Forum: Daniel's Practice Hut

Hi,

1. I would like to find out techniques to overcome torpor and so that I can maintain more continuous concentration.

(Note : torpor is defined as a state of mental or physical inactivity or insensibility. Lethargy.)

2. For the past few weeks, my only focus during sitting was to detect the transition between the point when my noting stopped and when thoughts arisen. This happened during both my Vipassana session (note rising and falling of abdomen)and Samatha session (note sensation below the nose). It is worst during Samatha session since there is only 1 object.

This happened when I was settled down in my meditation (about 15min into the session). What happened was when I note the rising and falling, the noting will stopped at around 10 counts, then there was "blank" (basically I didn't know that I had stopped noting), and then either I was in thoughts already or I realised that noting has stopped. I will then note the thoughts, and then start counting again. What I am puzzled is why despite of focus and intention to note, my noting consistently stopped at around 10 counts. 10 counts is about 35sec. Which means I can not maintain continuous concentration beyond that.

3. I must have tried this a few thousand times during the hours of sitting over that last few weeks.

4. I have made progress, but it is slow. Only on few occasions, I could detect that my noting has weaken, and stopped, and then thoughts took over.

5. I have tried the following with limited success:
a. In addition to noting rising/falling, add touching as an object.
b. In addition to noting rising/falling, add "seeing the back of eyelid to raise awareness".
c. while noting, check that I am relax, or tell myself to let go.
d. Try to examine the meditation object to raise interest. Actually I am not very sure how to do this.

(to cont)

(cont)

6. Is my intention to overcome torpor itself becoming a meditation hindrance?

7. Any suggestion on overcoming torpor?

Peong

Hey,

Hard to answer these questions, but maybe you're just lacking general passion for the practice. You might try getting in touch with why you're meditating in the first place, what your goal is with meditation, and anything else that might raise your level of excitement for the practice.

Another possibility is that you've come to believe that effort is a hindrance or is undesirable. I've seen that a lot in people and it could definitely lead to what you're experiencing. Effort is absolutely fine in most cases, including the jhanas, and especially including the 1st jhana whose primary object/quality is "sustained effort."

Best,
Trent

Author: Indrasnewt

Sloth and torpor is my "favorite" hindrance -- it comes up a lot in my meditation.

Here are some things that I've found helpful:

1. Starting vipassina or samatha meditation with metta for a few minutes (Bhante G suggests this in Mindfulness in Plain English)

2. Before beginning meditation, make a resolve to stay with the object of meditation for the good of all sentient beings (I believe Daniel Ingram suggests this in his book)

3. Do your meditation standing up instead of sitting on a cushion (Shinzen Young suggested this for severe sloth and torpor -- the more energetic posture does seem to work!)

I hope this is helpful. Perhaps a more advanced practitioner can shed some more light.

Jacob

hi im still a beginner but these have worked for me:

start a session with walking meditation (I learned to do walking meditation very late but i find it necessary especially because of my natural slothy personality) or i sometimes do 10 push ups.

do "sun salutation" yoga sequence (Strengthening and flexible back has been a big big help with my sitting practice) that I am equally devoted now to developing a Yoga back. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuvfHTaftLQ (doesnt have to be that detailed!)

Being mindful of consciousness as an object and when there is sloth. (4 foundations of mindfulness) then, when feeling it in low levels, try to kill it before it gives damage, straightening the back.
or doing moving hand gestures meditation (Mahasati) or mindfully stretching, or sometimes changing to walking meditation.

, I see that the things u try to overcome it, are mental processes only and not physical. Though, i am myself little experience in meditation, i notice too that it is often suggested in instructions to always maintain the same pose, but for me in slothiness, i can't seem to fix it with only maintaining the same pose...

Hi Peong,

I'm sure you'll keep getting good suggestions here. I'll chime in with my thoughts also.

I'm reminded of the myth of Da Mo (Bodhidarma) coming to China from India. He went to a certain monastery and found that all of the monks there were having trouble sitting for any length of time in their meditation, due to sluggishness and lethargy. So, he developed a bunch of exercises, Yi Jin Jing, to enliven their nervous systems, and get their energy flowing.

Question to consider:

* How are you doing in terms of focus and energy in the rest of your life when you are not doing formal practice? Make sure you've touched the common bases before you start to worry about it too much as a strict meditation issue. The common bases are: sleep, nutrition and physical activity.

Also, as Indrasnewt pointed out, switching to a standing posture is extremely helpful. I did this myself. In a way, standing meditation is the easiest. Of course, it's physically challenging, but it provides a natural guardrail for the attention.

I think I also tend towards torpor. In my first year of renewed practice, I used a combination of standing meditation and mental repetition of an important passage to build stamina.

Sometimes I would repeat the passage mentally without worrying about rhythm. Other times, I would repeat one word with the inbreath and the next with the outbreath. Other times I'd do one word with inbreath and outbreath, and then move to the next word. Finally, there were times when I'd focus on the content of the words, and not move on to the next word until I felt I'd truly experienced the word or words that I was repeating.

All of those helped me to deal with torpor. But that was obviously just my experience.

One other method that I found helpful.

I would summarize my intentions for practice in the form of a phrase. It actually wasn't so deliberate. The phrases just arose while I was practicing.

Some of my own phrases were:

'Just stand (sit) here and heal'
'What is real?'
'Allow it to be easy'

I'd know the phrases were right for me because they'd carry a charge of intention. At times, when my mind wandered, I would return to my phrase, and its charge would enliven my practice.

(That is related to what Yabaxoule wrote re: 'getting in touch with why you're meditating in the first place').

I'm getting ready, after an enforced break, to resume formal practice in the next 2 or 3 months. It will be interesting to see what comes up this time. Good luck with your practice!

Oh, one other thing:

The passage I used was one I'd read from Daoist author/adept Ni Hua Ching, entitled 'Daily Mental Discipline'. It read:

I am the offspring of the divine nature of the Universe
Through the positive, creative, and constructive nature of the Universe I have been given life
May pure, positive energy display itself in my nature and in my daily life
May only the highest energy manifest in my speech and my behavior
May I demonstrate the benevolence of Universal nature in my relationships with my fellow men and women
May pure, positive energy be the only reality of my being
May my spirit and mind reflect the sublime harmony and order of the Universe
and my body be a workshop of the subtle origin
When I have a meal may pure positive energy noursih me
When I sleep may a peaceful nature refresh me
When i work may expression of divine nature be my task
When I conduct my life may universal nature be my only way

So, 'Sila' stuff, I guess, in a nutshell.
I'm not saying you should use that. I'm just saying that I used it. I think you could just as easily use The Heart Sutra (nice and short). A poem or passage that you've authored yourself. And then of course there's good ol' letting (subjective experiencing of)phenomenon itself be your sutra, and Noting. Maybe try treating whatever you're noting as if it's a gift, like a sutra.

Good luck, again.

Thank you all for your feedback. I have started trying out your suggestion.

1. Previously, I started my daily first session with Homage (Namo Tassa..) followed by 15min of Metta Meditation.

2. Over the last few days, I added verbalization of specify aspiration for each sitting to see if torpor can be weaken.

3. I also attempted standing meditation, which I have never tried before. What I do is to sit until torpor set in. Then I will stand up for the rest of the session. I find this helps in the sense that I can sustain concentration longer. Hopefully, concentration does not weaken as I get used to the standing posture.

Peong