Bored in Equanimity waiting for first Path? - Discussion
I wrote up a few thoughts about balancing practice at this stage -
In the chapter about Equanimity in Daniel's Book, there is a sentence I've read countless times by now:
[indent]From this point enlightenment is likely to be attained quickly as long as the meditator continues to simply practice and gently fine tune their awareness and precision, paying gentle attention to things like thoughts of progress and satisfaction with equanimity.
[/indent]
It seemed encouraging enough the first few times around, but after a while, I got impatient with equanimity. It's pleasant enough, but ... So I tried Kenneths dry insight technique for attaining path a couple of weeks ago. In response to sending him a long description of my experiences with the dry technique, he recommended adding a bit of light, fun concentration to my daily practice, using the breath or a kasina object. I chose the breath, because I'm familiar with breath meditation. A few days later, the "kasina" thread resurfaced, with Guillermo describing his experiences. I'll give this a try after all, I thought, constructed a brown paper kasina using scissors, a saucer and brown paper, and sat staring at it for half an hour one morning. Apart from the usual side-effects of overdoing kasina practice like this the first time (see Guillermo's post for details), and learning that I can see "eyelid colors" even with my eyes open, nothing much seemed to happen.
Until that evening, that is. When I sat for meditation, I directly entered 4th Jhana, hard, and "shut the door" behind me for what felt like a very long time, and probably was about fifteen to twenty minutes, before it deflated. With "hard" i don't mean "one-pointed, to the exclusion of everything else" hard, but still distinctly hard.
Worried that I might "get stuck in Jhana" at this point, I asked Kenneth about it. He explained that the more active, forceful, "dry" technique would yield entry through the dukkha door, while letting 4th jhana/equanimity ripen would be the route through the no-self door. I had some concerns about not investigating enough and sliding back, but these were dispelled: "remember that after a certain point, viz. high equanimity, vipassana and samatha are merged. Vipassana always happens automatically." (from the "No Dog, Some Dog and the Simplest Thing" thread).
After reading a few more of my enthusiastic messages about me hitting hard 4th Jhana yet again several more times, Kenneth asked me if I would write up my thoughts on how I improved my level of concentration to balance out my level of investigation. Here's a very simple analysis of my practice up to now:
Even taking into account that investigation will exercise concentration, the lack of balance is quite obvious. Kenneth alluded to the Liebig Minimum, which is a model of plant growth, how short supply of just one essential nutrient will limit growth even if all the other essential nutrients are plentiful. Liebig himself used the image of a barrel with staves of uneven length: the capacity of the barrel is limited by the shortest stave.
It's the same story as with the five spiritual faculties. If Wisdom and Faith are out of balance, or Energy and Concentration, progress is not smooth. Same with concentration and investigation. If one is in short supply, growth is stunted, a plateau can result.
I hope this will help some of those who, like myself, are sitting in equanimity prior to first path. I'd also love it if those with more experience would chime in.
Cheers,
Florian
(Edit 2010-10-2: Originally, this was a page on the old Dharma Overground. The page was not transferred to the new site, but since this thread gets referenced occasionally I inserted the text of the original page here. This way, the thread seems less mysterious.)
In the chapter about Equanimity in Daniel's Book, there is a sentence I've read countless times by now:
[indent]From this point enlightenment is likely to be attained quickly as long as the meditator continues to simply practice and gently fine tune their awareness and precision, paying gentle attention to things like thoughts of progress and satisfaction with equanimity.
[/indent]
It seemed encouraging enough the first few times around, but after a while, I got impatient with equanimity. It's pleasant enough, but ... So I tried Kenneths dry insight technique for attaining path a couple of weeks ago. In response to sending him a long description of my experiences with the dry technique, he recommended adding a bit of light, fun concentration to my daily practice, using the breath or a kasina object. I chose the breath, because I'm familiar with breath meditation. A few days later, the "kasina" thread resurfaced, with Guillermo describing his experiences. I'll give this a try after all, I thought, constructed a brown paper kasina using scissors, a saucer and brown paper, and sat staring at it for half an hour one morning. Apart from the usual side-effects of overdoing kasina practice like this the first time (see Guillermo's post for details), and learning that I can see "eyelid colors" even with my eyes open, nothing much seemed to happen.
Until that evening, that is. When I sat for meditation, I directly entered 4th Jhana, hard, and "shut the door" behind me for what felt like a very long time, and probably was about fifteen to twenty minutes, before it deflated. With "hard" i don't mean "one-pointed, to the exclusion of everything else" hard, but still distinctly hard.
Worried that I might "get stuck in Jhana" at this point, I asked Kenneth about it. He explained that the more active, forceful, "dry" technique would yield entry through the dukkha door, while letting 4th jhana/equanimity ripen would be the route through the no-self door. I had some concerns about not investigating enough and sliding back, but these were dispelled: "remember that after a certain point, viz. high equanimity, vipassana and samatha are merged. Vipassana always happens automatically." (from the "No Dog, Some Dog and the Simplest Thing" thread).
After reading a few more of my enthusiastic messages about me hitting hard 4th Jhana yet again several more times, Kenneth asked me if I would write up my thoughts on how I improved my level of concentration to balance out my level of investigation. Here's a very simple analysis of my practice up to now:
Even taking into account that investigation will exercise concentration, the lack of balance is quite obvious. Kenneth alluded to the Liebig Minimum, which is a model of plant growth, how short supply of just one essential nutrient will limit growth even if all the other essential nutrients are plentiful. Liebig himself used the image of a barrel with staves of uneven length: the capacity of the barrel is limited by the shortest stave.
It's the same story as with the five spiritual faculties. If Wisdom and Faith are out of balance, or Energy and Concentration, progress is not smooth. Same with concentration and investigation. If one is in short supply, growth is stunted, a plateau can result.
I hope this will help some of those who, like myself, are sitting in equanimity prior to first path. I'd also love it if those with more experience would chime in.
Cheers,
Florian
(Edit 2010-10-2: Originally, this was a page on the old Dharma Overground. The page was not transferred to the new site, but since this thread gets referenced occasionally I inserted the text of the original page here. This way, the thread seems less mysterious.)
I believe I'm in the same situation, so this is pretty interesting to read. I've read that MCTB quote a million times as well 
I've been in equanimity since I came off retreat in January, but seem to have gone through a few distinct phases since then. The most recent change was when I noticed that my "awareness" or my keeping track of sensations was still slightly seperated from what I was observing (well, in my perception at least, not in reality)
When I noticed this and "allowed" (very important) physical and mental sensations to be experienced as one stream my practice seemed to move along a stage closer. That sounds like something a practioner has to do earlier on in the progress of insight, but this was the same mind-body integration on a very subtle level that I hadn't noticed before. It required some degree of surrender, and realising that any notion of an observer is also constantly being observed. Let it all flow, but be gentle!
A day or so after that step forward, I had a strange experience which I described in my diary as moving from Here to Over there. All the sudden I lost my center point and felt almost the opposite of what I usually am. It felt like moving from form, to awareness of all the "outlines" of reality. Of course I got over-excited (and confused) and there was no collapse/integration of Here and There. Apparently this can happen a few times before the Real Deal collapse, fruition.
(contd)
I've been in equanimity since I came off retreat in January, but seem to have gone through a few distinct phases since then. The most recent change was when I noticed that my "awareness" or my keeping track of sensations was still slightly seperated from what I was observing (well, in my perception at least, not in reality)When I noticed this and "allowed" (very important) physical and mental sensations to be experienced as one stream my practice seemed to move along a stage closer. That sounds like something a practioner has to do earlier on in the progress of insight, but this was the same mind-body integration on a very subtle level that I hadn't noticed before. It required some degree of surrender, and realising that any notion of an observer is also constantly being observed. Let it all flow, but be gentle!
A day or so after that step forward, I had a strange experience which I described in my diary as moving from Here to Over there. All the sudden I lost my center point and felt almost the opposite of what I usually am. It felt like moving from form, to awareness of all the "outlines" of reality. Of course I got over-excited (and confused) and there was no collapse/integration of Here and There. Apparently this can happen a few times before the Real Deal collapse, fruition.
(contd)
Hi Dan and Beta,
Yes, equanimity has a few sub-stages as far as my experience of it goes. The "low vs. high" equanimity model is a bit crude, or maybe that's just because with us, off retreat, the unfolding is so slow that we blow every single little energy release out of proportion
That "Here / Over There" thing keeps happening here, too. There's a weird, very unaesthetic, oozing, grinding, slipping event every time the here/there thing keels over.
On the energy release front - quite a lot of eyelid tremors during meditation, and a strong sense of having a gyroscope embedded in my head behind the eyebrows. Probably related to the concentration.
Lube: yeah! Definitely! Cultivating the 4th Jhana also gives me something to *do*, a bit of progress to make, while watching the ripening process. And Kenneth claims that familiarity with 4J is useful later on, after first path, for exploring the Pure Land Jhanas. Just the thing to get a map geek interested. ;)
Cheers,
Florian
Yes, equanimity has a few sub-stages as far as my experience of it goes. The "low vs. high" equanimity model is a bit crude, or maybe that's just because with us, off retreat, the unfolding is so slow that we blow every single little energy release out of proportion
That "Here / Over There" thing keeps happening here, too. There's a weird, very unaesthetic, oozing, grinding, slipping event every time the here/there thing keels over.
On the energy release front - quite a lot of eyelid tremors during meditation, and a strong sense of having a gyroscope embedded in my head behind the eyebrows. Probably related to the concentration.
Lube: yeah! Definitely! Cultivating the 4th Jhana also gives me something to *do*, a bit of progress to make, while watching the ripening process. And Kenneth claims that familiarity with 4J is useful later on, after first path, for exploring the Pure Land Jhanas. Just the thing to get a map geek interested. ;)
Cheers,
Florian
Most of my energetic activity has been behind eyebrows/forehead as well. It's mostly focused on the ajna chakra area, and feels like "pressure", something pushing against my forehead, or something trying to push out. I've had this on and off since I got off my last retreat. It shows up all the time, on and off the cushion, sometimes when I'm reading a good book, sometimes randomly, nearly always when sitting. It's there now as I write this, pushing and buzzin away. Sometimes the pressure spreads to the top of my head where it feels like it's on the inside of my skull.
Sometimes the pressure gets really intense, and it's very hard to just observe it like all the other soft flowing sensations in my body and surroundings. Sometimes it feels like liquid metal (heavy, dense) resting on my eyebrows, and can feel so heavy at times that my head almost slumps forward. It also tends to be quite mobile during sits, sometimes spreading out, sometimes becoming more concentrated in one area. I've looked at it closely a number of times: it feels very solid at first, and then on further investigation, pulsing at incredible speed. Very dense. Quite annoying
I sometimes feel lots of energy building around my ribcage and tummy when I really get deep into meditation, as well as the eye flickering/rolling that most people seem to experience.
Sometimes the pressure gets really intense, and it's very hard to just observe it like all the other soft flowing sensations in my body and surroundings. Sometimes it feels like liquid metal (heavy, dense) resting on my eyebrows, and can feel so heavy at times that my head almost slumps forward. It also tends to be quite mobile during sits, sometimes spreading out, sometimes becoming more concentrated in one area. I've looked at it closely a number of times: it feels very solid at first, and then on further investigation, pulsing at incredible speed. Very dense. Quite annoying
I sometimes feel lots of energy building around my ribcage and tummy when I really get deep into meditation, as well as the eye flickering/rolling that most people seem to experience.
I'm also at this spot. Cycling to equanimity a couple times per day in everyday life (or it feels that way... at least if I'm somewhat concentrated). And during sits, also reaching equanimity, with the dark night stretch varying in nastiness and length.
I haven't been at this stage for very long (maybe a month?) and I still have a sense of progress pretty much during every sit. But man... diminishing returns. It's easy to feel conceited ("I won't be like those other people who hang out in equanimity for ages!") but ultimately the joke is on me, huh?
Maybe one really, genuinely has to become disillusioned with equanimity for things to proceed. Disillusionment is really not something one can fake.
Food for thought: is all this team encouragement, all this looking forward to useful practice tidbits from DhO, potentially counterproductive? Could we really be unwittingly feeding the corruptions of insight by doing this? Might we do better to go incommunicado for a while, and really face the possibility that first-path fruition might not something you can catalyze by sheer effort?
Obviously I like the idea of team sport enlightenment but... ugh. It gets frustrating. I already feel kinship and admiration with you guys who've been at equanimity for so much longer. I hope we make it.
I'm discouraged, is what I'm saying. And clearly, impatient
I haven't been at this stage for very long (maybe a month?) and I still have a sense of progress pretty much during every sit. But man... diminishing returns. It's easy to feel conceited ("I won't be like those other people who hang out in equanimity for ages!") but ultimately the joke is on me, huh?
Maybe one really, genuinely has to become disillusioned with equanimity for things to proceed. Disillusionment is really not something one can fake.
Food for thought: is all this team encouragement, all this looking forward to useful practice tidbits from DhO, potentially counterproductive? Could we really be unwittingly feeding the corruptions of insight by doing this? Might we do better to go incommunicado for a while, and really face the possibility that first-path fruition might not something you can catalyze by sheer effort?
Obviously I like the idea of team sport enlightenment but... ugh. It gets frustrating. I already feel kinship and admiration with you guys who've been at equanimity for so much longer. I hope we make it.
I'm discouraged, is what I'm saying. And clearly, impatient
Hi Antonio,
Welcome to the club.
You wrote, "is ... all this looking forward to useful practice tidbits from DhO, potentially counterproductive? Could we really be unwittingly feeding the corruptions of insight by doing this?"
Do it wittingly, then. Pay attention to those sensations that make up this question, this doubt. I've found that it really pays to investigate widely in equanimity, as Daniel recommends, including thoughts about progress and so on, to watch the back and forth between compassion and suffering evident in the discouragement and the impatience.
I've also found that Kenneth's advice to pump up the concentration skills at this point is very good advice indeed. Maybe Path can't be attained by sheer effort, I honestly don't know, but by pouring the energy of frustration and sheer effort looking for an outlet, into concentration is a very good thing to do in many ways. For one, the recurring mini-dark-night phases of the daily nana progression can be recognized more quickly and clearly, and bleed-through stopped early on, maybe even before affecting friends and family. Also, sitting in hard jhana is very satisfying, and clarity is a good bit more crisp for quite some time even after emerging. Maybe this is old news to you, but I've only hit hard jhana recently, and can't recommend it highly enough.
And if you're really impatient, there's always the "dry insight" method, falling off the end of vibration pulses, fluttering eyelids, flashing eyelid lights, whatever. I play with those from time to time as well.
Well make it - we made it to this point, after all.
Cheers (feeling like a Dhamma cheerleader, wondering what sensations make up this feeling),
Florian
Welcome to the club.
You wrote, "is ... all this looking forward to useful practice tidbits from DhO, potentially counterproductive? Could we really be unwittingly feeding the corruptions of insight by doing this?"
Do it wittingly, then. Pay attention to those sensations that make up this question, this doubt. I've found that it really pays to investigate widely in equanimity, as Daniel recommends, including thoughts about progress and so on, to watch the back and forth between compassion and suffering evident in the discouragement and the impatience.
I've also found that Kenneth's advice to pump up the concentration skills at this point is very good advice indeed. Maybe Path can't be attained by sheer effort, I honestly don't know, but by pouring the energy of frustration and sheer effort looking for an outlet, into concentration is a very good thing to do in many ways. For one, the recurring mini-dark-night phases of the daily nana progression can be recognized more quickly and clearly, and bleed-through stopped early on, maybe even before affecting friends and family. Also, sitting in hard jhana is very satisfying, and clarity is a good bit more crisp for quite some time even after emerging. Maybe this is old news to you, but I've only hit hard jhana recently, and can't recommend it highly enough.
And if you're really impatient, there's always the "dry insight" method, falling off the end of vibration pulses, fluttering eyelids, flashing eyelid lights, whatever. I play with those from time to time as well.
Well make it - we made it to this point, after all.
Cheers (feeling like a Dhamma cheerleader, wondering what sensations make up this feeling),
Florian
Thanks for the added detail, Daniel. Great food for thought.
I recognize some of these experiences:rapid-fire all-round concentration bursts, dhamma daydreams, dropping out of meditation to find myself sitting on the floor with a bird chirping outside; but mixed in there are A&P-like energy releases, hard 4th jhana, 3characteristics style body twisting, sudden nama-rupe moments (or no-self, they seem related), centerpoint dissolution, the whole repertoire really, sometimes in the expected sequence, sometimes at random (or the sequence fast-forwarded over some of the intermediate bits).
There is a strong sense of something trying to cycle, judging from descriptions of past-stream-entry cycling, but unable to complete the cycle, running out of momentum and rolling around instead of completing the cycle.
As to integrating concentration vs. insight - yes, *but* I feel I actually neglected concentration, thinking it would kind be taken care of along with dedicated investigation - which it does, to an extent - but doing half an hour of pure concentration a day has done my investigation and clarity a lot of good, it's as if the "chore" of building up concentration in addition to all the investigation work has gone. I can literally concentrate on investigation, not having to knead my concentration into shape first, and it's actually more integrated with the separate concetration practice. This sounds quite silly, but I have no better way of expressing it at the moment.
Cheers,
Florian
I recognize some of these experiences:rapid-fire all-round concentration bursts, dhamma daydreams, dropping out of meditation to find myself sitting on the floor with a bird chirping outside; but mixed in there are A&P-like energy releases, hard 4th jhana, 3characteristics style body twisting, sudden nama-rupe moments (or no-self, they seem related), centerpoint dissolution, the whole repertoire really, sometimes in the expected sequence, sometimes at random (or the sequence fast-forwarded over some of the intermediate bits).
There is a strong sense of something trying to cycle, judging from descriptions of past-stream-entry cycling, but unable to complete the cycle, running out of momentum and rolling around instead of completing the cycle.
As to integrating concentration vs. insight - yes, *but*
I feel I actually neglected concentration, thinking it would kind be taken care of along with dedicated investigation - which it does, to an extent - but doing half an hour of pure concentration a day has done my investigation and clarity a lot of good, it's as if the "chore" of building up concentration in addition to all the investigation work has gone. I can literally concentrate on investigation, not having to knead my concentration into shape first, and it's actually more integrated with the separate concetration practice. This sounds quite silly, but I have no better way of expressing it at the moment.Cheers,
Florian
It turns out, I got Path a bit over a week ago (Apr 20)! I went on a short retreat at Spirit Rock (three nights), in which I practiced very earnestly (possibly freaking out some vipassana newcomers ). Following Ken's advice, I tried to get as much momentum as possible prior to the retreat (though at the time I felt that I was slacking and had accusatory thoughts about "undermining myself"... go figure). I didn't get fruition during the retreat, but I think it really did the trick, and I got it off-retreat the night of the day on which the retreat ended.
I guess what I can say is: yeah, it does seem to be necessary to let go, and yeah, that's hard to fake. I think the retreat was really good at rubbing in the unsatisfactoriness of experience: things are so beautiful while in Equanimity (maximally beautiful, I dare say), and at the same time, they're not enough, we want Path. Somehow I got out of the retreat with a very visceral OKness about the possibility of hanging out in Equanimity for a really long time, and this might've led to "Conformity" as per the map. Re-reading my somewhat melodharmatic post above, I wouldn't say that I became "disillusioned" with Equanimity... quite the contrary, in fact. It felt more like I embraced it.
(cont)
). Following Ken's advice, I tried to get as much momentum as possible prior to the retreat (though at the time I felt that I was slacking and had accusatory thoughts about "undermining myself"... go figure). I didn't get fruition during the retreat, but I think it really did the trick, and I got it off-retreat the night of the day on which the retreat ended.I guess what I can say is: yeah, it does seem to be necessary to let go, and yeah, that's hard to fake. I think the retreat was really good at rubbing in the unsatisfactoriness of experience: things are so beautiful while in Equanimity (maximally beautiful, I dare say), and at the same time, they're not enough, we want Path. Somehow I got out of the retreat with a very visceral OKness about the possibility of hanging out in Equanimity for a really long time, and this might've led to "Conformity" as per the map. Re-reading my somewhat melodharmatic post above, I wouldn't say that I became "disillusioned" with Equanimity... quite the contrary, in fact. It felt more like I embraced it.
(cont)
One thing about fruitions, if it's useful: in my case they don't happen when I think they will. At least so far, they haven't. Clearly with practice they can be induced (e.g. Kenneth's dry-insight technique), and I got one fruition while following Shinzen Young's "do nothing" instructions in an article recently linked from here, but I think it might be a good idea to get concentrated and just watch the vibrations, while getting as relaxed as possible. For instance, it seems that for me fruition never happens until I'm able to see through the cravings for it: the tension, the being "poised for it." It helps to look at those and see their three characteristics until they dissolve into vibrations. Then, when I least expect it, "zap."
[edit] Another thing: I obsessed a lot about trying to see the ends of sensations clearly. To be honest, even now they're not clear (or as clear as I imagined they could be). So it's totally possible to get fruition without that aspect becoming terribly obvious.
[Incidentally, I might sound non-chalant about the whole thing right now, but WOW, the aftereffects of that 1st fruition were quite the experience for almost a whole week. It's the first time that I took days off work because I was feeling too well. (Vacation days, in case a coworker reads this) ]
Good luck to everyone!
[edit] Another thing: I obsessed a lot about trying to see the ends of sensations clearly. To be honest, even now they're not clear (or as clear as I imagined they could be). So it's totally possible to get fruition without that aspect becoming terribly obvious.
[Incidentally, I might sound non-chalant about the whole thing right now, but WOW, the aftereffects of that 1st fruition were quite the experience for almost a whole week. It's the first time that I took days off work because I was feeling too well. (Vacation days, in case a coworker reads this
) ]Good luck to everyone!
Evidently it helped! Your description is very much in accord with my experience. A visceral OKness that cannot be faked, but which does blossom naturally (after shedding a few tears )
)
