Author: ZenDreams
Forum: The Big Issues

(from my blog)

I discovered Buddhism through Zen. However sometimes I feel like I slipped in through a backdoor, since practicing Zen has never required me to accept reincarnation. (See Chuan Zhi Shakya’s discussion about this). So I am a little disoriented when I hear teachers from other traditions speaking so matter-of-factly about past and future lives –- as if the truth of it was obvious.

However, in letting go of my Christian upbringing, I have developed antibodies that interfere with accepting anything on blind faith. So it was not the promise of reincarnation, but statements like this that endeared me to Buddhism:

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in traditions simply because they have been handed down for many generations. ... Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. But when, after observation and analysis, you find anything that agrees with reason, and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
– Buddha, Kalama Sutta

Since I am hoping to avoid “observation and analysis” of reincarnation for as long as possible – I choose to be agnostic, and focus on being in the moment instead.

However, when I do come across teachings that depend on reincarnation – I take reincarnation to mean being reborn each day, each moment, and in each breath — and inheriting the karma from previous moments. Sometimes abstraction works too, as when I heard a teacher explain that beautiful people can attribute their looks to karma inherited from past lives. Here I equate beauty to be a personality – and voila!

I don’t take tinkering with the dharma lightly – but these interpretations don’t negate the original meaning, and I think are consistent with Buddhist thought.

I am curious about how the community here feels about this perspective!

Gassho,
Justin

There are a couple ways I can see reincarnation interpreted. I'll preface this by saying that I tend to believe all of them are speculative and largely lacking pragmatic value.

1. You have past lives, and that was really you. Note this can be a sneaky "True Self" teaching. You can be an Atlantean warrior-saint, a Native American, a Haitian Hougan, Immanuel Kant, King Arthur, ad nauseum. I suspect in Asian cultures this tends to be voiced in a less obnoxious way.

2. The Buddhism 101 college explanation, as paraphrased from some professor: "It's like a candle lighting another candle or one billiard ball hitting another; they're not the same but somehow related." Notice that while this is an interesting metaphor it also defies any solid explication.

3. Following on the heels of that one, you get the Law of Cause and Effect. Your karma persists and will carry on down the causal chain well after you're gone. Likewise, you are subject to conditions that arose practically aeons ago.

4. The strange Tibetan teachings about willfully reincarnating, e.g., in the body of a recently dead (very, very recently, I would hope) person and reviving the body. I didn't make this up, it was in one of Tenzin Wangyal's books.

Obviously, #3 seems to be the most pragmatic, since it partly serves as an injunction to be careful about your ethical behavior. In my own experience the teacher's I've been exposed to usually refer to reincarnation half-jokingly.

I tend not to worry one way or another about this--if you practice well what you believe is secondary. On the other hand if you sit with a group that likes "sharing" about their past lives, maybe sneak out after the walking sessions.

Author: ZenDreams


Hi Nathan...

Number 2 sounds familiar -- I think I heard a version using a stack of dominoes as an analogy, the relationship between lives being akin to the relationship between the dominoes. This model fits the “moment to moment” interpretation of reincarnation nicely – but still requires a leap of faith to explain the literal interpretation of reincarnation.

Would you say that number 3 is like waves washing up on the sea shore? The energy of the wave not being lost but returning to the sea? In other words, the effect you have on other people continues to ripple through their lives after you’re gone. I suspect this becomes more and more satisfactory as you lose your sense of self – or include everyone in your sense of self.

Actually I don’t worry about it either. (A Zen master would probably answer such questions with a whack from their stick.) But I do worry about which schools of Buddhism I might be excluding myself from. (Not that Zen isn’t satisfactory, but I like exploring.)

Author: woman_alone

Personally I buy into the idea, though I didn't start out that way. Personal experiences and the experiences some close friends/family have acted as the proof that I need. My understanding goes something like this: in this lifetime you are clinging/fabricating/holding onto the framework of "I" - "I" am separate from the rest. You use your body/mind to delimit "inside" (me) from "outside" (the rest). When the body goes, unless you've gone through the work of unbinding, you still hold the perspective "I". This being the case, you are not "free" to "be", so you re-take a form that allows you to easily uphold the "I" perspective. Hence "another life".

My understanding is that personality, body, location, situation have no carry over. If you want to call that "you", then "you" are not the same person. That being said, relationships follow you the way your lifetime-consciousness doesn't (effluents). Hence your actions have real consequences, and are not simply "cashed out" upon the surrender of the body.

All that being said, you don't need to believe in order to practice. I don't practice because I want to have a better life NEXT time. And I don't practice because of previous lifetimes either. I practice because it's "right" for "me" now. I practice because I have this profound curiosity and passion for experiencing unbinding, and because of an accompanying rightness inherent in it. Most people I know don't practice the way I do, and they don't get the feeling of rightness around this kind of practice that I do. So they are doing what they need to/are moved to do with their life. That's really all that matters. If practice without belief in re-incarnation works for you, then that's all you need at this point (says me).

Justin,

Two points which I have found helpful when dealing with any teaching:

"How do I pick this up?" - this is basically the Snake Simile out of the Suttas. A teaching can turn around and bite me when picked up from the wrong end, just like a snake will. A form of observation and analysis - observing the snake (teaching) to come to a better understanding of its behavior. "Observing" in the sense of acting, too!

"How do I react?" - and this is from the Kalama Sutta which you alluded to above. Watch, observe, analyse *how* I *react* to the teaching. This is observation and analysis at its best, I feel.

Both of these emphasize the *doing* over the pondering. Thinking things through can be helpful, but more often just results in a rearrangement of the opinions already held.

The best intellectual understaning of rebirth I have arrived at, that is, one that doesn't interfere by making me constantly think about it, is: "Action shapes experience" - then it doesn't matter if that action lies in the present, or back a few moments or many moments.

That said, I have lots of fun dealing with all the rebirth, gods and demons, magic powers and whatnot teachings which abound in Theravada. ;)

Cheers,
Florian

This is an interesting subject, and a source of confusion for many Western practitioners. Most of those who believe in rebirth (lit. "again-being", skr. punarbhava) don't really understand any of traditional teachings concerning the process rebirth, and there's no guarantee that those who don't believe understand what it is they don't believe. So, for most folks, having such beliefs is not the result of careful consideration.

Secondly, the question of body/mind separation, and the question whether one is different or identical from life to life, are both not adequate in strict sense. The first, because the level of mind taking rebirth is not the same level of mind that identifies with the body, that gross mind dying away along with the gross body, and the very subtle mind that undergoes rebirth is only made apparent in dreamless sleep and in formless dhyana during lifetime. These are standard teachings, common to all three vehicles if we ignore secondary details. The second, because the question conflagrates levels of being.

Thirdly, some principles concerning rebirth, however, need to re-evaluated when necessary. For example, the issue of complex newly discovered developmental and evolutionary dynamics - both collective and individual, and their inextricability - and their karmic interpretation, will need to be evaluated in this context.

Fourthly, the issue of rebirth (to be distinguished from reincarnation and metempsychosis) comes up not just as a chief belief in "dharmic religions", but also as a consequence of the indestructibility of the nature of mind, and its relation to separate awareness. So, one may go further and ask if rebirth makes real sense only for those who have awoken to the very subtle mind, when this process (a la bardo) begins to become transparent to itself, which is a legitimate question.

In short, wherever one stands, is it a hindrance in your practice?

Any thoughts?

Author: woman_alone

I dug into my favorite book (Wings to Awakening, Thanissaro Bhikkhu) on this question, and this is what I found...

"It is entirely possible that a person with no firm conviction in the principle of kamma can follow parts of the Buddhist path, including mindfulness and concentration practices, and gain positive results from them...The full practice of the path, however, is a skillful diverting of the flow of the mind from its habitual kammic streams to the stream of Unbinding. As the Buddha said, this practice requires a willingness to 'develop and abandon' to an extreme degree [A.IV.28]. The developing requires a supreme effort aimed at full and conscious mastery of mindfulness, concentration, and discernment to the point of non-fashioning and on to release. A lack of conviction in the principle of kamma would undercut the patience and commitment, the desire, persistence, intent and refined powers of discrimination needed to pursue concentration and discernment to the most heightened levels, beyond what is needed for a general sense of peace or spontaneity. The abandoning involves uprooting the most deeply buried forms of clinging and attachment that keep one bound to the cycle of rebirth...This is why the Buddha insisted repeatedly...that conviction in the fact of his Awakening necessarily involves conviction in the principle of kamma, and that both forms of conviction are needed for the full mastery of the kamma of heightened skillfulness leading to release."
(Thanissaro, 1996:47-48)

I like that book, too - it's an anthology, glued together by very little commentary.

One point the Ven. Thanissaro often makes is that Kamma is not some piece of doctrine we need to believe in to get saved - its observable right here, in the present, in meditation. The experience of the present moment is shaped by the results of past actions, the results of present actions, and the present actions themselves. Thus, in meditation, memories arise (results of past actions), and whether we rush towards them, or not will have an immediate impact on our meditation. If we didn't think our actions matter, why meditate?

Drawing conclusions about the possibility of previous and future lifetimes from this immediate experience is a different matter, of course. A German monk I deeply respect (a student of Ven. Ajahn Maha Boowa) will go on and on about rebirth and the various hells and heavens. He's really convinced of their literal existence. The way he "picked up" this teaching, by the way, was as a motivation to keep going when he almost left his teacher: "Do I really want to get born another time, have to learn to walk, fall down hundreds of times in the process, learn to talk, be frustrated over and over when the grown-ups don't understand me" and so on.

Cheers,
Florian

Thanks, monkeymind. Though I appreciate your input on this, what you point has only a general semblance with the Buddhist notion of karma, especially in Mahayana terms. Sure our actions matter, but we don't need karmic dynamics to explain or accept that. The whole Western ideal of individual responsibility is based on principle that our choices and actions do matter, without any reference to karma whatsoever. Of course it's then difficult to draw "conclusions about the possiblity of previous and future lifetimes" from that. I'm not saying anything about the heavens and hells (not real places in Mahayana anyway) but I'm just stressing how there are many personal versions of "karma" out there. Do we ever stop to question those - privately held - beliefs? Or it's safer to question "Buddhist" beliefs we don't hold anyway? What do you say?

Author: sonamdolma

Justin;
It's funny - I was born believing in reincarnation and became a vegetarian at 6 yrs of age - probably the only one in Canada at that time.. My atheist/Irish/drinking/smoking fighting parents thought the hospital had mixed up the babies.

So I was shocked as an adult at a Tibetan Buddhist retreat in Dharamsala to be told there really was no such thing as reincarnation. Then they explained that it isn't "us" that reincarnates - not "us" as we think of ourselves. We're one-offs. Put simply, they said that what passes from birth to birth is a collection of "karmic energy" - not a soul. We (our physical self) get it prior to birth, change it by how we live and then it moves on when we die. This makes sense if you believe that we are all destined to eventually become enlightened. This could be the mechanism for improvement.

Recently, I've been putting a lot of energy into learning the best techniques for reincarnating from those who claim to have done it consciously many times. So let me say that your feelings of being reborn with each breath and inheriting Karma from previous moments doesn't sound all that different. My feeling is that we're all doomed to find that none of our ideas or concepts or expectations are valid and that this whole thing is a gigantic joke. ..think about what it means if there is no such thing as time!!

I hope we get some more response to this fascinating topic.

Author: Tracy.

I thought I'd chime in with a quote from Meetings with Remarkable Women, by Lenore Friedman. This is a pretty good book, by the way. Lenore Friedman is a laywoman who went around interviewing female Buddhist teachers about their lives. In her interview with Jiyu Kennet, she asks about reincarnation, and the passage struck me as the first explanation of rebirth that actually made some sense to me. Here it is:

We talked for a while about
problems in translating scriptures from the Japanese, and Roshi
Kennett gave the example of older translations using the word
predestination for what she currently translates as "past life
experiences." She said there was "one heck of a difference" and I
asked her to amplify.
"Because of a tiny bit of ignorance centuries ago, a mistake was
made. And that mistake was continued down the past lives. I was not
predestined to make that mistake. All I had to do was train at any
time to clean it up. But I was not predestined to it. There was no God
that predestined me to make the mistake. The mistake had been made
once, and I was free at any time to end it, and that's the big
difference between predestination and past life experiences."
"Okay. I think I get that. Would you say a bit more, though, about
understanding past lives without a sense of continuing ego or self?"
"Well, if you once think that you are in it, then you cause the thing
to eternize. And then what you've got is a bunch of ghosts and you're
into witchcraft and spiritualism."

(Continued in next post..)

Author: Tracy.

"It isn't entirely clear to me how you get rid of that."
"You just know that when they come up, this is not you. In you is all that is left of this person or this animal. But it isn't you. It's just like a shadow that you've been carrying around with you. And once you saw the mistake, you could put it right. And the thing disappears and no longer affects you. Something was done wrong, a grave mistake was made, and it left vibrations around. Imagine you have a bag in which you've brought home some fish. You eat the fish, but you carry the bag around and it still smells of fish. That's an impregnation. We all carry the impregnations of past lives. But they've got nothing to do with us."
"But there's a continuity down the line?"
"We tend to pick up stuff that made the same mistake. And that's how you can make the mistake of predestination."
"So we do each have our own particular series of impregnations."
"But they're not our personal ones."
"In the sense that we're not personal either?"
"No. You see, we're part, if you like, of a great central ego. We all have a spark of the Eternal. Each one of us is therefore here as a bag of karma. Our duty throughout our lives is to cleanse that karma so that part of the Eternal has got rid of that much. We're probably a very, very religious holy being, in other words. And we have a
definite purpose, which is cleaning this stuff up."

-
That's on pages 191-192.
The part that really struck me was, "In you is all that is left of this person or this animal. But it isn't you." She kind of lost me at the end, though, with the "great central ego." What I find fascinating is that there are countries where karma is the default belief, and heaven, hell, and the eternal soul are weird.

Hokai,

I was clumsily describing my own approach to the teaching on karma. You make important points, so let me clarify my understanding:

Starting from the Buddha's definition - "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect." - and from teachings like the opening verses of the Dhammapada, or the teachings on bright karma, dark karma, and neither bright nor dark karma, I arrived at my current understanding, which I summarized in "intentions shape experience". For me it is helpful, because it is simple, and yields all the intricacies when followed through. (Similar to the way the simple concept of "natural selection" will, when followed through, explain the diversity of species).

This understanding of Karma is not something I hold as a belief, in the sense that I have to make my experience fit in with my opinions. We experience the results of intentional actions: not even necessarily our "own" actions, and neither the concept of individual responsibility, nor the concept of moral justice have much to bear on this fact. Responsibility and moral choice come into play only when we want to shape our experience in certain ways.

As to previous and future lifetimes - that can become a batter of belief. I understand "belief" as wishful thinking to make experience conform with expectations and opinions. Over the past year or so another approach to rebirth has become evident to me, again working from my understanding of karma: to see how belief in rebirth (again, not necessarily my own belief) affects my experience. That has been the most useful approach so far.

Any useful understanding of karma and rebirth must necessarily be personal. Otherwise, it is just wishful thinking, "belief" in the sense of making experience fit in with expectations and opinions: dogmatic or otherwise.

Cheers,
Florian

One thing to contemplate with respect to rebirth is that it's right there in the noble eightfold path, in the definition of Right View (for example MN 117, right at the top). It is there along with generosity, karma, and respect for parents, spiritual beings, and wise people. All of these make up Right View. The other definition of Right View, the supramundane one, is "knowledge of the four noble truths". So these "beliefs" and respectful behaviors on one hand, and the four noble truths on the other hand, are congruent in some way, the Buddha claimed.

Cheers,
Florian

Author: SongMt

Thanks everyone for this thread. I find discussion on karma, and rebirth an enjoyable and thought provoking topic.

As this forum stresses practice, i thought i would share one of our insight meditations here. It deals with rebirth indirectly. and has in the past led practitioners to knowing and having insight into their lives without respect to the perception of time.

Keep in mind though, this is more for insight, it may have an effect on insight into rebirth, but the main point is expanding awareness and perception. My teacher taught that if it doesnt lead to much, not to worry or attach to an outcome, and if something does arise, just like any other sensation, to let it be, rise, then fall..........

standard meditation of stabilizing the mind, then examine/analyze an object, we generally choose something close to its state found in nature, piece of wood or something.

As you delve into deeper insight into the object, see it with utter clarity until it is the only perceivable object in the mind.

the next step is the focal point of this. The stick, for example, regresses to its previous state, branch of a tree. see the tree in the stick until you perceive the tree, then the sapling, then the seed.

More than just an excercise in imagination, you want to be able to truly perceive the inherent interconnectedness of the object with its past.

The goal is always insight and enlightenment, and not to take the pursuit of past life remembrance too seriously, but it may be helpful in some cases.

On a personal note, i do attribute this to attaining a semblance of insight into rebirth, it was actually a turning point for me in whether or not i could be accepting of that teaching. So in the end, it helped me in insight with a direct confrontation with something i had trouble wrapping my mind around.

Let me know what you think, this has been a great discussion,
Tony.

Author: Abe_Dunkelheit

Quoted from The Yogins of Ladakh (2007), p. 113f:

One day [in late 1986] James and I visited Tikse Gompa near Leh. (…) [W]e met a young monk with elegant manners and a wispy moustache who surprised us considerably. He turned out to be the incarnation of a very famous figure in Ladhaki history and now the abbot of a Gelugpa monastery in a remote part of the Himalayas to the east of Ladakh. The young Rimpoche became most enthusiastic about our project and requested a private meeting with us at our hotel. Since this meeting was private we give no details identifying the Rimpoche.

Most of his training as a Gelugpa had been of an academic and scholarly nature and

*** HE WANTED TO QUESTION US ABOUT MEDITATION. ***

His monastery was the base for some two hundred monks but its rural location meant that they had little training.

*** AS A REINCARNATING LAMA, ***

Rimpoche was expected to find study easy for he would have known it all in his previous lives.

(…)

It was clearly difficult for a reincarnation who was also an abbot to arrange basic training [in meditation] for himself.

*** He was simply expected to know. ***

This he found unrealistic and embarrassing. Asked whether he had any recollections of his previous incarnation, he replied he had no such memories and that

*** he often doubted whether he really was a reincarnation of a great lama. ***

Once he had spoken with the Dalai Lama about this.

*** His Holiness ***

had said that although he had been told who he himself was when he was very young, he too had no direct memories of his past history and he

*** often had such doubts. ***

However, being placed in the position that he was, he felt that he had come to activate the spirit of his noble predecessors so that he could emanate this for others. This had been a considerable inspiration to the young Rimpoche.

Author: Abe_Dunkelheit

(…)

It seemed clear to me that this intelligent young man had been provoked into asking these questions partly by his training in English and Western ways at school. This new generation of young lamas has a hard task of integration to perform.

* * *

Having no clue about meditation, and doubting their own reincarnation, one wonders how many elite monks are out there who, like ‘His Holiness’, play the transference game ‘for the benefits’ of their followers?!

Author: Tracy.

On the other hand, well-known and seemingly accomplished meditation teachers in the west have admitted to having past-life experiences (See After the Ecstasy, the Laundry, by Jack Kornfield, p. 219). In their case, no one has told them they were reincarnated, and their positions as teachers do not depend on this claim. Therefore, it's likely that these individuals endorse rebirth doctrines because of their own actual experiences and insight. Whether or not anyone who has not had these experiences can trust their validity based on faith in the teacher is a different issue.

It may be that some (or many) reincarnated lamas don't have a clue whether it's real or not, but their testimony does not disprove the phenomenon. I think it's at least possible that the doctrine is true, but of course it's impossible to know for sure unless I experience it for myself.

I think the believe in reincarnation is a result of some meditation experiences. In some strange states of consciousness seems the consciousness able to remember all past lives. This can come along with an omnipotent feeling (Often told in the suttas: you can touch the moon and the sun with your hands). If you live in a country may be 2000 years ago. You will believe in this experience. Today we will interpret this state more as a kind of psychosis.

The believe e. g. in reincarnation may be only one delivered result of this states.

Paticca

Author: Abe_Dunkelheit

Unusual memories by children is often presented as evidence in favor of reincarnation; but there is at least one other possibility - the children may pick up the information telephathically; and so may people who experience memories of past lives in altered states of consciousness.

Recommended Reading: Origins of Psychic Phenomena by Stan Gooch

Altered states of consciousness The memories of past lives

Author: Abe_Dunkelheit

"The enlightened disciple does not think of himself as transmigrating, but only recognizes the incessant operation of mediate causes in accordance with which contingent personalities arise and cease." (quoted from: Hinduism and Buddhism by Ananda Coomaraswamy)

If I understand the philosophical ramifications of ‘interdependent origination’ correctly, one can safely hold that everything is related to everything else, hence, time is irrelevant! That means a contingent personality may be able to pick up ‘memories’ of another contingent personality [= telepathic communication]; this other contingent personality may be alive or already dead or not even born yet! Unfortunately, the information processing is not without problems, because the person picking up the telepathic signal tends to confuse and confound the telepathic signal with his or her own idiosyncratic ideas!

Author: SANTTHOSH

BIRTH,LIFE AND DEATH IT SELF ARE BASED ON THE FALSE IDENTITY. WHEN ONE BECOMES AWARE OF TRUE IDENTITY WHICH ETERNAL .THE PAST,PRESENT AND FUTURE HAS NO MEANING ON THE BASE OF TRUE IDENTITY . THEREFORE THE THE MIND HAS TO BE TRAINED TO VIEW AND JUDGE THE TRUTH ON THE BASE OF TRUE SELF WHICH IS SPIRIT OR ATAMAN. THE INCARNATION IS RELIGIOUS FABLE. THE ONE WHO BELIEVES THE 'I' OR EGO AS SELF AND BIRTH,LIFE AND DEATH AS REAL WILL NOT ABLE TO UNFOLD THE TRUTH OR MYSTERY OF THE MIND WHICH IS PRESENT AS HUMAN EXPERIENCE. TO UNFOLD THE TRUTH FORMLESS SPIRITUALITY ,F.S]IS ONLY THE TOOL.

Author: ven.moneyya

It's really important to have faith in the doctrine of kamma, including kamma result that ripens in future lives. This is described by the Buddha as fundamental Right View. Belief in kamma provides one with the incentive to want to get out of samsara - out of the cycle of rebirth - which is really important for progress on the path. Keep practicing, have faith...

Author: SANTTHOSH

hi,ven
It is not important to have faith in any doctrine. All the doctrine are based on the ego or physical identity. the physical identity . The past present and future are part of the experience of duality. THE BIRTH,LIFE AND DEATH ARE PART AND PARCEL OF THE DUALITY. getting out of samsara means getting out duality. Faith and belief are part of the illusory duality. When Buddhas nature is non duality which is identified as emptiness . The emptiness means empty of experience of duality. the emptiness is the true self. on the standpoint of non dual nature of Buddha the duality is mere mirage. by discovering Buddha's nature one becomes free from experience of duality which he experiences it as reality. Thus birth,life and death are mere mirage on the standpoint of Buddha nature or non duality. Thus when the birth and death itself is illusion the reincarnation is bound to be illusion.
with lots of respect and regards.
santthosh

I think it may have been said here before, but I'll add my take: The problem with non-duality talk (I don't think it rates as dharma) is that it doesn't present any method to get there from here. It's more of a tease than a teaching.

Author: SANTTHOSH

Hi joriki,
thank you for your response.
dual and non dual is state of mind. to discover the state of mind you do not require any doctrine. it is possible to get to non duality if you have intense urge and receptive mind and courage to accept the truth and reject the untruth when you become aware of the reality. please go through my blogs on FORMLESS SPIRITUALITY in guru's feet.com then you will become aware what i am saying.
with respect and regards
santhhosh
have blissful time in duality

I'm quite familiar with what you're saying; to the point of exhaustion. I've read most of what Kenton Whitman has written on his site, along with lots of other reading on other similar sites (the names escape me at the moment). Fwiw, Kenton's article on dependent origination is quite good (he calls it mutually perfect arising, iirc). Not to throw the baby out with the bath, I'll muster more courage while I keep practicing.

peace

Author: SANTTHOSH

hi joriki,
Thank you for you reply. just think the physical body is not the experiencer of the physical body itself. then what is it that functions as as physical body and perceives the world as a person. This you become aware of the invisible entity what Buddha referring as emptiness is actually the non dual spirit.. You have to train your mind to view and judge the worldview on the that invisible eternal entity to overcome the experience of duality. You do not require any doctrine or philosophy or guru if you indulge deeper through inquiry and reasoning on the true base to enter into Buddha's nature or non duality.
do not accept anything as truth until you get contradicted truth. until and unless you have the proper yardstick to know what is truth and what truth is not your doubts and confusion will prevail get rid of all doubts and confusion and barricades from your present spiritual outfit then it is possible for you to liberate the mind from duality to remain its non dual true nature.

Author: SANTTHOSH

THERE IS MISTAKE PLEASE READ IT AS UN-CONTRADICTED TRUTH.
SANTTHOSH

Author: ven.moneyya

Kamma and rebirth go hand in hand and are fundamental doctrines taught by the Buddha. In fact, kamma is the only teaching that satisfactorily explains the gross inequities that we experience in our lives, and why beings are born with different characteristics and different tendencies. It is also the basis for morality, since as we “do unto others,” we also do unto ourselves.

As you develop confidence in this teaching, many things will become clear to you. You will see that we are all interrelated through the vast inextricable web of kamma. This means that at some point in time, we have all been brothers and sisters, and parents and children of one another. Is that not sufficient reason to cultivate good will and eschew cruelty? Such a person will not take the life of even an ant or a mosquito, much less the life of a fellow human being.

Besides, kamma is not something we cannot run away from. You may think, “No one suffers;” however, as soon as you stub your toe, that thought will disappear from your mind.

Until you able to prove for yourself the verity of this teaching, isn’t it best to keep an open mind? According to the Buddha, wrong view about kamma can have dire consequences. Is it worth the risk? By the way, you may be surprised to learn that faith is one of the five spiritual faculties taught by the Buddha, as well as one of the five spiritual powers.
Metta

Author: SANTTHOSH

Hi ven,
The rebirth is based on present birth. Thus you believe the present birth,life and death as reality without verifying what is it that claims itself as ''I', whether it is physical body or something else. If you believes that one which says as 'i' is physical body then whatever you believe and practice is in right direction. If 'I' is not the physical body then whatever you believe and practice is falsehood.Therefore one has to verify what 'i' is ? then only one will be able to know the truth about the birth ,life death and rebirth..
Since birth,life and death and rebirth are based on physical identity or ego. Ego is false identity. the true identity is the invisible non dual substance of the ego or duality.
Therefore it is necessary to verify the validity of one's belief on their own identity. Then only decide and judge about the rebirth.
If you believe in birth and rebirth you will not be able to go beyond the experience of duality. If your are satisfied with kamma do not give it up continue until the core. Only when uncertainty haunts you then only think of something else.
With respect and regards
Santthosh
Keep in touch. All the best in your spiritual pursuit.

Author: ven.moneyya

Dear Santthosh,

In your previous posts, you refer to rebirth as “religious fable” and “illusion,” and state that anyone who believes in rebirth “will not be able to go beyond the experience of duality.”

In the Bhayabherava Sutta the Buddha states: “When my concentrated mind was thus purified…I directed it to…the recollection of past lives…one birth…twenty births…a hundred thousand births.” He describes this as “the first true knowledge gained by me in the first watch of the night.” Later that same night, he examined kamma and then attained perfect enlightenment.

Since Buddhism does not teach blind belief, but rather confidence based on practical experience, let me ask you: if we are all part of the same “non-dual spirit,” why can’t you feel someone else’s pain or pleasure, and vice versa? The answer is kamma. Kamma is the quality of our actions, which ripen accordingly into pain or pleasure, either in this life or a future life. Even a Buddha is not completely free from the results of his past kamma.

In the Dhammapada the Buddha states, “Even as the smith refines silver, so, little by little, gradually, does the wise man fine away his defilements.” We all have to start somewhere, and for most of us that means on the level of kamma, gradually purifying our minds through Right Speech, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, etc. Even after years of training, few have attained the level of realization where their actions are no longer kamma productive.

The good news is that duality is not the problem. If it were, we would be continually walking into doors, calling wrong phone numbers and putting food into the wrong orifices. So what is the problem? Clinging. Clinging is the glue that binds us to existence. Whatever we cling to – even non-duality – is bound to imprison us. Like a blind man clinging to a piece of soiled cloth, if we continue in this manner, how can we ever know true purity?

Regards,
Venerable Moneyya

Author: zacharius

my understanding is that in the suttas the buddha is fairly clear. he states that there is rebirth of character and rebirth of appearance, but no transmigration of soul. that is, people might imitate your behaviors or look like you, but there is no 'self' that moves from one life to the next.

often when he speaks of rebirth he clearly seems to be talking about the rebirth of kamma from one moment to the next, as action leads to new action and so on, not a literal reincarnation.

in any event, holding such beliefs absent any evidence seems to directly contradict other aspects of the dhamma anyway, not to mention being highly useless.

but my teacher sometimes says, if you're going to have delusions, you might as well have delusions that make you happy.

Author: marinr

This "you can touch the moon and the sun with your hands" sound familiar to me. I often have a feeling when observing distant objects that they can activate 'my' sense of touch when I look at them.

Is this happening to anybody else?

As for the rebirth doctrine, it was quite useful for me. It got me asking who this 'I' thing really is.
And it has some poetic "you've been wondering a lot, now you have to wake up". :-)

And yes, hello to all.

Thanks Daniel for a great book!

Author: Wanderer000

I've recently set up a new Buddhist discussion forum (i-sangha.com) especially for those who don't believe in literal reincarnation, since those who reject literal reincarnation can be made to feel extremely unwelcome by the rest of the Buddhist community.

I was recently banned from a certain popular Buddhist forum for explaining that I understood rebirth to be momentary, and multi-branched, and that "birth" in Buddhism was a mental event (the birth of the false "I"), rather than a physical one. The administration of the forum concerned was so offended by my views that my account was immediately terminated!

Justin,

You might want to check out Stephen Batchelor's Buddhism Without Beliefs, if you haven't already.

I also recommend Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree, by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu:
"With ultimate understanding, one knows that, because there is no one born, there is no one who dies and is reborn. Therefore, the whole question of rebirth is quite foolish and has nothing to do with Buddhism at all."

He was a kick-ass monk, in my estimation.


Also a quote from Shinzen Young, from Science of Enlightenment:
"The usual concept of immortality, "my personal existence will go on for ever." That seems extremely anti-natural to me, that anything like that would be, could be. A more mature concept and a more realistic concept, a realizable concept of immortality, is there is a shift in what I call myself. That new thing that I now, to a certain extent, know myself to be and to have always been is not a thing. It's a doing, and it contains two halves: one called life the other called death, expansion and contraction, life and death. This of course is quite a fundamental change in ones perspective."

Author: EnikhanJohorns

If something pains you, sit on it using the practice of Vipassana until it is resolved. . Avoidance of the issue of reincarnation does not help solve the issue usefully to further your practice beyond that hurtle. Living each moment anew is very important, in that you may use what is useful from your own experience to heed the words of the wise and take them into account when deciding upon the value of a teaching. The teaching given to the Kalama people at Kesaputta also applies to the First Council of Nicaea, where the doctrine of the catholic church was not distinguished mentally but agreed upon due to popularity. Was this action of Constantine I and bishops not the cause of the squandering of the doctrine of reincarnation from what became the apostasy known since then as "Christianity"?

Some other words on this matter:

"There is no logical way to prove the validity of rebirth and kamma."
--Bhikkhu Bodhi. "Does Rebirth Make Sense?"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_46.html

"People who practice the Dhamma don't have to give any thought to past or future lives, or to heaven or hell. All they have to do is be firm and intent on practicing correctly in line with the principles of virtue, concentration, and discernment. If there really are 16 levels of heaven as they say in the texts, people who practice well are sure to rise to those levels. Or if heaven and nibbana don't exist, people who practice well don't lack for benefits here and now. They're sure to be happy, as human beings on a high level."

--Luang Pu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/du...iftsheleft.html


"We neither have to adopt the literal versions of rebirth presented by religious tradition nor fall into the extreme of nihilism. Regardless of what we believe, our actions will reverberate beyond our deaths. Irrespective of our personal suvival, the legacy of our thoughts, words, and deeds will continue through the impressions we leave behind in the lives of those we have influenced or touched in any way."
--Stephen Batchelor, Buddhism Without Beliefs.

NY Times Interview with Joshu Sasaki Roshi (~100 years of age at the time of the interview):
Q: "What happens after death?"
A: "We’re not there yet."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/us/09zentext.html

One more:
"I do not say that rebirth is true, nor that it is false. Perhaps there is some way to establish whether we do survive death as distinct entities or not. Or perhaps there is no way to do so. Rebirth or no, what the Buddha is saying makes sense in terms of this life. If there are future lives, it will make sense there too."
--David Brazier, The Feeling Buddha. p.99

I was also raised in the context of protestant mainstream Christianity. I was told that before birth we 'don't exist' and God 'makes us from scratch'. I tried to work with it but failed to experientially locate the soul/spirit thing and the model failed.

Over time I located Theravada teachings which for the most part matched my experience of phenomena both internally (mind and body) and externally (world systems). As the dhamma matched my own observations very accurately and also went beyond my observations in a variety of ways I decided to follow up on these teachings to see what else I could determine about the reality of the situation.

cont. ->

In the years since taking up meditation in a 'hardcore way' (in my case via many, many, many hours of it) I have had a variety of insights into my own cyclic existence. Insight into the past modes of existence tends to arise out of insight into the present existence, often when noting that which is drawn from the present life's inputs in contrast to that which is drawn from past modes of perceptions and behaviors. The past being insights form out of accumulated observations into very deeply ingrained modalities of being, things that tend to define my nature but which have much older origins and have become refashioned over and over through time, in one body and mind combo after the next. Sort of like a hamburger. You get one, then another, both are burgers, not exactly the same, but very similar. Having had a preference for an extra slice of cheese in the past, an extra slice of cheese is selected once again, and so on. Same with the rebirth thing, the kamma gets recycled which expresses in various particular ways, moods, ways of thinking, ways of acting and so on. But it is also clear to me that other than these tendencies, nothing survives from one existence to the next. This body and mind have a definite beginning and end. What survives is tendencies, like tending to be a quiet introvert or tending to be a loud extrovert and so on.

I don't make a point of sharing this kind of stuff as most people would rather debate the subject as if it is simply a contest of belief systems. I don't think that serves anyone. What I did/do was simply accept my ignorance, gave attention to what's arising and continue to apply the skills that develop from insight practice to what is arising. In the longer run it has been possible to discern the difference between things that arise from this life's experience from things that are re-arising because they have arisen before this life, in some cases again and again over many lifetimes.

cont. ->

To come full circle I could describe the function of kamma as sort of 'soul-like' in that it is sort of like sound as it travels through space. Each molecule of air that is vibrated is distinct from the last molecule of air but the way that the air is being vibrated has a continuity because the energy of the vibration is being transferred from one molecule to the next. At this point it does appear as though the agitation of the air that I've likened to my body and mind in this life is being shaped to various extents by habits and ways of being which predate this life in addition to the influences of this present existence.

In my experience these processes are very subtle kinds of things to observe and one has to refuse to allow speculations to arise. It is important to wait for things to become clear on their own. Then they can be examined repeatedly and thoroughly. I recommend putting the effort into the insight work and simply waiting for insight into things like this to arise out of that work. The effect of this for me is that this approach has resulted in a much more useful way of resolving these kinds of questions about origins and outcomes; by taking it out of the realm of theory and, again, into the ongoing work. Together with that accumulative work there can sometimes be an analysis of what can be observed that is cyclic within what is arising within the ongoing present lifetime.

edit - add:

Regardless of the insights into this sort of stuff that arises it is important not to get involved in what I call a narrative fiction of life, a composed story of this one or any other(s). Stay in the present and get more clear on what is everpresent about dharma, that's the path to the deathless unborn awareness in full awakening and complete release as far as I have been able to track it so far.