Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Samvega, modified 2 Years ago.

Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 2 Join Date: 8/10/17 Recent Posts
I wonder if there is any short cut to enlightenment, atleast the first stage of enlightenment (sotappana).
I went through this blog: www.en.openheart.fi
The author claims to have helped hundreds of yogis get awakened with a 98% success rate. That too in just a few days? Really? I mean, what the..!!
It looks so damn attractive for someone like me who's struggling in dark night for years.
Here I am, thinking of taking a sabbatical and go backpacking to Thailand or Burma in search of good practice and hopefully stream entry, even if it takes a year or so..
And here is this Author promising stream entry (aka 1st Bhumi opening) within days of practice!!
I couldn't push it aside either, as I didn't feel it was a complete scam.
I just started wondering if something like a short cut really do exist? I'm very scared to even start the practice, because the results look scarily quick! I'm just worried I shouldn't go crazy and unknowingly become part of a cult.
But I agree that I am quite attracted to try out the practice once, which he calls the two part formula aka open heart practice.
It looks like the Author (Kim) is quite a known face on this forum? But why don't I find many people talking about this technique here except for one person who's recommending it? Why haven't many tried it yet? Could you throw some light on this technique if you ever tried it once especially if you had an Insight meditation (Vipasana) history? Why did you feel the need to shift from Insight meditation and what did you gain through this practice?
I'm also wondering if these practitioners are confusing themselves the A&P phenomenon for actual awakening, considering how varied and vague the A&P can be.
This is definitely not put out in a bad intention, with all due respects to the Author. He looks like a good man to me. I'm just genuinely concerned and any help is appreciated. It's a desperate attempt of a dark night yogi to get done with this shit ASAP!

Thanks!
JP, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 175 Join Date: 3/31/17 Recent Posts
My general impression is that this is a situation where there's not much consensus on here about the accuracy of the attainment claims for Kim's students.   I think there are a few different reasons why this is the case, most of which generally apply to the question of how accurate it's possible to be with remote dharma diagnosis.

- Unless I'm missing something, there aren't any detailed practice logs being kept here by Open Heart practitioners other than Jehanne.  Diagnosing stream entry requires a fair amount of information about people's sits over the course of the weeks prior, in-depth discussion on the exact phenomenology of what happened when they think cessation occurred, and maybe even some information on how daily life and their regular perspective in the world changed between before and after.  Very few people, including me, post frequently enough to provide the necessary level of detail.

- It seems to take people several paths to have confidence in definitively saying that a certain event was fruition as opposed to a mimic for it.  So it's probably only DhO posters who're on at least third path who are going to be able to assess this.

- Kim's method of diagnosing path attainments based on assessing the energy body through pictures/videos of practitioners is non-standard, at least among the experienced pragmatic dharma practitioners here.  Maybe it works and maybe it doesn't -- this is probably something where we'd need him to teach Daniel Ingram or other experienced practitioners how he does it and have them tell us whether it lines up with their judgment.

- Most of us just have our own experience to go by, and are going to judge other tradition's maps and timetables accordingly.  So both "awakening is nearly impossible and takes your whole life" and "awakening is super-easy and you can do it in a weekend" don't line up with most of our experiences.

I haven't tried it, but the technique itself seems like it could be a useful technique, especially as a corrective to over-efforting in the dark night.  

I also think that this is a question that's going to continue until there's a large group of Open Heart practitioners who are also familiar with MTCB and The Mind Illuminated, who start regularly posting detailed phenomenomological practice logs, and who are very open to their Open Heart attainments being questioned or mapped differently.  

I'd encourage you to think seriously about how you feel about the technique and whether you'd want to be involved in Open Heart as an organization, rather than just about whether it can "get" you an attainment.  I personally really like the analytic framework by David Chapman in Approaching Aro as a guide to how to consider different spiritual traditions.  It's also a great example of how a non-traditional Tibetan Buddhist lineage can address outside concerns respectfully, and I'd love to see a similar effort by Open Heart.
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Ward Law, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 123 Join Date: 9/7/15 Recent Posts
Kim's method of diagnosing path attainments based on assessing the energy body through pictures/videos of practitioners is non-standard, at least among the experienced pragmatic dharma practitioners here.  Maybe it works and maybe it doesn't -- this is probably something where we'd need him to teach Daniel Ingram or other experienced practitioners how he does it and have them tell us whether it lines up with their judgment.
This claim has been a point of contention here, and it probably hasn't helped the credibility of the 2-part formula. As an aside from the main thread, I'd like to suggest that this argument has been focused on the wrong question: whether Kim or anyone else can read someone's attainments from a photograph. I can reasonably deny that a photograph contains any reliable information about the subject's inner state, with the exception of obvious transitory states such as anger or shock. I propose that what the photo actually does -- if one grants the premise that ESP is real -- is merely to provide a unique personal identity that the practitioner can focus on extrasensorily. This is similar to how a legitimate psychic picks up an identity from a physical object, such as a piece of jewelry. Of course, if one refutes the possibility of ESP, then one can continue to dismiss the photo claim as delusion.
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 3864 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I'm wondering why a new member shows up about once a week here on DhO whose very first post is about Open Heart practice. Hmmm...
Tashi Tharpa, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 244 Join Date: 4/4/18 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
I'm wondering why a new member shows up about once a week here on DhO whose very first post is about Open Heart practice. Hmmm...
Hahaha! Karmic connection... 
Karl Henrik Warloe Eikrem, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 10 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Ward Law:
Kim's method of diagnosing path attainments based on assessing the energy body through pictures/videos of practitioners is non-standard, at least among the experienced pragmatic dharma practitioners here.  Maybe it works and maybe it doesn't -- this is probably something where we'd need him to teach Daniel Ingram or other experienced practitioners how he does it and have them tell us whether it lines up with their judgment.
This claim has been a point of contention here, and it probably hasn't helped the credibility of the 2-part formula. As an aside from the main thread, I'd like to suggest that this argument has been focused on the wrong question: whether Kim or anyone else can read someone's attainments from a photograph. I can reasonably deny that a photograph contains any reliable information about the subject's inner state, with the exception of obvious transitory states such as anger or shock. I propose that what the photo actually does -- if one grants the premise that ESP is real -- is merely to provide a unique personal identity that the practitioner can focus on extrasensorily. This is similar to how a legitimate psychic picks up an identity from a physical object, such as a piece of jewelry. Of course, if one refutes the possibility of ESP, then one can continue to dismiss the photo claim as delusion.

You can reasonably deny it? How can you do that without making a huge leap from "I can't see anything" to "there is nothing to see". Sounds unreasonable to me. After having practiced the attainment-reading for a while in relation to guiding people to awakening, it is pretty obvious to me that there is a tension, a locking of awareness to the level of the eyes before awakening, that is no longer there after the "I" has been seen as illusory. And it doesn't seem to matter whether the awakening took place using the 2pf, or by some other method. Even Shinzen Young has mention this, so it is not something that Kim has made up:

I was at a student's house and I see this book. Its one of these photo books that people would put on coffee tables. What's interesting is that there's nothing by the photographer, the author of the book, but there is an intro, a preamble by Tony Morrison who is a fairly important person in the world of art and literature. This tells you that this is a significant book but there is nothing by the person who actually took the photos, in other words the photos have to speak for themselves. Its this huge book of photographs and I start to look through these photographs. These are all portraits and I'm like freaking out because its very evident to me what this book is about and I had never seen a book like this, ever. I go to my friend and say, ”This book is amazing!” and she says, ”The photographer, is a distant relative of mine”. ”Well, can you get his telephone number?”, I asked. We called him up and he was there. I told him what I thought his book was about and he freaked out. He said that I was the only person who ever understood what the book was about, of all the people that had seen it at exhibitions or whatever. The name of the book is A Kind of Rapture by Robert Bergman. He went through the rust belt of United States, the old decaying cities, photographing street people, who for whatever reason, usually a combination of hard life and physical, and mental illness, had been thrust into a no-self state, in other words, people for whom the blows of life had driven them to a rapturous no-self experience. He went around the country looking for those kind of people, catching them at the moment when they manifested the non-ego, that their hard life had taken them to. You know, if you see one or two pictures like that it doesn't have an impact like that but if you see 50 pictures like that, picture after picture after picture, then it hits you, what the whole thing is about. The reason why I thought they were so extraordinary is that althought there is a lot of books about enlightenment or no-self coming about through practice, and there are number of books written by people who have had spontaneous enlightenment experiences, what no one has looked at is this whole thing, this whole other aspect. In terms of a subject matter it is very unsual and the message is very unsual, and the medium is very unsual, instead of writing a book, talking about this phenomena, he shows it to you and you either get it or you don't. 

The quote is from this video (around 25 minues in): https://youtu.be/HGmU1oVroLM?t=1499&fbclid=IwAR2MuztNlOPwiYawTJeUhx0y01MnJ9WpRDjryNIb27EHKDK-QKi2U3MMfhU

As for Samvega's question of it being a shortcut, I don't think that word has ever been used by Kim himself. What the 2pf is a highly effective method, but the work still has to be done. The reason why it is so effective as to allow awakening to take place within a few days or weeks, is that the two steps of 2pf hits the nail on the head with regards to the mechanics of awakening.

Awakening, regardless of method, seem to take place when the artificial nature of "I" is seen clearly in contrast to natural open, selfless awareness. This is exactly what the two steps of the formula aim at from the start of the practice. Bring that together with guidance from a skilfull guide who has already awakened and you have a pretty solid base for reaching the insight fast. Common sense, really. 
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Ward Law, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 123 Join Date: 9/7/15 Recent Posts
I should say, rather, that I am skeptical that a photograph, by itself, contains sufficient data on which to base an evaluation. 
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Kim Katami, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
JP:
My general impression is that this is a situation where there's not much consensus on here about the accuracy of the attainment claims for Kim's students. I think there are a few different reasons why this is the case, most of which generally apply to the question of how accurate it's possible to be with remote dharma diagnosis.

- Unless I'm missing something, there aren't any detailed practice logs being kept here by Open Heart practitioners other than Jehanne.  Diagnosing stream entry requires a fair amount of information about people's sits over the course of the weeks prior, in-depth discussion on the exact phenomenology of what happened when they think cessation occurred, and maybe even some information on how daily life and their regular perspective in the world changed between before and after.  Very few people, including me, post frequently enough to provide the necessary level of detail.

- It seems to take people several paths to have confidence in definitively saying that a certain event was fruition as opposed to a mimic for it.  So it's probably only DhO posters who're on at least third path who are going to be able to assess this.

- Kim's method of diagnosing path attainments based on assessing the energy body through pictures/videos of practitioners is non-standard, at least among the experienced pragmatic dharma practitioners here.  Maybe it works and maybe it doesn't -- this is probably something where we'd need him to teach Daniel Ingram or other experienced practitioners how he does it and have them tell us whether it lines up with their judgment.

- Most of us just have our own experience to go by, and are going to judge other tradition's maps and timetables accordingly.  So both "awakening is nearly impossible and takes your whole life" and "awakening is super-easy and you can do it in a weekend" don't line up with most of our experiences.

I haven't tried it, but the technique itself seems like it could be a useful technique, especially as a corrective to over-efforting in the dark night.  

I also think that this is a question that's going to continue until there's a large group of Open Heart practitioners who are also familiar with MTCB and The Mind Illuminated, who start regularly posting detailed phenomenomological practice logs, and who are very open to their Open Heart attainments being questioned or mapped differently.  

I'd encourage you to think seriously about how you feel about the technique and whether you'd want to be involved in Open Heart as an organization, rather than just about whether it can "get" you an attainment.  I personally really like the analytic framework by David Chapman in Approaching Aro as a guide to how to consider different spiritual traditions.  It's also a great example of how a non-traditional Tibetan Buddhist lineage can address outside concerns respectfully, and I'd love to see a similar effort by Open Heart.

Hi JP and thanks for a well composed post.

Before matters presented in the above post, I'd like to say that as there is much more to buddhism than the first shift/awakening/kensho, there is also more to Open Heart as a method. It's a small piece in a big puzzle. Just a reminder.

I've presented a lot of material reg. 2PF and awakening it generates. You can find them, for free, for example from Awake-ebook. Dialogues and photos in the book, gives the reader some sense what happens to these people.

In OH, we mainly use our own terminology, instead of theravadan or other, that has developed over the years. It's still based on common buddhist theory and meditative experiences but also has distinct features because we do some things differently. I am confident that this is one of the reasons why there seems to be a wall of sorts between traditional buddhists, as here, and those who in OH have had the experiences and know first hand what the terms point to.

I guess a lot theravadans consider cessation, if not the most important, then at least very important indicator of stream-entry, and the way how the analysis proceeds is to consider the specifics of the event. Because of the difference in the way we look whether or not the shift has occurred, I have never really looked it that way, although I know well what cessation is. I just don't look at it that way. My way of looking at it, is closer to rinzai zen-style, where the teacher asks the student questions and meters his or hers energetic feel, and a possible change in it. This is typical in rinzai zen. I guess all teachers use this to some degree, knowingly or unknowingly. The point is that there is not only one way to measure shifts that deal with lessening of self-based suffering.

The only reference I have seen about seeing attainments from photos, is from Shinzen Young. Here:

I was at a student's house and I saw this book. Its one of these photo books that people would put on coffee tables. What's interesting is that there's nothing by the photographer, the author of the book, but there is an intro, a preamble by Tony Morrison who is a fairly important person in the world of art and literature. This tells you that this is a significant book but there is nothing by the person who actually took the photos, in other words the photos have to speak for themselves. Its this huge book of photographs (indicates a large size) and I start to look through these photographs. These are allportraits and I'm freaking out because its very evident to me what this book is about and I had never seen a book like this, ever.

I go to my friend and say, ”This book is amazing!” and she says, ”The photographer, is a distant relative of mine”. ”Well, can you get his telephone number?”, I asked. We called him up and he was there. I told him what I thought his book was about and he freaked out. He said that I was the only person who ever understood what the book was about, of all the people that had seen it at exhibitions or whatever.

The name of the book is A Kind of Rapture by Robert Bergman. He went through the rust belt of United States, the old decaying cities, photographing street people, who for whatever reason, usually a combination of hard life and physical, and mental illness, had been thrust into a no-self state, in other words, people for whom the blows of life had driven them to a rapturous no-self experience. He went around the country looking for those kind of people, catching them at the moment when they manifested non-ego, that their hard life had taken them to. You know, if you see one or two pictures like that it doesn't have an impact like that but if you see 50 pictures like that, picture after picture after picture, then it hits you, what the whole thing is about. The reason why I thought they were so extraordinary is that although there is a lot of books about enlightenment or no-self coming about through practice, and there are number of books written by people who have had spontaneous enlightenment experiences, what no one has looked at is this whole thing, this whole other aspect. In terms of a subject matter it is very unsual and the message and the medium is very unsual. Instead of writing a book, talking about this phenomena, he shows it to you and you either get it or you don't.”


-Shinzen Young in Shaktipat or Energy Transmission in Buddhism, 25:00 minutes: https://youtu.be/HGmU1oVroLM?t=1499

Curiously Shinzen Young has a history in rinzai zen. He says at the end of the quote (underlined) that it is extraordinary to display enlightenment from a photo and states that no one has looked into this way. I have emailed Shinzen's assistant about this but I don't know if he ever got or read my email. Daniel said he'd like to join one of our retreats next year, so maybe he has some interest towards bhumi analysis.

Years ago when it occurred to me that awakening and post-awakening stages should by reason be detactable from a good photo, I didn't know whether it was actually possible or not. After many hundreds of photos and thousand live analyses, and many mistakes, it turned out to be. Before this thought ever occurred to me, I had done many years of healing arts, like shiatsu and reiki, as well as zen calligraphy, which all have the common denominator of reading or sensing subtle energy. I can understand how to someone who doesn't have any such experience all this can be nonsense, just like it is to most OH-practitioners in the beginning. Well, that also is a learnable skill and while myself I don't have a theravada background and am not fluent in using that terminology, some in our sangha do, and are working on their own texts and materials. Why so few OH'ers are in DhO, I think there are few reasons to this, which I won't list here, but just wanted to mention that in our sangha we have people who have focused on theravada practice for up to two decades.

I recommend reading MCTB to my students, because of it's general education, but like I said we don't use that method, nor use the techniques that people here commonly do. So there is a communication gap there, even if some OH folks showed up and were ready for the scrutiny of people here. A similar gap exists between hard ass rinzai zen teachers who demand demonstrations of shifts in traditional zen poems and abstract language. A similar gap could be if I started to demand a description of kundalini shooting up above the head and descending down to the heart, which is something that both buddhists and hindus mention, but perhaps not all students can detect, despite of theoretically knowing about it. Maybe it has been unskillful of me to present non-theravada style expositions on mostly a theravada influenced forum. 

I like David Chapman's expositions but I doubt I can ever produce expositions like his simply because I am not an intellectual, nor a native English speaker. My teaching-style and expression is work in progress. I am also aware that despite of my efforts in trying to be as polite and politically correct as possible, I don't always succeed but nevertheless at the moment I am happy that at least some get what I'm trying to say.
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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 3170 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Hey, lots of points worth of comment in this discussion, but just to clarify one point, I hadn't intended to sit the retreat with Kim this summer, but was considering the possibility of meeting Kim in person this summer when I plan to be traveling around Europe for a while and Finland is much more of a treck than the UK, where I have other reasons to be this summer as well.

Just as he says he gets a lot out of photos, I get a lot out of meeting people in the flesh, and, as Kim has been a topic of discussion on this and other forums, wanted to know more for myself about him. Sorry for any confusion on that point.

More to post later, but holiday travels to see my family call, as it is Christmas Eve, and I have a Christian candle light service with my family to go to this evening, as is their tradition every year, and have about 4 hours of driving to do totday.

Joyous Saturnalia, everyone.
Chris In Dhamma, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 5 Join Date: 12/1/18 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:

Just as he says he gets a lot out of photos, I get a lot out of meeting people in the flesh, and, as Kim has been a topic of discussion on this and other forums, wanted to know more for myself about him. Sorry for any confusion on that point.

More to post later, but holiday travels to see my family call, as it is Christmas Eve, and I have a Christian candle light service with my family to go to this evening, as is their tradition every year, and have about 4 hours of driving to do totday.

Joyous Saturnalia, everyone.

Hi everyone

I guess I am like many other persons here on Dho practicing since a couple of years (Noting / Mahasi), with a serious daily practice and still not knowing where I am regarding SE... 

I keep reading various reports regarding attainments here on Dho but there are so many different opinions, or even contradictory points of view that it is very hard to understand who is right and to grasp when someone has reached SE or is on 2nd or 3rd path.... at least for me.

So first, I find it very helpful when Daniel steps in to bring some insight like here (thank you) and maybe would be able to tell how realiable a practice/other teacher/claim is (like for Open heart here or some other posts like that one: https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/7146949).

However, I was wondering if some even more organised system would be possible where an open organised guidance from serious practitionners could be provided to more junior members (and them avoiding getting lost with "fake" teachers/scamms/desilusioned claimants/self-proclaimed gurus) :

1. Daniel, having reached the 4th path should be able to tell who is 3rd or 2nd path among the many serious and experienced practitionners here on Dho
2. He could then maybe organise a group with these serious practitionners (2nd or 3rd path) then discuss&set some standards as to how recoginise someone having reached SE 
3. Then disclose openly these members willing to give guidance
4. These senior practitionners could then be safely approach to give guidance to more junior members striving for SE and give better answers for those before SE or on 1st path

This could be of benefit for everyone as Daniel will not be overwhelemd with queries, the senior practitionners could be helping others and the more junior would get proper advice as based on a trust system derived directly from the most senior member.

It is just an idea.... what do you think? Would such a system be possible?

Happy New Year to Everyone & Metta
 
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Andromeda, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 393 Join Date: 1/15/18 Recent Posts
Chris In Dhamma:
Daniel M. Ingram:

Just as he says he gets a lot out of photos, I get a lot out of meeting people in the flesh, and, as Kim has been a topic of discussion on this and other forums, wanted to know more for myself about him. Sorry for any confusion on that point.

More to post later, but holiday travels to see my family call, as it is Christmas Eve, and I have a Christian candle light service with my family to go to this evening, as is their tradition every year, and have about 4 hours of driving to do totday.

Joyous Saturnalia, everyone.

Hi everyone

I guess I am like many other persons here on Dho practicing since a couple of years (Noting / Mahasi), with a serious daily practice and still not knowing where I am regarding SE... 

I keep reading various reports regarding attainments here on Dho but there are so many different opinions, or even contradictory points of view that it is very hard to understand who is right and to grasp when someone has reached SE or is on 2nd or 3rd path.... at least for me.

So first, I find it very helpful when Daniel steps in to bring some insight like here (thank you) and maybe would be able to tell how realiable a practice/other teacher/claim is (like for Open heart here or some other posts like that one: https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/7146949).

However, I was wondering if some even more organised system would be possible where an open organised guidance from serious practitionners could be provided to more junior members (and them avoiding getting lost with "fake" teachers/scamms/desilusioned claimants/self-proclaimed gurus) :

1. Daniel, having reached the 4th path should be able to tell who is 3rd or 2nd path among the many serious and experienced practitionners here on Dho
2. He could then maybe organise a group with these serious practitionners (2nd or 3rd path) then discuss&set some standards as to how recoginise someone having reached SE 
3. Then disclose openly these members willing to give guidance
4. These senior practitionners could then be safely approach to give guidance to more junior members striving for SE and give better answers for those before SE or on 1st path

This could be of benefit for everyone as Daniel will not be overwhelemd with queries, the senior practitionners could be helping others and the more junior would get proper advice as based on a trust system derived directly from the most senior member.

It is just an idea.... what do you think? Would such a system be possible?

Happy New Year to Everyone & Metta
 

Hi Chris,

You might check out a really great essay that Daniel wrote a few months ago called Overcalling Attainments: A Shadow Side of Map-Based Dharma. In it he discusses some of the problems inherent in dharma diagnosis such as

Dharma diagnosis is easy to get wrong. Events must be taken in context. Criteria must be carefully applied, realizing that clear dharma diagnosis is challenging even for people with decades of experience in it who have helped thousands of people try to sort these things out. Models are imperfect, but that is no excuse for throwing them out, as they are based on millennia of expertise and experimentation.
Dharma misdiagnosis can have significant consequences for practice, fooling people into settling for events, occurrences, and attainments that are significantly below what they might have been capable of without falling into the traps of the maps.

The bold is mine, to highlight just two major obstacles to a system such as you propose. Dharma diagnosis is a complex thing!
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Jehanne S Peacock, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 167 Join Date: 2/14/14 Recent Posts
Hi Samvega!


Samvega:

It looks like the Author (Kim) is quite a known face on this forum? But why don't I find many people talking about this technique here except for one person who's recommending it? Why haven't many tried it yet? Could you throw some light on this technique if you ever tried it once especially if you had an Insight meditation (Vipasana) history? Why did you feel the need to shift from Insight meditation and what did you gain through this practice?

Why more people haven't tried, that's a good question that I don't know the answer to emoticon There are some 60-70 people in the OH community who have found the practises to be very beneficial, many of them have had long practise histories before. I've been doing OH practises for around two years now. I started with trying out the 2PF. I did it for a few times, but atleast for me the feelings I had when trying to affirm the "I"-feelings were pretty mild, since I had seen through the self already (I was unsure and decided to go with modesty, no awakening, ready to give the 2PF a try). It turned out that my awakening had happened before, infact now I consider that it happened over 10 years ago.So I am not a good example of applying the 2PF strictly speaking emoticon But I've seen it work on others. Infact you might want to check some video testimonials of OH practicioners if you haven't seen them already. 

I had previous history (6 months?)  with vajrayana based group, and a couple of years of pragmatic dharma (MCTB-style) before I found OH. I was doing noting on daily basis. I was very interested on the OH methods and especially the 2PF at the time, since I was struggling with trying to understand "the I". The 2PF felt mostly similar to my noting practise except that the focus of attention was more directed at the feeling of me-ness. The other part of the formula, the I-less mode, was also relatively easy to obtain and recognise for me. Why I eventually shifted from insight/noting practise to OH practise, which is a combination of guru yoga and ati-meditation (=do nothing)  was that I noticed that it was bringing me forward on the path. I started to have shifts in my mental clarity that were permanent (in the sense that I'm still as clear in my baseline clarity as I was a year ago when I had my last really notable shift). Also sitting in meditation was now suddenly effortless. I found recently my old hand writteng logs from noting sessions and they were filled with teeth grinding and physical discomfort. Only rarely I had glimpses of something other than my noisy monkey mind. But now the baseline in the sits is always pleasant clarity. The standard oscillations are still visible though, so I do dark night. But the tension falls away almost completely once I sit to do my meditation.

I have a practise log here that you may want to have a look at. Another user here who is doing the OH practice is anj.

Samvega:

I'm also wondering if these practitioners are confusing themselves the A&P phenomenon for actual awakening, considering how varied and vague the A&P can be.

It's a valid concern, but I'm not thinking it's that. First of all, the clarifying effect on the mind has remained and not evaporated. I have not heard anyone mention that they would have slid back to their old modes. I don't remember the details, but atleast one OH practinioner's awakening had been confirmed in another tradition, I'd have to search a bit to find out which tradition it was. Also, in OH we are using a Bhumi mapping system, where somebody with experience at these things can look at the practicioner and see if they have awakened, as the I-tension is gone from their energetic expression. This is a bit of a controversal issue here... There is a Shinzen Young talk, where he explains seeing this photobook that apparently contained pictures of people who had lost the gripping hold of the I (they were homeless people if I remember correctly) and from the first look at this book he was able to see what was going on. When he told the photographer what he had seen in the pictures the photographer freaked out, because Shinzen was the first person to notice  the thing he had been photographing. I tried to contact Shinzen and bring OH and Bhumi mapping system into his attention, but it's unclear to me if he has seen the photographs of OH practicioners and wether or not he has a comment on them.

Edit: Just to clarify, when I mentioned doing guru yoga, I meant guru yoga on Padmasambhava and Yeshe Tsogyal, not Kim Katami
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Jehanne S Peacock, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 167 Join Date: 2/14/14 Recent Posts
Samvega:

Why haven't many tried it yet?

I gave a lazy response on this particular question, but today I'm equipped with some more thoughts on this. What got me thinking was listening to this podcast where Michael Taft is interviewing Daniel Ingram. Starting around 37:33 minutes, Michael asks how Daniel got rid of the post-modern dickishness (haha. loved the question emoticon). In his answer Daniel explains how, after watching a particlarly devoted practinioner go about their practise and reporting the results to the retreat teacher, he realized that he had been intellectualizing too much at the expense of actually doing the practise properly. The explanation is only a couple of minutes long. This reminded me of the tendency to value intellectual considerations over practise. I would think it's especially prominent on discussion forums. So perhaps this in part explains why people haven't tried the method. They simply think about whether or not it could work but do not try and see.
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Nick O, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 317 Join Date: 11/5/17 Recent Posts
A few months ago there was a short blurb written over at r/streamentry regarding Kim's method. It caught my attention as it was very similar to a technique I used to practice. I responded with the following:
....I developed a similar technique when I was first exploring insight practice. It was helpful for Mind and Body, Cause and Effect and Three Characteristics stages (to reference MCTB nanas).

  • Find a knot or point of tension in the body, which was most of the time a negative emotion or feeling of aversion in the center of my abdomen.
  • Focus on it until it would start to "unravel" and often drift outwards from the center.
At the end of the session, the knot would either be completely gone or have turned into a "cloud" that was perceived outside the body. I would also use self-identification location to find this knot. Where do "I" feel the sense of "I"? And go from there. After crossing the A&P, I dropped the technique as I didn't find it to be applicable...
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Pepe, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 329 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
Hi (my older account was PP, so I'm not new to DhO nor am I a OH member). I'm trying out 2PF nowadays. In a few days I will open a post with questions on Katami's formulas, as there are many details that are not clear enough. Perhaps, I'll add a practice log too. So far, in the first two days, it triggered A&P and the knot in the middle of the brain (Taoist's niwan) is clearly sensed. As far as I can see, the 2PF points to SE, albeit the depth of the shift is to be seen, taking in consideration Culadasa's stress on fighting dullness (a point tha OH members seem to be worried about too, as I read in another thread).

Regarding Open Heart self promotion in DhO, I would say that its model would please more easily in the taoist crowd (say thedaobums.com) and perhaps the main selling advantage I see is that it could work as a bridge between taoist and buddhist circles. 
 
Alexey Ilyichev, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Post: 1 Join Date: 1/29/17 Recent Posts
Samvega:
I wonder if there is any short cut to enlightenment, atleast the first stage of enlightenment (sotappana).

Hi!

I wouldn't call that a shortcut, but rather a direct method. And I think it is real SE.

I practiced vipashyana for years. In 2016 I've read MCTB and started to take Kenneth Folk's lessons. I did 1 hour noting sits twice a day (Kenneth style) for about a year when I was introduced to Kim's guidance with 2pf. I think I was stabilized in the knowledge of equanimity by that time. It took me 1.5 months to cease, but it finally happened. I had quite clear cessations for some time after that. Well, first ones I didn't notice at all, but then repeated several times very clearly.

I also guided 10 people to SE. They were mostly beginners, who never practiced meditation before. The way I do it is:
1) Start with noting
2) Exchange meditation reports and feedback 3-4 times a week
3) Use my knowledge of nanas to make better sense of what's happening with the student and give precise recommendations
4) Get to the beginning of the knowledge of equanimity
5) Switch to the two-part formula

It took about 2.5 months on average for the payed students, and 5 for the free students. Interesting correlation, isn't it? ;) Well, the data is small still...

A few times I tried introducing people to 2pf earlier, but it didn't go well — at that stage studens were having difficulties following 2pf instructions correctly. I think it could probably be overcome by closer collaboration, but it is more comfortable to me to just allow more time with noting.

Concern about confusing it with A&P is a valid one, but I think I know how to differentiate it in a conversation. Some of my students claimed it was SE when they reported A&P. The key differece to me is how one is talking about it. When its A&P, it sounds like something grandeous and wonderful etc. Path attainment feels so ordinary that all of my students didn't notice anything special the day it happened.

For all of my students SE changed their normal perception over next 1-2 months. To me that's the most reliable criteria.

I also use photos to see if the first bhumi is opened. I see that what is described as SE in MCTB matches very well to how it reads in the reports when people open 1st bhumi with the two part formula.

I think there is a difference in how people experience SE depending on the method and previous experience. It seems that those who didn't have much practice before, get stronger DN's during the review stage. I think it has to do with the perfection process. According to OHBM opening is when the energy begins to flow, and perfection is further cleaning of that same place (cleaning karmic traces). Basically when you attain SE by noting, you clean more karmic traces before SE than by two part formula. And hence when you attain SE with two part formula, karmic traces surface more intensely afterwards. I don't have enough data to confirm that, it's a hypothesis.
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Ben V., modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 342 Join Date: 3/3/15 Recent Posts
Alexey, 

Your post is very timely for me, as it answers reflections and speculations I've had today. I started practicing the 2PF a few days ago, after reflecting a few days whether I`ll give it a try or not. I've been doing noting practice for many years, and my rough estimate (could be wrong) is that I have been lurking in equanimity for around two or three years. Feeling stucked there and also feeling sudden attraction to self-inquiry methods as a possible way to break through at this point. 

My gut feeling is that self-inquiry becomes quite relevant in equanimity nana, hence my attraction to 2PF nowadays. I have wondered how my noting practice could be integrated with the 2PF and reflected that perhaps noting until equanimity then switch to 2PF may be a good way to integrate the two methods in a powerful way. So I was delighted to read about your experience on this. 

For some who questioned this method above I think considering Kenneth Folk's model of 3-speed transmission (3 gears) to awakening may enlightened the discussion and questioning. 

Noting is first gear
The second part of the 2PF is in second gear category.

I've also reflected that noting seems to give a broader look at the elements of the mind, a slow but natural progression through various layers of the mind. A familiarization with all the intricate details of mind and how it works. 2PF seems like a method that quickly crashes right to the goal. Applying it in last few days, it got me to equanimity territory, or so it seems, with the occasional mysterious pulsing and vibration in the middle of the head.

This exploration is just beginning for me. I'm giving the 2PF an honest try for awhile. Maybe I'll post more about my explorations of this later in my log.
The principles of 2PF are in full accordance with Buddhist teachings IMHO, even though a different approach from satipatthana/noting at 6 sense doors.

Best wishes to all on the path.
Samvega, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 2 Join Date: 8/10/17 Recent Posts
Ben,

I’m glad its working out for you. Best wishes to you.
I somehow feel Alexey’s post highly suspicious. Don’t you? It looks like everything in the reply is made up stuff just to propagate Kim’s material, IMO.

Anyway, on the other hand, I’m definitely not disregarding the effectiveness of self-inquiry like or other advaita like practices. Rather I have serious speculation over the desperation Kim has in declaring his students ‘awakened’, within a week of practice for an hour daily. Also the 98% success rate and all those very-hard-to-believe stats.
Again, my question is not whether or not self inquiry practices work. I’m aware it’s been there since millenia and I have all respects for that. Rather my question is whether it works as scarily quick as they claim to be. Highly suspicious of transparency there. Doesn’t matter how good a teacher's teachings are, when it is a matter of credibility of the teacher.

I had only noticed Jehanne talking about 2PF here on DhO, no one else. And hence expected her to reply. But then again she says she was already a stream enterer when she took up this practice and that she has only seen great results in others. So thats about it. Thanks Jehanne, for pitching in. Appreciate your view.

I found Daniel’s post on this thread to be excellent. https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/4221305#_19_message_4217340

After seeing Nick O’s mentioning of r/streamentry, I came across this thread there where one mentions this: https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/9e4eva/practicea_rapid_path_to_awakening/

thomyor:
"I do have first hand experience with Kim; we exchanged emails in mid-2016. He was very pleasant, polite. We chatted for a while about different practices/methods, rigpa, dreams/sleep, role of lineage, etc.

My bullshit alarm went off particularly strong when he told me that three of his students reached '6th bhumi', which he said was equivalent to arahatship, in three years doing just 1-2 hours of practice a day. Either they're the most talented meditators this world has ever seen, or Mr.Katami is a huckster. Arhat after 3 years doing an hour or two a day? Sounds good!

Being polite doesn't make him not a huckster. It would probably be in my own interest to be supportive of Kim, seeming as he told be I was 'awakened for sure', but I can't in good conscience recommend him on the basis of my own experience with him, as well as the opinions of people I really respect.

Maybe his methods really do work, maybe he really did have all those visions like the Tertons of old, maybe Padmasambhava himself really did tell Kim he should go by Pema Rinpoche and found a new school of Buddhism called Pemako Buddhism. It's possible I suppose. Plenty of great Tertons have improved the lives of many many people; eg: Jigme Lingpa was a remarkable visionary, and his practices seem to work. So perhaps there is a non-zero possiblity that Kim is a genuine teacher. There is also a significant probability that Kim is a wrong'un and is fooling sincere practitioners who don't want to admit that it's too good to be true.

PS: It looks like Kim has taken down the page where he details the various visions he claims to have had, although it still says that "I've been called a dharma treasure revealer (tib. terton) and an emanation (tib. tulku) of a Tibetan dzogchen master by lamas of the nyingma tradition". I'd like to know which teachers have recognised him as a tulku & terton.

The terton thing is pretty batty, for those who aren't familiar with it, but they still have a certain way of doing things; usually the gTerma is practiced in secret by the individual who revealed/discovered it, for something like 18 years. Only when when they have practiced it for that long and they have ironed out the kinks, checked it works, then they start teaching it. There have been other modern terma, such as the Aro gTer, although that has been certified by some very key figures and the Aro lamas have a very clear lineage and thorough training.

PPS: I sincerely wish that his methods do work for those who do practice them. May they be of benefit!"

Pretty much cleared up questions, thanks y’all for participating. May we all find benefit in whatever we’re practicing!
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Ben V., modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 342 Join Date: 3/3/15 Recent Posts
Hi Samvega,

I don't find it suspicious. But also, I'm not trying out the 2PF mostly for its claim to high success rate for 98% of people (although this certainly caught my attention), but mostly because the formula itself feels like they are indredients that make sense to where I am in my practice at this point. 

It seems like I may be lurking in equanimity (could always be wrong about this) but feeling like a todler learning to walk in it. The first part of the formula offers me some stabilization in samatha, which seems appropriate at this point because I have become a "vipasssanizing"machine in my practice and have been adviced on learning to soak a bit more in tranquility. The 2nd part formula is also a natural thing for me at this point, since in equanimity (or wherever I'm getting to in noting), the "feeling of self" seems to become more and more transparent, or the last thing to note in pealing this onion of the mind. So Alexey's post made sense to me in that regard when he mentioned noting till equanimity then switching to 2PF.

I'm taking this as an experiment as well, and don't feel like I'm getting caught in some cultish thing. I'm keeping the pragmatic spirit as well: see how this works.

At the end of the process I may share my experiences in my log with this method.

Shargrol:

Thank you for chipping in. Your advice is precious as always. I keep track of my goal, which is as Kenneth Folk, if I remember well, once described enlightenment: Unstickiness of phenomena in the mind. That's what I'm aiming at: being less and less "highjacked" by phenomena of body and mind: In the seen just the seen...etc
T DC, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 389 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
To give Kim the benefit of the doubt, I know very little about the open heart methods.  I have seen numerous people posting on here that they found his methods helpful, or that they could relate to them possibly from other advita style practices they were doing.  There don't seem to be any harm in the methods.

However, there are no real shortcuts.  At best there are only practices and methods that optimize our progression in attainment.  The path is long and hard - this is the reality.  It doesn't have to take forever, and it is very possible make major achievements in a short period of time, say several years.  Immediate attainments are suspect however.  (JP said this very well - the middle ground consensus on here is that it both doesn't have to take forever, and isn't immediate.)

Personal story: I struggled for years with mainstream directionless, mushroom style Buddhist practice - in this time I made very little progress.  Then I found MCTB, and with a dedicated and clear technique, and a clear goal, I made very rapid progress, gaining stream entry in about a month.  After stream entry I found 'direct pointing' - at that time a marginally popular, upstart technique promising immediate results in awakening.  I went for it - the direct pointing folks soon confirmed that yes, I had awakened.  Nothing seemed particularly different, it wasn't the be-all end-all result I was looking for.  They told me oh ya, no worries, it will just deepen over time.  I'm sure however it would not.  I went back to MCTB and soon, with great dedication to practice, progressed to 4th path and beyond.

I see some strong parallels here.  The lesson is that achievement in meditation is like anything else in life - you get out of it what you put in.  Hard work and dedication pays off - immediate results are inherently suspect.  If the technique appeals to you go for it, try it out and see it if works for you - such is pragmatic dharma.  Don't sell yourself short though and get complacent just because someone tells you that you've awakened - the biggest pitfall on the path is that you become deluded into thinking you're done and then fail to progress.
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Richard Zen, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 1623 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
To me, if there is any short-cut, it is that your habits change radically from a particular practice. That's the test. If your habits are still the same, then it's baloney, or you have lots of work to do still.

Also different habits, and different sides to our personality, need different practices. These practices change our habits slowly. 

The chance that you've done all the practices to their fullest extent in a few days is probably impossible. The people who have had quick attainments often can't tell you how they got theirs. It's quite possible that their brain shifted in a biological way from the practice that is unique to them.

The fastest way is getting the therapy, psychological study to accept your self and your weaknesses and still be okay with yourself. That does a lot already!

Learn to self-soothe independently from others, by talking nicely to yourself. Self-parenting. Then when you have a healthy sense of self, there's less resistance to work with in meditation, though there will still be lots of resistance. 

Consistent practice and acknowleding everything in your experience, while enjoying concentration practices to keep you emotionally fed, will help you stay present and not wander.

To me, Buddhist practice, and even when you gain major achievements in the paths, are a life-long endeavour when applying these insights in a MODERN WORLD. There is always more to learn, especially when dealing with toxic people and challenging situations like illness.
shargrol, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 1529 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Building on what Richard said, it's important to think about what the short cut is leading to, much much more than trying to find the short cut method. If you have a clear goal, all of this stuff about meditation will make much more sense and our practice path will be much more obvious.

I'm going to suggest that the goal is basic sanity. Not being entrapped by limited development, reactive patterns, bad habits, repressive thinking, fantasy, infatuations, regressions. It means stepping out of the role of a child that is dependent on the parent, and becoming an independent adult. Awakening, both the first little steps and the last little steps, should always lead to greater sanity, well being, compassion, resilience, independence, and self-sufficiency. 

Methods and practices that say "hey, give up your critical thinking for a while, listen only to the teacher, report your findings using only our terminology, ignore things that don't fit the model" always seem to offer short term benefits, but in the long term, they trap you in dependence.

It's always fine to experiement with different methods -- but always keep your independence and personal power. And be sure to experiment with different psychological methods and theories. In many ways these are 75% of what it takes to awaken. It is very difficult to have a decent sitting practice if every time you sit you are retraumatized by old memories or are covering up the present moment with lots of fantasies and intellectualizing. That said, many "meditation methods" are basically psychological practices it's important to see that, too.

There are many things that can be "hacked" in spirituality -- you can give yourself interesting experiences through sleep or food deprevation, you can have odd catharitic moments by overstimulation and retraumatization, you can intellectualize developmental insights so that you can parrot the words without really being at that developmental level, you can be marketed or hypnotized or brainwashed into thinking and doing many things. The power of imagination and self-deception is amazing, too. It really is endless. It's a minefield.

But the nice thing is you really can't lie to yourself. If you let yourself relax and be at ease, you'll know if practice is really helping or not. Go to your body. Are you actually more relaxed and at peace? Or are you buzzy and frantic with lots of thoughts and ideas and ambition? How do you really feel about your self and the present moment. Is it simply so? Or is it a heroic adventure to greater and greater accomplishments and --- aha!, if this is the way your mind is going then your present self and the present moment is just a means to an future end and you really aren't able to be at home in the present moment. If you are always future oriented, you're not crazy but there is probably an aspect of basic sanity that is being overlooked. 

In terms of what it means to have these insights in a modern world, this paper does a great job of talking about adult development. You will notice that it sets a very high bar for adult development. Many of us never get close to the end stages and all of us over estimate where we are at! emoticon

[url=http://www.cook-greuter.com/Cook-Greuter%209%20levels%20paper%20new%201.1'14%2097p%5B1%5D.pdf]http://www.cook-greuter.com/Cook-Greuter%209%20levels%20paper%20new%201.1'14%2097p%5B1%5D.pdf

Looks like the link has trouble --- try googling "cook greuter nine pdf"

I'm pretty convinced that if people gave up on "enlightenment" and instead used enlightenment methods for "basic sanity" people would make much deeper progress.
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Jehanne S Peacock, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 167 Join Date: 2/14/14 Recent Posts
So much good stuff has come up in this thread!  emoticon

shargrol:
Building on what Richard said, it's important to think about what the short cut is leading to, much much more than trying to find the short cut method. If you have a clear goal, all of this stuff about meditation will make much more sense and our practice path will be much more obvious.
I agree on your point here basically. I woudn't personally use the term shortcut for 2PF as Karl discussed in his post above. That term hasn't been used within OH, I think, but it has been added. Initially I did not want to nitpick on the choice of words, but it's true that calling it a shortcut gives it a bad name in the sense that you are describing here. Shortcutting sound suspicious and why should speed be a matter of concerns in psychological develpoment anyways? It sounds foreign if someone is advocating a form of psychotherapy that gets rid of your neurosis in a week. "Beware of unearned wisdom" as Carl Jung is quoted of saying. It's usually used in context of psychedelics but I could see it used in the context of some weird mind-technique too.

To understand what the 2PF is, one has to consider the unawakened mind. The classic example of an unawakened mind at work is shown in this (Not imaginary!!!) dialogue that I've witnessed
A: Hi there.
B: Hi, what's up.
A: Pretty good, what about you? It's such a nice weather today!
B: Yes indeed! Hey have you been working on that project we talked about last week?
A: Actually not so much, there was some complication along the way and we have to wait for some more information before taking any action. But I'm feeling positive about the project!
B: Ok, well, see you around!

Then person B comes to me: Did you see that see that? That guy is such a dick thinking he owns the world. Did you see how he was humiliating me??!
The problem is clearly, that person B is believing all his silly impressions and acting them out in the world creating pain in himself and everybody around him. I've pondered a lot what should be done to get people to realise the dynamics that are at play here, and how the concept of fundamental ignorance is played out here. How can you tell somebody to snap out of it when they don't understand that they are in it in the first place?

Various techniques that aim at becoming familiar with your sensory and mental events are directed to bring about this realization. They are good and they do work. But we have also many instances where people have done vipassana noting for years with no breakthrough. Or they have sat in zen monasteries years and years, not quite cutting through to the better side. 2PF is basically vipassana. The only difference is that instead of saying "just observe everything and as much as you can" it points one to look at the somewhat arbitrary feeling that is the source where the example in the dialogue stems from. It doesn't tackle anything other than the precious self that is in danger of being offended by all the spooks it is busy creating. When you learn to turn on and of this generator of useless personification, you see through the fact that it is empty of inherent existence. You become free of it's grasp because you have seen in your own eyes how this moster is operating and that it's just fluff and no substance. The classic vipassana can show you exatcly this. But it is really hard to be certain that the meditator is not leaving out some aspects of reality. In countless threads here I see Daniel Ingram and other explain again and again that people should look for this and that. I see what they are trying to say. But for me atleast it is difficult to follow that advice. It is much more easy for me to follow the instructions on the 2PF, while basically similar, have some difference aimed at helping point the attention to the right direction.

Goal of practise? Good point, not always easy to formulate. I don't remember what my goal was when I started getting interested in this stuff way back. I was just eagerly curious. I had not major existential problem. I just was sucked to the meditation literature like a moth to a lamp post. Currently my goal is to become free and to free others. I resonate strongly with the boddhisatva vow.

shargrol:

I'm going to suggest that the goal is basic sanity. Not being entrapped by limited development, reactive patterns, bad habits, repressive thinking, fantasy, infatuations, regressions. It means stepping out of the role of a child that is dependent on the parent, and becoming an independent adult. Awakening, both the first little steps and the last little steps, should always lead to greater sanity, well being, compassion, resilience, independence, and self-sufficiency. 
All this sounds good. Sanity is my favourite topic. The example dialogue above is a classic example of insanity. I have no real method to bring about sanity in people, except again and again talk sense and explain things and make them confront the situation from a novel angle that jolts them enough so that they see it as unnecessary behavior. This applies to friends who are not following any buddhist framework. With buddhist framework it becomes easier with various methods as these people have already accepted the paradigm that there is something to be gained from observing the mind. 2PF is useful for these kind of folks. If they have success with other methods, that's great. But if someone came for me for help and asked what they should do in order to espace their insanity, I would advice them to meditate like in the 2PF (as a rule of thumb. I'm perfectly capable of adjusting my advice, but it turns out I'm just a lay practinioner and I only know what has been useful for me. It is painfully obvious that other people do not enjoy all the same things I do. I've recommended MCTB to 3 people who were perfect candidates for it. None of them ever read it....)

shargrol:

Methods and practices that say "hey, give up your critical thinking for a while, listen only to the teacher, report your findings using only our terminology, ignore things that don't fit the model" always seem to offer short term benefits, but in the long term, they trap you in dependence.
I'm guessing that you are not bringing this up as a bad example from the worst method ever but are referring to your interpretation of 2PF/OH? I say your interpretation because this is not what I'm seeing at all. Do you wish to elaborate on this a bit? The 2PF guidance only last for a short while, and in order to conduct the discussion in a somewhat contructed manner maybe these sort of wordings are used, but that's it. It does not describe the attitude in general.

shargrol:

It's always fine to experiement with different methods -- but always keep your independence and personal power. And be sure to experiment with different psychological methods and theories. In many ways these are 75% of what it takes to awaken. It is very difficult to have a decent sitting practice if every time you sit you are retraumatized by old memories or are covering up the present moment with lots of fantasies and intellectualizing. That said, many "meditation methods" are basically psychological practices it's important to see that, too.
I agree with this. I've been sketching a post where I discuss psychological personality development and contrast that to meditative attainments. My current hypothesis is that they are largely one and the same. But that makes me actually more interested in how different meditative methods can help bring about personal development.  The theory of personal development by Robert Kegan is what caught my attention. David Chapmann wrote in interesting text about it. Here'e an excerpt, doesn't stage 5 sound an awful lot like having some solid insight on the higher paths?
Here systems are relativized. They move from subject to object, and
are subordinated to, and organized by, the process of meaning-making
itself. You are no longer defined as a system of principles, projects, and commitments. You have
several such systems, “multiple selves,” none of them entirely
coherent, and which have different values—and this is no longer a
problem, because you respect all of them.
Development beyond stage 4 is driven by seeing contradictions within and between systems. For stage 4, a system is justified by an ideology
that grounds out in some set of ultimate principles. When you realize
that the system doesn’t work as well as the ideology claims it should,
you look for an alternative set of principles. This can motivate
adopting a series of political or religious affiliations, each of which
seems at first to be right; and each of which eventually fails you.But at some point you realize that all principles are somewhat
arbitrary or relative.
There is no ultimately true principle on which a
correct system can be built. It’s not just that we don’t yet know what
the absolute truth is; it is that there cannot be one. All systems come to seem inherently empty.This uncomfortable midpoint of the stage 4 to 5 transition is sometimes called “stage 4.5.” Here it’s common to commit to explicit nihilism.
Understanding that there is no ultimate meaning, one comes to the wrong
conclusion that there are no meanings at all. It’s common to declare
that you are “beyond good and evil,” to adopt ethical nihilism.
That’s also possible at stage 2, where it can be sociopathic, and leads
to blatantly unethical actions. At stage 4.5, one retains the empathy
of communalism and the respectfulness of systematicity, so doing harm on
the basis of this theoretical nihilism is rare.
Eventually, one notices that meanings continue to operate quite well
despite their lack of ultimate foundations.
Systems re-emerge as
transparent forms. You no longer see by means of systems, but can see through
systems as contingent constructions that most people mistake as solid.

Stage 3 sees systems as unfair but unavoidable external impositions;
stage 4 sees them as rational necessities justified by ultimate
principles. Stage 5 recognizes that they are both nebulous (intangible, interpenetrating, transient, amorphous, and ambiguous) and patterned
(reliable, distinct, enduring, clear, and definite). Nebulosity and
pattern are inherent in all systems, and are therefore inseparable. This
becomes risible.
My current view is that models that try to predict things are always doomed to fail as they reach a limit to their applicability. So models are actually only descpitions. You use them as tools knowing that they will break after the third strike.
shargrol:

There are many things that can be "hacked" in spirituality -- you can give yourself interesting experiences through sleep or food deprevation, you can have odd catharitic moments by overstimulation and retraumatization, you can intellectualize developmental insights so that you can parrot the words without really being at that developmental level, you can be marketed or hypnotized or brainwashed into thinking and doing many things. The power of imagination and self-deception is amazing, too. It really is endless. It's a minefield.

But the nice thing is you really can't lie to yourself. If you let yourself relax and be at ease, you'll know if practice is really helping or not. Go to your body. Are you actually more relaxed and at peace? Or are you buzzy and frantic with lots of thoughts and ideas and ambition? How do you really feel about your self and the present moment. Is it simply so? Or is it a heroic adventure to greater and greater accomplishments and --- aha!, if this is the way your mind is going then your present self and the present moment is just a means to an future end and you really aren't able to be at home in the present moment. If you are always future oriented, you're not crazy but there is probably an aspect of basic sanity that is being overlooked. 
I should probably write about this in a separate post or in my log... In short I'd say this is very good advice. I've lost my desire for flashy things and mediative "experiences" along the way and are happy that they are not the focus anymore. I don't miss them at all. The current state of affairs is much nicer. Being honest and checking what is really going on with oneself is crucial. It's useful to have a balance in questioning yourself but also not treating yourself unfairly with undue suspicion. Middle way emoticon Darn hard to communicte! My deepest respect goes to all who have at some point been able to shed even the tiniest light on someone's path.

shargrol:

In terms of what it means to have these insights in a modern world, this paper does a great job of talking about adult development. You will notice that it sets a very high bar for adult development. Many of us never get close to the end stages and all of us over estimate where we are at! emoticon

[url=http://www.cook-greuter.com/Cook-Greuter%209%20levels%20paper%20new%201.1'14%2097p%5B1%5D.pdf]http://www.cook-greuter.com/Cook-Greuter%209%20levels%20paper%20new%201.1'14%2097p%5B1%5D.pdf

Looks like the link has trouble --- try googling "cook greuter nine pdf"

I'm pretty convinced that if people gave up on "enlightenment" and instead used enlightenment methods for "basic sanity" people would make much deeper progress.


Thank you for the tip on the Cook paper. Seems like exatcly the thing I'd be interested in! Will check it out!
Karl Henrik Warloe Eikrem, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 10 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Richard Zen:
To me, if there is any short-cut, it is that your habits change radically from a particular practice. That's the test. If your habits are still the same, then it's baloney, or you have lots of work to do still.

Also different habits, and different sides to our personality, need different practices. These practices change our habits slowly. 

The chance that you've done all the practices to their fullest extent in a few days is probably impossible. The people who have had quick attainments often can't tell you how they got theirs. It's quite possible that their brain shifted in a biological way from the practice that is unique to them.

Nobody has claimed that the 2PF adresses all habits all all parts of the psychology of selfing in a matter of days. That would, as you say, probably be impossible. The 2PF adresses one habit and one habit only, namely the fundamental habit; the sense of subject-self or "I" that lies at the core of the selfing mechanism. When that habit, which previously was taken as something real, is seen as nothing but an habit - its binding power drops away and the practitioner can get down to business deconstructing the rest of the psychology.

This latter process seems to happen slowly, yes, while with initial awakening, it doesn't have to. When it comes to awakening it seems to be a matter of having precision tools in order to study the "I" and gain insight into its empty nature. In the cases where precision tools are lacking, wether awakening will happen or not seems pretty much a gamble. I say that on the basis of knowing several people who has spent decades of practicing serious Buddhist meditation only to awaken within a few weeks when given the 2PF. And while the practice before awakening was by no means a waste of time for them, nor was awakening the end of the work to be done, the first permanent insight into the emptiness of "me" was and is a game changer every time.  
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Richard Zen, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 1623 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
Karl Eikrem:
Richard Zen:
To me, if there is any short-cut, it is that your habits change radically from a particular practice. That's the test. If your habits are still the same, then it's baloney, or you have lots of work to do still.

Also different habits, and different sides to our personality, need different practices. These practices change our habits slowly. 

The chance that you've done all the practices to their fullest extent in a few days is probably impossible. The people who have had quick attainments often can't tell you how they got theirs. It's quite possible that their brain shifted in a biological way from the practice that is unique to them.

Nobody has claimed that the 2PF adresses all habits all all parts of the psychology of selfing in a matter of days. That would, as you say, probably be impossible. The 2PF adresses one habit and one habit only, namely the fundamental habit; the sense of subject-self or "I" that lies at the core of the selfing mechanism. When that habit, which previously was taken as something real, is seen as nothing but an habit - its binding power drops away and the practitioner can get down to business deconstructing the rest of the psychology.

This latter process seems to happen slowly, yes, while with initial awakening, it doesn't have to. When it comes to awakening it seems to be a matter of having precision tools in order to study the "I" and gain insight into its empty nature. In the cases where precision tools are lacking, wether awakening will happen or not seems pretty much a gamble. I say that on the basis of knowing several people who has spent decades of practicing serious Buddhist meditation only to awaken within a few weeks when given the 2PF. And while the practice before awakening was by no means a waste of time for them, nor was awakening the end of the work to be done, the first permanent insight into the emptiness of "me" was and is a game changer every time.  

It was a game changer for me as well, during the early days, but in the end I found that there was so much more to let go of and face, that through further development, the realization that the watcher can support a lot of the ego functions and be co-opted by superiority, was a reminder that this game changer wasn't even close to what I needed to learn. The mind blanks out very quickly and consistently throws curveballs all day, making a mockery of my insights.

Some of this you can see in Actualism, and in Daniel's post on MN 20:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html

I needed to learn that as long as I follow and continue thoughts, I'm in the self and, barring some other major insights I haven't realized yet, the earlier realization doesn't mean much when I'm lost in thoughts. I have to look at these thought-feeling associations as "worlds" and pick and choose which ones to follow, which is like reminding me of those insights over and over again. In someways it gets me closer to stream-entry in that these thought worlds that I catch can be like all encompassing bubbles of experience, that includes the present moment, not just the past or future possibilities. The near future.

Thoughts are always looking for gratification of some kind (pleasure or superiority), whether I want them to or not. Superiority also being a pleasure when I gain an insight that I think will help my survivability.

MN 20 shows me how all pervasive the self is in phenomenological experience. It gloms itself to any experience, especially experiences that require more computation than watching the breath.

Without a cessation experience I'm still looking for more clinging lurking in my experience. Even stillness has plenty of thinking, but much less draining thinking than rehearsing, or trying to imagine perfect control of my future.

Anyways, all of us can think of "short-cuts" and feel the pain in such thoughts. If not careful it can increase chasing intentions that hurt. "Act now or you'll miss out on short-cut!"

For me it's still peeling an onion. Even deep equanimity needs lots of concentration to avoid posturing (reaction formations) in daily life. Without a lot of continuity with the breath it's not genuine. If someone makes fun of me or threatens rejection, I can still feel something.

There's still this sublte thinking that thinks it's observing other thinking (the self). Awareness watching awareness.

Though typing all this is really helpful. emoticon
Karl Eikrem, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 10 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Richard Zen:
Karl Eikrem:
Richard Zen:
To me, if there is any short-cut, it is that your habits change radically from a particular practice. That's the test. If your habits are still the same, then it's baloney, or you have lots of work to do still.

Also different habits, and different sides to our personality, need different practices. These practices change our habits slowly. 

The chance that you've done all the practices to their fullest extent in a few days is probably impossible. The people who have had quick attainments often can't tell you how they got theirs. It's quite possible that their brain shifted in a biological way from the practice that is unique to them.

Nobody has claimed that the 2PF adresses all habits all all parts of the psychology of selfing in a matter of days. That would, as you say, probably be impossible. The 2PF adresses one habit and one habit only, namely the fundamental habit; the sense of subject-self or "I" that lies at the core of the selfing mechanism. When that habit, which previously was taken as something real, is seen as nothing but an habit - its binding power drops away and the practitioner can get down to business deconstructing the rest of the psychology.

This latter process seems to happen slowly, yes, while with initial awakening, it doesn't have to. When it comes to awakening it seems to be a matter of having precision tools in order to study the "I" and gain insight into its empty nature. In the cases where precision tools are lacking, wether awakening will happen or not seems pretty much a gamble. I say that on the basis of knowing several people who has spent decades of practicing serious Buddhist meditation only to awaken within a few weeks when given the 2PF. And while the practice before awakening was by no means a waste of time for them, nor was awakening the end of the work to be done, the first permanent insight into the emptiness of "me" was and is a game changer every time.  

It was a game changer for me as well, during the early days, but in the end I found that there was so much more to let go of and face, that through further development, the realization that the watcher can support a lot of the ego functions and be co-opted by superiority, was a reminder that this game changer wasn't even close to what I needed to learn. The mind blanks out very quickly and consistently throws curveballs all day, making a mockery of my insights.

Some of this you can see in Actualism, and in Daniel's post on MN 20:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html

I needed to learn that as long as I follow and continue thoughts, I'm in the self and, barring some other major insights I haven't realized yet, the earlier realization doesn't mean much when I'm lost in thoughts. I have to look at these thought-feeling associations as "worlds" and pick and choose which ones to follow, which is like reminding me of those insights over and over again. In someways it gets me closer to stream-entry in that these thought worlds that I catch can be like all encompassing bubbles of experience, that includes the present moment, not just the past or future possibilities. The near future.

Thoughts are always looking for gratification of some kind (pleasure or superiority), whether I want them to or not. Superiority also being a pleasure when I gain an insight that I think will help my survivability.

MN 20 shows me how all pervasive the self is in phenomenological experience. It gloms itself to any experience, especially experiences that require more computation than watching the breath.

Without a cessation experience I'm still looking for more clinging lurking in my experience. Even stillness has plenty of thinking, but much less draining thinking than rehearsing, or trying to imagine perfect control of my future.

Anyways, all of us can think of "short-cuts" and feel the pain in such thoughts. If not careful it can increase chasing intentions that hurt. "Act now or you'll miss out on short-cut!"

For me it's still peeling an onion. Even deep equanimity needs lots of concentration to avoid posturing (reaction formations) in daily life. Without a lot of continuity with the breath it's not genuine. If someone makes fun of me or threatens rejection, I can still feel something.

There's still this sublte thinking that thinks it's observing other thinking (the self). Awareness watching awareness.

Though typing all this is really helpful. emoticon

Yes, of course there is still a lot to be done after awakening. The selfing-mechanism has many more layers than its core. There's all kinds of stuff like you mention; object-selves such as self-based emotions, thoughts and feelings and subtle self-based mind states such as mental dullness and euphoria etc. Yet, that is sort of besides the point here. 

It's a bit like hitting puberty. Allthough it felt like it at the time, as an adult you can see that getting your first pubic hairs and a deeper voice doesn't mean your a man or a woman. Yet without it the initial release of hormones that instigates all the changes that occur in puberty, one is not going to become a man or a woman. Not in this life time anyways. What I mean is that, allthough it is not the end of the road (by far), awakening is absolutely essential in order to reach the higher levels of insight and eventually realising buddhahood. Without awakening one will not grow up. This is what makes it so important.   

And this is why it is so problematic when most traditions insist that in order to have this initial insight one has to undertake ardious mediation practice, spending contless hours in retreats etc. In Open Heart, based on our experience, (and I suspect this view is the source of OH-teachings being mislabeled as "sortcuts") we say that this is not the case. Insisting that it should take years and years is clearly a conclusion based on induction, and the same as insisting that all swans are white on the basis of having seen only white swans. It is ignorance. 

So, again, while deconstructing the entire psychology of selfing seems to take years of dedicated practice on and off the mat, awakening to the empy nature of the subject-self is quite straightforward given the right tools. The Two-Part Formula is such a tool and it is available for all. 
shargrol, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 1529 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Karl Eikrem:


And this is why it is so problematic when most traditions insist that in order to have this initial insight one has to undertake ardious mediation practice, spending contless hours in retreats etc. In Open Heart, based on our experience, and I suspect this view is the source of OH-teachings being mislabeled as sortcuts; we say that this is not the case. Insisting that it should take years and years is clearly a conclusion based on induction, and the same as insisting that all swans are white on the basis of having seen only white swans. It is ignorance. 

So, again, while deconstructing the entire psychology of selfing seems to take years of dedicated practice on and off the mat, awakening to the empy nature of the subject-self is quite straightforward given the right tools. The Two-Part Formula is such a tool and it is available for all. 

It's pretty clear that the traditions, all the way back to buddha, didn't think time was the critical factor. Basically everything from 7 days to 7 years is typical (as mentioned at end of satipatthana sutta).

Actually, I think the only real problem here is that OH, which is a new tradtion, uses terms like Stream Entry and Awakening in ways that are different from other older traditions. If OH said "initial glimpse into the empty nature of subject-self" there would be less confusion, right?

But I don't think that's what OH actually believes. My limited understanding suggests that OH does believe this initial glimpse is Stream Entry. And I think OH does believe that Theravadain 4th Path is much lower than the later Tibetain bhumis, etc. etc. 

There has already been a couple millenia of this kind of sectarian gamesmanship and no doubt it will continue to the end of time, so I have no illusions that it will be resolved any time soon. emoticon
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 3864 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
+1
Karl Eikrem, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 10 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Sorry I’m on my phone and quoting doesn’t seem to work very well. 

Shargrol wrote:

It's pretty clear that the traditions, all the way back to buddha, didn't think time was the critical factor. Basically everything from 7 days to 7 years is typical (as mentioned at end of satipatthana sutta).


Allright. But where are all the effective methods? Why are not more people waking up?

Shargrol wrote:     

Actually, I think the only real problem here is that OH, which is a new tradtion, uses terms like Stream Entry and Awakening in ways that are different from other older traditions. If OH said "initial glimpse into the empty nature of subject-self" there would be less confusion, right?

This is simply not true. Awakening is neither a temporary glimpse, nor is it an energetic event.  

I, for one, had several glimpses, some lasting for minutes, some for for hours, in the years prior to awakening. These, allthough meaningful in many ways, did not have a permanent effect on the mind. Awakening does.

Rather than a glimpse, awakening is defined in OH as the first permanent insight into the empty nature of «I». It is the first lasting shift and, in my opinion, the entrance to the true Buddhist path. 

As for resolving the ongoing debate, I think it would be much easier if the parties started actually listening to eachother rather than reading their own opinions into the subject matter.  
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Richard Zen, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 1623 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
Those glimpses are initially important, but that's often the excitement that leads to boredom and disappointment when there's more work to do. The skills are compartmentalized. It will often take a lot of time even for those initial insights (months for 1st jhana for me) and a couple of years for the advaita vedanta awareness, when people are distracted by a modern technological environment.

Getting my 1st jhana was a BIG deal. It showed that meditation wasn't pointless or a waste of time like I was conditioned to think beforehand.

Then advaita vedanta was huge. Now it's all these microinsights that are cumulative and hard to explain to others and lead to people writing big books. emoticon
Karl Eikrem, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 10 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Richard Zen:
Those glimpses are initially important, but that's often the excitement that leads to boredom and disappointment when there's more work to do. The skills are compartmentalized. It will often take a lot of time even for those initial insights (months for 1st jhana for me) and a couple of years for the advaita vedanta awareness, when people are distracted by a modern technological environment.

Getting my 1st jhana was a BIG deal. It showed that meditation wasn't pointless or a waste of time like I was conditioned to think beforehand.

Then advaita vedanta was huge. Now it's all these microinsights that are cumulative and hard to explain to others and lead to people writing big books. emoticon

I am not talking about jhanas, nor about glimpses or about any skills that need to be developed. I am talking about awakening from identificaton with the subject-I and nothing else. When the magic trick has been seen as just that - a trick - it is not possible to start believing in it again. It is a permanent and crucial shift in the mind. 

Ben V.:
Hello Karl,

 - "Allright. But where are all the effective methods? Why are not more people waking up?" -

Do you mean to say that there are no other effective methods? That satipatthana/vipassana, for example, as revived by the Burmese 100 years ago, are not effective? For example noting at the six sense doors? It seems to have work for many...

Open heart 2PF seems a powerful method (and I feel greatful to learn it) but the only one to make awakening possible?

I tend to think pragmatic dharma = Finding what works best for who and when.


No, I do not mean to imply that Open Heart is the only one to offer an effective method. I am in no position to claim such a thing. That being said, I have yet to see a tool such as the 2PF, which mechanically generates awakening regardless of previous experience if applied correctly, taught openly. If you have, please tell me. I'd be delighted!

What I meant was that it doesn't matter what the traditions say as long as it doesn't manifest as reality in contemporary Buddhism. Considering the millions of people who practice Buddhism today, when awakening is not happening on a grand scale, it is evident that most contemporary teachers do not give precise instructions on how to target the subject-"I" directly. Otherwise awakening would be as mainstream as mindfulness by now. 

I do not know a lot about the methods you mention. I did complete a Goenka-retreat once, so it is pretty clear to me that atleast his method is not very effective when it comes to awakening in particular. If it does happen while doing such a form of vipashyana (object-vipashyana, see below), it seems to happen by accident rather than as a result of clear instructions for how to see through the illusion. Same goes for any other retreat or Buddhist event I have ever attended. That is not the same as saying that these methods do not have benefit, just that they are not very effective in bringing about awakening. 

To me it really boils down to the lack of distinction between subject-self and object-selves. One can study different objects in the body-mind (thoughts, emotions, sensations) for a life time, and still not awaken to the emptiness of the subject-I who attaches to these objects. When it comes to awakening, the key is to study this sense of subject direcly in the context of spacious knowing-awareness. And that, for most people, takes very precise methodology. 
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Pepe, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 329 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
Karl Eikrem:

When it comes to awakening, the key is to study this sense of subject direcly in the context of spacious knowing-awareness. And that, for most people, takes very precise methodology. 

Well, perhaps one of the issues of OH is that its methodology isn't precisely precise. You may think you have eliminated all tensions related to I-thought but  there may still be subtle tensions related to attraction-aversion. How you deal with that in OH? So you may need to already have a big deal of concentration skills to deal with this while resting in a spacious knowing-awareness. Or have a real intense practice if not, and stumble with Stream Entry by chance... Also, there's nothing said in OH about spaciousness fluctuation, say an Impermanence issue driven partially by Dukkha, which points to No-Self. IMO, unless all Three Characteristics are tackled, the 2PF may lead to an intense A&P experience, rather than to SE. 
Karl Eikrem, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 10 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Pepe:
Karl Eikrem:

When it comes to awakening, the key is to study this sense of subject direcly in the context of spacious knowing-awareness. And that, for most people, takes very precise methodology. 

Well, perhaps one of the issues of OH is that its methodology isn't precisely precise. You may think you have eliminated all tensions related to I-thought but  there may still be subtle tensions related to attraction-aversion. How you deal with that in OH? So you may need to already have a big deal of concentration skills to deal with this while resting in a spacious knowing-awareness. Or have a real intense practice if not, and stumble with Stream Entry by chance... Also, there's nothing said in OH about spaciousness fluctuation, say an Impermanence issue driven partially by Dukkha, which points to No-Self. IMO, unless all Three Characteristics are tackled, the 2PF may lead to an intense A&P experience, rather than to SE. 

Have you read the instructions of the 2PF? How is it not precise when it comes to "luring" out the subject-I and then investigating it? 

As for eliminating all tensions related to attraction and aversion, is that a really criteria for SE? If anyone would claim such a thing after having their first permanent insight, I'd say they were full of shit. Fortunately, that is not what I gather from most peoples accounts online, and certainly we claim no such thing in OH.  

In my experience, after intial awakening, habitual mind tendencies such as attraction and aversion are very much still there, but it seen clearly that there is no central "I" "doing" them. They are experienced as mind objects playing themselves out within a greater context of space. Subtle mind states (alaya vijnana) also remains. In OH we mainly use tantric vipashyana (guru yoga, deity yoga) practiced in the context of non-meditation to deal with karmic mind objects and subtle mind states. 

Sorry, but the high-lighted text in your reply didn't make much sense to me. Could you explain what you mean please? 
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Pepe, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 329 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
Karl Eikrem:

Have you read the instructions of the 2PF? How is it not precise when it comes to "luring" out the subject-I and then investigating it?   
i have read the instructions. It's not precise in what to investigate once the tensions that refer to the subject-I fade. "Just keep at it" it's said in the dialogues with clients/students in the ebook. I would add "how the mind tries to jump into/become the arising thoughts?", "implied intentions?" (eg. expand spaciousness), "implied expectations?" (eg. watching how subject-I arises), "degree of dullness?" (a la Culadasa), "degree of attraction-aversion towards physical and mental phenomena?", etc. 

Karl Eikrem:

As for eliminating all tensions related to attraction and aversion, is that a really criteria for SE? If anyone would claim such a thing after having their first permanent insight, I'd say they were full of shit. Fortunately, that is not what I gather from most peoples accounts online, and certainly we claim no such thing in OH.  

In my experience, after intial awakening, habitual mind tendencies such as attraction and aversion are very much still there, but it seen clearly that there is no central "I" "doing" them. They are experienced as mind objects playing themselves out within a greater context of space. Subtle mind states (alaya vijnana) also remains. In OH we mainly use tantric vipashyana (guru yoga, deity yoga) practiced in the context of non-meditation to deal with karmic mind objects and subtle mind states. 
No one is saying to eliminate subtle tensions related to attraction and aversion, but to be aware of them (related to what I wrote above). To be able to be aware of awareness despite being agitated or calmed, energized or tired, emotional or even-tempered, etc. You don't have to reach SE to be able to do this, to some degree. Reading again my post, I see that my words might not have been clear enough.

Karl Eikrem:
Sorry, but the high-lighted text in your reply didn't make much sense to me. Could you explain what you mean please? 
Spaciousness changes, sometimes it's just inside the head, other times it expands out of the body. This expansion-contraction dynamic (Impermanence) may be best seen when a physical or mental phenomena arises or vanishes (Impermanence) and the subject-I reacts to it either by attraction or aversion (Dukkha). Once you see repeatedly how the subject-I arises, you get the insight into No-Self. If a method goes all the way towards deep relaxation (with some of degree of both investigation and concentration), it may well lead to an energetic experience were A&P and SE symptoms overlap somehow, but that doesn't guarantee that Dependent Origination will be seen.  
tapihritsa, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 4 Join Date: 12/19/18 Recent Posts
Kim Katami is 100%  charlatan. He is not awakened. This guy is on a spiritual ego trip. He doesn't teach because he has wisdom, he teaches because he so dearly wants to be a guru, leader and a teacher. He hasn't subdued his ego. 

Maybe at one time in the past he was serious about the truth and spirituality, but he has lost his way big time. My guess is that he got frustrated after practising so arduously without actually finding anything. He got desperate and invented his own religion. It is hard to say if he sincerely and actually believes the things he say or is he intentionally just scamming people. 

Not everybody is destined to be a guru. Some buddhas will remain mostly unknown - some will teach publicly and be famous. It all happens by itself. Katami will never achieve enlightenment as long as he wants to be a teacher.

Also, he is quite worried about money and income. He doesn't trust the existence. If he has transcended his mind and body, why then is he so worried about the money? What difference does it make if you're poor or rich? Both will happen by itself. If you are beyond time, what difference does it make what happens in the future?

Did you know, that Katami has claimed to have written a book with Jesus?

The following bhumi analysis by Katami used to be on his website, but it was later removed - he said: "The episodes that concerned teachers of other schools than Open Heart have been removed" -- "Plus, there is always the factor that "Who does this guy think he is mapping such great saints!?"

Dalai Lama Bhumi 7/13 

Paramhansa Yogananda 1893-1952. Bhumi 6/13 
Ramana Maharishi, 1879-1950. Bhumi 3/13 
Papaji, H.W.L Poonja, 1910-1997. Bhumi: 1/13 
Jiddu Krishnamurti, 1895-1986. Bhumi: 4/13 
Mooji 2/13 
Eckhart Tolle 1/13 

What do you think? Is this correct? Also, every Open Heart practitioner - do you get the same results? What do you see? Also, what is your current bhumi level? Is it above 4? That would mean, that you are more evolved than Ramana, Krishnamurti, Mooji, Papaji and Tolle. Does that feel right?

Kim Katami doesn't like advaita vedanta.  
http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-problem-of-ramana-and-nisargadatta.html 

I think he is afraid of advaita vedanta because it is too simple and absolutely uncompromising for him. He feels threatened by it. Probably he is afraid, that if he seriously lost his ego, then he would also have to abandon his plan to become an internationally recognized spriritual teacher - and who then would pay his bills and support his family?

It is a fair question, that: Can a false guru be of any use on a path to enlightenment? Maybe we get a guru we deserve. But if someone is actually serious in realizing the truth and achieving nirvana in this life, I strongly advice avoiding Katami. 

If some one is interested in self-inquiry, find out about Robert Adams for example. He always taught for free - as Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj and Papaji also never asked for any money.
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Ward Law, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 123 Join Date: 9/7/15 Recent Posts
How do you know all this? It is one thing to claim he is deluded, based on his spiritual assertions, but how are you certain he is "100% charlatan"? If it is "by their fruits" that you know someone, what are the bad fruits in this case? Do you have equally penetrating insight into the fruits of the "list of great saints"? Tolle and Mooji?

I am not defending Katami or trying to start a debate; I am a skeptic, and skepticism does not choose sides. 
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 3864 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
How do you know all this? It is one thing to claim he is deluded, based on his spiritual assertions, but how are you certain he is "100% charlatan"? If it is "by their fruits" that you know someone, what are the bad fruits in this case? Do you have equally penetrating insight into the fruits of the "list of great saints"? Tolle and Mooji?

I like also to pay attention to how a thing is being sold, or recommended, or justified. Claims of almost perfect success are dubious. Excessive self-promoting is dubious. Claims of being "the best" or "the most" are dubious.

Awakening isn't a formulaic process. It's not a one size fits all endeavor. Look at all the practice logs online in all the various websites devoted to awakening in all the various traditions and this becomes obvious.

Caveat emptor.
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Andromeda, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 393 Join Date: 1/15/18 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
How do you know all this? It is one thing to claim he is deluded, based on his spiritual assertions, but how are you certain he is "100% charlatan"? If it is "by their fruits" that you know someone, what are the bad fruits in this case? Do you have equally penetrating insight into the fruits of the "list of great saints"? Tolle and Mooji?

I like also to pay attention to how a thing is being sold, or recommended, or justified. Claims of almost perfect success are dubious. Excessive self-promoting is dubious. Claims of being "the best" or "the most" are dubious.

Awakening isn't a formulaic process. It's not a one size fits all endeavor. Look at all the practice logs online in all the various websites devoted to awakening in all the various traditions and this becomes obvious.

Caveat emptor.

Agreed.

Buddhists in many traditions have been working to refine the techniques for awakening over thousands of years, and then there are plenty of other religious traditions out there that have been doing the same. If it were possible to come up with a technique that really is fast and reliably effective for the majority of people practicing it, then it seems logical that someone would have done it long before now and everyone would be awake. The spiritual marketplace is like any other: if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. 
tapihritsa, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 4 Join Date: 12/19/18 Recent Posts
Here is some insights from Robert Adams about how to spot a false guru.


"Let's talk about the Satguru as compared to the Pseudo-guru. -- Is this person self-realized? -- I do not give opinions about other people. But there are signs, three basic signs, whereas you can tell a true Master from a false one. It helps to know these things. I only discuss things like this with my disciples and devotees.

The first thing to know about this: How you tell if a person is real, is by his teaching. Does he have his own teaching or are his teachings from the scriptures? There are no new teachings. If a teacher tells you :'I've had a revelation, I was picked up by a flying saucer and taken to a far away galaxy and they initiated me and told me to go back and save the earth. And they gave me a mantra that I want to share with you, gibberish, gibberish, gibberish, gibberish, gibberish, you say that twenty-five times and you become enlightened.'

So if a teacher tells you something like that, be careful. If a teacher has his own teaching be careful. But if a teacher confirms what has always been known. In other words, if a teacher lets you know, that you are the unblemished Self. That you are not the body or what appears to be, but that you are supreme intelligence, absolute reality, ultimate oneness, then you know you're on the right track because this is not new knowledge. This knowledge can be found in the Upanishads and the Vedas and in the ancient spiritual works. Never let a teacher tell you I've discovered my own teaching. That's one sign.

Another sign is: How a teacher lives personally. Investigate, find out. How does the teacher live apart from the teaching? When the teaching is over does the teacher meet certain friends outside and go to the nearest bar and get drunk? Does the teacher smoke ganja? Or go into all kinds of rituals? Find out how the teacher lives. Does the teacher practice the teaching 24 hours a day? Or only when he comes to class? What kind of life does a teacher live? Find out for yourself.

And the third point is: Does the teacher charge money for a class? Does he have a weekend seminar where he charges three hundred dollars and tells you you'll become enlightened over the weekend? Be careful. A true teaching never costs anything, it's always free, always, and money is never discussed. It is also true, that a Sage gives up everything in order to give the teaching to others. So his disciples and devotees take care of him. And that stems from the heart. But he never asks for money personally. He may ask to help a friend or somebody else, but never for himself."
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Jehanne S Peacock, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 167 Join Date: 2/14/14 Recent Posts
Andromeda:
Chris Marti:
How do you know all this? It is one thing to claim he is deluded, based on his spiritual assertions, but how are you certain he is "100% charlatan"? If it is "by their fruits" that you know someone, what are the bad fruits in this case? Do you have equally penetrating insight into the fruits of the "list of great saints"? Tolle and Mooji?

I like also to pay attention to how a thing is being sold, or recommended, or justified. Claims of almost perfect success are dubious. Excessive self-promoting is dubious. Claims of being "the best" or "the most" are dubious.

Awakening isn't a formulaic process. It's not a one size fits all endeavor. Look at all the practice logs online in all the various websites devoted to awakening in all the various traditions and this becomes obvious.

Caveat emptor.

Agreed.

Buddhists in many traditions have been working to refine the techniques for awakening over thousands of years, and then there are plenty of other religious traditions out there that have been doing the same. If it were possible to come up with a technique that really is fast and reliably effective for the majority of people practicing it, then it seems logical that someone would have done it long before now and everyone would be awake. The spiritual marketplace is like any other: if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. 


It would be wonderful if world worked according to logic. Unfortunately the spiritual scene is not as pretty as one would like it to be. I've heard the weridest stories. Like Zen monks taking people in a retreat to the back room and performing some maneuvers and then telling the student that they have now achieved awakening but it shoudn't be discussed with anybody. All the students were taken to the back like this. And no difference was felt by the student that would make it plausible that awakening has happened. That's fucked up. There is enormous amounts of politics and trying to maintain one's position within established religigous circles. So I'm not that convinced that they always have the seekers best interest at heart.

As for the claim of effectiveness, how would you know without trying? As far as I know the people who have awakened through 2PF have experienced it positively and definitively. I for one cannot rule out the possibility of an effective technique emerging in this field. I still haven't seen large amount of people trying out the formula and reporting what they see. In medicine it is not unusual to have 100% success rate. Consider the abortion pill for example, prior to 8 weeks of pregnancy success is 98 to 100%. Sounds dubious but there is an underlying process that is targeted and the goal is achieved. Why would it be impossible to achieve the same in the field of spiritual matters? I admit that the path will be individual to each person, but why could the initial spark not be lighted with a certain technique?
And by the way, Kim doesn't claim that this technique is unique. He is hardly taking any personal credit for it. I see a lot of projection happening with this issue.
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Andromeda, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 393 Join Date: 1/15/18 Recent Posts
Jehanne S Peacock:
Andromeda:
Chris Marti:
How do you know all this? It is one thing to claim he is deluded, based on his spiritual assertions, but how are you certain he is "100% charlatan"? If it is "by their fruits" that you know someone, what are the bad fruits in this case? Do you have equally penetrating insight into the fruits of the "list of great saints"? Tolle and Mooji?

I like also to pay attention to how a thing is being sold, or recommended, or justified. Claims of almost perfect success are dubious. Excessive self-promoting is dubious. Claims of being "the best" or "the most" are dubious.

Awakening isn't a formulaic process. It's not a one size fits all endeavor. Look at all the practice logs online in all the various websites devoted to awakening in all the various traditions and this becomes obvious.

Caveat emptor.

Agreed.

Buddhists in many traditions have been working to refine the techniques for awakening over thousands of years, and then there are plenty of other religious traditions out there that have been doing the same. If it were possible to come up with a technique that really is fast and reliably effective for the majority of people practicing it, then it seems logical that someone would have done it long before now and everyone would be awake. The spiritual marketplace is like any other: if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. 


It would be wonderful if world worked according to logic. Unfortunately the spiritual scene is not as pretty as one would like it to be. I've heard the weridest stories. Like Zen monks taking people in a retreat to the back room and performing some maneuvers and then telling the student that they have now achieved awakening but it shoudn't be discussed with anybody. All the students were taken to the back like this. And no difference was felt by the student that would make it plausible that awakening has happened. That's fucked up. There is enormous amounts of politics and trying to maintain one's position within established religigous circles. So I'm not that convinced that they always have the seekers best interest at heart.

As for the claim of effectiveness, how would you know without trying? As far as I know the people who have awakened through 2PF have experienced it positively and definitively. I for one cannot rule out the possibility of an effective technique emerging in this field. I still haven't seen large amount of people trying out the formula and reporting what they see. In medicine it is not unusual to have 100% success rate. Consider the abortion pill for example, prior to 8 weeks of pregnancy success is 98 to 100%. Sounds dubious but there is an underlying process that is targeted and the goal is achieved. Why would it be impossible to achieve the same in the field of spiritual matters? I admit that the path will be individual to each person, but why could the initial spark not be lighted with a certain technique?
And by the way, Kim doesn't claim that this technique is unique. He is hardly taking any personal credit for it. I see a lot of projection happening with this issue.

Yeah, I'm definitely in agreement with you that there's a lot of fucked up politics in spiritual scenes. That's why I work hard to preserve my independence as a practitioner and mostly avoid them, or at least carefully choose my involvement so as to limit my exposure to toxicity. But I think it's reasonable to assume that if a fast track to awakening with nearly 100% efficacy in a short amount of time could actually be developed, it would have been done long before now and the people who did it wouldn't hide it away in secret. Because if they had hidden it away, what kind of compassion would that be? IMO not the genuinely awake kind and not any kind I'm interested in.

"As for the claim for effectiveness, how would you know without trying?" This is a pretty standard marketing ploy for just about any kind of snake oil out there and I don't feel any need to try them all in order to evaluate efficacy. Also, in quickly looking over Kim's website and ebook, I agree with you that there doesn't seem to be anything really new there and while I'm sure his stuff has at least some efficacy since he's borrowing from legitimate traditions, I can't imagine any reason that the efficacy rate would be any better than the traditions he's borrowed from. I generally prefer to go to the original sources myself in my spiritual practice for many reasons. And when I need help, I prefer to consult with established teachers in those traditions who have both a deep love and respect for the practices nourished over many decades and also an appreciation for their limitations and risks. (None of them have claimed anything close to 100% efficacy and in fact they have all stressed the difficulty of the path even for those practitioners with significant talent, BTW.) My personal practice is already rich and fulfilling and so there simply isn't anything about Open Heart stuff that picques my interest, especially when there is just so much enticing material already on my very long reading list and time is precious in this short life. 

As for comparing spiritual practice to medicine, I question how useful an analogy this is. But even so, your statement that it is not unusual in medicine to have a 100% success rate is simply not true. Per Clinical Development Success Rates statistics from 2006-2015, only about 10% of drugs even made it past the first round of trials and that's just the first of 4 phases (which don't require anything close to 100% efficacy). A meta-analysis on the efficacy of common drugs found only "11 out of 17 showing a minimal clinically important difference." The placebo effect is extremely common in medicine but it doesn't mean the drug is actually doing what it is advertised to do. It would be very interesting indeed to investigate if someting akin to the placebo effect could be at work with spiritual practice, but this would be another conversation entirely.

"I admit that the path will be individual to each person, but why could the initial spark not be lighted with a certain technique?" We are in agreement here. Given the reports of people on these message boards, that initial spark can be lighted without any technique at all. It would seem that many people are just highly spiritually combustible and it doesn't take much. The hard part is growing that spark, and then continually growing that spark over a lifetime of practice. For this, there are no shortcuts. 

This is just my perspective. There are many paths up many mountains and everyone needs to figure this kind of thing out for themselves. I hope you and others make good choices that lead to good practice, whatever that entails.

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Chris Marti, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 3864 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
In medicine it is not unusual to have 100% success rate.

Claims of success in medicine, an endeavor that is subject to far more process validation and hard verification than spirituality, do not transfer to this arena. Nor have I ever hear a reasonable, fact-based medical claim of 100% success. This comparison only sounds reasonable. It's not. It also plays into the descriptions of dubious claims that I posted yesterday - excessive claims of success. 100% success in the spiritual realm? Really?
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Jehanne S Peacock, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 167 Join Date: 2/14/14 Recent Posts
With regards to the medicine analogy, yes I understand that the analogy is nowhere near perfect. And I perfectly agree with Andromeda that most of medicine can't claim  such results. I work in the field and am familiar with statistics and how they choose what to report etc. Infact I think this only enforces the analogy because even with this being the case you can't deny the fact that some medicine (not sure I should call abortion pills medicine though...) works 98% of the time.  

But yes, I'm starting to get the feeling that saying some meditation method brings certain results might not actually be a good idea. I wasn't interested in OH because of this claim. I found other interesting aspects from it. 

To Andomeda mostly: I regretted saying that one should try stuff to make sure it works. It is kind of true, but obviously there isn't time to try all the stuff someone thinks you should try. Personally I pick the stuff I dedicate my interest (as we all) and put some effort in. I don't form all too solid ideas based on stuff I don't know quite well.  

"But I think it's reasonable to assume that if a fast track to awakening with nearly 100% efficacy in a short amount of time could actually be developed, it would have been done long before now and the people who did it wouldn't hide it away in secret. Because if they had hidden it away, what kind of compassion would that be? IMO not the genuinely awake kind and not any kind I'm interested in."
According to my understanding 2PF is akin to an old dzogchen method. Dzogchen is known to keep a wov of secrecy about its methods. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Is it compassionate? Or is it just wise? I don't know.
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Jehanne S Peacock, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 167 Join Date: 2/14/14 Recent Posts
"But I think it's reasonable to assume that if a fast track to awakening with nearly 100% efficacy in a short amount of time could actually be developed, it would have been done long before now and the people who did it wouldn't hide it away in secret. Because if they had hidden it away, what kind of compassion would that be? IMO not the genuinely awake kind and not any kind I'm interested in."

If you think about advertising the 2PF in this light, you might consider it an act of compassion rather than something sinister, no?
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Andromeda, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 393 Join Date: 1/15/18 Recent Posts
Jehanne S Peacock:

But yes, I'm starting to get the feeling that saying some meditation method brings certain results might not actually be a good idea. I wasn't interested in OH because of this claim. I found other interesting aspects from it. 


So here's the thing I wonder about people making these great and obviously overstated claims in the spiritual marketplace--why are they doing it? I can think of a couple of possible reasons:

1. They don't believe their own claims, but they are making them to promote their brand. Well, ethics is very important to me and I don't want anything to do with hucksters who would deceive people. 

2. They actually believe their own hype and thus are deluded. This one is even scarier to me. Not deluding myself is also critically important to me and so I don't want anything to do with people who are deluding themselves. Especially spiritual teachers, because historically delusional spiritual teachers have gone catastrophically wrong.

Either way, it's a huge red flag and that's more than enough for me to Just Say No and be concerned for others who are quick to jump on the bandwagon. As you are in the medical field, you must surely know the physician's axiom: be neither the first nor the last to prescribe a new drug. It is not just efficacy but side effects that one must be concerned about, and you won't hear the full story about those until years after a new drug comes to market. As you say, spiritual communities are known for problems of toxicity and so I would want years of good evidence about the people involved before recommending it to others, personally.

And I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to as far as Dzogchen secrecy. I've got several books on Dzogchen with clear instructions and there seem to be plenty of teachers out there teaching it. My own vipassana practice evolved into Dzogchen on its own years ago, so it's not like it's a rare gem that can only be found in some secret cave somewhere--it's just a human thing, quite natural, and people have probably been discovering it and rediscovering it all over the world for millennia. Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Centering Prayer, the Theravada 4th samatha jhana with elements of the 5th and 6th--though dogmatists might argue this point, all these seem to be roundabouts in the same neighborhood to me. It's right there waiting for any one of us.
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Jehanne S Peacock, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 167 Join Date: 2/14/14 Recent Posts
Andromeda:

So here's the thing I wonder about people making these great and obviously overstated claims in the spiritual marketplace--why are they doing it? I can think of a couple of possible reasons:

1. They don't believe their own claims, but they are making them to promote their brand. Well, ethics is very important to me and I don't want anything to do with hucksters who would deceive people. 

2. They actually believe their own hype and thus are deluded. This one is even scarier to me. Not deluding myself is also critically important to me and so I don't want anything to do with people who are deluding themselves. Especially spiritual teachers, because historically delusional spiritual teachers have gone catastrophically wrong.

I see a third option. That information in distributed with good intentions and that there is actually something to that that could potentially benefit others.

Dzogchen secrecy is a difficult topic. Maybe it is not my plcae to speak of it. I grant that I have not been dedicating two years of my life into every possible dzogchen teacher out there. My impression is based on a few sources and the general vibe I've gotten from following certain discussion groups and their dynamics and a dozen of anecdotes.  I've been happy with my current OH practise, so I have not been looking for other teachings.
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Andromeda, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 393 Join Date: 1/15/18 Recent Posts
Jehanne S Peacock:
Andromeda:

So here's the thing I wonder about people making these great and obviously overstated claims in the spiritual marketplace--why are they doing it? I can think of a couple of possible reasons:

1. They don't believe their own claims, but they are making them to promote their brand. Well, ethics is very important to me and I don't want anything to do with hucksters who would deceive people. 

2. They actually believe their own hype and thus are deluded. This one is even scarier to me. Not deluding myself is also critically important to me and so I don't want anything to do with people who are deluding themselves. Especially spiritual teachers, because historically delusional spiritual teachers have gone catastrophically wrong.

I see a third option. That information in distributed with good intentions and that there is actually something to that that could potentially benefit others.

Dzogchen secrecy is a difficult topic. Maybe it is not my plcae to speak of it. I grant that I have not been dedicating two years of my life into every possible dzogchen teacher out there. My impression is based on a few sources and the general vibe I've gotten from following certain discussion groups and their dynamics and a dozen of anecdotes.  I've been happy with my current OH practise, so I have not been looking for other teachings.

When people offer for-fee spiritual teachings and advertise them with success rates that are both implausibly high and impossible to independently verify, I think the intentions are at best very mixed and at worst greedy and deceptive. There are all too many vulnerable people desperate for transformation who are easily taken advantage of by such claims. Really, any spiritual teachings that come with statistics lead me to put my skeptic's hat on because genuine and meaningful spiritual development isn't something that can be measured. And have you ever heard the saying that there are lies, damned lies, and statistics? 
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Andromeda, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 393 Join Date: 1/15/18 Recent Posts
Adding to this since I'm in the mood for tilting at windmills today...

About the intention to "benefit" others: when spiritual teachings are for sale, or even given freely, in my opinion we should be very careful to see clearly what the aims of those teachings are before taking them up. The vast, vast majority of spirituality out there is basically nothing more than self-improvement because that is what there is a market for. People want less stress/anxiety, fewer negative emotions, increased bliss and mental clarity, more conventional happiness, etc.. And there's nothing wrong with any of that, but these things are NOT the same as insight into no-self. These may be the fruits of insight practice, but they are not the goal. In fact, chasing the fruits can be a major obstacle on the path because it reinforces the sense of a separate self. "What benefit am I getting from this? I want! ME! ME! ME!" This is transactional, not a cultivation of selflessness, and spiritual materialism if it can be considered spiritual at all.

This is what most people want and there is nothing wrong with teachers providing it. But if we might get similar "benefits" from a pill, a team-building exercise, an endorphin-filled gym session, an adrenaline-soaked skydive, a love affair, or a good dinner out with family/friends... well, what is it that we are really doing? I think as practitioners is it critically important that we take a long view and look very closely at both the teachings we utilize and where they come from.
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 3864 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
According to my understanding 2PF is akin to an old dzogchen method. Dzogchen is known to keep a wov of secrecy about its methods. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Is it compassionate? Or is it just wise? I don't know.


Jehanne, this, too, is misleading. Dzogchen and its methods is not a secret, You can buy hundreds if not thousands of books on how to practice Dzogchen. You can find hundreds if not thousands of teachers of Dzogchen practice methods and meditations. Try a Google search if you doubt this.

I'm sorry to be a killjoy here but you're only furthering my case that certain types of claims are to be taken with a grain of salt. Turning what is open and available (Dzogchen) into a mystery so that it can then be more favorably compared to another method that is new and far, far less time-tested, is just wrong.
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Noah D, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 1124 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
According to my understanding 2PF is akin to an old dzogchen method. Dzogchen is known to keep a wov of secrecy about its methods. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Is it compassionate? Or is it just wise? I don't know.


Jehanne, this, too, is misleading. Dzogchen and its methods is not a secret, You can buy hundreds if not thousands of books on how to practice Dzogchen. You can find hundreds if not thousands of teachers of Dzogchen practice methods and meditations. Try a Google search if you doubt this.

I'm sorry to be a killjoy here but you're only furthering my case that certain types of claims are to be taken with a grain of salt. Turning what is open and available (Dzogchen) into a mystery so that it can then be more favorably compared to another method that is new and far, far less time-tested, is just wrong.


Thogal practice is half of Dzogchen & is kept secret fwiw.  Hard to find good sources for it in published books, online articles or through word of mouth.  Thogal practice is kept so successfully secret that most people think Dzogchen is all about choiceless awareness, rather than half about choiceless awareness & half about magic schoolbus style visions.
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

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Thanks for the information, Noah. So... how did you find out about the magic school bus visions?

emoticon
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Noah D, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 1124 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Thanks for the information, Noah. So... how did you find out about the magic school bus visions?

emoticon
I read it in a book!

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 
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Jehanne S Peacock, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 167 Join Date: 2/14/14 Recent Posts
Turning what is open and available
(Dzogchen) into a mystery so that it can then be more favorably compared
to another method that is new and far, far less time-tested, is just
wrong.

Chris, see my response to Andomeda above. It was not my intention to make this kind of comparison.
At this moment I am unable to clarify this topic any more, let's see if I come up with something useful to say later!
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 3864 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Dalai Lama Bhumi 7/13 
Paramhansa Yogananda 1893-1952. Bhumi 6/13 
Ramana Maharishi, 1879-1950. Bhumi 3/13 
Papaji, H.W.L Poonja, 1910-1997. Bhumi: 1/13 
Jiddu Krishnamurti, 1895-1986. Bhumi: 4/13 
Mooji 2/13 
Eckhart Tolle 1/13 

Entertaining at a minimum, if true.
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Nick O, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 317 Join Date: 11/5/17 Recent Posts
Karl Eikrem:
I have yet to see a tool such as the 2PF, which mechanically generates awakening regardless of previous experience if applied correctly, taught openly. If you have, please tell me. I'd be delighted!:




Watching the three characteristics through six sense doors as shown in MCTB worked for me (and seems like it for others here). I had practiced meditation for a couple years beforehand (lightly, blindly, without direction), which may have increased concentration, but no serious prevous meditation experience. 

Pepe

Also, there's nothing said in OH about spaciousness fluctuation, say an Impermanence issue driven partially by Dukkha, which points to No-Self. IMO, unless all Three Characteristics are tackled, the 2PF may lead to an intense A&P experience, rather than to SE. 

+1 
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Ben V., modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Is there a short cut? (Open heart meditation)

Posts: 342 Join Date: 3/3/15 Recent Posts
Hello Karl,

 - "Allright. But where are all the effective methods? Why are not more people waking up?" -

Do you mean to say that there are no other effective methods? That satipatthana/vipassana, for example, as revived by the Burmese 100 years ago, are not effective? For example noting at the six sense doors? It seems to have work for many...

Open heart 2PF seems a powerful method (and I feel greatful to learn it) but the only one to make awakening possible?

I tend to think pragmatic dharma = Finding what works best for who and when.


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