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Eckhart Tolle and Krishnamurti Arahats?

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In the page http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/page/Actual+Freedom+as+4th+Path+Experience, Chelek said that presence and so on is there at third path and is transcended at fourth path. I am curious as to your opinion on this topic, and whether you are implying people like tolle and krishnamurti were not arahats as they speak a lot about presence, being, the timeless, space, beauty, truth, etc. which you label as third path stuff. It seems hard to believe that these kind of teachers just stagnated at third path, but can that happen?


Thank you
- Martin

RE: Eckhart Tolle and Krishnamurti Arahats?
Answer
9/8/09 9:44 AM as a reply to Martin Potter.
These two helped me get to where I am. Love to hear others opinions on this.

RE: Eckhart Tolle and Krishnamurti Arahats?
Answer
9/11/09 6:17 PM as a reply to Martin Potter.
Let me say this (as the former CheleK),
Teachers can absolutely get stagnated at a certain level. More correctly, that is just where they are at and this process of awakening takes place at its own pace for each of us. The problem arises when teachers don't know where they are at in this process. Daniel speaks of this in his book very clearly. Don't know where tolle and krishnamurti are at but I find their teachings valuable and relate to what they have to say.

The point I wanted to make with third path is that there is a much more subtle sense of self (then before). This subtle self can get very absorbed in the experience of emptiness and it also has a subtle 'other' where it can in a sense hide everything it doesn't want to deal with (like feelings, thoughts, etc). So someone teaching from that point may come off as everything is love, peace, perfect, there is no thought, no anger, etc. (I plead guilty as having been one of these - luckily I don't think anyone listened to me).

The sense of emptiness is not lost at 4th but the subtle sense of self that clings to it is. And at that point one is left with simply what is – in every moment. And that includes all your habitual patterns of behaviour, every thought you ever tried to suppress and say “That's not me”, etc. and also emptiness. From that point on everything changes.

So with Richard, in his 'enlightenment phase' he speaks of “driven by a divine mission”. Only in third would there be any sense of anyone that could be 'driven by a mission'. There remains activity, there remains interest. But no one that 'has' them. In his post 'actual freedom phase' there is a sense of 'right now' a sense of this is it – there is this present moment. Everything is found here in this moment. And that is this shift that I am talking about. This is really the beginning of a whole new phase and Adam West presented a very good overview of this process over in The Anagamis Dilema thread so check that out.

I would also like to add that just because a person is at third path, or even not yet a stream winner - has nothing to do with how well they can help others on this path – provided they stay cognisant of where they are at and work from that level. I don't recommend self-assessment. How I can ever expect to assess something that by definition I have never experienced before is beyond me. There are so many good teachers and centers around these days that there is no excuse for someone not taking advantage of them.

-Chuck

RE: Eckhart Tolle and Krishnamurti Arahats?
Answer
9/11/09 7:54 PM as a reply to Chuck Kasmire.
Hi Chuck.

Great post.

Very true about stagnation, I think everyone has the experience of stagnating at various stages of their practice, why should someone teaching be any different.

That's an interesting comment you made about Richard from AF. I'll keep it in mind as I continue to practice.

On the topic of ability to help, I have read that the late Richard Rose spoke of a Law of the Ladder, where you can only help the person on the rung below you, and you can only be helped by the person on the rung above you. I have found this to be very true for me.

Here is a talk where he describes it and other laws from his book the Albigen Papers, if anyone is interested.

http://www.searchwithin.org/download/peace_of_mind_irwin.pdf

Craig

RE: Eckhart Tolle and Krishnamurti Arahats?
Answer
8/20/10 3:38 PM as a reply to Chuck Kasmire.
Chuck:
The sense of emptiness is not lost at 4th but the subtle sense of self that clings to it is. And at that point one is left with simply what is – in every moment.

Hi,

I've asked this question in another thread:

"This is what bothers me when people describe their experience as 'empty'. As 'empty' is shorthand for 'empty of self nature', one's experience could not have the quality of emptiness unless you were noticing the absence of the very thing that's agreed not to exist. In other words, the notion of self nature is being reflected upon or is still operative in some way."

Or is it simply the natural expression of a mind that reflects on itself and finds nothing? (But what could that mean beyond 3rd path?)

Or does emptiness refer to a sense of transparency? As in, all things present themselves, and do not point beyond, or hide a part of themselves - one is left with simply what is - a lack of opacity in the knowing.

Or perhaps the emptiness is the nothingness, as the naturally co-existent counterpart of the somethingness, where the mind is not distracted by either, and knows both?

You can see I am somewhat confused by this. Any help appreciated.

RE: Eckhart Tolle and Krishnamurti Arahats?
Answer
8/21/10 2:09 AM as a reply to mico mico.
This thread reminded me of the fact that Chuck is not around much anymore and I miss him being here more of the time.

Anyway, regarding your questions...

While I use the word "emptiness" at times, I agree it is really problematic and does seem to imply all sorts of things, and also seems to be used in all sorts of contexts.

I have seen the word emptiness used in ways from which I have inferred that people actually mean:

-nothingness, as in the 7th jhana
-neither perception nor yet non-perception, the 8th jhana
-luminosity, meaning that phenomena simply are presenting where they are without a separate watcher of them
-empty of a doer, meaning that this happen on their own, i.e. causally
-empty of a separate self entity, which can refer to everything from unitive experiences to stages of realization
-some anagami-dearm of an ultimate superspace or ultimate Watcher, like a glorified super-subject or super-self, or Self, or Tao or Buddha Mind or some other golden cage illusion
-other experiences that were too vague to get a handle on and other "unknown events", meaning events where there was not enough information to make sense of them for whatever reason
-Fruitions
-the experience of being an arahat

I am sure there are others.

It is an ambiguous word unless one is sure based on previous personal definition done by the user of what they mean by it or the context makes it unusually clear.

What is behind the question, meaning, what are you looking for that clarifying this word will help?

Daniel

RE: Eckhart Tolle and Krishnamurti Arahats?
Answer
8/21/10 8:06 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
While I use the word "emptiness" at times, I agree it is really problematic and does seem to imply all sorts of things, and also seems to be used in all sorts of contexts.

I have seen the word emptiness used in ways [...].

What is behind the question, meaning, what are you looking for that clarifying this word will help?

Thanks Daniel. I'm new to the 4 path model and trying to get to grips with it. When I hear that the 4th path has a 'sense of emptiness', I'm reminded of perhaps the more common usage, such as Adyashanti talking about a 'beautiful, empty nothingness', whilst admitting that empty means empty of self nature. It all sounds a bit 3rd path to me, as far as I understand the model, (an identification with awareness that doesn't find identity (the one and only thing it unconsciously 'has' left) in experience, hence 'emptiness'?)

And calling it beautiful suggests he hasn't got over himself yet.

But perhaps it's just a language thing. I've often thought that mystical utterances must be new visions expressed in an old language. What was that about the moon and the finger? Perhaps Adya gives it too much finger for my tastes emoticon

Do you understand what I mean when I question a sense or quality of emptiness (of self nature)? Is it not similar to believing you live in a world of things and then, realising this isn't the case, telling everyone about nothingness? It's as if the mind hasn't caught up with its vision.

Thanks for the input. And as I'm new to this place, let me say I think you've got a great and valuable community together here.