A Non-Dual Safe-Space

A Non-Dual Safe-Space Wet Paint 7/11/09 6:09 PM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Wet Paint 7/11/09 6:40 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Kenneth Folk 7/12/09 11:41 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Wet Paint 7/13/09 7:27 PM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Dan Bartlett 7/13/09 8:04 PM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Jackson Wilshire 7/14/09 3:25 AM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Wet Paint 7/14/09 5:40 AM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Wet Paint 7/14/09 6:05 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Amr El-Nowehy 7/15/09 3:43 AM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Klaus Lundahl Engelholt 9/12/09 3:28 AM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Wet Paint 7/15/09 6:44 AM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Amr El-Nowehy 7/15/09 7:10 AM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Wet Paint 7/15/09 7:59 AM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Amr El-Nowehy 7/15/09 9:08 AM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Amr El-Nowehy 7/15/09 9:23 AM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Wet Paint 7/15/09 9:30 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Martin Potter 7/16/09 12:49 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Martin Potter 7/16/09 3:05 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Amr El-Nowehy 7/16/09 4:17 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space triple think 7/16/09 9:01 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Amr El-Nowehy 7/16/09 9:23 AM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space triple think 7/16/09 9:23 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Wet Paint 7/17/09 4:36 AM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Chris Marti 7/17/09 4:58 AM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Jackson Wilshire 7/17/09 5:23 AM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Chris Marti 7/17/09 5:26 AM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Kenneth Folk 7/17/09 9:27 AM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space tarin greco 7/17/09 9:45 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Wet Paint 7/17/09 4:40 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space triple think 7/17/09 11:47 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Amr El-Nowehy 7/20/09 10:42 AM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Amr El-Nowehy 7/20/09 10:43 AM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Wet Paint 7/20/09 3:22 PM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Wet Paint 8/11/09 4:50 AM
RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space Amr El-Nowehy 8/11/09 9:54 AM
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/11/09 6:09 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/11/09 6:09 PM

A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan
Forum: The Direct Path

I'm creating a thread devoted solely to the direct path. My hope is that the conversation here will focus on exploring what is already the case and helping to knock the legs out from under our ideas about what we may or may not have or need especially in regard to spirituality. While much of the DhO provides practical support for meditative attainment, this thread is intended to focus on what cannot be lost or gained. To the extent that what I am calling for here runs counter to the vision of some DhO moderators, I am hoping that they can practice a stance of tolerance and respect for plurality in allowing this non-dual safe space to exist.

Let's explore together!
Beth
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/11/09 6:40 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: telecaster

Please write more about your approach.
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/12/09 6:50 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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Author: ThePoorMan

Hi, Telecaster,

Thanks for asking! The approach that most resonates with me is heavily influenced by the teaching of Adyashanti and involves two interpenetrating components: inquiry and relaxation.

The first component is honestly inquiring into the nature of self and reality and seeing what is true. There are certain questions, like “Who is this experience happening to?” or “Who am I?” that help to facilitate this exploration.

Some of us who have been on spiritual paths have already had openings (or A&P experiences) through which we’ve seen the truth. After the first of these experiences, we typically know the truth more than we know anything else in our lives; however, we often feel that we no longer have access to the clear seeing that graced us during our “special” experience. Through inquiry, we can find out whether what was first seen during that special experience is still the case now.

The second component of the approach involves relaxing into the truth that has been realized. In meditation and in life, the conditioned energies of the mind and body arise just as before. Our thoughts, especially our spiritual thoughts, will try to convince us that we have a problem—that we need to fix ourselves, purify our karma, get back to our peak experiences and maintain them forever. But from the point of view of reality, there is no problem, has never been a problem. In fact, even these thoughts saying that we have a problem are not a problem. So, we really don’t have to do anything. We sit quietly and let things be exactly as they are—calm, crazy, quiet, noisy, happy, fearful, whatever. We move in the world and let our movements be exactly as they are—speaking, staying quiet, getting a lot done, accomplishing little, being socially engaged, being solitary, no matter. We realize that we can stop pretending to divide from ourselves.

Beth
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Kenneth Folk, modified 14 Years ago at 7/12/09 11:41 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/12/09 11:41 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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Hi Beth!

Welcome to DhO. I love what you are saying here. The direct path teachings touch me deeply and I'm glad you've created a safe-space where they can be discussed. I often receive messages from members who are interested in non-duality and are asking for more such content on DhO. I hope they and others will take this opportunity to post their experiences and questions here.

As a primer for those who don't have much exposure to direct path teachings like Advaita or Dzogchen, here is a video from a wonderful Advaita teacher named Mooji:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pS_wPeDxDQ

And here is the legendary Tibetan Buddhist Trungpa Rinpoche, talking about "spiritual materialism:"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKp14KfsFQc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCisd0i8RW0&feature=related

Enjoy, everyone! And as Advaita master Ramana Maharshi used to say, "Be as you are."

Kenneth
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/13/09 11:15 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/13/09 11:15 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan

Hi Kenneth,

Thanks for your warm welcome! I too hope that folks who are interested or curious about non-duality will feel encouraged to join in the discussion here. Thanks also for the great videos that you posted. I especially love that Mooji video and find it so succinct and helpful. Plus, what's not cool about enlightened wisdom in a Jamaican accent?

Wishing you well,
Beth
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/13/09 1:21 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: sokyu

To Beth and Kenneth,
Ok I am outing the two of you for those who do not yet know. These two are married. He is the arahant and she is the non-dualist. And if someone was to paint a thanka painting of these two archetypes what would that look like!? I would suspect that you both have had some rather interesting discussions already on this topic and if you would not mind ,how about letting us in on some of your favorite ones. Wishing you well? Love Shoshana
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/13/09 3:28 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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Author: telecaster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9QUiPXGaYc

The above link is to a video of "tony parsons" a non-dualist. There are many more.
Is the idea that if one just understands the stuff he and other non-dualists are saying that there will be some kind of transformation into some kind of final understanding of one's true nature? Liberation? etc.?
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triple think, modified 14 Years ago at 7/13/09 3:29 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/13/09 3:29 PM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
nice place.

house warming present.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_27.html

best wishes
metta & upekkha
-nathan
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/13/09 3:46 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: garyrh

With non dual there is nothing to be understood, in the conventional sense, and nothing to transform. Non duality is prior to the discrimating mind that understands or "thinks" something needs to change or transform. Awakening is the word often used to convey a relization of what is. I am being a bit of a wordsmith, but the distinctions are the core of non dual realizations.
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/13/09 4:06 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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Author: telecaster

Not that I understand "cycling," but once non-dualists become "liberated" do they cycle? Or do they enjoy some special freedom from such things?
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/13/09 5:29 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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Author: garyrh

I guess you are talking about cycling thru incarnations. There is the conditioned and the unconditioned, the unconditioned is not affected by the conditioned. There can be no greater freedom than recognising what you are (and knowing what you are not). Dual or non dual the dharma is to see things as they really are. With such freedom, there is nothing from which to be liberated.
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/13/09 7:27 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan

Hi Shoshana!

It's so funny how you outed us! Kenneth and I figured it was just a matter of time before it came out we're married, but we thought it might be best for the DhO community to meet me with beginner's mind. Being out is nice too. It did feel a little bit disingenuous (and silly!) to be closeted. In the interest of relationship disclosure, Shoshana and her husband were my first spiritual teachers! She has been a great inspiration and spiritual friend to me for many years.

Love,
Beth
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Dan Bartlett, modified 14 Years ago at 7/13/09 8:04 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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This does seem to be the case with some non-dual practitioners. One could criticise this idea (from a developmental view) by saying that non-dualists have to work to keep up this awareness, have to gain stability in their realisation. But then again, non-dualists might claim they are realising the deathless/timeless which, errr, isn't easy to forget! From a few videos/interviews I've been looking into recently, it seems that non-dualists have rather distinct progressive awakenings, just like developmental (i.e. vipassana) practitioners.

For example, in this Adyashanti interview (The Taboo of Enlightenment - http://is.gd/1y7wH) the interviewer writes: "At age twenty-five, while sitting alone on his cushion, Gray [Adyashanti] had a classic kensho, or awakening experience, in which - as he describes it now - he "penetrated to the emptiness of all things and realized that the Buddha I had been chasing was what I was.""

and later "Finally, at thirty-one, Gray had an experience of awakening that immediately put to rest all his questions and doubts. Two years later Arvis Justi asked him to teach, and he changed his name to Adyashanti, Sanskrit for "primordial peace.""

(note: Adyashanti practiced Zen style Buddhism for 12 or so years before his non-dual focus came about.)

I have a hunch non-dualists and vipassana style practitioners cross paths at many points, so I keep my practice varied! I don't know of many teachers/practitioners who have gone non-dual all the way - many seem to have started with Theravada/Zen style sitting. The core thread that seems to unite both practices is the realisation of emptiness.
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 14 Years ago at 7/14/09 3:25 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/14/09 3:25 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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Hey Dan,

I have the same hunch, only because that's how the practice has unfolded (and continues to unfold) for me. I made a great deal of progress via Mahasi Style vipassana, but was clueless about non-dual awareness until recently. It's quite easy to see how the experiences and paths are different. It's another thing entirely to see how they converge and support each other. The developmental and the ever-already work together quite beautifully.

I think Ken Wilber's work on states and stages provides a decent explanation of how the developmental and ever-already converge. Virtually anyone can access the various states of consciousness with good pointing out instructions. The developmental aspect is, as you say, how one makes progress in stabilizing this perspective until it is more-or-less their baseline reality.

But enough about development. There are other places at the DhO that are better suited to talk about that ;-)

~Jackson
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/14/09 5:40 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: sokyu

Dear Beth,
You say in your approach in post #2 that you use "two interpenetrating components: inquiry and relaxation". It seems as if the inquiry is very much looking at the characteristic of no seperate sense of self. And the relaxation is being with experience on the macro level as it arises in "real life" as often quite elaborate mental formations as opposed to a more micro level as frequently used in some schools of vippassana practice. Underlying it is the knowing or perhaps sometimes just the remembrance of the truth as already known.
So it seems to me that the practice mentioned in your post here is actually quite similar to what is being discussed in Daniel's book but his work is being done by applying the three characteristics on a micro mindfulness level and this non-dual is working more on a macro mindfulness level. Or am I missing something here? Shoshana
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/14/09 6:05 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan

Dear Shoshana,

I don't feel comfortable saying that by inquiry I mean looking at the characteristic of "no separate sense self."

For me, inquiry is a relaxed questioning and exploration of what's really going on and what we actually are. It’s the honest and sincere looking inward that is most important—more than looking to find anything specific or to see any characteristic. It’s easy to fixate upon concepts and to squash our natural curiosity when we think we know what we are looking for.

“Who am I?” is the quintessential question to start with. And when we look, we can't find a separate self—true. But the exploration may need to keep going in order to for us to fully understand—in the depth of our being—what is the case. What is this nothing that I am? What qualities does it have? What does it want? Where does it begin? Where does it end? For me, “looking at the characteristic of no self” (in the Vipassana sense) doesn’t quite capture the fullness and the ineffability of what is actually here.
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/14/09 6:12 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan

Through inquiry we can also examine the conditioned stories that the mind generates in order to reestablish itself after it has been seen through. My mind’s favorite desperate protests include: “But what about my life?!” “What do I do?!” (to get enlightened/get rid of my fear) “I don’t know how to do this (get enlightened)!” “I don’t understand (enlightenment)! At times, in response to these internal exclamations, I have stopped and asked “Who is worried about her life?” “Who wants to know what to do?” “Who wants to get enlightened?” Experiencing viscerally the deep fear underlying those desperate protests, I have also explored, “Who is afraid?” or “Who is having this experience of I am afraid.” Again, there is nobody here, but referring to that indescribable presence as the characteristic “no self” doesn’t seem to capture it for me.

By relaxation, I mean being as you are. There isn’t a deliberate effort to notice any type of sensation macro or micro. In meditation, I sit quietly with no agenda. My experiences vary and I could say that at times there are macro sensations (such as complex mental formations), at times more micro sensations (vibrations, bliss, etc.); however, I’m not deliberately taking any of these sensations as objects and it truly doesn’t matter what happens. In fact, the experiences that I am having seem more and more irrelevant to what is already the case AND equally participatory in what is already the case.

You wrote, “underlying it is the knowing or perhaps sometimes just the remembrance of the truth as already known.” Lately, for me...now, for me, the truth IS—that’s it. It seems too fully present to refer to it as “underlying.”

I haven’t read Daniel’s book, but I have had some conversations with him and I have a sense of his approach from talking to Kenneth. From my perspective the way this awakening thing is happening for me feels quite different from the way that Daniel teaches.

LOVE,
Beth
Amr El-Nowehy, modified 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 3:43 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 3:43 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 25 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
I’m relatively new to vipassana (4 months) and absolutely new to the direct path (few days). Kenneth is the one to thank/blame for getting me interested in the direct path.

I have few questions, but before I start I’d like to make sure that I’m starting on the right foot here. The idea of True Self/Nothingness doesn’t seem to me too difficult to understand conceptually. For that very reason, I doubt that I understand it correctly as the gurus seem to struggle to convey it to their students.

My conceptual understanding is that the True Self/Nothingness is the awareness that our thoughts and sensations appear to. It doesn’t make sense to try to observe that True Self/Nothingness because whatever could be observed is not it but is just another object.

If we think of our existence as a silent movie, then our images of ourselves and others would be the characters (objects) that appear on a background (the screen). Our True Self/Nothingness is the screen (background). Now add thoughts, sounds, smells, touch, sense of time and 3 dimensional space, ..etc as objects to that background and we get closer from the analogy of flat screen to the True Self/Nothingness.

Now, the struggle is: how we can identity with that True Self/Nothingness experientially.

Before I go on, am I on the right track?

Amr
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 6:44 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan

Hi Amr,

Good to meet you! Your concepts sound pretty good to me (as far as concepts go). I like the movie metaphor.

You wrote, "It doesn’t make sense to try to observe that True Self/Nothingness because whatever could be observed is not it but is just another object." I would let this idea go. You can always take it up again if you find it to be true for yourself, but I'll be surprised if you do.

Also, you wrote, "Now, the struggle is: how we can identity with that True Self/Nothingness experientially." Looking towards experience is the key. Concepts never seem satisfy. But I would be open to the possibility that a struggle might not be necessary.

Looking forward to more,
Beth
Amr El-Nowehy, modified 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 7:10 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 7:10 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 25 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Hi Beth, nice to meet you too.

"It doesn’t make sense to try to observe that True Self/Nothingness ...", in response you wrote, "I would let this idea go. You can always take it up again if you find it to be true for yourself, but I'll be surprised if you do."

This is a key part in my understanding and very short practice. So I'd like to get clearer understanding.

If it's possible to observe the True Self, who is observing then? Sometimes I find myself identifying with a certain part or sensation in the body, namely: lower front of the neck and sometimes deep in the chest. But then who is sensing that sensation? The only answer I found so far is to "be" the awareness of the sensation. Or am I going for an already preconceived answer here?

thanks,

Amr
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 7:59 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 7:59 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan

Dear Amr,

I appreciate your inellectual integrity.

I came to spirituality as a very heady, intellectual person. I had been studying philosophy, critical theory, and literature when I experienced my first big spiritual opening. My thinking mind wanted to understand what had happened and it quickly built concepts around the opening experience. These concepts became very dear to me and felt like "key parts in my understanding."

Early on in my relationship with my first teacher, she recognized what my thinking mind was doing. She told me, "This is not something that the mind can understand. Mind, this was not meant for you." Now Amr, I'm repeating this to you: "This is not something your thinking mind can understand. Mind, this was not meant for you."

Amr, be willing to have an understanding with no parts!
I can give you and answer to your question, but it won't make sense unless you've seen it for yourself. The "true self" is self aware. It knows itself without being two. That's it.

My question for you is, "Who is trying to figure this out?" or "Who is confused?"

With warm regard,
Beth
Amr El-Nowehy, modified 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 9:08 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 9:08 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 25 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
I understand (may be just intellectually) that I'm not supposed to answer those question intellectually. I'm supposed to use them as pointers. But here what happens in my mind and you tell me if I am in the right direction...

Q: "Who is trying to figure this out?" or "Who is confused?"

my thinking mind answers: "I".
my thinking mind asks: "what is I?".

Then I stop thinking and just look for that "I" and I identify myself with my awareness. Then I have two choices:
1. Iook at that awareness an object and I end up with blankness. Nice one.
2. I tell myself to be the awareness and try to relax into it.

What is missing here?

Amr
Amr El-Nowehy, modified 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 9:23 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 9:23 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 25 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
...or skip all the of that and just relax to being...

Is that it?
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 9:30 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: sokyu

I think there may be many of us vipassana/non-dualist /etc. mutts at this point. And as Jackson says "its quite easy to see how the experiences and paths are different and its another thing entirely to see how they converge and support each other." In my own practice they are so utterly merged now that I could truly not say from moment to moment if asked to what tradition do I attribute what is happening, if any. I admit to deep gratitude for the vajrayana addition of skillful means, albeit I am guessing that many vaj-purists would not be so happy with us mutts use of what we call skillful means.
Shoshana
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 1:44 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 1:44 PM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan

"What is missing here?" --Amr,

Amr,

Nothing is missing. You can't go wrong no matter what you do.

The approach that I am most comfortable with is more interested in the first choice you presented. You look for the "I" who is experiencing confusion and you come up with blankness. That's interesting!

So you live your life centered around a sense of "I," but when you look to see what that "I" actually is, all you find is blankness? Am I understanding you correctly?

If so, I would like to know more about this blankness that you find.

Does it have any qualities?

Does it want anything?

Where does it begin?

Where does it end?

With warm regards,
Beth
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tarin greco, modified 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 2:33 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 2:33 PM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
Hi Beth,

Can you see the difference between these lines of questioning: 'who is
afraid?/who is having this experience of i am afraid?' and 'what is
fear?/what is this i that am afraid?' and if so, can you see that just
as the inquiry is different, so might the findings and result be
different?

Tarin
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 3:34 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 3:34 PM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan

Hi Tarin,

Yes, I can see the difference between the two lines of questioning. And yes, I can see that just as the inquiry is different, so might the result be different.

Why do you ask?

Beth
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 4:36 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 4:36 PM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: garyrh

Non dual realization is not of mind it is prior to mind. If you say to yourself "I'm suppose to use them [ the questions ] as pointers" this is of mind. Likewise if you say to yourself "be the awareness and try to relax into it" this is of mind. The relaxation required is not to stop the mind with the mind, rather it is to observe mind. Just observe mind, nothing else!
After mind asks a question like "who am I?" you may get a sense of something other than mind. Now that I have said that, if you find yourself looking for something it is of mind to be observed emoticon.
If you have something to achieve, somewhere to go, something to find, aversion, clinging ... they are all of mind, only to be observe.

Observe the things that complicate or add to your essence. You already are what you are, the only thing you can "do" is observe all that comes and goes. This is what you "relax" into.
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 9:30 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 9:30 PM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: garyrh

Daniel,

Can I chime in. What if I tell you I know something and I am not an arahat? If you ask me to quantify it further I really cannot with your terms.

[edit] There is a knowing aside from disecting phenomena.
Gary
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 10:30 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/15/09 10:30 PM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: garyrh

For the record I am not making any statement about my attainments here, but only talk about my progress. I used the word dissecting because vipassana does this with phenomena. An analogy, three people work on a maths problem one works the solution step by step, another just sees a solution intuitively and another uses a little of both. They all get to the same place all solving the same problem. But if someone were to ask of the intuitor where did the idea come from what answer can he give? I know something other than mind and direct path takes me there vipassana doesn't. But I do not discount the value of vipassana.
Martin Potter, modified 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 12:49 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 12:49 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 86 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
I used self-inquiry to challenge the assumption that there is an 'I' who is meditating or who will attain enlightenment or various experiences and stages. I felt that vipassana leaves a blind spot here that caused me to habitually identify with some thoughts which created an extra knot of grasping.

As for the 'presence' thing, I can sort of see what non-dualists mean, there's a feeling that I exist and am aware which never leaves, I travelled for 12 hours yesterday and at every point of the journey it felt like I was 'here', as though I hadn't really moved at all.

When a sentence hits me very hard, e.g. John Wheeler: "there is some old idea hanging in about an entity that can or cannot 'get' this." or "are you a being that can move in and out of it?", this can lead to a kind of effortlessness and refreshing feeling, although it's not long at all before the 'I'-assumption creeps back in and there's a sense that 'I' have to get somewhere or do something. Also, a slight increase in precision in this state seems to lead straight back to vipassana (i.e. it doesn't seem to hold up under close examination?)

- Martin
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tarin greco, modified 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 1:40 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 1:40 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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because as instructive and important as the former line of inquiry has been to me, i find the results of the latter far more sensible and thus preferable.

what the former has led me to: no 'person' who is afraid - there is only Awareness itself, manifesting as this world, this human, this situation, this fear.

what the latter has led me to: no 'person' who is afraid, because no fear.

i am contributing this distinction to this thread because i consider both to be non-dualistic approaches, in that the question only makes sense beyond the subject/object duality, but i find, from my own experience, that the similarity ends there. anyone who wants to take 'the direct path' might be interested that this difference between the two investigations exists, and that the difference isn't merely semantic, but leads to vastly different results. have you ever checked out this one for yourself?

tarin
Martin Potter, modified 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 3:05 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 3:05 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 86 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Here's a nice quote from Jack Kornfield:

"When Maharaj spoke of the I am or I amness, he spoke of it as the bridge between that which is temporal
and that which is eternal. To recognise that all the forms of senses of seeing, and hearing and smelling and
thinking are changing, and to step outside that, to get bigger, one becomes, if you will, the witness to
these things. And this is what he calls the I amness. Everything changes except this witnessing which can
know what is so, and when you rest in that witnessing, in that I amness, then as a bridge it becomes possible
to turn that witnessing back to itself and to see that there is no-one who witnesses, that witnessing appears
like the sun does in the morning and disappears, and beyond that is space and emptiness and what he called
love and wisdom"
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 3:06 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 3:06 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan

Dear Gary,

I like what you wrote yesterday! Especially this:

“If you have something to achieve, somewhere to go, something to find, aversion, clinging ... they are all of mind, only to be observed. Observe the things that complicate or add to your essence. You already are what you are, the only thing you can ‘do’ is observe all that comes and goes. This is what you "relax" into.”

Perhaps dependent on our conditioning, we use different words help to unlock our experiences at different times. A few years ago, it was really liberating for me to realize that I (the conventional, small I) didn’t have to “do” anything. As I gave up the agenda of training my mind and of working toward any particular experience, I was stunned to find that on the deepest level, I really didn’t care what what was arising. I was untouched by any of it, but also I was all of it.

Lately, I realize that I can “do” anything. In other words, I can do whatever I am inclined to do without any possibility of messing up the ever-present nature. Some experiences may seem to momentarily “complicate my essence,” but I’m starting to see that this is just “the natural great perfection” masquerading as complication or division. I had heard things like this before, but now, as I am seeing it spontaneously, I am joyfully stunned. It also seems like its harder for complication or division to take hold for very long when it can't convince me that it is a problem.

Wishing you well,
Beth
Amr El-Nowehy, modified 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 4:17 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 4:17 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 25 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Beth,

While it sounds assuring to say that I can't go wrong, to be honest, I can't get it when you say that. What I'm trying to do is to find the "right" direction then delve deeper into it. Please let me know if you think this is not a helpful approach to start with.

I'm not sure that I identify myself with that blankness. In my world, I have to start with some assumption when I look for an 'I". Assuming that "I" is an object to be looked for, I find my awareness staring at itself as another object. This "leads" to the blankness I'm talking about.

I can't say that I identify with that blankness. It's as if my mind freezes and goes blank. All your questions become irrelevant, there is no thinking. I don't think it's very different from the space that exists between thoughts or sensations.

It's a restful state, that's all.

Am I on the "right" track?

Thanks Beth,

Amr
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 5:58 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 5:58 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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Author: ThePoorMan

Hey Daniel!

I'm happy that you wrote. Everything that you described about Vipassana sounds great, and I don't find fault with any of it! I don't believe that the non-dual approach is better. I don't think I ever said that. I’m just inclined towards the direct-path. I started this thread because I thought it might be nice to meet some friends who share this inclination and/or are interested in exploring this pathless path together.

Some of the instructions from the "insight teachers" really resonate with me, especially the instructions to become more "clear about the way experience actually is." I don't feel mentally sharp enough or ambitious enough to tease out all of the nuances that differentiate between the vipassana approach the approach that I am drawn to. Also, there are many different non-dual approaches with variations among them. I only feel qualified to speak about my own experiences, which have been heavily influenced by Adyashanti’s approach (which is very open and dynamic).

“On the actual level of practice” the insight approach seems centered around the continuous investigation of sensations--"all sensations that seem to make up both what appears to be me and what appears to be not me, what appears to be the 'I' as well as everything else, as well as all thoughts and emotions, body and mind." In the approach that I'm inclined towards, it’s not common to investigate in that type of continuous way (Although, at certain stages, someone may be continuously asking “Who?” all day long).
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 6:01 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 6:01 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan

Also, in Adyashanti's sangha it's more common to investigate the ground upon which all sensations arise than the changing sensations themselves. It would be welcome to also investigate a particular sensory experience, such as the experience of fear ("What is fear?" as Tarin mentioned). And there could indeed be times when that type of inquiry seems to be useful, appropriate, and fruitful, but investigating sense experiences is generally not the focus of inquiry. Of course, through inquiry, we come to see that those sense experiences are not other than light of original mind--not two from the ground on which they appear.

Also, the non-dual teaching that I most resonate with helps me to see from the beginning that everything is already accepted and known. The very task that the vipassana teacher prescribes is already accomplished. I don’t have to dedicate myself to achieving it once I see that that I am that which accepts, that which knows, and that which is not other than all phenomena. Awareness is already aware. For me, this takes all of the pressure off. As someone who has felt a lot of pressure to get this enlightenment thing done and who has suffered immensely in her spiritual efforts, I can’t tell you what a relief it is to stop.

It’s already done. Whatever happens is equally okay. My life is none of my business. Arhatship is none of my business; although my conditioned mind still thinks it sure sounds nice. This moment is self-fulfilled, and I’m not even an arhat.

You wrote, “How are you so sure that you shouldn’t just get arhatship.” All that I’m sure of is that the I who can get anything will never be satisfied and the I who doesn’t need anything is already satisfied.

Love,
Beth
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 6:26 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 6:26 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan

"because as instructive and important as the former line of inquiry has been to me [Who is afraid ?], i find the results of the latter [What is fear?] far more sensible and thus preferable.

what the former has led me to: no 'person' who is afraid - there is only Awareness itself, manifesting as this world, this human, this situation, this fear.

what the latter has led me to: no 'person' who is afraid, because no fear."-Tarin

Hi Tarin,

I think that my reply to Daniel may cover my perspective on the issue that you raised. Investigating fear has been useful to me in my practice too. I don't agree that it's results are "more sensible" than looking at "who am I." I would say that both can be useful and powerful, and that there is a time for both.

Be well,
Beth
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triple think, modified 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 9:01 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 9:01 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Hi Beth, great to have you here. I'm a total mutt, poly-mutt for that matter, but "can't go wrong"? Here's where I part company with this whole approach. No offense intended. So, in the interest of safety and all that, see you all later, and all the best with it folks.
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 9:16 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 9:16 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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Author: ThePoorMan

Hi Nathan,

I'm not offended. Thanks for respecting the intended boundaries of this thread. Perhaps our paths will cross again later.

Wishing you peace,
Beth
Amr El-Nowehy, modified 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 9:23 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 9:23 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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Thanks Gary, but I'm not sure how ithis is different from vipassana then?

And when I ask the question "who am I?", doesn't that mean I'm looking for something? What is the point of the question? Is this supposed to work like magic?

Amr
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triple think, modified 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 9:23 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 9:23 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
hi Beth
Cool. I hope so, I'd likely benefit from that.
upekkha
nathan
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 12:30 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 12:30 PM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: garyrh

Hi Amr,

WIth vipassana you have Enlightenment to achieve and when you get there all your questions will be answered. Are you doing vipassana? You can not do vipassana and direct path at the same time.
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 3:51 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/16/09 3:51 PM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan

Hi Amr,

When you ask the question "Who am I," you are simply looking to your experience to see who is at the center of your experience.

Right now, you are experiencing seeing, feeling, breathing, hearing etc. It's easy to turn your attention to any of those things. If I say, pay attention to the inhale and the exhale of the breath--no problem, right? Or pay attention to sound--you can do that. Now what I'm inviting you to do is to pay attention to that which the seeing, feeling, breathing, and hearing is happening to. It isn't a trick, and it isn't supposed to work like magic.

Yesterday, you mentioned that you find blankness. I'm very interested in this blankness!

Please tell me more about it! (Unless you don't want to emoticon )

Also, I wouldn't worry too much about whether you're doing vipassana or direct path. One woman's opinion.

Warmly,
Beth
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tarin greco, modified 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 12:16 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 12:16 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
beth,

no, the line of inquiry i propose is not the same as the vipassana one, the one you addressed in your response to daniel. it is not merely the examination of the sensory experience of a feeling, in this case, fear (as in 'what is this fear that i am afraid of?'), that i am proposing; rather, it is the examination of the very being of fear itself (as in 'what is this i that is afraid?'). can you see the difference?

if so, let me point out how this leads to wholly different results, and therefore, why it is a distinction worth making and why i called the line of inquiry i propose 'more sensible' (than inquiring into 'who is afraid?' or, for that matter, inquiring sensately into 'what is this fear that i am afraid of?'):

examining the matter of what it is, exactly, that is this 'i' that is afraid, sheds light on how 'i' am 'my fear' and 'my fear' is 'me' .. the clear seeing of which cancels out the entire matter. end, finish, no being and no fear (as different from the transcendence of fear - that is, the experience of a spontaneous, natural, free-flowing fear that arises from the ground of being).

examining the 'who' who is afraid, on the other hand, causes one to become aware of an Awareness that includes, but is not limited to, the fear (that is experienced by this Awareness, or as this Awareness, etc), but does nothing to end the fear.. only the concern with whether there is fear or not.

(cont.)
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tarin greco, modified 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 12:18 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 12:18 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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and on another hand still, examining the sensory experience of fear by breaking it down into sensations leads to a clear experience of how all things, including fear, are sensations that are experienced as awareness, or by an awareness which is merely an aspect of those sensations, etc.. yet also does nothing to end the fear (fear still arises and passes, albiet now 'spontaneously').

essentially, this third way leads to the same result as the second way, which is to produce a transcendent state of being (or Being, for those who prefer) that is untouched by fear and is thus unconcerned it. these two inquiries are certainly not going to lead to the end of it. of the three ways i mention above, only the first one ends the fear and the being that is implied in the feeling's very existence.

the absence of this singular phenomenon, of both being and feelings, is a freedom i find preferable to the condition of transcendental freedom that either of the other two inquiries (self-inquiry on one hand and sensation-analysis on the other) leads to.

(cont.)
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tarin greco, modified 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 12:23 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 12:23 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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to be clear, i am only using fear as an example, and though it is a particularly poignant one, what i say about fear actually holds true for any other feeling or experience of being, be it anger or sorrow or compassion or jealousy or love, etc. the examination of how 'i' am 'my feelings' and 'my feelings' are 'me' ends both being and feelings.

with regard to preference or sensibility, what one would find preferable or more sensible depends on one's agenda (the implied reason for one's practice). my agenda is to be deeply and irrefutably at ease all the time, and to do nothing to encourage others to be ill at ease ever (which is already implied by being at ease myself, as i cannot be happy while i am being harmful), which i accomplish, both gradually and immediately, by paying attention to the very 'me' that exists *as* (as opposed to both *having* or *not having*) 'my feelings', and *not* by looking at Awareness, or the ground from which all things arise (or the same by any other name). when carefully considered, which line of inquiry makes sense to you will depend on what yours (your agenda) is.

if i put it this way: is your agenda to be unconcerned with fear, or is it to not be afraid ever again? or put another way: is your agenda to stop being concerned with how you may harm others with harmful intentions and feelings, or to stop having or being those intentions and feelings entirely?

the me, the latter is true heaven on earth.. the former, an incomplete solution.

tarin
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 2:12 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 2:12 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan

Hi Tarin,

Let’s start at the end of your note, which I think may get to the heart of the matter.

“If i put it this way: is your agenda to be unconcerned with fear, or is it to not be afraid ever
again? or put another way: is your agenda to stop being concerned with how you may harm others with harmful intentions and feelings, or to stop having or being those intentions and feelings entirely?”-Tarin

I don’t have an agenda because I see that the only self that exists is pure awareness itself, which truly has no agenda and transcends all conditioned phenomena. At the same time, all conditioned things are the play of pure awareness, arising out of that awareness, dissolving back into that awareness, and never, for a moment being other than that awareness. Part of the awesomeness of pure awareness is that it can create the experience of separation (which we are all familiar with) even though it is the only game in town.

I am that pure awareness. I am all things. I am the only game in town. (By the way, this isn’t about the personal me; this isn’t about Beth! Beth is just an insubstantial display). As pure awareness, why would I want to get rid of any aspect of experience, including fear and including being concerned with how my feelings, intentions, and actions impact people? I am creating every experience. As the infinite, I am showing what I can become.

When this body-mind display understands the truth of it’s being, it is freed from trying to find peace of mind in the arena of the false self. This is very fortunate for this body-mind because peace cannot be found in that arena (samsara). As Adyashanti says, the small (false) self can never find lasting peace because it knows (on some level) that it is a fake. On some level, it knows that it is the infinite pretending to be limited. It is only when we stop pretending to be other then we are that we can rest as the peace that is our true nature.
(cont.)
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 2:15 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 2:15 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan


I (Beth) forget and remember my true nature many times throughout a day. Lately, the forgetting doesn’t last very long and there is a lot of peace and joy. My agenda, however, is not to have peace and joy. My agenda is to be my authentic self, to be just as I am. Since this is already the case, you could say that I have no agenda.

So that’s where I’m coming from, Tarin. Since we have different agendas, it may not be helpful for us to evaluate and compare different types of investigation for their usefulness. Do you agree?

Wishing you well,
Beth
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 4:12 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 4:12 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan

A few more thoughts. . .

If what I wrote in the last post doesn't make sense to you (not just Tarin but anyone), maybe this will help.

From the perspective of my small self experience, my agenda is and has always been peace of mind. It seems that the desire for peace of mind is at of root of of my striving, whether that striving to be liked, to be successful, to find love, to find emotional healing, to find the right profession, to feel good physically, to be comfortable, to have financial security, to keep my loved ones healthy, and of course--the big one--to get enlightened.

For those who want peace of mind and cannot, for the life of them, understand what I am saying when I say things like, "You are already at peace,"
the most direct way to find peace of mind is to simply find out the truth. You don't need to have a special experience to know the truth. You can just earnestly look at your experience and find out who it's happening to. Our minds often make this very simple exploration complicated. Indeed, the truth is so simple that its easy to overlook. Having a friend or a guide to help point us in the right direction and keep us honest can be helpful. This is a new role for me, but I am willing to have a go at being that friend for people who are interested.

Warm regards,
Beth
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 4:36 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 4:36 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: garyrh

I have been thinking about how just observing works. Our attention is on the things of the mind, and while there the background is not noticed. It is like a portrait photo the focus is on the subject and not the vast background. To just observe shifts the focus to the background. You cannot think the focus off the subject because the mind is the subject, but you can bring the attention to the thinking with observation and shift the focus to the attention itself. Progress (if you like) is to keep the focus on the background that is always present, or easily move there. Beth does not have an agenda of peace and joy because this is the subject (of mind), she remembers her true self that which is attending. Most difficulty seem to arise where the subject is mistaken for the bakground. I seem to have form a rule that if I am using my mind it is the subject.
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Chris Marti, modified 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 4:58 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 4:58 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 379 Join Date: 7/7/09 Recent Posts
Hello, Beth.

I agree that having different agendas may just invalidate the comparison of the different methods we use to get where we're going. Yet my experience is that a practitioner can integrate different methods pretty successfully. While doing vipassana, investigating everything, I had a number of insights. That's the point of it. But in all my investigating there was no room for just letting go. It turns out there's great value in just letting go. Very simple, very clean, liberating. I still do vipassana but I also take time to "just let go." Both have value. There's no conflict between them in my practice - I think they're quite complimentary.

By the way, my realization of the real value of just letting go came not long after listening to a Christopher Titmuss podcast in which he extolls the virtue of "holding the world loosely" while doing choiceless awareness meditation (his terms, not mine), and that in doing that we can uncover truth.
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 5:23 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 5:23 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 443 Join Date: 5/6/09 Recent Posts
Hi Chris,

I've been finding Christopher Titmuss' teachings very accessible as well, in regards to realizing non-dual awareness. My favorite talk of his is called 'The Light That Reveals'. Here's the link to the MP3 download (from DharmaSeed.org)...

http://bit.ly/VBkLZ

I think it's great to hear an insight/vipassana teacher speak of realization in this way.

~Jackson
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Chris Marti, modified 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 5:26 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 5:26 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 379 Join Date: 7/7/09 Recent Posts
Thanks, Jackson. I'll download that one.

- Chris
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Kenneth Folk, modified 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 9:27 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 9:27 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/30/09 Recent Posts
Hi Tarin,

I've copied your post to a Word document, along with Chris's reply and I'll email it to you as an attachment so that you can re-post it in the Discussion Forum. I took the rather extreme step of deleting the posts in an effort to preserve the integrity of the Direct Path Venue. As it says on the Direct Path Venue into page,

"As is the case in all of the 'venues,' the moderation here will be slightly stricter than on the DhO in general, in order to maintain the focus on direct path teachings. Unrelated posts will be moved to the Discussion Forum. This forum isn't a place for academic discussion or to debate which approach is better. Rather, it's a place to jump in and engage in this direct exploration, which mainly involves pointing to and surrendering to what is always already the case."

While the discussion you have begun is a legitimate one, the idea of the venues is to stay focused on sharing the teachings themselves, rather than meta-discussions about the merits of various teachings.

Metta,

Kenneth
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tarin greco, modified 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 9:45 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 9:45 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
kenneth,

i disagree and say that my proposal fits into the thread, being that it is inherently a non-dual inquiry itself, and would not have fleshed it out as such to include comparisons if beth had not 1- confused it with what was proposed in daniel's post and 2- only superficially understood my question regarding agenda (and the agency that accomplishes it). however, i understand that the idea of what 'staying focused' is is one that is subject to a wide range of interpretations, and since this venue is an area you created (and will probably be keeping an eye on more than myself), i do not want to contest yours. once i receive the attachment i will start a new thread.

tarin

edit: oh oops, i see it now
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 11:18 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 11:18 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: garyrh

Hi Beth,
I have talk a about the method I use to remember my true nature and unless I apply this I "forget". How does this differ from the method(s) you use and is not forgetting a matter of sustained attention?
Thanks
Gary

I could (should) have started another thread, maybe your reply could be in another thread.
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 4:38 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan

"I have talk a about the method I use to remember my true nature and unless I apply this I "forget". How does this differ from the method(s) you use and is not forgetting a matter of sustained attention?" -Gary

Hi Gary,

I'm very glad to be talking about this with you about this and I feel like the conversation belongs very much in this thread.

For me, being undivided is not a matter of sustained attention. I have tried that in the past, but it too easily became a project that I needed to keep up and to do well. Plus, when I'm deliberately placing my attention on anything, even if that thing is awareness itself, I don’t feel undivided, not all the way.

Now, I just let things happen as they do. I (small self) do nothing. A fearful thought will arise like, "Wait! I forgot what I'm supposed to be doing. What should I do?" (This is the experience of forgetting what is the case.)

I have two phrases that I have been using to meet this forgetting experience:
"Do anything" and “There’s nothing I can do to mess this up.” Both phrases point to the same insight—that there is nothing that this body-mind could do that could change or jeopardize what is already the case. The body-mind can think, it can plan, it can be tired, it can write on the computer, if can be afraid, confused, it can feel loving and happy, it feel deep peace, it can feel cranky, it can experience some strange sensation in the body and consider seeing the doctor, it can wonder whether it will have time to keep writing on the DhO when school starts, etc.

Both of these phrases seem to unlock my conditioned tendency to clamp down on my experience out of fear that it is not the right experience to be having (particularly in regard to spirituality). I know that each experience is equally IT. THIS is always IT. Whatever this looks like, it’s IT, just as it is.
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 4:40 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan

Also, I’m not viewing being undivided as something that I have to build up or work towards. It’s already here. When I have the experience of forgetting this, I can see through that experience and stop pretending to divide. I’m seeing through the idea that the experience of forgetting is a problem. This seems to help me to relax and be with whatever is arising just as it is.

Gary, will you say more about how this is going for you lately. I’d like to hear more about that.

Warm regards,
Beth
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 7:30 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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Author: garyrh

Outside of meditation I was hit from no where ( I do not know the causes or conditions ) with an indescribable insight for say 5 minutes that faded over about an hour. The fading was in reflection of the experience. Everything was coming and going that's all, nothing added. At the time when I was recollecting I said to myself "I can not believe I've missed this simplicity", but I miss it now. Now I have a sense of when I move towards this simplicity. The overall experience caused a permanent shift that I would summarise by saying, knowing is not of the mind. Now I think I am looking at how to integrate this.

Hope this helps.
[edit] I realise the word integrate is not clear. I mean, how to move forward in the best way, because it appears a little off the maps. Also in the experience, the transcience of everything was predominant.
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triple think, modified 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 11:47 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 11:47 PM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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Oh, oh, oh, oh, hey! I found it, that old thread, it was a pretty cool chat.

Small Boat, Great Mountain ~ Amaro Bhikkhu, Theravada and Dzogchen
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=34089&st=140
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/18/09 5:47 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/18/09 5:47 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan

Dear Gary,

You wrote, "Everything was coming and going that's all, nothing added. At the time when I was recollecting I said to myself 'I can not believe I've missed this simplicity', but I miss it now."

I know that your experience now does not seem like the indescribable experience you had a few weeks ago. But are you sure that everything isn't just coming and going right now? Whatever it seem like is being added to what is coming and going, isn't that too just coming and going? Can you find anything that isn't coming and going?

Looking forward to hearing back from you,

Warmly,
Beth
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/18/09 7:33 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: garyrh

Thanks Beth

"Whatever it seem like is being added to what is coming and going, isn't that too just coming and going?"
Yes, everything is coming and going (although I am not experiencing this as before ) including what's being added and I see what has happening when answering the question. The simplicity comes into focus. Thanks for this!

"Can you find anything that isn't coming and going?"
To use my own words, existence or the knowing moment to moment does not come and go.

Regards
Gary
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/18/09 2:00 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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Author: ThePoorMan

" What I'm trying to do is to find the "right" direction then delve deeper into it. Please let me know if you think this is not a helpful approach to start with."-Amr

Hi Amr,

I don’t believe that there is one “right track,” but the one that you are on is very good!

When you look for your self, you see only awareness staring at itself. That’s the only “I” you can find.

You wrote, “I can't say that I identify with that blankness. It's as if my mind freezes and goes blank. All your questions become irrelevant, there is no thinking. I don't think it's very different from the space that exists between thoughts or sensations.”

So awareness can turn itself around and look at itself, even become absorbed into itself. The mind stops, and the experience is restful. What you describe here (as you probably already know) is what Kenneth calls “absorbing into the witness” and what Ramana Maharshi called “abiding as the ‘I am.’” Kenneth told me that you are drawn to continuing to look at/absorb into the witness as a practice. This sounds great to me. Although there is a realization more fundamental than absorbing into the witness, what you describe here is a very deep and powerful practice and can eventually give way to the most fundamental thing. You don’t have to do any other practice.

The sense of self to whom everything seems to be happening IS the witness. Through all of the experiences of your life—when you were small, when you were sick, when you were healthy, when you played outside with your friends, when you had your first crush, when you graduated from high school, when you’ve felt heartache, when you’ve felt joy, when you learned about enlightenment, now, as you read this message—the only constant has been the sense that experience is happening to me. That me is the witness.There is no other me to be found.

Warm regards,
Beth
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/19/09 8:28 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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Author: ThePoorMan

Hi everyone

A few of you have asked me about Daniel's original post that I was responding to on page 2 of this thread.

Daniel decided to take down his posts on this thread because he questioned whether they were in the spirit of the thread and of the direct path venue. He also questioned whether it was useful for both of us to converse using what seems like two different languages.

He's given me permission to do what I like with his posts, and since at least a few of you are interested in looking at them, I'm reposting them. The first one is Daniel writing to me. The second one is Daniel replying to Gary.

Beth
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/19/09 8:30 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan

Welcome, Beth, at long last.

If a vipassinist came to you and said, "I am not sure what the difference is here. The insight teachers tell me to notice all sensations as they are, explain that no-self and True Self are just concepts that really don't describe the truth of things, that the truth of things is always present in all sensations and always has been, that I am to see sensations as they are in a way that includes the experience of concepts rather than being filtered through the content of concepts, and what when doing insight practice one is not trying to change anything (as that would be training in morality) except the inability to be clear about the way experience actually is, and so one is investigating and relaxing into reality, balancing wisdom and faith, balancing energy and concentration, in a way that sounds like what you are talking about. They tell me to investigate and accept all sensations that seem to make up both what appears to be me and what appears to be not me, what appears to be the 'I' as well as everything else, as well as all thoughts and emotions, body and mind. What at the level of actually practicing is the difference, and how do you know that way is better?"

Or, if an arahat came to you and said, "When I got arahatship, which occurred by investigating and accepting reality, that was what I was looking for all along. Now the best of all the paths looks the same to me, and my baseline is like the best of what the non-dual traditions describe. How are you so sure you shouldn't just get arahatship? Reality is simply with itself, naturally, effortlessly, obviously, perfectly, truly and completely, in a way that is the perfect resolution of all the perceptual conflicts that seemingly existed as compelling illusions before this non-dual and timeless understanding of how it all always was. Where can be found a fault with this? I find none," how would you reply?

Daniel
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/19/09 8:36 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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Author: ThePoorMan

(Daniel replying to Gary)

Alright, tell me about that knowing, and why you use the word "dissecting" and also what the difference between that knowing and "dissecting" is, and if you see a problem with there being a difference, as a difference would appear to be something other than non-dual and direct, no? If the direct path is based on what is, how can there be a conflict? If "dissecting" arises, that is perfectly what it is, and if "knowing" arises, that is what is also, so help me out here. Is the direct path too direct to encompass some things?
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/19/09 8:45 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/19/09 8:45 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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Author: ThePoorMan

Hi Everyone,

This is Beth posting as Beth again. I just wanted to let everyone know that I'm going to be on retreat for the next 2 weeks. I've enjoyed my first week on the DhO very much and I look forward to continuing to explore the dharma together after my retreat.

Warm regards,
Beth
Amr El-Nowehy, modified 14 Years ago at 7/20/09 10:42 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/20/09 10:42 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 25 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
My vipassana practice was confined to body sensations. However, the description I found in Mindfulness in Plain English by Bhante Gunaratana is pretty much what you describe. Here are some extracts followed by a link:

"...mindfulness has no fixed object of focus. It observes change. Thus it has an unlimited number of objects of attention. It just looks at whatever is passing through the mind and it does not categorize..."

"...In a state of pure mindfulness your attention just flows along with whatever changes are taking place in the mind. 'Shift, shift, shift. Now this, now this, and now this...'"

"...Mindfulness cannot be cultivated by struggle. It grows by realizing, by letting go, by just settling down in the moment and letting yourself get comfortable with whatever you are experiencing..."

"...Mindfulness is inclusive. It stands back from the focus of attention and watches with a broad focus, quick to notice any change that occurs..."

"...This does not mean that mindfulness happens all by itself. Far from it. Energy is required. Effort is required. But this effort is different from force. Mindfulness is cultivated by a gentle effort, by effortless effort..."

http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/mindfulness_in_plain_english_16.php

...continue
Amr El-Nowehy, modified 14 Years ago at 7/20/09 10:43 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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And I'm not sure even if the result/fruits are different:

"... under the penetrating gaze of mindfulness, the feeling of self, an 'I' or 'being' anything, loses its solidity and dissolves. There comes a point in insight meditation where the three characteristics of existence - impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and selflessness - come rushing home with concept-searing force. You vividly experience the impermanence of life, the suffering nature of human existence, and the truth of no self. You experience these things so graphically that you suddenly awake to the utter futility of craving, grasping and resistance. In the clarity and purity of this profound moment, our consciousness is transformed. The entity of self evaporates..."

http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/mindfulness_in_plain_english_18.php

But I guess that I have to wait until I get a taste of both enlightments then I'll verify myself.


Amr
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/20/09 3:22 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: garyrh

Hi Amr,

Thanks for the links.
I particulary like this "You experience these things so graphically that you suddenly awake to the utter futility of craving, grasping and resistance." this describes the optimum relaxed state I was referring to.
By the descriptions in the links you have provided I agree it seems mindfulness is the how to get relax into this.

When in this place, shift the attention or bring to the foreground that which is constant. This is what I understood when Beth asked me "Can you find anything that isn't coming and going?" in a previous post.
It seems there are other ways about this; as Beth has addressed in a post to you above, but at the moment I find it most natural launching from "mindfulness" described in the links.

You said - "But I guess that I have to wait until I get a taste of both enlightments then I'll verify myself." If we listen to many, it seems they are not different, but like you I do not know the teritory well enough to judge myself.

Gary
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 8/11/09 4:50 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 8/11/09 4:50 AM

RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: ThePoorMan

Hi Friends,

I'm back from retreat, but only until Sunday. Then, Kenneth and I begin a 14-day retreat until 8/31. I'm feeling kind of quiet right now and also busy getting my life in order so that I can go away again! A few people have asked about my recent experience, so I thought I'd post this:

This past period of time spent in silence was simple, sweet, and rich. The intention that kept arising was to simply be with experience, just as it is--not to favor a quiet mind over a busy mind, not to favor peace over agitation, not even to expansiveness over fear. I'm seeing and growing to love more and more the peace that comes with just being natural, not dividing from experience. I'm becoming more hip to the stories/sensation that my mind/body generates to convince me that there is a problem I must fix. I getting more and more convinced that what the heart wants is only found through resting in what's already here.

Wishing you all peace,
Beth
Amr El-Nowehy, modified 14 Years ago at 8/11/09 9:54 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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HI Beth,

Welcome back. You mentioned in your email to me that you listened to some tapes while in the retreat. Is listening to such talks is part of the direct path meditation? Do you listen to them between sessions or during sessions?

Amr
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 8/11/09 11:47 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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Author: ThePoorMan

Hi Amr,

Thanks for the welcome back. Yes, I listened to Adyashanti tapes on my retreat. The tapes were recordings of satsangs (truth meetings) from earlier Adyashanti retreats. On his retreats there is usually a satsang in the morning and one in the evening. I think that they last for about 2 hours each. Usually he alternates between beginning with a dharma talk and beginning with inviting people to talk with him about what is happening for them (in front of the whole group). There are also meditation periods and "break" period throughout the day. I would say that satsangs (live or on tape) would be categorized as enquiry rather than as meditation.

Here is a link to Adyashanti's meditation instruction.
http://www.adyashanti.org/index.php?file=writings_inner&writingid=12

On my retreat, I mostly practiced on my own. I would sit until I felt like getting up, walk until I felt like sitting or lying down, etc. . . Some days I would listen to an hour of recorded material, some days none. I'm interested in going with the natural flow of things, so that's what I do on retreat lately.

Metta,
Beth
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 8/12/09 7:16 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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Author: Ryguy913

Hi, Everyone

As I read this thread, in particular, I was motivated to share the visual objects I've sometimes used in my practice. Though it may not be for everyone, I love Kandinsky and I also love to pair busy with quiet and see what how 'stories/sensations' shift with each representation.

http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/courses/gc/kandinsky.comp-7.jpg

http://tea.armadaproject.org/Images/amati/amati_WHiteout_at_survival_school.JPG.jpg

I find this practice particularly useful as a way to begin working with emotions, becoming familiar with destructive emotions in a friendly setting, and learning not only to sit with them but also to see them in their relation to constructive emotions. Maybe this wouldn't work for someone who is not as interested in art as I am, but maybe that doesn't matter so much. I'd be interested to hear some feedback on that (and in general).

In particular, I find that after looking at the busy image, I search for busyness in the quiet image; and after getting over the 'problem' of there being nothing to prolong this busy search, I find myself settling into a relaxation with the quiet, at which point busyness emerges, and the process cycles. Also, after settling into relaxation with the quiet image, I can similarly settle into relaxation with the quiet previously hidden in the busy image.

In particular, this involves awareness of bodily sensations, thoughts, awareness of shifts in breath between the two images, and how breath, body and thought interact together and with these images.

cont.
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 8/12/09 7:17 PM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

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Author: Ryguy913


I'd be happy hear of other practices anyone has found involving images, or any comments on this practice (possible openings, pitfalls, angles, confusion, etc.).

Also, I'm not very familiar with the direct path on the path (which for me has involved mostly Theravada samatha/vipassana meditation), but very familiar with it without knowing, if that makes sense. In that light, if this post is better situated elsewhere, someone please let me know.

Thanks!

Ryan

p.s. Thanks, Beth, for starting this thread!
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Klaus Lundahl Engelholt, modified 14 Years ago at 9/12/09 3:28 AM
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RE: A Non-Dual Safe-Space

Post: 1 Join Date: 8/11/09 Recent Posts
Amr El-Nowehy:
Now, the struggle is: how we can identity with that True Self/Nothingness experientially.


For me, Douglas Harding's “headless experiments” (use the not-so-intuitive menu at the right hand side) have been an absolute eye-opener in that it has shown me (1) that contrary to my belief my real Self pure emptiness, (2) that it has always been that way, and (3) that I have experiential access to this knowledge wherever I am and whatever I do (well, to be honest, I haven't been able to access it during formal meditation or in my sleep).

However simple and childish these experiments may seem, they are certainly very efficient. To realize who you really are is a matter of seconds or minutes, not hours, days or weeks — let alone years.

Now that I can always find myself (not that i always do, mind you!), I am also painfully aware that I have known this all the time, that there is nothing new to discover.

For many years … at least 20 (since my first A&P, I guess) … I have become more and more of a loner, I have shied away from people. This is because whenever I looked inside I found nothing but The Black Hole, The Abyss, I was nowhere to be found. And I found it so exceedingly painful that seemingly everyone except me was something and I was nothing, so I used to stay away from other people until I had a someone to show them, and in the latter years it has taken an increasing amount of energy to produce this someone. This is past now. Less than a couple of weeks ago the headless experiments showed me that, yes, I am nothing, a black hole, a bottomless pit, and endless void. But because of this I am also boundless capacity for the whole world. And what I'm doing now is to accept the Void rather than projecting a false somebody, it is making it so much easier for me to accept the company of other people (now, if I only had some headless friends…), although I still feel a bit like the mother in Pleasantville when she had gone technicolor and told her still balck and white son (freely paraphrased): »How can I go out now? What will other people say?« emoticon

'Nuff said. If you wish to see yourself as you are, if you wish to experience — first hand, in real time — that you are nothing, and if you wish to be able to see this at any time, well, then I can highly recommend doing some of the headless experiments over at Richard Lang's site. Have fun, and don't let the utter simplicity put you off.

Cheers,
Klaus