Author: DanielThorson
Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum

This message is aimed at Daniel Ingram, though anyone with insight on the issue should comment,

I just listened to your Buddhist Geeks interview on 'Enlightened Teachers'. I feel I ought to preface this and say that I enjoyed very much your more recent appreances on the show and bought your book as a result (through which my practice has greatly benefited).

My question is, I hope, rather simple. You say in the podcast that enlightened individuals still have all their neurosis (and, one would assume, various other hang-ups). My question is, what is the benefit, for the individual, of the sort of enlightenment YOU have experienced? Is it simply that these ever-present neurosis don't create as much suffering? Or is there something more?

In other words; upon enlightenment will I simply become a NON-SUFFERING lazy nail-biting layabout? Perhaps those aspects are considered morality training?

Thanks,
Daniel

Good question. Listened to the February 12, 2007 Buddhist Greeks w/Daniel today and came away with the same thought. To quote Daniel, "Arising and passing away lasts a few minutes tops; Disillusionment a few minutes; On the cushion, 20-30 minues in dark night and in equanimity 5-10 minutes" and so it goes. Daniel says that is the reality of the path, though not voiced by others. Sounds grim.

On the other hand, Vince Horn practices under Daniel's guidance and he doesn't appear to be a masochist.

Good questions.

Simply understanding in real-time the true nature of sensations doesn't change as much as most think it will, but if you have my book then you know my exhaustive take on that stuff.

Other fun reference: Jack Kornfield's After the Ecstasy the Laundry

I personally work about 80+ hours/week doing various things, but I always did, so it didn't change much on that front, but I must say it is easier to do than it was before.

I know a number of enlightened people who find themselves more ambitious and less weighed down by various things and able to accomplish more than they could when they were Dark Night Dwellers.

In general, I wouldn't trade what I have accomplished and understood for anything except perhaps World Peace, and it definitely has helped, but describing how it has helped, as I have stated before, is not so easy.

Just to throw out some thoughts loosely related to the topic that have come up recently:

I used to believe there were real options. Now it is obvious there is just reality doing whatever it does, and whatever shows up, that's it. This simplifies a lot of things in some very fundamental way.

I used to have all sorts of debates about traditions and concepts and which better described reality. Now reality itself is by far its best automatic descriptor.

Before I considered practice, it seemed that the simple facts of ordinary reality were all there were. This was very easy and straightforward. When I began practicing, all these stages, stages, insights, altered raptures, powers-like phenomena, energetic phenomena and the like opened up to me and all this was fascinating for some time. Now reality is just like it is, with those things as part of the package, but the attitude and perspective has gone back to the simple acceptance of reality at face value there was before I got into all this.

For a long time I was driven to seek enlightenment, teachings, concepts, dharma books, retreats, teachers, trappings, states, stages and the like. That drive has vanished, and been replaced with a deep appreciation of training in Morality as the fundamental thing at this point, actually, other than occasionally dusting off certain concentration attainments, is the whole game at this point, which has helped me engage with the world to try to make it a better place when I can in my small way, as the world's happiness directly affects me as an integrated whole.

In general, I suspect that if you are seeking answers on sites like this one, you have probably crossed the A&P, and thus are a Darknighter. Given that, every single person I know who has gotten stream enter has said it was way better than being a pre-stream entry Darknighter, and thus, even if you don't like all the descriptions of the territory, I would recommend it highly, as has every person I can think of who has done it that I have ever read about it or known. Thus, practice well, and don't worry so much about how people sell the thing.

Helpful or interesting?

Daniel

As I alluded to in another thread, I wanted to ask you more about this, Daniel, because my interactions with non-DhO dharma friends, as well as the plethora of dharma books, seem to dwell on the morality parts of the teachings almost to the exclusion of the hardcore stuff that I love about your work.

No question, I want to be better in all respects, morality included. But do you think it fair to back-burner that a bit while getting stream entry (or even later paths) or, from your current perspective, is it a requirement to cultivate the morality while at the same time doing the concentration/insight practices? I get the feeling that morality will come easier, in the same way that jhanas become easier, after attaining a certain level on the insight path, but am I deluding myself?

Note that I am not asking for permission to be immoral, or amoral, but there are only so many things one can focus on.

hi tom, just kinda curious .. what do you have in mind when you say put morality on the back-burner a bit? like, what are you thinking you might do differently from what you do now?

tarin

Well, what I am trying to say is that there is a morality component to the "core teachings", a concentration component, and an insight/wisdom component. The Three Trainings. Each requires "work" to advance, and each requires a different kind of work. I am having a hard enough time keeping the concentration/insight balls in the air, that to keep the morality teachings front-and-center is pushing my limits.

I know it sounds kind of odd, and really I am not asking for license to be immoral, just confirmation that working on morality gets easier once you have, say, stream entry. The best analogy I can think of is jhanas, where the comment is often made that doing jhana work pre-SE is much tougher than post-SE. Similarly, is Right Speech and Compassion, with metta gushing out of my pores, much easier when I have my own mental ducks in a row?

What would I do differently? Well, I don't kill or steal now, so I guess I am ok there. But honestly, I have a hard time being mindful throughout the day, and I still have little patience with people that don't live up to my expectations, and sometimes say it. If I were to really work at it, over time I am sure it would improve. But from the changes that I keep reading about as part of SE and beyond, I have to think that the mindfulness required to do that sort of thing is acquired, so I am willing to keep being me until "I" am no longer "me", if you get my drift.

Is that any clearer, or am I digging myself deeper into the Inferno?

i cant really tell, so let me rephrase a bit:

how would doing (more) morality practice (based on more mindfulness throughout the day, is what it sounds like from what you're saying) impinge at all on your concentration or insight practices?

Hello Tom,


That's a quite understandable viewpoint, Tom. From my point of view, you are correct to be looking at this from a very common sense-like manner. The training is gradual. There's nowhere where it says that everything has to all come together all at once, at one time (even though it can seem this way when listening to various groups and teachers talk about it). I can tell you from experience that it doesn't happen that way ("all at once", that is). What does happen (to use an example) is that you begin — with the help of mindfulness — to "see" (become aware of) the mental defilements as they arise. It is at this point, then, that you have a decision to take: to either allow them to overwhelm you, or to change your behavior as you see fit. Don't worry if you fall down a few times and are unable to stop yourself. This is how we all learn. Second chances abound.


Mindfulness is the key. And one of the keys to being able to maintain mindfulness (that I have discovered) is the practice of absorption contemplation. It helps to condition the mind for calm and tranquility — to bring on passadhi, which is profound mental calmness as it is extended from sitting meditation/contemplation into your conscious everyday awareness — so that the mind can actually slow down enough to "see things as they are." (This is not to suggest that things go into slow motion. Only that once the mind is calm, it is now ready to look rationally and realistically at whatever situation or circumstance it is that confronts it, and to deal with it in a rational and realistic manner rather than in a knee-jerk manner — if you see what I mean.)

To take this a little further, the training (through samatha and vipassana) is leading the person up to the point where he is finally able to begin dealing with purifying the asavas. The asavas are the mental influxes regarding four qualities — "sensuality, views, becoming, and ignorance — that 'flow out' of the mind and create the flood of the round of death and rebirth," according to the teaching. These asavas can be worked on using meditation, or they can be worked on using mental restraint in the heat of the battle of having to deal with these confrontations in daily life. What is important is the "wisdom" (panna) and "presence of mind" to be able to see these phenomena as they occur in real time so that they can be dealt with as necessary.

I hope that helps.

In peace,
Ian

I see what you are saying, Tarin, and I guess I have to admit that technically there is no overlap between effort on the cushion and off; they are different things. But I am just feeling so...obsessed...with the on-cushion work that trying to integrate any more "stuff" into my already overwhelming life (no matter how Right it is) might just make my head explode.

I have said this to a couple of people privately, but I am really seeing the potential benefit to having a retreat right now. There is just no way I can swing it, so I struggle along. But I get your message, and you are not letting me off easy.