Author: Ryguy913
Forum: Practical Dharma

A little while after I sat down today and meditated for about a half hour, I was sitting in my living room with a pestering question of why I had sat down in the first place. As I made my dinner a few hours later, I stood at the stove and imagined a man coming into my apartment and aiming a gun at my head. With this image in mind, a feeling of fright arose. I determined that my goal in meditation was to be able to confront an experience such as this without fear. In a word, my goal, it became clear, was to be unshakable.

Does this jibe with others' goals, others aims in practicing? For those who are further along than most, have you had experiences where you've thought to yourself, yes, that is what I was aiming for, in that instance, thanks to the perspective I've earned due to practice and insight, I did not waver, I did not falter, I did not give in? If this is a far cry from the goals of others here, I would be very glad to learn what in particular is the gulf, the gap, between my view of the path and yours.

Please know, in advance, however, it is unlikely that I will abandon this goal. To me it does not seem too lofty, nor insufficient in its ambition. In other words, I am not interested in attempts to 'change my mind' in order to conform to your view. I am, however, interested in a discussion of what is possible and what is worthy of our efforts.

yup, jives with me well. and i have reflected on experiences i've had where fear either did not occur or vanished quickly, and thought to myself, 'i am learning that in the actual world, there is never a need to be perturbed. that which is perturbed is an illusion.. and can cease to exist.'

yes, definitely. i also love that word "unshakable", or the analogy with the lotus flower. it jives with my goals. every time i think about my goals, they seem to be less clear and changing though.

is it dependent on our past habits. If we have a lot of fear karma, and say addictions, or p.t.s.d., or body memories, then fear will arise, so a lot of 'working out stuff' needs to happen, and we would be better in being fearless if we have worked on All our stuff.

how much is meditator's effort, and how much is based on Path attainment?
are other enlightenment schools more known to be efficient in providing unshakability?

how about the buddhist mahayana 'interdependent co-arising', it says that you have to replace the consciousness with the 4 immeasurable minds,: joy kindness compassion and equanimity(unshakability) then is the 4 immeasurableMinds then a practice that would make it easier

if unshakable is a term associated with equanimity, then developing equanimity should be what to do. im reading now 'the 4 sublime states' from buddhanet.net. it says, to develop equanimity, you need insight into the law of karma and no-self. i find that when i think about my understanding of karma and no-self, it gives me strength, and it helps me put myself in that experience of no-self. this works for temporarily removing or weakening afflictive emotions.

Author: telecaster

We are all connected but different, you know?
I think if I were to have a goal like that it would just make me suffer because I'd always be comparing the goal to a reality that would most likely always come up short.
For me the goal would be an ability to live comfortably with whatever my reaction was -- anywhere from being unshakable to peeing in my pants.

i agree too telecaster. i am the type who is habitually too hard on himself. going back to my post on the 4 immeasurable minds, 'being comfortable living with whatever the reaction was', could also go with approaching and reflecting with 'loving kindness' that failure or success in applying equanimity.

hmm i dont know if im going irrelevant or getting somewhere

My goal is to know 'The Truth' – no matter what that entails.

Nothing wrong with 'unshakable' as a goal. It can take you all the way if you are willing to thoroughly investigate your assumptions.

Take a look at:
Home>The Big Issues>Fundamental View

“The Four Seals of the Buddhist View
-All compounded things are impermanent.
-All phenomena are empty, without inherent existence.
-All dualistic experience is intrinsically painful.
-Nirvana alone is peace, and is beyond concept.”

Author: Ryguy913

Thanks everyone for your replies. I've been reading and re-reading them. I can see a number of good avenues for discussion emerging, but please be patient if you're hoping I would get into the exchange more rapidly.

So, thanks for your patience as well as your contributions.

Author: han2sen

My 2 cents: I think the initial question really is about one's karma. And the relative uncertainty of that. Being unshakable means you're never tested to the point at which you have capacity for success and/or failure, thus have no capacity to learn. This is looking for an absolute where none exists. I also infers that the merit one has accumulated does not have karma as well, that we are forever victims of our past. This too is unrealistic, unless we are incapable of learning. A little bit of dharma goes a long way; events never happen where karmic law does not have its own special logic.
p e a c e
h a n s e n

Author: AlanChapman

Great question, Ryguy913.

I've been thinking about this a lot, because I'm a recovered enlightenment chaser. I have the answer, and I hope it doesn't sound glib:

My goal when I sit is to sit.

I think it always should have been too, beacuse it makes no difference to the promised outcome of meditation.

In my case, it is not so much a desire to have the ability to supress emotions, such as fear.. but act skillfully upon whatever experiences are encountered in life. Using your example, I would be focusing my own efforts towards learning to set aside the "chatter" that would have me speculating fearfully about the possibility of man entering my home and putting the gun to my head, (and subsequently extinguishing that accompanying fear). Are there not skillful applications of fear? Maintaining the vehicle is important, and maybe if someone had a gun to my head, fear may be part of a skillful response.. but is thinking about maintaining the vehicle important?

Equanimity itself seems to be an attractive goal but perfection of equanimity seems like something that will be farther down the path for me. In my personal circumstance, this fear that manifests without substance.. the "suffering" (fear) that arises out of mental movement seems to be a step in the right direction.

Thank you for the topic.. I have been inspired to investigate and evaluate my own goals.

I couldn't find a better way to add these old posts from the Wetpaint site, so I just cut and pasted below.

It's basically a conversation between myself (Ryguy913) and han2sen about understanding and working with situations through the lens of karma.

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han2sen 10. RE: Goals
Sep 10 2009, 5:10 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 10 2009, 5:10 AM EDT
I think there is a classic quote - your karma is your karma, you own it, etc. If you can face that, well, that is as close to fearless as you can get. A lot depends on your world view, if everything happens without any semblance of purpose, how can you find a center. On the other hand if everything is karmic law working itself out, then we can face the reality even though we don't understand it..



Ryguy913 11. RE: Goals
Sep 10 2009, 10:19 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 10 2009, 10:19 AM EDT
"I think there is a classic quote - your karma is your karma, you own it, etc.
"han2sen, I believe you may be referring to one of the 'ten reflections' of monastics, also traditionally chanted by both lay and monastic practicioners in the impersonal form of "All living beings are..." One translation below:

"I am the owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and live dependent on my actions. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir."

This is an excellent point you're making about karma and purpose, intelligebility, etc., I think the crux of my aim in this goal is to perfect present karma, such that the consequences of past karma (intruder with a gun, fright) do not move me from a clear, peaceful, and, as you say, centered mental attitude, especially in the face of bodily harm and loss of life. Why especially the latter? Because sooner or later I'm going to have to give up this body and this life entirely, and so to be afraid of approximations thereof is a foolish burden. So, I might have phrased my goal in different terms: I meditate in large part because I'm aware that I am a fool. I meditate to become less of a fool, to become less and less afraid of losing this body and leaving this life. And, as Tarin pointed out, the sensation, the feeling, the thought, the suffering of fear is itself an illusion, significantly not real -- in the sense of not an important factor in forming present karma, to be abandoned and let go of, perhaps in favor of one of the divine abidings, as mindful1983 mentioned.

(Cont.)


Ryguy913 12. RE: Goals
Sep 10 2009, 10:31 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 10 2009, 10:31 AM EDT
However, I wouldn't take any one of these - equanimity or another - and equate that with the word unshakable. Compassion and loving-kindess and gratitude could just as well be unshakable and perhaps more appropriate in a situation like the one I mentioned of a homicidal intruder (which we might understand psychologically as a symbolic representation of the universal situation of death and loss of life).

And so, tying in Chuck's point about the fundamental matter of right view, the awareness strengthened in meditation that these realities all 'exist' according to the three characteristics, supports the very clear, peaceful, centered mental attitude, a place from which one may be unshakable -- even exulting -- in the face of perceived dangers such as bodily harm and loss of life.

Which, again, is not to say that I'm there....which, again, is why I meditate. You could say I'm practicing for death. And in the meantime I'm finding that the same aspects of the path that follow from that practice also have value as a way to live well.

Just now I looked outside my window and heard rain. I thought of my bike up on the roof of my apartment, and -- knowing I'd covered it with a tarp -- did not feel perturbed, but rested instead with the awareness that it was raining.

To draw out the metaphor, happiness is my bike, the practice is the tarp, and the rain is karma.




Ryguy913 13. RE: Goals
Sep 10 2009, 11:00 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 10 2009, 11:04 AM EDT
"For me the goal would be an ability to live comfortably with whatever my reaction was -- anywhere from being unshakable to peeing in my pants. "Certainly, a reaction such as peeing in my pants would be the result of past karma, and no problem at all.

An action, though, would be where I would emphasize being unshakable -- not fleeing out of a longing to stay alive, not attacking out of hatred for the intruder, not persuading the intruder to spare me out of fear of death.

Unshakable, as I said previously, is about present karma. And right view, as Chuck mentioned, is the key factor in creating skillful present karma, and/or, as mindful1983 said, being equanimous might be the best move, accepting past karma and peeing in one's pants or laughing or weeping or whatever. Not putting any intention into the situation at all. And perhaps, as I said before, such a stance would bring about something far from fright, exultation -- being grateful, joyful, blissful -- in the face of anything, even a homicidal intruder.

[edit: "or, as mindful 1983 said" changed to "and/or, as mindful1983 said"]


han2sen 14. RE: Goals
Sep 10 2009, 4:31 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 10 2009, 4:31 PM EDT
Got that right. Yes that is the quote - do you know where it is found? I cut and pasted it long ago and don't have the citation

"I am the owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and live dependent on my actions. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir."

There are a number of tests one could construct to check our clinging and attachment. Then there are those who burn out and seek annihiliation, also and unskilled desire. It is aversion then not attachment. They all come from a long list (I'm looking for that citiation too) where attachment leads the list and hence gets more emphasis. So if you seek annihilation you may welcome the intruder, a state of mind which then is not the goal - the goal is to wake up while you are still alive.

I woke up slightly sick today, an I really get into the blues and self-pity. I added a second sitting session to the first one. Did NOT want to deal with DhO, but after reading your post am very glad I did it anyway.

c i a o

h a n s e n



Ryguy913 15. RE: Goals
Sep 10 2009, 7:01 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 10 2009, 7:01 PM EDT
"....Then there are those who burn out and seek annihiliation, also and unskilled desire. It is aversion then not attachment....So if you seek annihilation you may welcome the intruder, a state of mind which then is not the goal - the goal is to wake up while you are still alive.....

....Did NOT want to deal with DhO, but after reading your post am very glad I did it anyway.

c i a o

h a n s e n


"Hi, hansen. Here's the link to the webpage where I found that quote: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/dhammayut/chanting.html#tenref

As for annihilation, I smiled sadly just now, as I reflected upon times when I thought that annihilation was worthwhile, even possible. Aversion to life, desire for non-becoming, could be called a destructive impulse. And yet it also posits another painful sense of self. When I think about fear of death, I realize there is also fear of life (rebirth) buried within that fear of death. And, simultaneously, when I look at attachment to life (rebirth) , there is also attachment to death buried within that attachment to life, as well.

I would recommend this article to anyone who is unsure of a motivation for meditating:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/walshe/wheel261.html

(Cont.)



Ryguy913 16. RE: Goals
Sep 10 2009, 7:20 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 10 2009, 7:20 PM EDT
To get back to the intruder:

As one who does still hanker after all as personality, individuality, life, death...and consequently deals with fear, aversion, hatred, desire, and confusion, I would be extraordinarily mindful in the presence of the intruder, because if I did not do so I would fear him, be averse to him, hate him, desire him, and or confuse him with another. "To wake up while you are still alive." That is the goal, but death can come anytime and so it is important not to be attached to life, even as a vehicle for awakening.

In other words, I've come to think that, rather than looking at this in terms of life or death, one might look at it in terms of clinging or non-clinging, craving or non-craving, attachment or non-attachment, self-view or non-self-view, bondage or freedom. In that light, the matter of whether or not one is dead or alive is rather unimportant. In those circumstances, meditation might make a lot more sense, and its motivation, as Alan said, might be more simple.

Any errors in this view are entirely due to my own lack of understanding, and I apologize for them, should they emerge. Thanks to the compassionate efforts of so many others. May I show my gratitude by investigating further and establishing well-being on a better foundation than was there before. There is much left to do, and may I do it well.

May all beings safeguard their happiness as best they can.

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You're very welcome!

Thanks for your reply.

I was reading some of Ajahn Chah today, and he spoke about two kinds of suffering: the kind that leads to more suffering and the kind that leads to the end of suffering.

What I may have left unclear when I initially posted this item about goals was that the mental kind of chatter, as Wayne so aptly put it, is something I see as a symptom of the first kind of suffering, a manifestation of it.

And my goal, in other words, is to not merely do the work but to begin to get it done. I meditate because I am interested in suffering in such a way that I begin putting an end to suffering.

The other day there was a shift in which I noted emotions as sensations and saw them as momentary tensions, momentary movements in body and mind. It seemed that sometimes the mind movement preceded that of the body, and other times it was the other way around.

From looking this way and seeing the afflictions in terms of their form, matter, construct, shape, their nature - if you will, I found a strikingly different attitude towards them began to emerge. The thoughts describing this attitude were something like, "Fear is just fear," or "frustration is just frustration." Things were easy to let go of and seen through. There was no reason to follow them, push them away, or do anything with them. They merely arose, were noted, and passed away on their own. To call them afflictions would have been silly, even. They were more like blips or vague annoyances. But they were actually so interesting as blips, as merely themselves in and of themselves, that they weren't even annoying.

I also notice that, though I've been writing about it as past-tense, this attitude re-emerges as reality in a softer, more slippery form the more I remember and write about it.

If anyone has any practical tips, questions, etc. related to this sort of thing, please feel encouraged to share. Thanks!

In the meantime, I'll continue with the practice.

To describe a little more: While contact (in the dependent origination sense) is often like an elephant's footprint in mud, hard to note because of the discombobulation involved, this is like a rock skipping across water, easy to note and lots of fun! But then the skipping rock becomes like a feather or like wind, even harder to note than the footprint. It's like sometimes the suffering is too much, and sometimes the suffering isn't enough! Does that make sense?

Also, would concentration practices help with noting the subtler stuff? And what's best with the grosser stuff, like being mauled by an elephant? Rather then being left reeling, I want to tackle the elephant and ride him home, like the old zen oxherder. Brahma Viharas come to mind, but maybe just because I know them. Anybody have any suggestions? I'm happy to describe more, if that's necessary.

Practical tips? Yes, don't be attached to any view or any outcome. I don't know what the guys from the PCE thread would say, but as a Many Worlds quantum theory Buddhist, there are always many possible, probable, and certain worlds that emanate form each moment. If you take the one that conforms to your personal predilections, inevitably there will be certain consequences, and the more selfish you are, the more tragic they will be. This is a form of fearlessness in and of itself. Again, basic karmic law. It is amazing what happens when you let go, this is a kind of sudden school, I guess.
h a n s e n
p.s. I like this discussion quite a bit, but lost it in the move to DhO2, glad to have it back!

More interesting even than thinking about what the goal is feeling what the drive to find the goal is.

This is profound practice. Finding the sensation streams that make up the goal and staying with them as they twist, turn, morph, expand, contract, fade, re-arise, etc. is actually one way to get to the core of the thing.

Sit and find the sensations that comprise the problems, or seem to, and stay with them. Stay with wanting. Stay with goal. Stay with looking for something or moving to or away from something and those sensations that seem to cause that, moment after moment, second after second, minute after minute, and see what happens.

This basic focus encompasses suffering, as suffering drives the process, and also compassion, as compassion drives it also, and also impermanence, as it all changes all the time, and emptiness, as the sensations arise on their own, and even AF stuff, as the drive itself is the "somatic charge" that Tarin and Trent talk a lot about.

Thus, sitting with the changing patterns of "problem", "goal", "questing", "wanting", "striving" and the rest with good acceptance, good moment-to-moment consistency, and wide-open precision really gets to the heart of what all this points to.

Thank You Daniel - that got me back into this "very moment"

Yes part of it comes from the universal condition of dukkha and part of it is the additional dukkha which is self-inflicted by harmful living. I need to get back to the point I was at in taking ALL the five precepts as a full-time training. That worked really well for me in the past.

I haven't actually kept up with all of Tarin & Trents posts - I am taking the DhO incrementally so to speak, and trying to read the MCTB before I get embroiled in ALL the topics. I read through MN 111 in connection to "noting" This is a stunning and amazing sutta...

Your suggestions... this reminds me of the video of an octopus learning how to open a glass jar, to keep turning the object over and looking at it multi-dimensionally, from every possible scenario, investigative, not discursive, or didactic. Basically the octopus ran it like a computer program, not heuristically, until the jar was open.

p e a c e

h a n s e n

"For instance, one could wish to become enlightened. This is a purely future-oriented goal. One could also wish to understand the true nature of the sensations that make up one’s world so clearly that one becomes enlightened. This adds a present component and thus makes the whole thing much more reasonable and workable. One could simply wish to deeply understand the true nature of the sensations that make up one’s world as they arise in that practice session or during that day. This is a very immediate and present-oriented goal, and a very fine one indeed. It is also method-oriented rather than result-oriented. This is the mark of a good goal.
Similarly, one could try to be kind, honest or generous that day, try to appreciate interdependence that day, or try to stay really concentrated on some object for that practice session. These present and method-oriented goals are the foundation upon which great practice is based. Purely future-oriented goals are at best mostly worthless and at worst very dangerous."
-MCTB

This is where I am at in MCTB. Does this seem like a painfully slow read? Well, like I said not long ago, my nervous system from birth grew along pathways "hard-wired" to the non-dominant cerebral hemisphere, so a book for example may be a long process, but I literally "eat" the book in the process and can form conceptualizations from it as well as retain it precisely in long term memory, however unfortunately the short term memory of it dictates the pace, which tends to be slow. So you see why I placed emphasis on my promise, my resolve, to read this book

I liked the above excerpted passage in particular in regard to the hypothetical scenario (who know when this one ceases to be hypothetical?) about the hostile intruder - which aspect of goals are workable into practice and which aren't, as well as what are the motivations for the goals (to end suffering, ignorance) because suffering (dukkha) and ignorance are painful though endurable. Okay, I see the "self" operating in that - - I also see "shame" and "blame" lurking around the corner too - -

I'm still a bit jarred by the previous-to-that passage about why for example focussing on breathing is non-sensical since it is really only impermanent gross or crude perceptions - normally to me my experience, including my sense experience, is simply what it is regardless of whether it is of something crude or otherwise, okay, sense experience is not one of the Three Doors but it is - just that, the content of the experience. The content of the experience of course cannot open any of the Three Doors, but that does not mean that the ability or skill developed in, for example taming the body, observing the bodily functions, seeing the fact of experience, isn't also skill or experience that can also be used to deal with the Three Doors, hmm?

Overall, I am starting to get a clearer picture of the path I had been on, for example since I became deeply involved by virtue of CML (Thich Nhat Hanh) meditation techniques in samatha jhanas, any why I got stuck in what Shinzen Young calls the "Tranquillity Trap" or was it "Serenity Trap" either way, I had to opportunity to discuss that in the other thread on concentration. How I got out of it (developing a deep skepticism of it) which paradoxically led to yet higher samatha jhana states. Well if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like nails, right? All I really had going was concentration based so getting to the 4th jhana began to open up to a new awareness, eventually leading me here (DhO) among other things.
p e a c e
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