Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum

This is something that I still can't make up my mind on. My job is not something that really excites me so most of my thoughts are with meditation. Im thinking, the descriptions of arahat or awakening vary from person to person. what are others thoughts on it as it relates to career and longterm decisions?

heres pro fulltime yogi assumptions/arguments/reasons:
-getting enlightened will make life easier, more productive (money), happier, others happier, suffer less, have better health
-it is the best investment i can make at this time of my life.
-Best to get it over with while im young or as soon as possible, because i Can. many people dont have the opportuninity and im lucky
-also can be able to 'spread the dharma' where it doesnt shine so bright (where im from)

negative points:
-dont know how long it will take to get it done fully
-might have weak resume as at my age have little experience under my belt, that would look even worse if i took say 3 years off.
-may be tough to psychological health
-may not be worth it as the goal won't make me that happy, or wont fix 'all my problems' in a way i may assume.
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so, i assume that becoming a realized meditator or arahat's +'s will negate the stuff like having a not so strong resume as a tiny problem, since i'd be super-productive and have super concentration.
i did read somewhere (though i can't find the thread, i think from Yabaxoule) that anagamis cut off 66-70% of suffering/duality. so a compromise goal would be: go for anagami, then stay there and that would be enough to make life easier to a significant extent as to have a pretty good life and build a career and then be in no rush to get it over with. or does 'arahat' make the difference

Yo,

In my opinion, it's best to live life as normally as you can until all of it is said and done and you can see just how it really changed your life. It won't directly affect your productivity or your concentration in the sense of work; those are specific skills you learn through experience, reading, education, and so forth.

Furthermore, try not to worry so much about the time you have available and more about worrying about how to use the time that you actually do have available. The way that productivity works actually makes a lack of time better in many ways; it is not a hindrance unless you make it out to be one. I say this both as someone whose career revolves around productivity solutions (process analysis) and someone who got it done in less than a year with a full-time job, full-time girlfriend, friends and other hobbies.

Determination and the tools provided by this community make it possible. I can tell by the great questions you ask that you have what it takes to get it done quickly. Give yourself permission to do it fast. Tell yourself that "nothing can hold me back," then live by that!

Trent

hey trent,

many strong points
-best to decide for yourself how it is when u get there
-focus on time that you do have: i think this is an important one. daniel ingram also warns on retreats being traps for thinking u have too much time/lazy practice.

you have a cool job! from the fullness of your life I assume that you are a pretty focused person with a strong continuous flow of physical and mental energy, good health and little or no afflictions such as craving, sloth, restlessness, fear. meaning, you are living very productively. your job compliments your productivity, and so does meditation. like you made it fit in a jigsaw puzzle way your being productivity oriented also strengthened your determination and you really exceled.

it is very kind of you and motivating to hear i can do it quickly. thank you for the support and kindness = ) i think im someone who has alotta 'stuff', or 'stuff' that needs fixing, so its also motivation to try to forget that and go on retreat. meditation attainment would be the 'answer' to the stuff:

so now it turns into: i seek advice on: does the level in which stuff is easier to deal with significantly becomes easier as an arahat than anagami





-Mitch

hindrances are greatly weakened no doubt though indirectly... as you mentioned in off-the-cushion thread, 4th path or 3rd path would allow one an automatic tendency to hang-out in 3rd and 4th Jhana . And as you and Tarin explained in the 'imagination' thread, you can choose not to imagine anything. i take this meaning that, the mind still wanders, but the mind is seen wandering. our 'stuff' happens, but our stuff is seen happening. I assume that when Tarin meant he wanted the end of being, he was referring to what Buddha describes as "removing remaining defilements" that one does after arahatship. and that if i wanted to remove hindrances, it would be this process, which of course sounds pretty cool, but isn't really that useful, and more a matter of personal preference (yogis in caves come to mind) or is it This practice indeed that gives one super skills, not as a result of arahatship, but as a result of conditioning.

here is the excerpt from MCTB on what I think relates to my question:

However, the karma models are not entirely junk. By seeing each
thought, state and emotion as it is, there is an increased ability to simply
watch these arise and vanish on their own, thus allowing for the causal
force of them to not wash through to the future without some
moderation of intelligence and wisdom. In this way, past causes, habits,
tendencies and the like can be mitigated through clear seeing, and the
actions we take based on these that create future causes can be done
with more awareness, clarity, and a broader, more inclusive perspective.
This is not the same thing as eliminating all “negative” karma, but it is
practical, realistic and verifiable, and thus represents the grain of truth
found in the Karma Models.

an excerpt on Daniel's take on my question on going all the way at once:

Try these two scenarios on for size and see which seems to fit with
your goals for your life, with your vision of a life well lived. In the first,
imagine working with your stuff as best you can for most of your life,
never really knowing what is just needless mind noise and mental duress
caused by a lack of basic clarity. In your old age you do the practices
that lead to realization. The benefits of that level of understanding may
then be used for yourself and others during the remaining years of your
life.
In the second scenario, you take the time early in your spiritual
practice to attain to realization, following the precise instructions and
recommendations of a well-developed insight tradition. You then use
that level of increased clarity, acceptance, intimacy with life and
transcendence to work on your stuff and benefit others for the rest of
323

Models of the Stages of Enlightenment
your life. The second approach seems vastly superior to me, but it is still
possible that these things are a matter of taste. One way or the other,
take responsibility for the choice you make.

Hey Mitch,

Thank you for the kind words, I appreciate it. Though I assure you that I do still have my own problems, especially when it comes to lethargy! I think the "stuff" gets easier to work on, but it's really best to treat everything as it's own separate little issue and solve each little problem to the best of your abilities, always with your goals (whatever that is) in mind.

What Tarin and I are talking about in the imagination thread is of a different matter, which you can read about on another website (linked in the 4th page of that thread). For an arhat in the context of how the DhO defines it, imagination and feeling will continue on just as it always has, and that is no problem if they do not see it to be a problem. Again, best to just wait and see what you come up with as you practice, always observing the world with your own senses. Don't settle for the words of anyone else, as you are always the one who knows yourself best.

Trent

An interesting question. This is a very high level topic but I think it is important to discuss. The anagami has a steadily diminishing sense of 'self'. It becomes so subtle that it is no longer noticed and it is almost required (seems to me) that the anagami think they are 4th path at some point. Life as an anagami is pretty easy, particularly as it progresses - as there is this subtle 'I' (where you can keep your wonderful emptiness) and subtle 'other' (where you can put all that feeling, suffering stuff) and still be totally convinced you have achieved awakening. Towards the latter part of it you start experiencing very deep periods of stillness that lead you to all kinds of misconceptions (based on personal experience). So, in a sense 'stuff' is much easier to deal with as an anagami.

The shift between the two (4th path) is powerful, distinct, and is quite unsettling. You have lost your subtle self and other and all that stuff you were avoiding hits you right in the face. It can be a rough ride. For the anagami that was happily immersed in their late third path bliss and misconceptions it can be a tough time. Nevertheless, I don't think anyone that has gone through it would choose to go back (but you would have to do it to understand why).

Thanks Trent,

On lethargy, I've been 'allowing' myself to do that a bit as i think its also a grey area: sloth/being tired/sleepy
as long as it does not lead to the other hindrances. the 'yoga sun salutation' works for me for energy. even just part/s of it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuvfHTaftLQ if there are metta and compassion meditations, can there be 'enthusiasm' made as the object, and would that work?

Hi CheleK

thank you, that was very helpful.

that's also very strong and motivating description for me to push for anagami
i better print that out and post that on the fridge. Hehehe

on another note, on my practice, i've been trying to switch gears, from renounciate to 'getting back into the world'. a note to myself:

"as the open loose grip on the breath and background on the cushion, also the loose open flowing, breaking of rules off the cushion, being 'inbetween' and Ok"

pretty relieving, and i had a sort of better idea what the 'some dogging' and 'no dogging' felt like

@mindful1983:
***If you are serious***
about this practice then you need to find time to really work at it. Sitting for a few minutes or an hour isn't going to make it – it is just way to easy to delude yourself. You have to dig deep – you have to confront aspects of yourself that are buried very deep. The mind doesn't like to do that so it will easily say “oh, I don't need a retreat, I'll just sit here for 15 minutes and then go do something else”. If you haven't already, do at least a 10 day retreat. That will give you the direct experience of what I am talking about.

You need to trust in this process and commit yourself. Let the job and the career take care of itself. Don't worry about how long it takes. Don't make assumptions about what to expect or where you are at. Keeping a “Don't know” mind or a “Not sure” attitude will help. Work with the best teachers you can find, question your assumptions, verify your progress. If this was easy Buddha would not have spent 45 years teaching the stuff in a zillion different ways. You can do it – for sure. And having confidence in that is helpful. But digging deep and facing your suffering is not easy.

DhO is a great community and you can find plenty of support here – keep in mind that we all might also be blithering deluded idiots that have no idea what we are talking about. This is the internet – right?

Thank you Chelek.

There's a Goenka Course i'm signed up for on Oct 23, but I never tried the method.
But thats the best alternative available here. Do you think its a good idea to try that style, or to go to the retreat, and do my previous style (breath & noting) i also read that goenka style is not best for where i am.

I did my first 10 day with Goenka (after 2nd path) and found it very helpful. The body scan technique - though not particularly exciting - is powerful and will put things 'to the test'. I say go for it and report back!

thanks, and for helping in screwing back of my head. my apologies for the fridge thing.