Author: mpavoreal
Forum: Practical Dharma

I'm fired up to get competent with concentration and decided on kasina practice. (I've meditated some with Soto Zen teachers who did not use deliberate concentration.) I intended to "just follow the instructions", but finding practical issues to resolve with kasina practice and wonder if you can get too creative when doing foundational Theravada practice.

I found that trying to visualize a kasina (this is my 1st experience with vizualization) seems completely different than working with a retinal after-image. I've been focusing on an external kasina when one is available, but when closing the eyes I've been ignoring the fleeting after-image and trying to apply the concentration to develop a sustainable mental kasina image. Seems like you would own a mental image more than one that's dependent on visual circumstances. Does this seem on track so far?

Author: mpavoreal

Since my mental "kasina" is an amorphous, unstable blob of color, decided to work on making a circumfrance or outline of the circle. Then noticed that you can make a complete circumference very briefly just by kind of willing it all at once rather than trying to mentally draw it. But this is an undeveloped muscle. So when I do concentrate on an external kasina, I particularly try to get and hold the feel of it's circumfrance all at once, while including some focus on the internal color, so I can apply that concentration skill to making a mental kasina. I figure when this develops, the internal color can then get even more focus. This project is only a couple of weeks old, and only gets an hour or 2 daily, so it's got a long way to go.

Author: mpavoreal

The past couple of days, noticed that trying to feel into the external kasina's circumference made it start feeling palpable in my body, like I could experience it as both my circumfrance and the kasina's. And the center point of the external kasina was also in my mid-section sometimes, like a hara feeling. That seemed cool but not sure I should deliberately develop that. I guess my goal is to be able to create and continue a vivid experience of a kasina to concentrate on, or to become one with. (Is that different?) Does this seem within the parameters of effective, traditional kasina practice?

Thanks for any advice! There is an awesome range of experience on this site.

Author: mpavoreal

Just found the very helpful "Shamatha practices with Kasinas" discussion. (It would have been better to work off of that and add to it than start a new discussion.) Looks like what I've been getting into is not really what's advised, so getting more in line with the instructions. (It was interesting though, seems more like the Shingon visualization experience described briefly by Hokei in that discussion.)

Hey Mark,

Wish I would have caught your post a couple of days ago; I must have overlooked it.

It's a bit tough to tell just what's going on with the practices you mentioned in the first 3 posts. The important thing is whether or not you feel you're doing something right. When you do your practice, are you feeling the mind expand and/or contract? Do lights become vivid or blurred? Do aspects and feelings in the mind dominate that normally are not nearly as apparent?

To me, it sounds like you're possibly accessing jhanas, and I'm assuming that is what you were hoping for? For instance, feeling the kasina in your body could be an indication that you're accessing the 2nd jhana.

You mention in your profile that you're a systems analyst. Luckily, the mind is just another system. Try blending some of your analysis approaches into your practice. Most functions of the mind are not nearly as complex as they first appear to be. Try to get into the habit of quickly and accurately iterating an OODA loop during your practice; you'll rapidly figure out what works and what does not.

Helpful?
Trent

[OODA loop for those who are not familiar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_Loop]

Author: mpavoreal

Thanks for the feedback, Trent! I was thinking kasina practice would be simple, straightforward exercise to build up concentration. Got disorienting that I managed to generate all kinds of interesting forks from the beaten path. So coming back to the basic instructions to try again.

" are you feeling the mind expand and/or contract?" Recently I've been trying to keep refreshing and holding a palpable sense of the kasina -- as if someone just popped their face into my view, using counting the breath to 10 as a background reminder. With this approach I haven't really had a sense of expansion or contraction as much as just fixation on the color (unless wandering off in thought).

"Do lights become vivid or blurred?" On my laptop screen, I'm staring at the red-on-blue PowerPoint slide kindly posted on this site. I think what I'm experiencing so far is retinal effects from eyes relaxing or contracting. Most often an opaque, retinal overlay that makes the red color more vague. I've been just focusing on whether I'm concentrating on it rather than how it looks so far. (Looking forward to trying a natural object like a plate.)

"Do aspects and feelings in the mind dominate that normally are not nearly as apparent?" Not since I stopped doing the perimeter visualization. Afterwards, though, there sometimes seems evidence of more concentration.

I don't exactly know what that means to access jhanas, but definitely want to do it! I need to read more and understand the theory better. My main motivation is trying to beef up my ability to pay sustained attention while doing daily-life mindfulness, and have more insight power for noting practice. The extent to which I can pay attention and be aware has been pretty pathetic a lot of the time, -- for years.

Thanks again, Mark