were to establish schools,
sages would have done so long ago.
Now that people have declared their schools,
whom on earth should I join?
Everyone, shut your mouth
and listen!
A discourse should have a beginning.
Let me begin with the one on Vulture Peak.
The Buddha is the deva of devas.
Who can criticize him?
Five hundred years after the Buddha passed away,
people gathered two or three volumes of his teaching.
Bodhisattva Nagarjuna came to the world
and wrote a treatise explaining emptiness.
He said he was simply called to do so.
Who is right and who is wrong?
The Baime Monastery was first founded
after the buddha dharma moved eastward.
Our master Bodhidharma came from afar.
It was then that all teachings found their source.
Zen flourished in Great Tang.
Never had it been so magnificent.
Guiding the assembly and correcting the crowd,
each teacher was a lion in dharma.
Although sudden and gradual teachings emerged,
there were not yet Southern and Northern Schools.
In the later dynasty of Song,
the white jewel began to be marred.
The Five Schools exposed their spearheads;
the Eight Schools competed with one another.
Their influences spread far and wide,
impossible to stop.
Then came our Eihei Dogen,
a true pioneer in the ancestral domain.
He carried Taibo’s seal of approval.
His voice resounded like thunder throughout this country.
Vigorous was his work of spreading dharma,
so vigorous that it overshadowed
other dragons and elephants.
Even hermits did not miss being illuminated.
He also guided those living on remote islands.
He eliminated what should be eliminated,
offered what should be offered.
Since the master left this land of Shinto deities,
how many years have passed?
Thornbushes grow around high halls,
fragrant flowers wither in the weeds.
Vulgar songs fill the days.
Who will expound the luminous teaching?
Ah, I, a humble one have encountered this era.
When a great house is about to crumble,
a stick cannot keep it from falling.
Unable to sleep on a clear night,
I toss in bed, chanting this poem.”
~ryokan
from "unborn; the life and teachings of zen master bankei":
"If we compare the duties of a Buddhist priest with those of a samurai, we find that in some respects the duties of a samurai are easier to perform. Those who leave home to become priests usually begin their studies at an early age. Their practice takes them all over the country, even overseas to other lands. Though they may have some destination in mind, they never know what will be waiting for them when they arrive. They carry no food or money with them on their pilgrimages, and wherever they go, they find very little in the way of comfort. If someone offers them shelter while they're on the road, they accept it gratefully, regarding it as a dispensation be stowed on them by the Buddhas. When there is no such shelter, they lie down in the fields or in the mountains. If they run out of food, they take their bowl and beg for some. Often no alms are given, so they must go with an empty stomach. As a rule, their practice is carried on in a state of perpetual hunger. Occasionally someone may give them nice lodgings. They are deeply grateful and filled with a feeling of indebtedness for this expression of the Buddhas' favor.
It is always interesting to see how some who follow Buddhism have such romatic notions of the dharma and how its followers should live. One of the deepest connections I have with Buddhism is its practicality. It has adapted into many cultures and has taken many forms. It's not a belief system but a practical prescription for waking up to what we are.
Just my humble opinion...
Just my humble opinion...
My feeling is that if someone is not tempted to burn all their books/library at various times during their life of practicing, then they really are not thinking critically about the words that get said/written. Likewise, if someone is not tempted to quit practicing at various times, then they really aren't practicing well.
I say both of those statements in jest, but there is enough truth in those statements to make it funny!
I say both of those statements in jest, but there is enough truth in those statements to make it funny!
8.15
*treat "technical paths" with heavy air quotes please
vipassana 1
pre path: noting or investigating or contemplating, heavily influenced by nanas
vipassana 2
post technical 1st path: jhanas arise naturally during investigation
vipassana 3
post technical 2nd path: fractals nanas arise during investigation, leading to indirect peripheral shifts to walking around perception
vipassana 4
post technical 4th path: backdrop/ground begins to take prevalance, leading to direct shifts to walking around perception
vipassana 5
post 'going past the attentional movement': within the non-attending, certain lingering structures (direct & conceptually) are seen through with extra investigation
vipassana 6
post 'the structures have been seen through': with no fuel for the clinging (as far as I can tell), the 'shell' of habits (particularly animal impulses) remains, these need to be soaked further in the vipassna (which is now automatically ocurring) ---> the only volitional action to do this is a gentle pointing of the metacognition (no extra work with the attention muscle)
ex of vipassana 6: fight or flight system continues to "jolt", even though nonduality is in place, the attention does not attend, the deep emotional causes have been seen thru, the conceptual frameworks have been seen through... thus the reptile brain just needs to gently get misted by the gains for some time
*treat "technical paths" with heavy air quotes please
vipassana 1
pre path: noting or investigating or contemplating, heavily influenced by nanas
vipassana 2
post technical 1st path: jhanas arise naturally during investigation
vipassana 3
post technical 2nd path: fractals nanas arise during investigation, leading to indirect peripheral shifts to walking around perception
vipassana 4
post technical 4th path: backdrop/ground begins to take prevalance, leading to direct shifts to walking around perception
vipassana 5
post 'going past the attentional movement': within the non-attending, certain lingering structures (direct & conceptually) are seen through with extra investigation
vipassana 6
post 'the structures have been seen through': with no fuel for the clinging (as far as I can tell), the 'shell' of habits (particularly animal impulses) remains, these need to be soaked further in the vipassna (which is now automatically ocurring) ---> the only volitional action to do this is a gentle pointing of the metacognition (no extra work with the attention muscle)
ex of vipassana 6: fight or flight system continues to "jolt", even though nonduality is in place, the attention does not attend, the deep emotional causes have been seen thru, the conceptual frameworks have been seen through... thus the reptile brain just needs to gently get misted by the gains for some time
Last thought and I'll stop hijacking your thread
That said, I don't think all yoginis & yogis are always just using different words for the same thing. That is an overgeneralization that veteran teachers revert to (in my observation). Rather, it is the case that some people get vastly farther than others along the path. Furthermore, it is the case that there are individuals who exhibit signs of true ten fetter progress (typically non-charismatic, anonymous, ordained individuals). This is simply not the same thing as someone who has perfected centerless, nondual perception in all waking hours. Furthermore, that is not the same thing as someone who has dualistic direct perception, but feels an intuitive sense of doneness, grokking of dependent origination & in their body knows they are "out of samsara." As another example, none of these are the same as somone who has centerless, nondual perception in all waking hours, as well as awakened lucidity in dreamless sleep ever night (+ dream sleep), has seen death as an empty construction, has seen the material world as an empty construction, etc.
In my opinion there are truly, unique axes as well as unique levels of development along them (rather than "its all one thing with different cultural lenses).
Completely agree that the various descriptions are not "different words for the same thing" - all descriptions are misleading, since enlightenment is ineffable, and most of them are plain wrong, since most people who claim to be enlightened aren't. It's probably true that there are many axes of development (perhaps infinitely many), and maybe those axes themselves each go infinitely deep - but this does not need to conflict with the idea of a single path. Perhaps the path is very different for different individuals, and so requires different depths of training in different axes. Perhaps 3th path for one person requires sitting alone in a forest for 30 years, for another requires a decade of dedicated pseudo-monastic conditioning, and for a third requires deep engagement with charitable works for a few years - maybe the notion of "abandoning" fetters is flexible enough to permit such variation. Perhaps the four path model refers to 4 waypoints within a hyper-dimensional system, which despite appearing very different in their different manifestations, are real and equivalent for different individuals. Perhaps an anonymous monastic who has suceeded in destroying all emotion and all attachment to life has gone very far along one particular confluence of axes, but has neglected some others, and yet in some sense this can be considered equivalent to someone who has never done a day of retreat but who has dedicated their life to skillful action in seeking an end to craving - and that both are equivalent to infinitely many other possible variations on a theme, but that there and still infinitely many more ways to succumb to Mara and fail to develop sufficiently on some axis (or fail to develop the necessary hyper-dimensional-balance of axes-development) and stay lost in samsara.
Noah D:
That said, I don't think all yoginis & yogis are always just using different words for the same thing. That is an overgeneralization that veteran teachers revert to (in my observation). Rather, it is the case that some people get vastly farther than others along the path. Furthermore, it is the case that there are individuals who exhibit signs of true ten fetter progress (typically non-charismatic, anonymous, ordained individuals). This is simply not the same thing as someone who has perfected centerless, nondual perception in all waking hours. Furthermore, that is not the same thing as someone who has dualistic direct perception, but feels an intuitive sense of doneness, grokking of dependent origination & in their body knows they are "out of samsara." As another example, none of these are the same as somone who has centerless, nondual perception in all waking hours, as well as awakened lucidity in dreamless sleep ever night (+ dream sleep), has seen death as an empty construction, has seen the material world as an empty construction, etc.
In my opinion there are truly, unique axes as well as unique levels of development along them (rather than "its all one thing with different cultural lenses).
Completely agree that the various descriptions are not "different words for the same thing" - all descriptions are misleading, since enlightenment is ineffable, and most of them are plain wrong, since most people who claim to be enlightened aren't. It's probably true that there are many axes of development (perhaps infinitely many), and maybe those axes themselves each go infinitely deep - but this does not need to conflict with the idea of a single path. Perhaps the path is very different for different individuals, and so requires different depths of training in different axes. Perhaps 3th path for one person requires sitting alone in a forest for 30 years, for another requires a decade of dedicated pseudo-monastic conditioning, and for a third requires deep engagement with charitable works for a few years - maybe the notion of "abandoning" fetters is flexible enough to permit such variation. Perhaps the four path model refers to 4 waypoints within a hyper-dimensional system, which despite appearing very different in their different manifestations, are real and equivalent for different individuals. Perhaps an anonymous monastic who has suceeded in destroying all emotion and all attachment to life has gone very far along one particular confluence of axes, but has neglected some others, and yet in some sense this can be considered equivalent to someone who has never done a day of retreat but who has dedicated their life to skillful action in seeking an end to craving - and that both are equivalent to infinitely many other possible variations on a theme, but that there and still infinitely many more ways to succumb to Mara and fail to develop sufficiently on some axis (or fail to develop the necessary hyper-dimensional-balance of axes-development) and stay lost in samsara.
Noah D:
Shargrol:
Yeah. But it also simultaneously intuits as "nothing is being looked at" & "the looking itself is nothing" & "all of this arises & passes back into nothing" & "there is no difference between these nothings."
I think so.
I guess "ideas", "people" & any relationship between the two is merely appearances.
Out of curiosity, ever get the "nothing looked" intuition?
Yeah. But it also simultaneously intuits as "nothing is being looked at" & "the looking itself is nothing" & "all of this arises & passes back into nothing" & "there is no difference between these nothings."
Or maybe the, "looking already looked, what looked is beyond ever knowing. Not ever." intuition.?
I think so.
Or maybe "people don't have ideas, ideas have people" intuition.
I guess "ideas", "people" & any relationship between the two is merely appearances.
So for what it's worth, I'm kind of pointing toward something like "mind moments", so the idea that there is something "simultaneous" happening is a little bit of a confusion (fusing together) for this kind of pointing...
In general, there is a lot of value in getting the mind sensitive and clear enough to see the mind moments that happens when questions are asked that short-circuit duality. So with the "look at mind... what looks at mind?" question, when the mind looks at mind for a moment it sees not-a-thingness for a millisecond. There is a mind moment of "the looking itself is nothing" , which is followed by a self-freakout which usually manifests as blanking out or the mind moment of "nothing is being looked at", followed by a renormalization process or the mind moments of ""all of this arises & passes back into nothing" and "there is no difference between these nothings."
The point is to really have the impact of seeing not-a-thingness leave it's mark on the mind. You can't sustain the looking at nothingness (because the sense of self is threatened, freaks out and goes blank, then has a bunch of rationalizing thoughts), so the only approach is try to look more frequently.during practice.
Rock on!
8.30
"the simulation"
modifying the simulation = exercising willpower/volition
everyone is always modifying the simulation (albeit unconsciously)
yet the dharma tends to portray "everyone" as dainty, wounded beings needing compassionate triage
that hyper-compassionate view can obscure other truths
there are different types of modifications one can make
some occur quickly (i.e. siddhis)
other occur slowly (i.e. therapy, behavior mod)
some modify other people
some modify the environment
some modify nature
Mostly I am seeing that this reality is in some ways much "colder" & more "chaotic" than I thought
My practice of mental science/law of attraction has trained me to assume there are perfect templates emerging from spirit, filtering through into this realm
**To be clear, this is not about the obscuration of control & seeking satisfaction in conditioned phenomena**
Rather, even after that has been seen through, there may not be clarity on the fundamental elements which make up this VR we are in
Otherwise, we would all be Buddhas (not arahants)
Thus, there can be no suffering nor sense of individual control - yet still not be full perspective on exactly what is going on with regards to willpower
This is a chaotic system & humans are players in it with varying degrees of consciousness & that is a fact
There is no escape from the interaction between different intention-streams in real time
And, it is not about ethics in the relative sense
There are rule sets which don't cooperate with the human perspective
I'll stop before I dig myself into a hole here , but needless to say - being deeply OK with this chaos after confronting it is a deeper level of surrender than correcting dualistic perception & healing the attachment system
"the simulation"
modifying the simulation = exercising willpower/volition
everyone is always modifying the simulation (albeit unconsciously)
yet the dharma tends to portray "everyone" as dainty, wounded beings needing compassionate triage
that hyper-compassionate view can obscure other truths
there are different types of modifications one can make
some occur quickly (i.e. siddhis)
other occur slowly (i.e. therapy, behavior mod)
some modify other people
some modify the environment
some modify nature
Mostly I am seeing that this reality is in some ways much "colder" & more "chaotic" than I thought
My practice of mental science/law of attraction has trained me to assume there are perfect templates emerging from spirit, filtering through into this realm
**To be clear, this is not about the obscuration of control & seeking satisfaction in conditioned phenomena**
Rather, even after that has been seen through, there may not be clarity on the fundamental elements which make up this VR we are in
Otherwise, we would all be Buddhas (not arahants)
Thus, there can be no suffering nor sense of individual control - yet still not be full perspective on exactly what is going on with regards to willpower
This is a chaotic system & humans are players in it with varying degrees of consciousness & that is a fact
There is no escape from the interaction between different intention-streams in real time
And, it is not about ethics in the relative sense
There are rule sets which don't cooperate with the human perspective
I'll stop before I dig myself into a hole here
, but needless to say - being deeply OK with this chaos after confronting it is a deeper level of surrender than correcting dualistic perception & healing the attachment system
Noah D:
8.23
So there was only the thrill of sensing the non-solidity of all without border - at a deeper level
then I felt a type of ecstatic "high" that I've associated perhaps with MDMA or LSD in the past -- felt like I was dropped deep into a seat that was on a swing that was plunging down into the earth & then swooshing back up again with some bouyancy but without too much control
Everything seems magical, like little cells are swimming everywhere, in me, through me, around me, as me at many different points.
So there was only the thrill of sensing the non-solidity of all without border - at a deeper level
then I felt a type of ecstatic "high" that I've associated perhaps with MDMA or LSD in the past -- felt like I was dropped deep into a seat that was on a swing that was plunging down into the earth & then swooshing back up again with some bouyancy but without too much control
Everything seems magical, like little cells are swimming everywhere, in me, through me, around me, as me at many different points.
Noah D:
8.24
Past life stuff coming up maybe? Or I'm going nuts lol.
Past life stuff coming up maybe? Or I'm going nuts lol.
You're killing it Noah - getting it done!
Chris Marti:
I'll add that I think the opposite, non romantic perspective seems silly - that ancient Pali writings say absolutely nothing valid about how to live ones life & that their only practical contribution is insights into the nature of subtle selfing processes. Of the several problems with this view, one is the idea that the contents of ones life at a coarse level have no effect on ones ability to attain to these subtle insights. Another is that these subtle insights do not compel the yogi to make certain coarse level behavioral decisions as an expression of them. Things like the handling of resources are conducive to insight at the top of the funnel, an expression of insight at the bottom.
Noah, I don't actually happen to think there is no wisdom in the suttas. I do think, however, that they represent a 2,500 year old oral tradition that lays out a very practical guide to awakening and to proper living in that time. To take even the buddhist scriptures literally is a form of fundamentalism. I think we need to judge these things for ourselves in the context of our own lives, culture and society, and then apply them as best we can in consideration of all those factors. This means we have to figure out what right speech, right livelihood, and so on, are in our own lives, right now. Some of what is in the suttas is very relevant to our time. Some is not. You, yourself, made this very same point not very long ago. Here's a practical example: I'm simply not going to give up my my career, my family, my house and my car so that I can live in alignment with a certain series of suttas from long, long ago written for a different time and for a very, very different social, political and economic environment. Also, keep in mind that people in diffrerent stages of their lives inevitably have different views. You're lucky to have come to buddhism at an much earlier age than someone like me. That gives you a certain freedom of choice and operation that others may not have.
YMMV, and I fully respect the individual choices people make.
One could completely remove themselves from this situation and find a remote area to live off the land. This to me, however, would be denial of the larger problem. Finding a way to live skillfully within modern society will always be a give and take.
As Chris says above, "...we have to figure out what right speech, right livelihood, and so on, are in our own lives, right now."
Nick O:
I was cruising down an interstate yesterday in a service truck when my coworker mentioned something about how he found it difficult to navigate modern day life within the moral ideals of Buddhism. As I gazed down the multilane freeway of fast moving traffic, I reflected on that; We drive these heavy metalic machines over millions of miles of paved wilderness, spewing toxic exhaust in our wake past fields of factory agriculture that have destroyed countless square miles of forest. All for our own convenience and to keep up with our race's burgeoning growth. I had a deep moment of accepting being part of that. I live a simple life and work in solar energy, but even still, I depend on the agriculture of the Sacramento Valley and that freeway to deliver nourishment and goods to my small Sierra foothill town. Indeed, a very different situation from when the suttas were written.
One could completely remove themselves from this situation and find a remote area to live off the land. This to me, however, would be denial of the larger problem. Finding a way to live skillfully within modern society will always be a give and take.
As Chris says above, "...we have to figure out what right speech, right livelihood, and so on, are in our own lives, right now."
aloha nick,
Wherever you feel most comfortable. (laughs)
For many years I had a bumper sticker on my truck which read: "life's a beach, and then you dive". We have some of the best diving (and fishing, marlin "granders" and the like) in the world off of the kona coast, where the ocean can be 1000' deep a quarter mile off shore. I've scuba dove the whole length of the coast, 100s of times; it's like being a fish. And the ocean creatures are fantastic; I've heard whales sing, seen sharks, octopi, manta rays, moray eels... oddly, now that I think of it, by far the most fantastic colors on sea cretures show up at night under lights.
Don't find yourself in a position a decade or two from now where you regret not taking the option to 'cast your fate to the winds' and seek happiness on your own terms, and live as free a life as you can. Romantics do that, you know. (Tramps like us, eh?)
In the chuang tzu, the eponymous hero tells a story about a snake and a millipede. The snake asks the millipede how he manages so many legs, and the insect replies, "I don't manage them. If I try to manage them they go all awry and I stumble. If I just move along naturally they appear to manage themselves without thought." Chuang tzu is saying that the right Way is not a matter of thought, more of imulse and opportunity, sincerity and self-effacement, "acting non-acting." The 'true human' is like a wound crossbow, ready to burst into activity at any moment. Chuang-tzu also tells stories about himself. One time he was fishing in the river near his rural home and two ministers came from the local monarch with papers asking him to rule the kingdom for them. Chuang tzu asked them if they knew of the great turtle which whose shell was gilded and kept on an altar and worshipped in a special temple. They did. He asked, do you think the turtle was happy to be sacrifced and gilded and kept on display for 500 years, or would he have been happier rooting around in the mud of this river? They replied the animal would no doubt be happier living in the river than dead in the temple. Then, said the taoist, leave me to my fishing.
Finding a place to hang on to your sanity in this world is crazy difficult, you want to cut yourself a lot of slack, without losing your focus. Don't get used to evil, it should always rub and chafe.
terry
THE FLIGHT OF LIN HUI
(the way of chuang tzu trans merton)
Lin Hui of Kia took to flight.
Pursued by enemies,
He threw away the precious jade
Symbol of his rank
And took his infant child on his back.
Why did he take the child
And leave the jade,
Which was worth a small fortune,
Whereas the child, if sold,
Would only bring him a paltry sum?
Lin Hui said:
"My bond with the jade symbol
And with my office
Was the bond of self-interest.
My bond with the child
Was the bond of Tao.
"Where self-interest is the bond,
The friendship is dissolved
When calamity comes.
Where Tao is the bond,
Friendship is made perfect
By calamity.
"The friendship of wise men
Is tasteless as water.
The friendship of fools
Is sweet as wine.
But the tastelessness of the wise
Brings true affection
And the savor of fools' company
Ends in hatred."
[xx. 5.]
terry:
[quote= Don't find yourself in a position a decade or two from now where you regret not taking the option to 'cast your fate to the winds' and seek happiness on your own terms, and live as free a life as you can. Romantics do that, you know. (Tramps like us, eh?)
]
]
Oh I've done plenty of years of living life "freely". Don't you worry!
I've found that true freedom lies in routine.
No regrets here.
Nick O:
terry:
[quote= Don't find yourself in a position a decade or two from now where you regret not taking the option to 'cast your fate to the winds' and seek happiness on your own terms, and live as free a life as you can. Romantics do that, you know. (Tramps like us, eh?)
]
]
I've found that true freedom lies in routine.
No regrets here.
aloha nick,
No worries, bra.
Even so, the assertion that "true freedom lies in routine" may be worth some examination.
In my work, fabricating silver jewelry from sheets and wires, I maintain a balance of routine and creative tasks. I look at the routine ones like the zen tea ceremony, trying to perfect each movement, each stoke of the file or saw, like prince hui's cook. Each act, despite being repetitive, is slightly different and capable of refinement. The joy here is that the mind is entirely left behind, and the perfecting of the effort merges with the effort itself, and the effected product. Then there is creative work. The mind is set free and the hands follow. The mind becomes as instrumental as the hands. Perhaps it is "routine creativity" in the sense of what we would call "routine emergencies" in the ER. (There comes a point, early or late, where emergencies no longer make the blood quicken. And creativity also becomes familiar.)
I'm reading a fascinating book by peter sloterdijk called "the critique of cynical reason" and in it he shows a picture of the sign over the gate into auschwitz, "arbeit macht frei" or "labor makes you free." And there is the sign on the cia's entrance, cut in stone: "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" with its echo of "macht frei." Can't get much more reified than to cut it in stone. "Freedom" as a thing, a possession, something to be desired, fought over, hoarded and kept for oneself. (Another nice quote from sloterdijk's book, he gives as a "lutheran saying" the following: "A timid arse rarely gives forth with a joyful fart.")
I find routine can be a danger, in the pursuit of mindfulness. I change up my meditation routines regularly, keeping them fresh, interesting and fun. Attachment to routine is practically a given in human (or sentient) nature. We can use the tendency to form habits for training purposes, sure; but there are dangers. Every habit is attachment itself. Rather like learning wisdom from words: sooner or later the words themselves become obstacles to realization.
One reason it is so difficult to give advice to a group is that people are at very different positions, and those change. There is a story of a wise man whose apprentice was heading off on a long journey and wanted advice. The master had the disciple sew two small pockets, in which he put two small scrolls. The disciple was told to read the right hand one if he was achieving great success, and the left hand one if he were in despair. When the disciple had recourse to the messages in due time, he found the right-hand one said, "You are only a speck in the infinitude of space" and the left one said, "you yourself are the source of divine power and cannot be hurt or defeated." Through impermanence right and wrong themselves interchange; sometimes routine is good and sometimes it isn't.
I'm not disagreeing. It can be quite magical at times how the spirit can be set free while body-mind is involved in routine.
terry
from 'the way of chuang tzu' trans merton:
CUTTING UP AN OX
Prince Wen Hui's cook Was cutting up an ox. Out went a hand,
Down went a shoulder,
He planted a foot,
He pressed with a knee,
The ox fell apart
With a whisper,
The bright cleaver murmured
Like a gentle wind.
Rhythm! Timing!
Like a sacred dance,
Like "The Mulberry Grove,"
Like ancient harmonies!
"Good work!" the Prince exclaimed,
"Your method is faultless!"
"Method?" said the cook
Laying aside his cleaver,
"What I follow is Tao
Beyond all methods!
"When I first began
To cut up oxen
I would see before me
The whole ox
All in one mass.
"After three years
I no longer saw this mass.
I saw the distinctions.
"But now, I see nothing
With the eye. My whole being
Apprehends.
My senses are idle. The spirit
Free to work without plan
Follows its own instinct
Guided by natural line,
By the secret opening, the hidden space,
My cleaver finds its own way.
I cut through no joint, chop no bone.
"A good cook needs a new chopper
Once a year - he cuts.
A poor cook needs a new one
Every month - he hacks!
"I have used this same cleaver
Nineteen years.
It has cut up
A thousand oxen.
Its edge is as keen
As if newly sharpened.
"There are spaces in the joints;
The blade is thin and keen:
When this thinness
Finds that space
There is all the room you need!
It goes like a breeze!
Hence I have this cleaver nineteen years
As if newly sharpened!
"True, there are sometimes
Tough joints. I feel them coming,
I slow down, I watch closely,
Hold back, barely move the blade,
And whump! the part falls away
Landing like a clod of earth.
"Then I withdraw the blade,
I stand still
And let the joy of the work
Sink in.
I clean the blade
And put it away."
Prince Wan Hui said,
"This is it! My cook has shown me
How I ought to live
My own life!''
[iii. 2.]
Chris Marti:
It is always interesting to see how some who follow Buddhism have such romatic notions of the dharma and how its followers should live. One of the deepest connections I have with Buddhism is its practicality. It has adapted into many cultures and has taken many forms. It's not a belief system but a practical prescription for waking up to what we are.
Just my humble opinion...
Just my humble opinion...
aloha chris,
As this is a reply to me, I suppose it is my "romantic notions" that you refer to.
You might help me by spelling out what you think is a "romantic notion" in what I said.
I know you love confrontation (smile). I actually thought your comment was funny.
mahalos, terry
T DC:
Who am I to look at his books and say, "well you could probably downgrade your appartment, I think you should charge less".
You are an intelligent, analytic human being with more access to basic information (cost of living data, pricing for food/shelter/clothing/medicine, strategies for the reduction of those items. etc) than any prior generation. You can observe what it costs to live a decent lifestyle in a given area. By "decent", I mean one in which you can connect with positive emotion to other human beings, put enough nutrients in your body, wear clean well-fitting clothing, have creative & sexual outlets, have fun hobbies that don't cost that much money, get out doors regularly, etc. It's not that hard to actually judge someone's spending & be able to say "yeah, you probably could live with less square footage & pay exponentially less" or "yeah, you probably should sell your mortgage & go back to renting since home ownership isn't right for you since you aren't handy & your area has high housing prices."
I'm with you there man, I have the ablity, but do I have the right? That's really the question.
I am grateful to live in the "free" world
10.6
*I wrote a bunch of stream of consciousness on different topics here. Too lazy to organize.
"Not my problem" is my new best friend Tentatively, I have solved my insomnia through this attitude. The short explanation is that I stopped getting stressed out. The long is that I have been processing the impressions of the day in my head as I go to sleep. Having these vibrations bouncing around prevented me from sleep. Realizing that most of these issues are actually unrelated to my personal responsibility to myself is a solve.
So, my responsibility is essentially to provide myself food, shelter, clothing & medicine, now & in the future. It is also to ensure that I don't die from illness, injury, excess cold, excess heat, thirst or hunger. I have no dependents as of now. My job is simply a means to provide those things for myself.
Sleep is more pressing to those survival needs than my job is. Insomnia is bad for the brain, bad for the body. When I let myself have insomnia because I am trying to accomplish more at my job or in my daily life, I am essentially moving too high on Maslow's heirarchy of needs. The very mechanism through which I am attempting to accomplish the higher, career needs is undermining the lower, physical survival needs.
I started reading the Mr. Money Mustache blog, as well as some of Vinay Gupta's resilience stuff. The idea for MMM is that if you can save/invest 25 times your living expenses for one year, you can retire & live off of the accrued interest from your investments. The goal is to reduce your living expenses & increase your satisfaction with the money you do spend. This is *remarkably* compatible with what I have learned from Dhammarato & with the teaching on renunciation in general.
It has not been until recently that I would have been ready to hear something like this. Learning to be happy through living off of less simply did not make sense to me before I cleared a ton of 'shit' out of my 'energy system' (or however you want to frame it). But now, the very participation in the moment is inherently pleasurable or complete, so it makes perfect sense to simplify the contents & patterns of those moments.
Zooming out a little more, I see more parallels with what has happened with the seattle pragmatic group & with these resilience/independence strategies. It is about removing centralization, heirarchy, monetization, consumerism, rigid rules & filters, while increasing efficiency, honesty, direct mechanisms, peer-contribution, mutual gains & individual independence. I have noticed in a short time it is possible to facilitate quite a few different dharma groups in various cities & countries. After a few short weeks, people begin to report progress in their practice.
There is obvious benefit to a group of cheerleading dharma friends getting together to talk openly about practice, being technique/phenomenlogy driven, etc. There is obvious benefit to learning to save enough to live off of indefinitely, learning to live a healthier lifestyle, etc. Vinay Gupta has some cool stuff like hexayurts (a cheap, permanent, weather-proof structure that he claims can solve the world's housing crisis) & etherium (a type of block-chain currency that he helped create which is now fairly popular). The interesting thing about these things is that they do not require governments or corporations to run. People can bootstrap them to get them going. They both relate to survival. I see the formation of grassroots sanghas, as well as the connection between grassroots sanghas, as belonging to a similar vein: open source dharma for the entire world in a way that avoids common pitfalls (it doesn't cost money, there's no teacher).
In spite of all this newfound inspiration, I'm mostly just learning to let things be. I don't need to do more, I need to do less. It's not my job to save the world, it's my job to keep this mind-body going & that's about it. The rest is just extra software programs I've installed over time. Most of it's malware anyway. Nothing to do, nowhere to go. I can smell this vast static as I lay down on my pillow. I smile & look at the demons of responsibility. With one wink, they writhe in pain & die away.
*I wrote a bunch of stream of consciousness on different topics here. Too lazy to organize.
"Not my problem" is my new best friend
Tentatively, I have solved my insomnia through this attitude. The short explanation is that I stopped getting stressed out. The long is that I have been processing the impressions of the day in my head as I go to sleep. Having these vibrations bouncing around prevented me from sleep. Realizing that most of these issues are actually unrelated to my personal responsibility to myself is a solve.So, my responsibility is essentially to provide myself food, shelter, clothing & medicine, now & in the future. It is also to ensure that I don't die from illness, injury, excess cold, excess heat, thirst or hunger. I have no dependents as of now. My job is simply a means to provide those things for myself.
Sleep is more pressing to those survival needs than my job is. Insomnia is bad for the brain, bad for the body. When I let myself have insomnia because I am trying to accomplish more at my job or in my daily life, I am essentially moving too high on Maslow's heirarchy of needs. The very mechanism through which I am attempting to accomplish the higher, career needs is undermining the lower, physical survival needs.
I started reading the Mr. Money Mustache blog, as well as some of Vinay Gupta's resilience stuff. The idea for MMM is that if you can save/invest 25 times your living expenses for one year, you can retire & live off of the accrued interest from your investments. The goal is to reduce your living expenses & increase your satisfaction with the money you do spend. This is *remarkably* compatible with what I have learned from Dhammarato & with the teaching on renunciation in general.
It has not been until recently that I would have been ready to hear something like this. Learning to be happy through living off of less simply did not make sense to me before I cleared a ton of 'shit' out of my 'energy system' (or however you want to frame it). But now, the very participation in the moment is inherently pleasurable or complete, so it makes perfect sense to simplify the contents & patterns of those moments.
Zooming out a little more, I see more parallels with what has happened with the seattle pragmatic group & with these resilience/independence strategies. It is about removing centralization, heirarchy, monetization, consumerism, rigid rules & filters, while increasing efficiency, honesty, direct mechanisms, peer-contribution, mutual gains & individual independence. I have noticed in a short time it is possible to facilitate quite a few different dharma groups in various cities & countries. After a few short weeks, people begin to report progress in their practice.
There is obvious benefit to a group of cheerleading dharma friends getting together to talk openly about practice, being technique/phenomenlogy driven, etc. There is obvious benefit to learning to save enough to live off of indefinitely, learning to live a healthier lifestyle, etc. Vinay Gupta has some cool stuff like hexayurts (a cheap, permanent, weather-proof structure that he claims can solve the world's housing crisis) & etherium (a type of block-chain currency that he helped create which is now fairly popular). The interesting thing about these things is that they do not require governments or corporations to run. People can bootstrap them to get them going. They both relate to survival. I see the formation of grassroots sanghas, as well as the connection between grassroots sanghas, as belonging to a similar vein: open source dharma for the entire world in a way that avoids common pitfalls (it doesn't cost money, there's no teacher).
In spite of all this newfound inspiration, I'm mostly just learning to let things be. I don't need to do more, I need to do less. It's not my job to save the world, it's my job to keep this mind-body going & that's about it. The rest is just extra software programs I've installed over time. Most of it's malware anyway. Nothing to do, nowhere to go. I can smell this vast static as I lay down on my pillow. I smile & look at the demons of responsibility. With one wink, they writhe in pain & die away.
Thanks Chris. I was obviously too vague in that paragraph, and looking back, what I said was rather silly!
To correct myself:
I believe that mania is dependent on conditioned behaviour that is most likely settled from an early age, rather than the popular opinion that it simply triggers off spontaneously as if somebody slipped some drugs in their drink. There are popular medical opinions that I believe stem from a misunderstanding (or at least non-understanding) of its mechanism of action. All we know is from studies of behaviour and neuroimaging which can only tell us fairly basic things with regards to patterns and predicability, which tend to be more prominent in limited settings (Such as your average medicated manic depressive who sees the shrink once every 2 months, and who may never get the chance to practice the dhamma like we do).
It's common belief that bipolar is incurable and drugs with therapy is the only treatment. Unfortunately, if used in a long term setting, the drugs create dependence, and lessens a person's potential for independence provided they had the correct tools to work things out in a more holistic manner. further reinforcing the belief that it is incurable. This is damaging to the outer environment due to social stigma and people's lack of faith outside of a drugs program. I find this damaging for the patients psyche and motivation to seek out new neural pathways and more importantly, combat the addiction of kindling.(When manic thoughts lead to more manic thoughts as it generates what is perceived as pleasure, but is actually suffering in disguise. To see it as the suffering it is seriously reduces the likelihood of continuing to the point of total fatigue where the only option is a comedown. As the ego doesn't like not being able to do whatever it once could, it fixates on an inverse mania kindling of misery. Due to neuroplasticity, as this behaviour is familiar, it becomes a more standard mental platform to experience the world. The neuroimaging fixates on this issue, putting an overemphasis on the materialism, which is one aspect only. Mindfulness training is good for creating awareness outside of these pathways and creates a lower signal to noise ratio in the brain, creating less stress and less tendancy to have an episode in future. Heredity is a common factor which is taken to be a direct cause for bipolar, though I believe it just creates predispositions for certain types of neuroprogramming.
Sorry for hijacking your thread Noah, but just felt like sharing and thought you might be interested!
To correct myself:
I believe that mania is dependent on conditioned behaviour that is most likely settled from an early age, rather than the popular opinion that it simply triggers off spontaneously as if somebody slipped some drugs in their drink. There are popular medical opinions that I believe stem from a misunderstanding (or at least non-understanding) of its mechanism of action. All we know is from studies of behaviour and neuroimaging which can only tell us fairly basic things with regards to patterns and predicability, which tend to be more prominent in limited settings (Such as your average medicated manic depressive who sees the shrink once every 2 months, and who may never get the chance to practice the dhamma like we do).
It's common belief that bipolar is incurable and drugs with therapy is the only treatment. Unfortunately, if used in a long term setting, the drugs create dependence, and lessens a person's potential for independence provided they had the correct tools to work things out in a more holistic manner. further reinforcing the belief that it is incurable. This is damaging to the outer environment due to social stigma and people's lack of faith outside of a drugs program. I find this damaging for the patients psyche and motivation to seek out new neural pathways and more importantly, combat the addiction of kindling.(When manic thoughts lead to more manic thoughts as it generates what is perceived as pleasure, but is actually suffering in disguise. To see it as the suffering it is seriously reduces the likelihood of continuing to the point of total fatigue where the only option is a comedown. As the ego doesn't like not being able to do whatever it once could, it fixates on an inverse mania kindling of misery. Due to neuroplasticity, as this behaviour is familiar, it becomes a more standard mental platform to experience the world. The neuroimaging fixates on this issue, putting an overemphasis on the materialism, which is one aspect only. Mindfulness training is good for creating awareness outside of these pathways and creates a lower signal to noise ratio in the brain, creating less stress and less tendancy to have an episode in future. Heredity is a common factor which is taken to be a direct cause for bipolar, though I believe it just creates predispositions for certain types of neuroprogramming.
Sorry for hijacking your thread Noah, but just felt like sharing and thought you might be interested!
10 Paramis
- Long-term determination leads to
- Momentary persistence leads to
- Wisdom (empirical knowledge of 3 c's in immediate experience) leads to
- Renunciation (inferential knowledge of 3 c's in all other levels of experience) leads to
- Equanimity (non-reactivity) leads to Forebearance of pain
- Generosity leads to Right Conduct leads to Honesty & Loving-Kindness
- An overarching goal of practice results in
- Day-by-day repetition of technique results in
- Completing the progress of insight & gaining perceptual shifts which are the direct knowledge of emptiness
- This direct knowledge is then applied (either automatically or purposefully) to belief structures which are the seeds of behavioral & emotional patterns, including negative ones. Harmful behavioral & emotional patterns are not compatible with the direct knowledge of emptiness. They reduce the inherent pleasure from the perceptual shift & go against the visceral lessons of interdependence.
- This observation of incompatibility leads to the need for equanimity in the face of all conditions. Once gained, this equanimity powers the ability tolerate pain - forebearance. This group of skills is necessary because of circumstances that are out of one's control.
- When the emptiness of one's attachments is recognized, the logical step is to no longer be attached. From here, the appropriate response is to share one's resources - generosity.
- The practice of generosity creates space in the mind-heart. This space makes it easy to conduct oneself with discipline (meaning taste rather than preference).
- With the refinement of conduct comes an openness in communication because one has nothing to hide - Honesty.
- Also with the refinement of conduct comes an openness of the heart - Loving-Kindness.
Notes
- Some people will naturally develop the rest of the chain after Wisdom because they automatically understand it's implications for the rest of life beyond the perceptual immediacy.
- Some people will need to consciously & intentionally cultivate Renunciation in order to apply the 3 c's to underlying belief structures which lead to behavioral & emotional patterns. These are coarser-level manifestations which may seem to be bucketed into the separate training of "morality" but really are none other than the full fruit of Wisdom. However, without Renunciation in place, there is no bridge between the two & the trainings seems arbitrary.
- Renunciation is the least attractive element of traditional Buddhism(s) to modern-western Buddhism(s). Modern-western Buddhism(s) have attempted to create many alternatives to Renunciation, citing that we are lay people with complicated lives & that traditional Buddhism can be overly simplistic in its denial of the full spectrum of psychology. This attempt to refute the importance of Renunciation does not acknowledge the pyschological sophistication in oft-underemphasized canons such as the Abhidharma.
- Mahayana is frequently invoked as an alternative to renunciation by the mushroom culture. The idea of being 'Theravada in technique but Mahayana in attitude' can be heard in many talks on the Dharma Seed archives.
- There tends to be an emphasis on the Paramis of Honesty, Loving-Kindness, Conduct & Generosity because these are more easily aligned with Abrahamic value systems. However, when these things are attempted without gaining the perceptual shifts & their renunciation add-ons in advance, they are a feedback loop of self-punishment & therefore samsara.
- When performed authentically, the perceptual shifts are the base for the rest of Buddhist training. The fact that striving (Determination, Persistence) is necessary to complete the Progress of Insight & achieve perceptual shifts is suppressed in mushroom culture because such striving is predicted to be toxic for modern-western people.
- The 10 fetter shifts are achieved through a balance of the Paramis. The 10 fetter result is the true, intended fruit of the dharma. Few people achieve even the first of the four stages of enlightenment because this balance is hard to do. It involves going against many preconditioned aspects of human nature & modern life.
1/4
I'm going to journal a bit about details of my sleep habits here, for the purposes of internal alignment on a strategy forward.
Sleep continues to be an obstacle, although my "floor" or "rock bottom" raises every month. Meaning, I have higher functioning while lacking sleep now then I ever have in the past. Also, notably there is no trace of survival stress in the sense of financial, health, career or logistical risk anywhere.
That said, the obstacle is insomnia. I take either 1/4 or 1/2 of the lowest manufactured dose of a sleep med. If I don't take it at all, I won't be able to sleep. My need for either 1/4 or 1/2 fluctuates, depending on biological factors that are unbeknownst to me. I use my bodily instinct the day of to tell which amount to take. If I take 1/4 when I should have taken 1/2, I will either have trouble falling asleep or staying asleep & be sleep deprived the next day. If I take 1/2 & don't get enough sleep, I have a severe "hang over" the next day & need to intake too much caffeine, which is somewhat physically uncomfortable in it's after effects.
Since I have had insomnia related to mood disorder for around 10 years, it would not surprise me if I have developed an aversion to falling asleep & being asleep. I have been very successful at countering aversion lately. Last month was the most I have ever enjoyed doing chores & found them inspiring.
I am going to attempt to counter my aversion to sleep by fostering fun, excitement, inspiration & playfullness through dreaming. I have some study about this under my belt, as well as several dharma friends who are heavily into dream practices. Here are the two, low-effort steps I plan on implementing:
1. Write down my dreams (or no dreams) each morning first thing
2. Periodically look down at my hands & ask if I am in a dream right now
I am aware that there needs to be a willingness to engage with my imagination here: with whatever it throws at me. "Suppression" has no place at this table. Its time to make sleep great again
I'm going to journal a bit about details of my sleep habits here, for the purposes of internal alignment on a strategy forward.
Sleep continues to be an obstacle, although my "floor" or "rock bottom" raises every month. Meaning, I have higher functioning while lacking sleep now then I ever have in the past. Also, notably there is no trace of survival stress in the sense of financial, health, career or logistical risk anywhere.
That said, the obstacle is insomnia. I take either 1/4 or 1/2 of the lowest manufactured dose of a sleep med. If I don't take it at all, I won't be able to sleep. My need for either 1/4 or 1/2 fluctuates, depending on biological factors that are unbeknownst to me. I use my bodily instinct the day of to tell which amount to take. If I take 1/4 when I should have taken 1/2, I will either have trouble falling asleep or staying asleep & be sleep deprived the next day. If I take 1/2 & don't get enough sleep, I have a severe "hang over" the next day & need to intake too much caffeine, which is somewhat physically uncomfortable in it's after effects.
Since I have had insomnia related to mood disorder for around 10 years, it would not surprise me if I have developed an aversion to falling asleep & being asleep. I have been very successful at countering aversion lately. Last month was the most I have ever enjoyed doing chores & found them inspiring.
I am going to attempt to counter my aversion to sleep by fostering fun, excitement, inspiration & playfullness through dreaming. I have some study about this under my belt, as well as several dharma friends who are heavily into dream practices. Here are the two, low-effort steps I plan on implementing:
1. Write down my dreams (or no dreams) each morning first thing
2. Periodically look down at my hands & ask if I am in a dream right now
I am aware that there needs to be a willingness to engage with my imagination here: with whatever it throws at me. "Suppression" has no place at this table. Its time to make sleep great again