Author: caocao
Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum

Hi, I've been reading over this site recently after reading Daniel Ingrams book last year. I have some questions for discussion.

In regards to the discussion on "getting things done" and "doing it", it seems to be a recurring theme also throughout Daniel's book this "just do it" type of attitude. There isn't much emphasis placed on the five mental hindrances and how to overcome them, nor is there much emphasis on karmic blockages causing these types of hurdles in practice. I was wondering what Daniel and the others think about these types of things.

My meditation teachers try to soften the mind with practices such as dana and metta, or asking for forgiveness, to unblock the heart and prepare one for insight and other practices as well as developing morality training such as right speech, action, thoughts, livelihood, etc. One question I have is in regards to this karma aspect and what Daniel's opinions are on the significance of karma in our training.

Some of the people that undertake strong insight training without this foundation may experience alot of difficulties, and not much stable progress and will induce this "dark night" stage that could be classified as bordering on mental illness. Daniel hasn't talked much about his experience during this stage and I'm wondering if some people may not actually be able to come out of it.

Author: caocao

If the noble eightfold path is practiced in full the progress along the path should be full of sukkha, learning and observation, letting go. What I am trying to say is that if people without good foundations practice in this way they may shake their world and be left quite detached, unrestrained and disturbed.

Apart from this it seems people are talking quite flippantly about enlightenment? And there seems to be a lack of compassion in the "hardcore" outlook?

Sorry to rock the boat a little since I really did enjoy Daniel's book. Just looking for clarification for my doubts.

cc

This might help the conversation, from MCTB book:

"Traditionally, books on meditation spend a lot of time discussing
the possible hindrances to meditation. I will not. The hindrances are an
important topic, but they can easily begin to seem more ominous than
they really are. Hindrances are just anything of which we were not
mindful and of which we did not investigate the truth. Now that we
know to be mindful and investigate the Three Characteristics of all
moment-to-moment experiences, there will only be hindrances when we
forget to do this.

If we do not forget to do this, there will be no hindrances. No
phenomena are inherently a hindrance unless we do not understand
them. If we did not understand at least one of the Three Characteristics
of each of the sensations that make up a phenomenon, no matter what
it was, it was a hindrance. Remember that the content of reality is not
our concern in insight meditation, but the ultimate truth of the
sensations that make up experiential reality is. So whatever seems to be
in the way of your practice, remember that the experience of that moment
is the practice and contains all the truth you could ever need!

All phenomena are of the nature of ultimate truth. When we know
deeply that these are all of the nature of ultimate truth, phenomena
cease to be a fundamental problem."

Author: GhostLLP

caocao, I have not read Daniel's book, so I can't speak much on this, but I will say that I agree with your meditation teachers.

Though I'm sure I come from a more "softcore" outlook than most here.

Peace
Lucas

Hi Caocao,
Yeah, this site is pretty "hands-on". So while we don't bemoan the existence of the hindrances much, we do discuss meditation in detail, we share encouragement and advice for real-life, practical situations where we get stuck, how we got un-stuck in those places, and so on. The hindrances are there, and this is how we deal with them.

In my opinion, that's exactly what the Buddha taught: not to obsess about the hindrances, but to grind away at them with mindfulness, and it's that daily grinding away at them, the practicing (not just in meditation: there are three fields of practice in the noble eightfold path) where the members of this site are such a rare example of an incredibly functional online group of spiritual friends, in exactly the sense I think the Buddha was going on about in his famous words to Ananda ("don't say *half* the holy life, Ananda - company of good friends is the *whole* of the holy life!")

It's true there are not many threads discussing metta practice, for example. So start one! If you have any advice you wish to share, write it up on a page (this is a wiki, actually). If you wish to discuss a practical point of the development of metta, start a thread. The cool thing about this site is that people actually try new techniques and practices, and come back to report progress and ask questions, and we all profit from that.

As to "unbalanced" practice - yeah, that happens. I'm guilty of this myself. But I'm sure you yourself have noticed that the process tends to drive one in the necessary direction, balancing itself out, given that the practitioner has trust in the process. And again, the help of good friends is invaluable, and available here.

(cont.)

The "dark night yogi" problem is real. My gut feeling is that Daniel's open approach will result in more people getting out of the dark night than in - most people I know sort of stumbled into it on their own, and are happy to finally know what the hell is going on. Also, the extremes he describes are just that - extremes. This *can* happen, but in most cases, it's less severe. In my case, I'd been in the dark night for years, and by his description it was recognizable (though not nearly as pronounced), and I really began to seriously consider the possibility of breaking out of all that.

And flippant talk about enlightenment? True, to an extent. I really like it where it de-mystifies the process. I do hold every companion and teacher here and elsewhere, Buddhist or "pilgrim from another sect", in great esteem.

As to the lack of compassion in the "hardcore" outlook - interesting. Me, I find it more compassionate to be given practical methods and support than to be reassured in other ways, but maybe I'm missing the point you're making?

Finally, welcome!

Cheers,
Florian

maybe someone, somewhere, travelled the insight path in a way that was full of sukkha... but if so, i dont know any of them! and i know people that have practiced lots of charity and loving-kindess. seems like they've had it just as rough as the rest of us. and the buddha certainly wouldn't have described his road as such. have you read the pali canon accounts of his liberation? lots of pain on his own middle path too. seems unavoidable to me.

Hi caocao,
First, keep rocking the boat – no need to apologize.

“If the noble eightfold path is practiced in full the progress along the path should be full of sukkha, learning and observation, letting go”
- What do you base this statement on? What do you mean by terms like 'letting go', 'learning', 'observation'?

“people without good foundations practice in this way they may shake their world and be left quite detached, unrestrained and disturbed”
- In my view, most of humanity is already in a state of “detached, unrestrained and disturbed” - I don't see how it can get much worse.

“there seems to be a lack of compassion in the "hardcore" outlook?”
- In one sense, making a serious time commitment and effort to practice is a compassionate act in itself. Spending the time to read and respond to posts in an effort to help each other is also a compassionate act. Compassion (in its deepest meaning) requires awakening and then integrating that understanding into our lives. To make great effort to awaken is therefore a great act of compassion.

Personally, I feel metta practices are very helpful and I think over time these will get more coverage here.

-Chuck

Thanks, caocao, for this post. One of the most important things we do here is answer questions like this one.

Here's an excerpt from Daniel Ingram's "Imagine" post on the home page of DhO:

"Imagine a world where the dharma was just like anything else you wanted to learn, like playing piano or mathematics. You studied with people who were not afraid to tell you what they were capable of, you practiced techniques that everyone expected to work, you talked honestly with your fellow dharma adventurers about what was going and helped each other to progress, you attained to the expected results, and when you did so, you were not ridiculed or made to shut up about it, but instead were viewed as one more successful practitioner of the art who was there to support those coming up and also still learning from others."

The flip-side of flippancy is the "mushroom factor." This is the prevailing situation in dharma today, with people speaking about their attainments in hushed tones, while furtively glancing over their shoulders for fear that someone important will hear them as they dare to speak clearly and honestly about their experiences. Many of us here have had enough of that, and are working to bring about a revolution in the way enlightenment is perceived. We do not find enlightenment shameful. We find it beautiful. We do not believe it should be controlled by anyone, but that it should be accessible to all. The members of DhO are pioneers in a kind of radical democratization of the dharma. If we are flippant at times, it may be from the sheer giddy joy of finally being able to speak openly about something we value so highly.

Welcome aboard.

Kenneth

Exactly. One reason we don't focus so much on karma here is that it is being done so well everywhere else. Out in the mainstream dharma world, you can't swing a cat without hitting someone who wants to talk incessantly about dana and metta. It's much harder, on the other hand, to find someone who will speak openly and authoritatively about attainment.

One of the best things about DhO, in my opinion, is that it doesn't try to be all things to all people. It is a niche site with a clear focus on pragmatic, results-oriented practice. I'll grant you that it isn't for the faint of heart, and what Trungpa Rinpoche used to refer to as "idiot compassion" is in short supply here. The compassion offered here is of a higher order; what's being offered here is nothing less than the technology that leads to enlightenment. When you are enlightened, you will understand karma very well indeed. Meanwhile, it is good to cultivate the wholesome qualities you mentioned and there are many teachers and retreat centers that specialize in those trainings.

Welcome cc,

My experience has been that compassion is abundant here. I can understand how one not overly familiar with the site might have the impression that hardcore dharma is somehow lacking because we tend to place so much emphasis on getting it done. This stems, I think, from a prevailing sense of urgency on the part of practitioners here to complete the circuit and reach the end of suffering.

Those here who have attained to higher levels openly and freely share their experience and offer advice to those of us still working through the lower levels. I can't think of anything more compassionate than that.

This approach to practice isn't for everyone, but for those with a strong desire to finish the path and the willingness to work hard toward that goal, I can't think of a better resource.

I understand how the process of demystifying something that has for so long been wrapped up and hidden away and making it readily available to all could be viewed as flippant, but I don't think that is the prevailing attitude here; certainly not among the arahants who post here.

Hi cc,

I know what I'm about to write has already been said in so many words, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents.

I studied and practiced Buddhism for 4 years prior to hearing Daniel Ingram's interviews on Buddhist Geeks, and then finding my way to the DhO. Prior to implementing the techniques described in Daniel's book, with the help of the members of this forum, I had no recognizable insights. I have progressed in my practiced more in the last year than the first 4 years combined, and I don't think it would have happened if Daniel and the other would not have been willing to share their perspective on the dharma.

In my opinion, teaching others ways to attain fundamental insight in to the universal characteristics of all phenomena is way more compassionate than simply teaching them to relax and be nice to each other. Without insight, the deepest fundamental suffering caused by the illusion of duality will persist. It is only be untangling this illusion that one may become free of this type of suffering. Therefore, this approach is not lacking in compassion, but brim full of it.

If you stick around, you will notice a lot of conventional compassion and kindness too. It's all here. But sometimes the best way to cut to the root of the problem is the speak matter-of-factly about some of the types of things that get in the way of good practice. Your act of "rocking the boat" (i.e. questioning) is just the kind of thing I would encourage you to do! Any practice related questions are welcome here, even if you think they might go against the grain of the greater community.