Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Jason Lissel 10/2/10 2:05 AM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Craig N 10/2/10 2:33 AM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Craig N 10/2/10 2:41 AM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Jason Lissel 10/2/10 4:42 AM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Nad A. 10/2/10 6:02 AM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Craig N 10/2/10 9:11 AM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? tarin greco 10/2/10 11:31 AM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Steph . 10/2/10 1:51 PM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Nad A. 10/2/10 5:45 PM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Bruno Loff 10/3/10 2:02 AM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Nad A. 10/4/10 7:27 AM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Bruno Loff 10/4/10 1:09 PM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Nad A. 10/5/10 5:39 AM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Daniel Johnson 10/6/10 4:56 PM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Gabriel S. 10/6/10 11:31 PM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Daniel Johnson 10/8/10 4:14 PM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Gabriel S. 10/4/10 2:18 PM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Nad A. 10/5/10 5:45 AM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? tarin greco 10/5/10 9:03 AM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Jason Lissel 10/5/10 5:31 PM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Gabriel S. 10/6/10 12:10 PM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Nad A. 10/7/10 5:16 AM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Gabriel S. 10/7/10 2:58 PM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? srid 10/9/10 3:37 PM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Nad A. 10/11/10 3:58 AM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? srid 10/11/10 10:29 AM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Nad A. 10/11/10 12:25 PM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? srid 10/14/10 9:48 PM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Nad A. 10/16/10 8:40 PM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? srid 10/16/10 11:14 PM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Jeff Grove 10/17/10 6:49 AM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Nad A. 10/17/10 7:22 AM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Jeff Grove 10/11/10 5:14 PM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Paul Duplessis 10/11/10 6:13 PM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Jeff Grove 10/11/10 9:36 PM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Jason Lissel 10/7/10 3:59 PM
RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes? Gabriel S. 10/6/10 12:01 AM
Jason Lissel, modified 11 Years ago at 10/2/10 2:05 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/2/10 1:58 AM

Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

Posts: 105 Join Date: 8/11/10 Recent Posts
I haven't been practicing actualism much, mostly because I've never understood how to do it, and have no confidence in what I've been doing. I don't remember a PCE at all, and I find it very difficult to go back to feeling good after pinpointing an event that ended felicity. It hasn't helped to try and see that this is the only moment of being alive because it definitely seems as though there are a lot of moments. So if I'm not happy now, I don't really see the silliness of the thing that caused the unhappiness, but I'll probably feel ok later by going back to being attentive, and shifting my attention to something else.

When I ask myself HAIETMOBA, it's kind of like a reminder. My answer to it is to go back to being attentive.

Am I doing everything correctly for where I am at?
Craig N, modified 11 Years ago at 10/2/10 2:33 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/2/10 2:33 AM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

Posts: 134 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Jason L:
So if I'm not happy now, I don't really see the silliness of the thing that caused the unhappiness, but I'll probably feel ok later by going back to being attentive, and shifting my attention to something else.


Bear in mind that some things that plague you should be acted upon - eg physical health issues are best checked rather than ignored. But if the issue is an emotional/belief based one, you can guarantee that if you can see the silliness, the emotional side of the problem will be resolved. Depending on the issue, a constructive action might be worthwhile anyway. Eg you can accept working in a job for an unappreciative boss for low pay and long hours - that's up to you. But you can also look for a better job. Either way, feeling despondent doesn't fix the situation.

Here's some examples I wrote down the other day.

Suggestion: Journalling can be very effective. Write down the issue that caused the unhappiness, and ask if it's silly or sensible. If you successfully see the thing as silly after that, the issue disappears.

Examples

Issue: Feeling bad rather than feeling good but for no particular reason!
Q: Silly or sensible?
A: Silly!

Issue: Anxious about whether I might be taking too long a lunch break, but not getting back to work, just worrying about it.
Q: Silly or sensible?
A: Silly! (and it turned out I wasn't anyway)

Issue: Wanting to be slimmer without exercise or changing my diet or experiencing hunger
Q: Silly or sensible?
A: Silly!

Suggestion: If it's not sensible but you can't see it as silly, flesh out the issue. Add more clauses, descriptions.

Examples

Issue: Seeing people with things I do not have and feeling jealous
Q: Silly or sensible?
A: Well it just sucks, blah blah reasons why (SOS not working)
Fleshed out issue: Seeing people with things I do not have and feeling jealous, but not having any inclination to put in the work to have such a thing myself
A: Silly!

Issue: Feeling bad because I want to help someone but I'm unable to
Q: Silly or sensible?
A: Ummm I suppose it's silly but that really doesn't help
Fleshed out issue: Feeling bad because I want to help someone but I'm unable to, because I'm only trying through Skype messages and without being willing to do more than talk about it, when they are upset about something I do not have the power to change - and even if I could, probably wouldn't
Q: Silly or sensible?
A: Silly!
Craig N, modified 11 Years ago at 10/2/10 2:41 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/2/10 2:41 AM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

Posts: 134 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Jason L:
I find it very difficult to go back to feeling good after pinpointing an event that ended felicity. It hasn't helped to try and see that this is the only moment of being alive because it definitely seems as though there are a lot of moments.


The silly or sensible question is the go. Seeing that this moment is the only moment to be alive is the reason why you should apply the silly or sensible question right now, rather than just put up with being upset right now. There may be a lot of moments, but perhaps you're referring to memories of moments past? There's only one present moment - this one.

There's a very useful distinction to be made between memories (reliving memories, revelling in memories, stuck in the past (memories), beating oneself up now because of experiencing ones memories) and this present moment where sensations occur prior to being stored as memories.

If you cannot make that distinction, the present can become a torture chamber when the past is relived.

If you can make that distinction, you can see that you're actually experiencing your memories (of the past) now - in this moment. Then it just becomes a matter of realising that its occurring (oops!) and choosing to do something about it.

Craig
Jason Lissel, modified 11 Years ago at 10/2/10 4:42 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/2/10 4:40 AM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

Posts: 105 Join Date: 8/11/10 Recent Posts
I guess that if I had confidence in silly or sensible it would make it easier to have a PCE.

I just wrote out a scenario that I haven't been able to resolve, but decided against posting it for now. There are a number of things I haven't been able to see the silly side of. I don't really see how I can get very far since I'm not very insightful... Can the average intellect actually be insightful enough to do this?
Nad A, modified 11 Years ago at 10/2/10 6:02 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/2/10 6:02 AM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Thanks for posting examples of the silly/sensible process, Craig. I too have found that to be the crucial part of getting to felicity.

Craig N:
The silly or sensible question is the go. Seeing that this moment is the only moment to be alive is the reason why you should apply the silly or sensible question right now, rather than just put up with being upset right now. There may be a lot of moments, but perhaps you're referring to memories of moments past? There's only one present moment - this one.


I've spent years trying to understand the 'only moment of being alive' thing.

It still reads and feels like a tautology / truism to say that this current moment is the only moment which currently exists. It doesn't have that motivational element for me. After all, as much as I can see that there is currently only this moment - that there is no other simultaneously existing moment - I can equally see that there probably will be future moments.

Nad
Craig N, modified 11 Years ago at 10/2/10 9:11 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/2/10 9:11 AM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

Posts: 134 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Nad A.:
I've spent years trying to understand the 'only moment of being alive' thing.

It still reads and feels like a tautology / truism to say that this current moment is the only moment which currently exists. It doesn't have that motivational element for me. After all, as much as I can see that there is currently only this moment - that there is no other simultaneously existing moment - I can equally see that there probably will be future moments.

Nad


Hi Nad

It's not so much that it's the only moment that currently exists, or that some people posit simultaneously existing moments - I've never looked at it that way, and more importantly I've never suffered as a result of those possibilities.

On the other hand, I have suffered from anxiety related to the future - what ifs, and from sorrow or frustration related to the past - if onlys. I have felt trapped by my past, I have carried the past with me, I have regretted the past for long periods of present time, I have relived the past looking for some new scrap of information to profit from, I have wished I could change things in the past.

If you are experiencing unhappiness now, due to an event in the past, or due to fear of the future, now is the only time you have to do something about it, and now is the only time it can change.

Those very common causes of suffering are good reasons to pay attention to the fact that now is the only moment of being alive.

Helpful?

Craig
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tarin greco, modified 11 Years ago at 10/2/10 11:31 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/2/10 11:31 AM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
Jason L:
It hasn't helped to try and see that this is the only moment of being alive because it definitely seems as though there are a lot of moments.


Nad A.:

I've spent years trying to understand the 'only moment of being alive' thing.

It still reads and feels like a tautology / truism to say that this current moment is the only moment which currently exists. It doesn't have that motivational element for me. After all, as much as I can see that there is currently only this moment - that there is no other simultaneously existing moment - I can equally see that there probably will be future moments.


hi jason and nad,

perhaps if you were to think of it this way:

'this is the only moment that i am able to enjoy being alive right now. there will (likely) be such moments again in future, but when those moments occur, i will also experience them as happening right now. in the realm of experience, it can only ever be right now.'

hence, that this 'right now'-ness is the operative quality in experiencing this moment of being alive is the crucial thing to grasp. the-moment-which-is-happening-right-now is the only dynamic one.. it is the only one that you experience as being alive. this is the only moment you can actually enjoy. this moment is the only one that is here right now... and by the way, have you ever noticed that it is always right now?

if you wish to understand how the haietmoba works, you have to turn your mind toward this salient fact.

tarin
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Steph , modified 11 Years ago at 10/2/10 1:51 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/2/10 1:49 PM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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tarin greco:

and by the way, have you ever noticed that it is always right now?

if you wish to understand how the haietmoba works, you have to turn your mind toward this salient fact.

tarin


I'll echo this. It's crucial to directly experience that it is always right now. What is happening right now? Right now is happening. And right now? Still right now. The amazement that comes with realizing this simple fact has been enough to induce and carry on PCE's at length for me. Just sit there and think about this for a while: If it is always right now, then right now is infinite. Yes, it's pretty mind boggling at first, but go with it because fascination will help you immensely. Also helpful is pondering this: Isn't it fascinating that there is life at all and that we're all here? I'm a body, just sitting here, experiencing life and it's awesome. It's kind of like... wait, is this being really alive? Yep, it is. emoticon

Steph
Nad A, modified 11 Years ago at 10/2/10 5:45 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/2/10 5:45 PM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Craig, I think that's a separate point / alternative way of interpreting the phrase. I was referring to the motivational sense of this being the 'only moment of being alive' - the use of the term in assessing whether to waste what is one's 'only moment of being alive'.

tarin greco:
and by the way, have you ever noticed that it is always right now?


I do not understand the significance of this at all. It would seem to me that realising that (to a human experiencing the world) it is always right now is as amazing as realising that your nose is always in front of you. My reaction is: of course it is always the present when a human is experiencing and noticing something. What's so fascinating there?

Is there a way of rephrasing it which could help me see this to be a surprising fact?

Nad
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Bruno Loff, modified 11 Years ago at 10/3/10 2:02 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/3/10 2:02 AM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Nad, maybe this will be a bit clearer if you think of "seeing that it is right now" in opposition to "not being able to see it." For instance, recall what happens when you are having an obsessive recurring thought for a while. Then it is as if you were embedded into it, and can not really realize, while having the thought, that it is happening "right now". The same can happen with worrying about the past and the future, worrying about personal issues, etc.

Do you know what I am pointing to? It seems, during these moments, that we somehow loose touch that they are happening right now.

For instance, I was just writing this post, and I wasn't really aware that I was doing it right now, but as I come to think of it, and write this last paragraph, I become aware of it, and there is a qualitative difference in the way it happens (it's quite cool actually!). I'm still writing the paragraph, using my fingers, etc, but I am not "lost" or "embedded" into it. I am aware of writing the paragraph, of thinking how to phrase it, and how it is happening now, rather than just doing it mindlessly.
Nad A, modified 11 Years ago at 10/4/10 7:27 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/4/10 7:15 AM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Bruno, if I understand you correctly, you're talking about how we can often get so caught up in thoughts and feelings about past/future things that we are effectively failing to live right now and failing to notice that these thoughts and feelings are happening right now.

As I write this, I'm not caught up in past/future thoughts or feelings but there's nothing amazing or interesting about the fact that it will always be 'right now' to me.

Of course it will always be 'right now' to a human just like this nose will always be 'in front' or this body will always be 'right here'. yet, just as 'right here' has no informative meaning when used like that, isn't 'right now' just the same?
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Bruno Loff, modified 11 Years ago at 10/4/10 1:09 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/4/10 1:09 PM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Hmm, one reason I find it fascinating is because since it is always right now, even when I am not seeing it, I am perplexed at what happens that makes me not be able to simply see it all the time? Where does the not seeing start? How does this not seeing work?

Another reason, I find that when I am maintaining presence (which is a requirement for seeing that it is "right now"), then I am more aware of what is happening and I can enjoy experience more fully. Don't you? So it isn't so much that "being always right now is a big deal," but when I am aware it is right now, whatever is happening right now becomes a big deal :-)

And this is in no small part due to the incredibly increased purity of sensory perception that has happened due to meditation. So if you still don't see this, it might be because your senses are still not clear enough. If you take LSD, or do a 10-day meditation retreat, then you will get a taste of what I mean.
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Gabriel S, modified 11 Years ago at 10/4/10 2:18 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/4/10 2:18 PM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Nad A.:
tarin greco:
and by the way, have you ever noticed that it is always right now?


I do not understand the significance of this at all. It would seem to me that realising that (to a human experiencing the world) it is always right now is as amazing as realising that your nose is always in front of you.



Wow, that *is* pretty amazing Nad... I apologise for jumping in here like this (and, also, for chasin' you around from forum to forum :bashfulemoticon I just had to share *how* this downright earthy observation of yours (albeit posited as a seemingly stale statement) actually *caused* your fellow to experience *fascination* (and no, I am not under the influence of any extraneous substance) so as to further assure you that your intellect-prone/rationally-inclined mind is capable of a much more significant understanding (even if, at present, it doesn't seem that way).

The following from Trent's post, Between Chaos and Order lies Wonder, might help nudge you in the (b)right direction:

Trent:
The epitome of wonder is experienced when ‘I’ realize that I am unknown; that ‘I’ do not have the answers. ’I’ do not know this, the actual world... (…)



(snipped approx. 214 splendidly written words (to make a point)… and below, hope Trent doesn’t mind, I swapped these five letters ‘stone’ for the following four ‘nose’)

Trent:
The universe, without the aid of the human intellect, is materially the same as it is with the aid of the human intellect, but it is simply not known to be that way, or any way for that matter. A [nose] may be a [nose], but without the intellect, there is no ability to identify or define the patterns indicative of “a [nose].” Without the pattern recognizing and categorizing functions of the intellect, there is simply chaos (…)



(snipped another approx. 116 wonderfully thought-up words, and a comma, just to further the point that I am currently still making… replaced ‘rock’ with ‘nose’)

Trent:
It is the meeting of this virginal chaos (a [nose] yet to be defined or recognized)—the world directly experienced via the unfiltered senses—with the ordering capacity of the intellect (a capacity only found to this degree in humans) which enables the linguistic articulation of the order of the universe which always already existed (the [nose] as such, now also defined and recognized as such). The apperceptive, (direct, unfiltered, seamless) simultaneous experience of this complimentary interaction between chaotic sense-datum and the ordering functions of the intellect engenders the never ending experience of delightful patterns of sensations which have been named: wonder. Wonder, it seems, is the default state of the unrestrained intellect (…)



(more snips, no swaps, I highly recommend that you carefully and (¡very important!) naively consider the following)

Trent:
It is as though one is perpetually questioning all things sensed and experienced and also answering all of those questions in some sort of elegant (and mostly subconscious) ‘dance duet’. It is as though one’s mind is always on the “edge of its seat.” And this scintillating, peerless, wonderful awareness is just part of what it means to be fully alive!

(…)

It is as a result of this wonder-full awareness that one may find one’s day to day dealings increasingly dominated by question, rather than by statement.

(…)

This brings me to my final point, one which has only been implied until now: if one is not experiencing wonder, one must figure out why that is the case. Because wonder is an inherent, unceasing quality of the unclouded intellect, one can be sure that the identity is muddying one’s sagacity if it is not consistently present to one's experience of being alive. In other words, if one is not consistently experiencing wonder, one can be sure that there is work left to be done; and this is-- in and of itself-- a vital clue.



How about it...? Anything 'clicked'?

Regards,
Gabriel
Nad A, modified 11 Years ago at 10/5/10 5:39 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/5/10 5:39 AM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Bruno Loff:
Hmm, one reason I find it fascinating is because since it is always right now, even when I am not seeing it, I am perplexed at what happens that makes me not be able to simply see it all the time?

My answer would be that thoughts wander onto other matters. Just like I don't stay constantly aware that my nose is in front of me, but it is nevertheless totally obvious and not particularly interesting information.

Another reason, I find that when I am maintaining presence (which is a requirement for seeing that it is "right now"), then I am more aware of what is happening and I can enjoy experience more fully. Don't you? So it isn't so much that "being always right now is a big deal," but when I am aware it is right now, whatever is happening right now becomes a big deal :-)

I totally understand the benefits of living in the (non-spiritual) now. But I don't see how what seems to be a tautology ("it is now") is a particularly fascinating fact - relative to other facts... or why that fact particularly inspires one to address present suffering any more than "Oh, I am not feeling felicitous here and now" would inspire action. Yet apparently it is crucial to understand it and have the fact that this is one's 'only moment of being alive' as a motivating factor. I've never understood that.

I've had one tiny PCE and several EE's and it never crossed my mind that 'it is always now' is a fact of any importance. It has crossed my mind in some EE's that time may not be moving - might that have something to do with it?
Nad A, modified 11 Years ago at 10/5/10 5:45 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/5/10 5:45 AM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Gabriel, please jump in as often as you can. I appreciate all the help I can get with this.

What Trent is talking about there is wonder which can apply to all things equally. In that case, what I'm wondering is what is relatively more fascinating about the fact that it is always now? Tarin didn't ask if it had been noticed that grass is green. He mentioned a particular fact so there must be something specific to the fact that 'it is always now' that has particular wondrousness. I do not understand what that is.
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tarin greco, modified 11 Years ago at 10/5/10 9:03 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/5/10 9:03 AM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Nad A.:
Gabriel, please jump in as often as you can. I appreciate all the help I can get with this.

What Trent is talking about there is wonder which can apply to all things equally. In that case, what I'm wondering is what is relatively more fascinating about the fact that it is always now? Tarin didn't ask if it had been noticed that grass is green. He mentioned a particular fact so there must be something specific to the fact that 'it is always now' that has particular wondrousness. I do not understand what that is.


realising that it is now right now (which is tantamount to realising that it is now always now) directs your mind toward that mode of perception that enables the verdancy of grass to be wondrously striking.. scintillating to the eyes.

the next time you're struck by the wondrousness of anything, apprehend your state of mind at the time. the immediacy of the experience (of wonder) may become apparent. if so, it may then become apparent that when 'you' give this immediacy the reigns, the wonder becomes living experience.

tarin
Jason Lissel, modified 11 Years ago at 10/5/10 5:31 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/5/10 5:31 PM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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I think I understand what I have to do to have my first PCE. This is happening right now.......... And this is happening right now......... And this is happening right now.
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Gabriel S, modified 11 Years ago at 10/6/10 12:01 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/6/10 12:01 AM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Nad A.:
Gabriel, please jump in as often as you can. I appreciate all the help I can get with this.


That’s nice to know, Nad (and I may fail to actually help you, but it’s still fun (and beneficial) for ‘me’, as I am obsessed with this topic; however, I really, really, want to see you succeed).

Nad A.:
What Trent is talking about there is wonder which can apply to all things equally. In that case, what I'm wondering is what is relatively more fascinating about the fact that it is always now? Tarin didn't ask if it had been noticed that grass is green. He mentioned a particular fact so there must be something specific to the fact that 'it is always now' that has particular wondrousness. I do not understand what that is.


For me, ‘what is relatively more fascinating about the fact that it is always now’, that ‘something specific to the fact that 'it is always now' that has particular wondrousness’, is the security and safety (and, of course, the wonder) that is engendered or, at least, remembered, when no other memory holds sway over 'me' because of the experience or, at least, the contemplative appreciation of this (utterly still, unmoving, but not static) moment in time… and I don’t need to remind you about the power that ‘just a memory’ can have over ‘me’ (but I will), as on Jul 8, 2007 (and please let me know if you mind my crossposting), you wrote the following to Srini [Message #68 / yahoo]:

Nad A.:
Embarrassment, for example, is very 'painful' to me and feels like it really 'hurts'. Like a reflex action, just a memory of an embarrassment makes me mimic shooting myself in the head or thinking that I wish I could smash my head into the wall.


So, if a negative feeling/memory can work ‘Like a reflex action’ (and have you noticed that negative feelings/memories only serve a purpose relative to past/future events)… why not make a felicitous feeling/memory have the same effect *now* – the only moment in time it can actually have an effect on – which would instead ‘[direct] your mind toward that mode of perception that enables the verdancy of grass to be wondrously striking.. scintillating to the eyes’, as Tarin pointed out?

I get the impression that (to a degree) you feel (intellectually, I’m sure you know this not to be the case) that experiencing this (only) moment in time is something akin to ‘me’ experiencing the past and/or the future, however, without all of ‘my’ fancy and elaborate distractions (that is, ‘my’ dreams and schemes)… in other words, a somewhat bland and boring experience of whatever is in front of ‘me’ now, including ‘my’ nose, experienced by a somewhat bland and boring ‘me’… but what if ‘I’ weren’t bland and boring? What would happen to the bland and boring 'now', then? What would 'you' mimic with the memory of perfection (the perfect memory)?

Again, for me, nothing short of naivety did the trick, which finally made it click, to end the nick of the tick shtick dilemma; today, the past, present and future function more like inches or meters do, they serve a practical purpose, not a defining one (although I've met a few people who still manage to define themselves by the latter emoticon )

Having nothing else to say on the subject... I truly hope all your endeavors bear fruits of success soon.

You surely deserve it.

Regards,
Gabriel
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Gabriel S, modified 11 Years ago at 10/6/10 12:10 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/6/10 12:10 PM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Jason L:
I think I understand what I have to do to have my first PCE. This is happening right now.......... And this is happening right now......... And this is happening right now.


It looks like you're well on your way, as Richard puts it -

'This moment in eternal time is the arena, so to speak, where all things happen ... and apperception makes this apparent.'

Regards,
Gabriel
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Daniel Johnson, modified 11 Years ago at 10/6/10 4:56 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/6/10 4:56 PM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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I find it fascinating that this moment of being alive actually exists. I find it sorta mind-blowing, actually. It doesn't not exist! Wow!

my 2 cents emoticon
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Gabriel S, modified 11 Years ago at 10/6/10 11:31 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/6/10 11:31 PM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Daniel Johnson:
I find it fascinating that this moment of being alive actually exists. I find it sorta mind-blowing, actually. It doesn't not exist! Wow!

my 2 cents emoticon


You’re a natural Daniel emoticon … simple straightforward remarks like these evidently have the most impact on ‘me’; and it’s hard to ignore the childlike thinking that catapulted others into the actual world:

Stefanie:
What is it here that is causing this anxiety, here in this perfect world?


Tarin:
(...) the final choice that 'i' made was between self- immolation... and self-immolation (both what i wanted and what i didn't want were revealed to be the same thing)


Justine:
ACTUAL HAS NO VIBES


Christian:
oh look im here in this room with my Computer and this Chair


Vineeto:
We’ve got all the time in the world.


Trent:
(...) that "person" [Enlightened Trent] decided that this body and the world would be better off without him


Peter:
All of a sudden, Richard’s phrase “the actual world of people, things and events” came to mind and I found myself acknowledging that the things on the table existed in actuality (...)


And, of course:

Richard:
... in the late afternoon of the day before Friday the thirtieth of October 1992, whilst out in an abandoned cow-paddock planting tree seedlings, I was struck by the curious fact that at the beginning of my life I had been engaged in chopping down trees to turn the land into cow-pasture. Now the needs of the situation were sharply reversed and so I paused in my task and stood erect, looking about me in this little sub-tropical valley that the ex-dairy farm was nestled in. As I looked I idly mused upon the irony that the change in human needs regarding physical survival had wrought such radical transformation in the attitudes toward the environment during the forty five years I had been upon this planet. In a flash of a moment a vast understanding of the enormity of the Human Condition transfigured my comfortable comprehension of what it was to be an Enlightened Master ... a Self-Realised Being. My entire affective and cognitive configuration – my highly prized state of awareness – was seen at a glance to be nothing more than a passionate mental construct. In other words, my world fell apart.


By the way, I’ve really enjoyed your pictures!

Regards,
Gabriel

P.S. Fascination is the key… and here’s some fodder for the next step, reflective contemplation:

RICHARD: Time as measured on this planet – localised time – is chronological. Day becomes night which becomes day ... and spring becomes summer and so on. Hop into a rocket and move to what is popularly called ‘outer space’ or ‘deep space’ and leave your clocks behind ... you may then come closer to understanding eternity as meaning ‘all time’ (to actually understand you will have to leave your self behind with the clocks). http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/selectedcorrespondence/sc-time.htm

And –

RICHARD: This intellectual knowing provided the basis for experiments in experiential knowing: in my formal study of art at college in my twenties and with the daily practise of art thereafter as a living I experientially became aware of the human tendency toward ... um ... ‘frontal-ness’ (the face, the eyes, the nostrils, the mouth, faces forwards) which defines the typical human viewpoint and determines the classic world-view (forward/backward; up/down; left/right; in/out; top/bottom; front/back). By physically lying on one’s back one is no longer looking ‘up’ into space but ‘out’ into space ... all the while intellectually knowing that people on the opposite point on the globe are looking ‘down’ into space whilst standing and ‘out’ into space whilst laying. Thus ‘out’ into space becomes as nonsensical as ‘up’ or ‘down’ ... and this disorientating of the habitual mindset can be extended to other physical experiments: paying attention – exclusive attention – to this moment in time and this place in space as this form. This experiential attention becomes fascination ... and fascination leads to reflective contemplation. Then – and only then – apperception can occur. http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/selectedcorrespondence/sc-time2.htm
Nad A, modified 11 Years ago at 10/7/10 5:16 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/7/10 5:09 AM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

Posts: 237 Join Date: 8/26/10 Recent Posts
Hmm. I may have taken a wrong turn after reading Richard saying this:

For an identity asking how they are experiencing this moment of being alive the words ‘this moment’ refer to each and every fleeting instant between their previous (fleeting) moments and their future (fleeting) moments ... what can be called ‘real world’ time (the world of the psyche) for convenience.
For an identity time moves (as in ‘the moving finger writes; and, having writ, moves on’ for instance).


http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/listdcorrespondence/listd05a.htm#24Nov09

That passage suggested to me that Richard's instructions are deliberately written for identities with 'real world' time in mind. It suggested that a question like "have you ever noticed that it is always now" was using the 'real world' meaning of 'now' and 'this moment'. It also gave me the impression that I should be practising actualism with my 'real world' time so as to avoid dissociation and pretense. Seeing time as it actually is would be for EE's and PCE's only.

So in this thread, my interpretation of the fact that 'it is always now' has been something like this: there are many moments. whichever of the many moments it is, humans will subjectively experience and refer to it as 'now'. Still there is nothing particularly fascinating about that.

That is very different from the interpretation of 'it is always now' that goes like this: it will be this very 'now' - that i'm currently experiencing - forever. there will be no additional moments afterwards.

I've always found it fascinating - since noticing - that in my conscious experience there is no evidence of time moving. So are these two questions pointing to the same thing: Have you ever noticed that it is always now? Have you ever noticed that time isn't moving?
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Gabriel S, modified 11 Years ago at 10/7/10 2:58 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/7/10 2:58 PM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Nad A.:
Hmm. I may have taken a wrong turn after reading Richard saying this:

For an identity asking how they are experiencing this moment of being alive the words ‘this moment’ refer to each and every fleeting instant between their previous (fleeting) moments and their future (fleeting) moments ... what can be called ‘real world’ time (the world of the psyche) for convenience.
For an identity time moves (as in ‘the moving finger writes; and, having writ, moves on’ for instance).


You may have indeed.

Nad A.:
That passage suggested to me that Richard's instructions are deliberately written for identities with 'real world' time in mind.


And what does the following passage suggest to you (now?):

Richard:
One is not on one’s own in this matter. You do not have to do it all by yourself. You have the best help you can get: all the help in the universe.


If nothing in particular, then how do you see this ‘help’ that Richard talks about ever reaching you? Where, specifically, would it come from? What is it comprised of?

Consider the following:

Richard:
What are you saving yourself for? Reach out. Extend yourself. All one gets by waiting is yet more waiting.


Whereas you say:

Nad A.:
It suggested that a question like "have you ever noticed that it is always now" was using the 'real world' meaning of 'now' and 'this moment'.


So do you now see what Richard is actually suggesting? Is there any ‘Reach[ing] out’ in the above (from the 'real world' to...)?

Nad A.:
It also gave me the impression that I should be practising actualism with my 'real world' time so as to avoid dissociation and pretense.


Ah, but a simple and sincere practise of actualism already does away with the ‘dissociation and pretense’ (and I know, ‘I’ve done plenty of the other myself ;-); I am suddenly reminded of a discussion between you and Jack:

Jack to Nad A.:
You're not afraid of being uncertain or even wrong, but you're very afraid of being certain-and-wrong (…)


Nad A.:
Seeing time as it actually is would be for EE's and PCE's only.


In the meantime, you can rely on the conviction born of memory – from any outstanding point of reference concerning the actual – until the (for some reason) latent guiding light of pure intent/fascination is re-activated.

If no such conviction exists, as of yet, then you can rely on curiosity, determination and exploration vitalized from suspicions like:

Nad A. to Bruno:
It has crossed my mind in some EE's that time may not be moving - might that have something to do with it?


And –

Nad A.:
I've always found it fascinating - since noticing - that in my conscious experience there is no evidence of time moving.


*

Nad A.:
So are these two questions pointing to the same thing: Have you ever noticed that it is always now? Have you ever noticed that time isn't moving?


Yes!!! Great, you are actually doing it!

It seems your ‘wrong turn’ was keeping you from further cultivating (and extending) that which you find fascinating (and fascination itself).

It appears you are on the right track again… try to remain (t)here.

If you don’t, no biggie, just -

a) feel silly (not stupid)
b) realign (do not punish)
c) pat yourself on the back (and continue enjoying your success)

Regards,
Gabriel
Jason Lissel, modified 11 Years ago at 10/7/10 3:59 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/7/10 3:59 PM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Nad A.:

So in this thread, my interpretation of the fact that 'it is always now' has been something like this: there are many moments. whichever of the many moments it is, humans will subjectively experience and refer to it as 'now'. Still there is nothing particularly fascinating about that.


For me, I've been putting my attention on the fact 'this is happening right now...... And this is happening right now', etc, and if the conditions have been close enough to ideal, some fascination has arisen, leading to excellence experiences. But fascination has never arisen when I've first put attention on the fact 'this is happening right now'. So at this stage it seems I have to do a bit of a meditative practice to get fascinated with this moment. Although I guess if conditions were ideal, fascination would arise a lot more quickly, e.g. out in nature.
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Daniel Johnson, modified 11 Years ago at 10/8/10 4:14 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/8/10 4:14 PM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/16/09 Recent Posts
Gabriel S.:


Stefanie:
What is it here that is causing this anxiety, here in this perfect world?


I love this one. And, it works with any emotion.

For example:

What is missing here that is causing this desire/lust/craving, here in this perfect world?

What is here that is causing this anger, here in this perfect world?

What is here that is causing this boredom, here in this perfect world?

(uh... unless the world isn't perfect, right Luciano ;) )
srid, modified 11 Years ago at 10/9/10 3:37 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/9/10 3:37 PM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Gabriel S.:
If no such conviction exists, as of yet, then you can rely on curiosity, determination and exploration vitalized from suspicions like:

Nad A. to Bruno:
It has crossed my mind in some EE's that time may not be moving - might that have something to do with it?


And –

Nad A.:
I've always found it fascinating - since noticing - that in my conscious experience there is no evidence of time moving.


*

Nad A.:
So are these two questions pointing to the same thing: Have you ever noticed that it is always now? Have you ever noticed that time isn't moving?



When paying exclusive attention to the ongoing sensory experience - I find it obvious that time is not composed of a series of "moments" arising one after the another. To me, a vital clue lies in the continuity of the sensory experience. Try paying attention to the visual field -- is it not continuous, without a break? Same goes for other sensory perceptions. Therefore, it can be said that it is always now. As it is always now, time can be said to be eternal (as Richard says, this moment - as perceived now - is just hanging in eternal time ... just like this planet hanging in infinite space) ... which makes non-sense of the statement that "time moves". If time "moves," what is "outside" of it?

All that said, without having had a PCE/EE - I still fail to see how contemplating this can lead to fascination.
Nad A, modified 11 Years ago at 10/11/10 3:58 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/11/10 3:58 AM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Sridhar R:
When paying exclusive attention to the ongoing sensory experience - I find it obvious that time is not composed of a series of "moments" arising one after the another. To me, a vital clue lies in the continuity of the sensory experience. Try paying attention to the visual field -- is it not continuous, without a break? Same goes for other sensory perceptions. Therefore, it can be said that it is always now. As it is always now, time can be said to be eternal (as Richard says, this moment - as perceived now - is just hanging in eternal time ... just like this planet hanging in infinite space) ... which makes non-sense of the statement that "time moves". If time "moves," what is "outside" of it?

All that said, without having had a PCE/EE - I still fail to see how contemplating this can lead to fascination.


I now understand why it is of interest that 'it is always now' (assuming that what is meant is that time is not moving). It counters the default feeling of time passing so it is fascinating that things are not how I feel them to be. Opens up a greater possibility of naivete and wonder.

That said, I would only say that there is "no evidence of time moving in our experience" and that "it is always now for a human". I am still cautious about extrapolating from my first-person experience to make absolute/objective statements about the universe. I don't know if that will get in my way.
srid, modified 11 Years ago at 10/11/10 10:29 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/11/10 10:29 AM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Nad A.:
Sridhar R:
[...] All that said, without having had a PCE/EE - I still fail to see how contemplating [time] can lead to fascination.

I now understand why it is of interest that 'it is always now' (assuming that what is meant is that time is not moving). It counters the default feeling of time passing so it is fascinating that things are not how I feel them to be. Opens up a greater possibility of naivete and wonder.


Could you, or anyone else, please explain what you mean by "the default feeling of time passing", in everyday ordinary terms? I ask so as to access the fascinating aspect of this.

A few times I noted that things are not how I feel them to be in the current moment, because my moods change day after day -- but, I don't know where to fit the feeling of time in this.
Nad A, modified 11 Years ago at 10/11/10 12:25 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/11/10 12:25 PM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Sridhar R:
Could you, or anyone else, please explain what you mean by "the default feeling of time passing", in everyday ordinary terms?


I'll give it a go but it's hard. I doubt there is an independent 'feeling of time'. I suspect that there are various feelings and thoughts which together contribute to the sense that time flows or passes and also create the sense that there are a series of moments.

Something's moving, passing, running-out, elapsing. I sometimes feel it as a force of moral imperative when a task or chore or appointment needs to be acted upon. There's a rush and it's the opposite of phrases like 'I have all the time in the universe'.

So does time just naturally feel like a still dimension for you? Is it not heading anywhere?
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Jeff Grove, modified 11 Years ago at 10/11/10 5:14 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/11/10 5:14 PM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Sridhar R:


Could you, or anyone else, please explain what you mean by "the default feeling of time passing",


Investigate the "How"

The feeling of time is the self in action and is most noticeable when you have been in PCE (self is in abyeance) and come out of PCE as the feeling of time is the "self" or self experience.
Paul Duplessis, modified 11 Years ago at 10/11/10 6:13 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/11/10 6:00 PM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Jeff Grove:

The feeling of time is the self in action and is most noticeable when you have been in PCE (self is in abyeance) and come out of PCE as the feeling of time is the "self" or self experience.


Hmmm. 'I' am the apparent movement of time, the apparent movement of time is 'me'. It's a strange way to think of myself but it makes a kind of sense.

Paul
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Jeff Grove, modified 11 Years ago at 10/11/10 9:36 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/11/10 9:29 PM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Paul Duplessis:
Hmmm. 'I' am the apparent movement of time, the apparent movement of time is 'me'. It's a strange way to think of myself but it makes a kind of sense.

Paul


The movement of time is a self experience. When the self is in abeyance there is only this moment perceived

You need to investigate the source of all this the action or movement (instinctual response) resulting the stir of passions, the interior life which is noticeably absent in PCE
srid, modified 11 Years ago at 10/14/10 9:48 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/14/10 9:48 PM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Nad A.:
Sridhar R:
Could you, or anyone else, please explain what you mean by "the default feeling of time passing", in everyday ordinary terms?


I'll give it a go but it's hard. I doubt there is an independent 'feeling of time'. I suspect that there are various feelings and thoughts which together contribute to the sense that time flows or passes and also create the sense that there are a series of moments.

Something's moving, passing, running-out, elapsing. I sometimes feel it as a force of moral imperative when a task or chore or appointment needs to be acted upon. There's a rush and it's the opposite of phrases like 'I have all the time in the universe'.

Ok, I can relate to this. However, the "force of moral imperative when a task or chore or appointment needs to be acted upon" happens only during certain times (as opposed to happening all the time), no? To give just one example, when you feel that familiar feeling of bliss of (affectively) longing for that potential (long-term) mate leading to fantasizing a sequence of events leading to repeated experiencing of that bliss - where is "the default feeling of time passing" in that? Put differently, I am wondering how investigating time can lead to fascination and/or realizations into the above mentioned feeling example (so as to no longer yield to that blissful compulsion).

Nad A.:
So does time just naturally feel like a still dimension for you? Is it not heading anywhere?

Only when paying exclusive attention to the ongoing sensory experience.
Nad A, modified 11 Years ago at 10/16/10 8:40 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/16/10 8:37 PM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Sridhar R:
Ok, I can relate to this. However, the "force of moral imperative when a task or chore or appointment needs to be acted upon" happens only during certain times (as opposed to happening all the time), no?


Yes, the sense of moving-time is only clearly a moral force for me when there is an appointment/chore/task coming up. But I think there is always some sense or feeling that time is moving. If you stopped me at any point in the average day and asked whether I felt time was moving, I would say yes. It's only when deliberately paying careful attention to the continuous sensory experience that I can notice the counter-intuitive fact that there's no evidence of any moving-time.

To give just one example, when you feel that familiar feeling of bliss of (affectively) longing for that potential (long-term) mate leading to fantasizing a sequence of events leading to repeated experiencing of that bliss - where is "the default feeling of time passing" in that? Put differently, I am wondering how investigating time can lead to fascination and/or realizations into the above mentioned feeling example (so as to no longer yield to that blissful compulsion).


I haven't felt that particular feeling much (if at all) so I can't help with that.

Nad A.:
So does time just naturally feel like a still dimension for you? Is it not heading anywhere?

Only when paying exclusive attention to the ongoing sensory experience.


What I meant by 'naturally' is when not paying exclusive and deliberate attention, what does time feel like? If you stopped yourself at a random moment and asked for a quick answer.
srid, modified 11 Years ago at 10/16/10 11:14 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/16/10 11:12 PM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Nad A.:
[...] the sense of moving-time is only clearly a moral force for me when there is an appointment/chore/task coming up. But I think there is always some sense or feeling that time is moving. If you stopped me at any point in the average day and asked whether I felt time was moving, I would say yes.


Nad A.:
So does time just naturally feel like a still dimension for you? Is it not heading anywhere?


If someone asked me at any point in the average day, I would be baffled at the first question (it is in a way strange to think of time as a dimension) ... my general answer would be that there is a series of moments (past moments are gone by; future moments are arriving) that I, the perceiver / experiencer, go "through" in time. It is not time (which is just an abstraction anyway) that is heading anywhere, it is me, the perceiver / experiencer, that is heading through time ... moment by moment (with the next moment coming after present one). That is how I normally feel it.

(Immediately after writing this post, I find some sense in what Jeff Grove wrote above. Hmm)

Aside: you really haven't felt much pining/longing in love, eh?
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Jeff Grove, modified 11 Years ago at 10/17/10 6:49 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/17/10 1:07 AM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Aside: you really haven't felt much pining/longing in love, eh?


In the case of pining/longing in love their is both desire for a person and fear of loss of that same person which is how you are experiencing this moment, this anxiety is your "experience" of time passing, a feedback loop of physical and emotional change, changing thoughts and feelings. An unconscious act becomes consciousness, interior life.
Nad A, modified 11 Years ago at 10/17/10 7:22 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/17/10 7:19 AM

RE: Out of the Starting Gate.... And into the Bushes?

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Sridhar R:
Nad A.:
So does time just naturally feel like a still dimension for you? Is it not heading anywhere?


If someone asked me at any point in the average day, I would be baffled at the first question (it is in a way strange to think of time as a dimension) ... my general answer would be that there is a series of moments (past moments are gone by; future moments are arriving) that I, the perceiver / experiencer, go "through" in time. It is not time (which is just an abstraction anyway) that is heading anywhere, it is me, the perceiver / experiencer, that is heading through time ... moment by moment (with the next moment coming after present one). That is how I normally feel it.

I reckon that I also feel like I'm moving through time occasionally too. They are one and the same phenomena, I would say. Either way, time feels like a substance that is either flowing or that I am flowing through. It's like the sea we're floating in, whether the current is moving towards us or it is we that are moving forward. It's fascinating to me when that movement is seen to be an illusion (when there is no other anxiety or strong feeling running). I tend not to try to go from a strong 'good' or 'bad' feeling straight to fascination with time.

Aside: you really haven't felt much pining/longing in love, eh?


None, lucky me.

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