Forum: The Drama Overground

VInce (vjhorn) is no longer listed as a moderator and his account has been cancelled on July 29th. Where did he go? I think he added quite a bit to the discussion.

Author: bboyYen

I think Hokai went too.

Wow... I just noticed. What's up?

Author: bboyYen

Not really sure why he went.

i think daniel ingram went too

Daniel is still here. One... he posted just a few days ago. Two... he is still a member/moderator. Three... he is the founder. This is his site. It wouldn't make much sense for him to bail without giving everyone a heads up and announcing a new 'head'. He just doesn't seem to be that type.

And before anyone else says it... Kenneth is still listed as a member/moderator as well, though he has his own Wet Paint site.

Hi Everyone,

Daniel is still here. I talked with him on the phone on Thursday and he said he'd been very busy with work and with the building projects at his house.

It's true that Vince hasn't been around. I know he is also busy working on various projects. And I believe Hokai officially terminated his membership.

I was in Boston for the weekend and I got behind on all my correspondence, but I hope to begin catching up tonight or tomorrow. There are a couple of threads that I am particularly eager to respond to.

All the best,

Kenneth

I can't speak for Vince of Hokai, but I know a few things. Vince got frustrated with some issues of management, me, and the transition to something larger, as well has having many other commitments.

Hokai I believe was very frustrated by the lack of rigor, respect, formality and order of presentation of material, was somewhat uncomfortable with aspects of claims to attainments, and a wide range of other concerns, and, while he does still seem to post on occasion, seems to have largely moved on to other things. Kenneth is doing his non-dual immediate thing at his site but still here, but there are plenty of other good people around who have good knowledge and attitudes so hopefully, while much has been lost, other things have been gained, and perhaps this place will try to grow in ways that get it back on track somewhat.

I basically got sick of the perseveration about the DhO itself, the absurdity of much of what was happening here, the lack of pragmatism, the whining, and so largely retreated to a little corner of it, Daniel's practice hut, as most attempts at moderation lead to howls of protest despite my fervent pleas for something back to the original goals and vision of this place. I am considering strongly taking the advice of veteran website administrators and really stepping up the level at which I just stop the noise and make no apologies for it.

I have also been exceedingly busy working a more than full-time professional job, being architect/building manager/project coordinator on two house building projects here on my land, one of which is very non-traditional construction (straw bales, earthen floor, cedar round-pole, earth bags, etc.), and then trying to have things like a marriage, food, and sleep, but hopefully a little time is freeing up now: we'll see how long that lasts, as well as spending some time on DhO 2.0, which is proving more complex than originally anticipated. But yes, I am still here.

Such is life... Nothing lasts forever.

I'm sure you've been thinking a lot of things already, but what about jettising the project and migrating the articles to your personal website under guest writings?

Probably not what you envisioned, but if the current quality of people weren't what you were expecting, and without the time to properly advertise
the project, it may be time to call it good and retreat for a while.

The down-side to doing so for you personally is that you will lose this venue to get your book out there, but at the same time, if you are having to retreat on your own site, it doesn't help it. It may be time to retreat for a while and regroup later.

Best wishes with metta,

JG

This site, whatever its issues may be, remains a very viable and extremely valuable place. I personally think it's unfortunate that Vince and Hokai have moved on but things like that happen in all endeavors. And as I have said a few times before, this site is absolutely tame compared to many.

Daniel, I want you to know that your book was my practice bible for a long time. I'm saddened that you're disappointed in the Dharma Overground now because this site has helped me immeasurably. I have, on occasion, posted criticisms here in an effort to make the site better. I hope those suggestions were not taken as whining or unnecessary.

Ha! This made me smile. Yes, Daniel, you do indeed have a life beyond this cyber world... and this is another reason why I'm so grateful for what you have done here... you've taken the time from your busy schedule to be available here to answer peoples questions so that they can likewise make progress on their chosen path and/or practice meditation practice. It's not just you whom I'm grateful to, but also to all the wonderful people who have taken the time to be here and share their insights, experiences, and expertise. Some of these people have moved on, but this is simply change. Change is the normal flow of things... it's not necessarily good or bad. It just is.

Similar to what Chris (cmarti) said, I've found the contents (and interactions) on this site to be a wealth of information which has helped me to have better assessment and progress in my practice.

Well, no offense is intended by this but, honestly, I'm confused. How is it that an Arahat can perfectly understand the three conditions in relation to his own being but not in relation to everything else? That makes no sense whatsoever. The three characteristics, if anything, apply even more so than in the natural universe to the internet. If a person thinks they are going to somehow exert an unrealistic degree of control over a group process on the internet, then they are going to have one bad experience after another until they have the appropriate realizations, awaken to the truth of the thing and start to let go. Just fyi, all the best.

Lets face it, most ppl come here to see daniels response to questions. Maybe it would be better if he just wrote a blog that allowed for comments. and then also answered specific questions where he chose fit. It would be a whole lot better learning experience. sort of like an online satsung.
regards,

Macro and micro, two different things, really.

Regarding everyone else's appreciation, it is very much appreciated, and I will do my best to help keep this place useful, fun, and good, if I can.

Tomorrow Tarin and I discuss the DhO 2.0 transition, and hopefully it won't be that long. I think the wiki will add a whole new dimension.

Daniel

+1

Agreed. Too bad it's taking longer than expected, but I'm sure it will be a great improvement.

Triple if you dont mind me using some of your points to make a generic angle here .. nothing personal.

Actually the "nothing personal" bit is quite important. "Reasonable men can differ" over the definition of enlightenment, arahats etc. And indeed its a very legitmate topic of discussion [albeit ideally based huuuge personal practice/progress or on either research into source material (if speculation with "normal mind" "worked" well in this regard the Buddha wouldn't have had such a tough time getting to the truth...]. But even putting models to one side we do have the example of the Buddha - especially re the construction of the vinaya ... this evolved as an ongoing experiment ... started out with a few rules, something went one, the Buddha had to add another etc etc.

In non-Buddhist terms its an "open question" in post-postmodern if you like as to how progress in the personal, interpersonal and transpersonal domains inter-relates. And Daniel has made some very useful points in his book in this light and really helped open up the whole agenda.

However as Shylock said in the Merchant of Venice "prick me do i not bleed?". As I recall by tradition (can recall the suttas sadly) the Buddha would quite often go off for some solitude when the monks were just getting "too much". In modern times plenty of Abbots have spoken of the difficulties of managing a sangha (and that even when the sangha has signed up to the full vinaya).

A being may have complete realisation of annicca, dukkha and anatta but faced with cold hands wish rather to put them in gloves than a bees nest :-D

[cont'd]

So back to nothing personal ... it would seem to me that out of politeness to ones host folks ought to stop taking more-or-less disguised sniper shots at the chap who wrote the book, founded the forum, pays the bills, and shares out his hard-earned experience of the path for the benefit of any sentient being who wanders along.

At most I would think all such questions should be confined to one thread only (which Daniel then doesnt have to read). The *real* debate is around data of what folks go thru' and get to using the path, how to reconcile conflicting versions of enlightenment etc.

Daniel is leading from the front in terms of trying to break out of the taboos around discussing progress ... but have y'all thought of the fact that *the treatment of Daniel - and I mean respect or lack of* is going to be very important to other Arahats. If I were one (and I'm not - my day-to-day practice is ignorance ... practiced a lot, getting quite good at it :-D) then seeing how some folks behave from time to time I think I might resolve to "stay in the closet" (and I chose my metaphor deliberately ... is "high attaintment" some new sin that dare not speak its name without getting personal insluts in return).

I hope this thread and the scare folks have had - do you want this place to continue? so you think Daniel wants daily pot-shots at him? helps the debate about how best to take this forwards.

To me Daniels book and this forum is a highly important contribution to the evolution of western buddhism and I hope a way forwards can be found for this community to continue to contribute to that. I am sure we all know plenty of other fora which are far less amenable to our development.

may all beings be happy!

Mike

Seems useful to respond to a couple of points. First off, thinly veiled criticism. I'm not into it and typically come across as more of a blunt instrument. Secondly, I think the issue of possessiveness amongst the 'awake set' is a valid question in very general terms with very broad implications. The social bs that arises from it never seems to end. I don't see that it's justifiable in the context, in any case, from Buddha to Babaji. I don't find, anywhere, a micro/macro divide re: the three characteristics. It's all very obviously all the same to me, whether I've got the so called arahatship thing down or not.

I send Daniel personal messages if I feel it's a personal matter and I've never been shy about being either critical or complementary in those messages, isn't that so Daniel?

Anyways, a forum is a forum is a forum. It's not a podium, simple as that. Many of us here have found Daniels contribution groundbreaking on a number of fronts and many of us would like to continue on in similar veins. If there is a subset of people who would prefer a Daniel cult, maybe you folks could set up a space with a podium and a shrine to worship him.

I welcome criticism. Private or public, valid or not, there's no real difference to be concerned about. I've learned a lot more from that form of expression than most. Daniels book is fundamentally a criticism of some parts of the traditional take on the process of coming to full awareness of what one truly is. It has to start with that as the basis for taking another approach while at the same time ripping off the good stuff. I like the approach and the wholesale thievery and I agree with a lot of the critique, not all of it, but enough of it to be supportive. So I am. Most of the time.

Triplethink has a good point: I don't want any criticism free cult either, as I hope I have made clear. That's pretty much my idea of hell. Respect is due to everyone, attainment or otherwise, but respectful people can disagree, and that's healthy. So long as we can keep it practical, about actual practice, about actually how to do it, about what living people really have done and know is possible, and how this interfaces with our interpretations of the original ideals at utilitarian level, that's fine with me.

Triplethink has a very strong interest in the traditional interpretation of the models of awakening and how they relate to reality, my models, other developmental models, and what is possible in practice, and I think that's great. Realize that there are conflicts on this front, conflicts of ideals, practicality, and many other aspects, and that's probably going to continue, as this is one of the things I have run into again and again, not just with him, but with the wider community, and have since I started putting my stuff out there, and given the weight of tradition behind the original ideals and maps, and the seeming newness of my point of view (which isn't really that new, and I can find lots of examples of why this is the case, even in the original material, and more strongly in some of the attempts at reform in the Tibetan, Chinese and Japanese traditions), but regardless, I think that imagining we can easily dodge this one, issues of respect or treatment of those who claim whatever aside, is, for better or for worse, naive, and I think the debate should continue, as the relationship between understanding fundamental aspects of sensate reality and how they affect the psychological/emotional aspects of our being is really not so straightforward as basically anyone makes it out to be, and this is very interesting territory and worthy of careful exploration by a wide group of adventurers.

Sounds great and I agree with you both entirely ... just from a readers perspective I find it neater if there are threads for certain topics and the same theme doesnt keep cropping up and being addressed time and again in different places [a good example perhaps being the non-dual safe space ... its a real interesting question as how dual and non-dual traditions relate (or not?!) in Buddhism ... but one doesnt want that topic being cross-fired in every thread about no-dual]. So I'd personally vote for a specific thread on your claims and then the rest of the threads can avoid having crossfire/subtext about "has he or hasnt he (made it)" and more on the objective, de-personalised angles of research and investigation.

Actually Chris has a great point ... there aint much wrong really .. maybe a little tweak here and there ... only point being to avoid (rationally/irrationally/whatever) the sponsor of any forum getting cheesed off and leaving like some of the early members have. Then the gas bill stops getting paid the whole thing dissapears and becomes a good object lesson in emptiness :-D

may all beings be happy & and may DhO flourish!

Mike

i was astounished reading this thread-as usually i have little time and for me its or meditating or reading DhO.at work i do the last but at home i give the only hour i have free to practice and many times i read "old"threads and get a lot of usefull info according to my own development.i ll try to write Vince through his buddist geeks but if you Daniel have contact with him(and i believe you do)send him my best regards-he was the very first one to welcome me on this site and i got a lot of inspiration from his profile.actually it is sometimes difficult not to miss usefull info becouse of so many threads and contributions and some things roll again and again in different threads-seems that other people didnt read what already is wreaten or couldnt find it becouse of amounts...but actually to have this possibility to contact living Masters and even folks like me-everybody can be helpfull through their practical experience, is blessed oportunity.hope it doesnt vanish completely-through this site or through DhO2-just to have the access to help on the path-mind you-i also want to reach the final goal like many others did! hope i didnt offend anybody in my posts-i do respect everybody who reached more then i did by their own efforts and its somehow painfull to see that some people with very good intentions get frustrated and quit or think to quit. anyhow -i thank everybody who helped this site to start off-YOU ARE DEAR TO ME.this seems like one woman cry but still-i ll post it, it came from the heart.

Author: Ryguy913

Please read and reflect.

Ud 2.3 PTS: Ud 11
Danda Sutta: The Stick
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1994–2009

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time, a large number of boys on the road between Savatthi and Jeta's Grove were hitting a snake with a stick. Then early in the morning the Blessed One, having put on his robes and carrying his bowl and outer robe, went into Savatthi for alms. He saw the large number of boys on the road between Savatthi and Jeta's Grove hitting the snake with a stick.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:

Whoever takes a stick
to beings desiring ease,
when he himself is looking for ease,
will meet with no ease after death.

Whoever doesn't take a stick
to beings desiring ease,
when he himself is looking for ease,
will meet with ease after death.

Provenance: ©1994 Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Transcribed from a file provided by the translator. This Access to Insight edition is ©1994–2009 John T. Bullitt. Terms of use: You may copy, reformat, reprint, republish, and redistribute this work in any medium whatsoever, provided that: (1) you only make such copies, etc. available free of charge; (2) you clearly indicate that any derivatives of this work (including translations) are derived from this source document; and (3) you include the full text of this license in any copies or derivatives of this work. Otherwise, all rights reserved. For additional information about this license, see the FAQ. How to cite this document (one suggested style): "Danda Sutta: The Stick" (Ud 2.3), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, June 7, 2009, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.2.03.than.html.

Author: crkrishna77

Daniel, u have been a source of great inspiration to me, living here in South India.
This is the first time i'm posting a reply and i have no doubt there are many like me who read what is posted in D O but remain silent knowing fully well that their progress on the path has not yet reached a stage where they can make any useful contribution.
Regards.

Hi Daniel,

I'm always surprised by your disappointment in the DhO, the combination of your book and this site are tremendous. I've had very useful and insightful replies to all of my posts, and although there are some overly-philosophical threads and so on, there are also many, many excellent ones. Please don't give up on it.

Perhaps you had delusions of grandeur (your favourite) for this site, and you're disappointed that it's not reaching those heights ;)

- Martin

First post...

I've been around in the net since 1988 (the web was born years later). Internet discussion forums are rough places that, unless moderated, will deteriorate into a pile of rubbish. A moderator, or even an active participant, needs to be thick-skinned. If there is no moderation, the participants need to be a strongly selected group, preferably with some real-life social ties to keep them behaving. Moderating a discussion forum is dirty work with not much reward. I have not really been following DhO, but things could even be worse than average here, for dharma practice requires so much determination and a certain ability to be outside of mainstream. On the other hand, dharma people are supposedly introspective and come with some ethics.

My feeling of dharma is that it would be most useful for me and others if it were non-religous, modernized, open, non-authoritative, testable, developing, and if possible even integrated to western psychology and brain science. And all this is happening, although not in a one single place. Internet changes the scene in that there may now be many people practicing more or less without a teacher, relying on the net for guidance and support. And then people just want to chat, theoretize, etc. So DhO serves at least three purposes: (1) It advertises open dharma, (2) it is a support forum, (3) it's a pub. Could or should these functions be somehow separated? For example, many blogs generate a lively moderated discussion. http://www.realclimate.org/ is a good example.

DhO and Daniel's approach are also experiments. Although unlikely, it may still be that those who tie dharma into religion and hide attainments are right after all, for some odd reason not so easily understandable by young inexperienced western people. We'll see.

Dear Janne,

I am terrified that there may be some truth in what you say. By adding religion, authority, stability of dogma, beautiful ideals, respected and idealized hierarchy, discipline, and many obvious outward trappings that people who are more concrete can see and appreciate, many more people are drawn near all this and support all this and perhaps get out of it what people who like going to church services like, community, good moral lessons, inspiration to be good people, and the like.

The huge downside is that many of them get stuck there, such that talking to them is like talking to brainwashed cult people, and if you try to tell them that the experience they had actually was insight, and that by practicing they could attain or even surpass the people in the robes on the front cushion and understand what the persons represented by the gold statues hopefully understood, they look at you like you are heretic and talk about making merit and the like.

Still, I dream of a world where there is the support of people who appreciate these things and the things they feel they need for where they are, and the openness that empowers people to actually do it and feel they can do it, which they can, generally, and so finding that right balance between giving trappings to good and ernest spiritual children and supporting the development of spiritual adults is not easy, probably an ever moving target, probably involves bell curves and the like, and so we will see how this experiment shifts things in the direction that I know can happen is happening here and some other places.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Daniel