AF: questioning the PCE and the feeling of being - Discussion
AF: questioning the PCE and the feeling of being
Daniel M Ingram, modified 14 Years ago at 10/2/10 1:54 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/2/10 1:54 PM
AF: questioning the PCE and the feeling of being
Posts: 3288 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Practice keeps changing, and recently a few questions have emerged I thought I would put out there to get some help with.
1) As I look more carefully at the PCE, I begin to wonder how long it lasts in what I would call its "pure form", and I currently think that it must be less than a second before subtle feelings of being arise. Again, exactly where it ends is tricky, when it transitions to an EE or fades entirely is hard to determine until some clearly coarse feeling arises, but I am wondering if what I have previously though of as PCE's were substantially more tainted than I previously thought. While this at once feels like a sign of progress, it also feeling like falling back, as previously it would seem that PCE's could last for some longer period of time, and now they seem subtly flawed in some way even from the near beginning.
2) Seeing that has raised an interest in delving more into exactly what is the "feeling of being" so often mentioned, as I currently believe I am missing more on this front than I suspected. Sorting this out is very slippery, it seems. It is easier to see the results of the feeling of being than itself, the results being nervousness and the like, but sorting out exactly what it is, a physical sensation, mental images, some complex pattern of these, and how this is exactly different from just this flesh and blood body is vexing, and at one level probably illusory, yet, with the vexation itself obviously arising from the feeling of being, and likely the drive to investigate it arising from the feeling of being, and perhaps the investigation itself arising from the feeling of being, which makes me wonder if there is some common element of all those that can be known as it happens and clearly distinguished from just physical, actual reality. Strangely enough, last night I preferred eyes closed practice to just try to track down what the thing was and to watch it in the body second after second, blip after blip, which feels again like insight practice, except I was looking for something different, that feeling itself if it can be found, and whether or not I am just falling back to old habits is unclear, or whether I am just subtly panicking and frustrated, as I suspect, is perhaps more clear, but the assumption that clear seeing must be at the heart of the thing keeps returning, and so it goes.
3) Related to this is the fact that the mind is a fantastic mimic and capable of producing images and sensations that themselves are clearly designed to be mimics of every positive concept and hint regarding AF and can do so with lightening speed. Distinguishing this from the ordinary discriminating faculty of mind itself is again bedeviling at a microscopic and macroscopic level in a way that I didn't notice before. It seems that following each instant of anything and everything direct is the imagination grabbing and manufacturing some imitation of it, almost seeming like an attempt to perpetuate the problem for reasons unknown, habit? fascination?, I have no idea. Obviously the bedevilment is part of the problem also, as the PCE shows that this is all just illusory conflict, and yet, as the PCE itself seems to be less of what I thought it was, the whole thing comes into question again. While PCE's, however long they actually last, are still great, at this point it seems only AF will do, and it must be substantially different in some ways.
4) On the flip side of this, there is substantially less emotional difficulty in general and substantially more immediate satisfaction and happiness and appreciation of the rich textures of life, and yet, the flaws and gaps in it are more apparent. I have noticed this sort of paradoxical progress before in insight practice and assume similar things must apply to AF.
5) One last thing regarding felicitous feelings: often in the PCE there will be this subtle thrill of hairs rising on my arms or of a similarly charged though sometimes subtle sensual enjoyment: how much of this is just natural and how much is part of the problem? If it is a problem: what to do with it beyond just see the process that creates it?
Any thoughts from anyone who has navigated through this successfully (or anyone else who might see things about this I currently don't) are more than welcome. I feel like a person in Equanimity who just can't land stream entry all over again. Well, there it is. Time and time again when some insight strikes regarding this stuff and the mind shifts to whatever is the sense, "Ah, that must have been it!" and then seconds later is the realization, "Nope, not yet..." which itself is obviously illusion and yet, as that illusion still holds sway, is reality, using the word in its specific AF meaning.
Related to this is the age-old conflict of family vs practice and what to do with vacation time. It has been years since I had to deal with this, and it brings renewed sympathy for those who are facing similar dilemmas. I have an a very kind invitation to hang out with two AF people over Thanksgiving, both of whom I like a lot as well as have much to learn from, and at the same time there will be a rare and large gathering of family members at my house as well as the baby shower for my new step-granddaughter. The feeling that AF could be any moment, this moment, just one shift of consciousness away or even less, has made it hard to make the decision, and yet, days go on and the thing is not done, and past experience has shown me that contact with people who know what you want to know is invaluable, and what could be more important than finishing this? Nothing I can think of, and thus I will probably go.
I am reminded of a time when I had to make a decision about the 3-month retreat at IMS and had just recently gotten second path. I had been on the waiting list for a long time, and about a week before it they called me and told me there was a cancellation and said I had 24 hours to make up my mind if I could go, which is obviously a huge decision to make that short term and I had just found enough employment to pay the rent, and so I decided not to go, and managed to get third path during that same time anyway on my own, but that doesn't mean I will have the same luck this time. Nothing easy about all this, is there? Or could it just be that easy...
1) As I look more carefully at the PCE, I begin to wonder how long it lasts in what I would call its "pure form", and I currently think that it must be less than a second before subtle feelings of being arise. Again, exactly where it ends is tricky, when it transitions to an EE or fades entirely is hard to determine until some clearly coarse feeling arises, but I am wondering if what I have previously though of as PCE's were substantially more tainted than I previously thought. While this at once feels like a sign of progress, it also feeling like falling back, as previously it would seem that PCE's could last for some longer period of time, and now they seem subtly flawed in some way even from the near beginning.
2) Seeing that has raised an interest in delving more into exactly what is the "feeling of being" so often mentioned, as I currently believe I am missing more on this front than I suspected. Sorting this out is very slippery, it seems. It is easier to see the results of the feeling of being than itself, the results being nervousness and the like, but sorting out exactly what it is, a physical sensation, mental images, some complex pattern of these, and how this is exactly different from just this flesh and blood body is vexing, and at one level probably illusory, yet, with the vexation itself obviously arising from the feeling of being, and likely the drive to investigate it arising from the feeling of being, and perhaps the investigation itself arising from the feeling of being, which makes me wonder if there is some common element of all those that can be known as it happens and clearly distinguished from just physical, actual reality. Strangely enough, last night I preferred eyes closed practice to just try to track down what the thing was and to watch it in the body second after second, blip after blip, which feels again like insight practice, except I was looking for something different, that feeling itself if it can be found, and whether or not I am just falling back to old habits is unclear, or whether I am just subtly panicking and frustrated, as I suspect, is perhaps more clear, but the assumption that clear seeing must be at the heart of the thing keeps returning, and so it goes.
3) Related to this is the fact that the mind is a fantastic mimic and capable of producing images and sensations that themselves are clearly designed to be mimics of every positive concept and hint regarding AF and can do so with lightening speed. Distinguishing this from the ordinary discriminating faculty of mind itself is again bedeviling at a microscopic and macroscopic level in a way that I didn't notice before. It seems that following each instant of anything and everything direct is the imagination grabbing and manufacturing some imitation of it, almost seeming like an attempt to perpetuate the problem for reasons unknown, habit? fascination?, I have no idea. Obviously the bedevilment is part of the problem also, as the PCE shows that this is all just illusory conflict, and yet, as the PCE itself seems to be less of what I thought it was, the whole thing comes into question again. While PCE's, however long they actually last, are still great, at this point it seems only AF will do, and it must be substantially different in some ways.
4) On the flip side of this, there is substantially less emotional difficulty in general and substantially more immediate satisfaction and happiness and appreciation of the rich textures of life, and yet, the flaws and gaps in it are more apparent. I have noticed this sort of paradoxical progress before in insight practice and assume similar things must apply to AF.
5) One last thing regarding felicitous feelings: often in the PCE there will be this subtle thrill of hairs rising on my arms or of a similarly charged though sometimes subtle sensual enjoyment: how much of this is just natural and how much is part of the problem? If it is a problem: what to do with it beyond just see the process that creates it?
Any thoughts from anyone who has navigated through this successfully (or anyone else who might see things about this I currently don't) are more than welcome. I feel like a person in Equanimity who just can't land stream entry all over again. Well, there it is. Time and time again when some insight strikes regarding this stuff and the mind shifts to whatever is the sense, "Ah, that must have been it!" and then seconds later is the realization, "Nope, not yet..." which itself is obviously illusion and yet, as that illusion still holds sway, is reality, using the word in its specific AF meaning.
Related to this is the age-old conflict of family vs practice and what to do with vacation time. It has been years since I had to deal with this, and it brings renewed sympathy for those who are facing similar dilemmas. I have an a very kind invitation to hang out with two AF people over Thanksgiving, both of whom I like a lot as well as have much to learn from, and at the same time there will be a rare and large gathering of family members at my house as well as the baby shower for my new step-granddaughter. The feeling that AF could be any moment, this moment, just one shift of consciousness away or even less, has made it hard to make the decision, and yet, days go on and the thing is not done, and past experience has shown me that contact with people who know what you want to know is invaluable, and what could be more important than finishing this? Nothing I can think of, and thus I will probably go.
I am reminded of a time when I had to make a decision about the 3-month retreat at IMS and had just recently gotten second path. I had been on the waiting list for a long time, and about a week before it they called me and told me there was a cancellation and said I had 24 hours to make up my mind if I could go, which is obviously a huge decision to make that short term and I had just found enough employment to pay the rent, and so I decided not to go, and managed to get third path during that same time anyway on my own, but that doesn't mean I will have the same luck this time. Nothing easy about all this, is there? Or could it just be that easy...
Trent , modified 14 Years ago at 10/2/10 4:45 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/2/10 4:45 PM
RE: AF: questioning the PCE and the feeling of being
Posts: 361 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Hi Daniel,
I remember having the same confusion as well. Some time after having that realization, I spent a lot of time wondering if I had ever had more than 1-2 "real" PCE's, which experience was the "real one," which one would be like the end (after AF), and other related worries. The trick to this, I found, was to just ignore all thinking and feeling about this completely. Try to see the lack of utility in even figuring out which is which; or at least see the opportunity cost of doing that rather than enjoying this moment of being alive, or investigating the triggers for one's issues, or whatever other form of practice you prefer.
There was one PCE-- which began at the gathering I met you and Tarin at a few years back in MN and which lasted for 2 to 3 days-- which was very similar to how AF is. Randomly during the first few days of AF I had memories of the things I had smelled during that PCE, things I had looked at, things I had felt with my fingers, things I had eaten...There were points in time, when I would be trying so hard to figure "it" out, that I would try to call up that experience and to no avail. I knew-- because of the quality of the experience-- that it was significant in many ways and could be very useful, but I just could not really remember why, or how to call up the useful information about it, or do anything very practical about my knowledge of that experience. But the memory-- just the memory without anything else-- that said "that is where I want to be forever" kept me going through the times like those; times where I deluded myself into thinking I did not know what to do, did not know where to go, did not know how to finish the thing, and so on. It turns out that none of that mattered at all-- and I knew that in some way (hence the frustration), but the thing basically finishes when it's finished, and all that really means is being here and now as calmly and peacefully and delighted as can be.
As the actual world is always here and now, any frustration at not being able to "get it" is mostly going to be frustration about frustration (frustration will loop in on itself because the frustration will be the cause and the effect). It may be worth thinking about why you want to be AF, what value you find in that proposition, and why it is frustrating to not be that way right now; there may be an emotional investment to getting it done, or getting it done at some speed, or getting it done before some event, or getting it done because of (etc).
The feeling of being and the results of the feeling of being are the same thing-- "I" am "my" feelings and "my" feelings are "me." If that is not realized deeply enough, I suspect it would lead one to have notions of "it" being very slippery, probably illusory, and so on. Which is to say: it really is those things, because the whole dhrama is 'you' chasing 'your tail' around in circles, whilst accidentally ignoring the fact that the actual world is not clear and stable while one is dizzying about.
I had similar notions / experiences for what seemed like quite a long time. I do not recall ever having done anything directly to address this...the tendency to sense that or be that way just slowly faded away. I had a sense of this type of thing going on until maybe a day or two before AF, and I think it may have been something to do with the fundamental sense of being itself, or some part of the identity that had some ethical / moral beliefs about AF ideals (whether I or others should / should not be AF and the like). I draw that correlation because the few days prior to AF, there had not been much of a sense of 'me' / 'I' at all.
Much of the process is in trying to eliminate things which are in the way of actuality and to mimic actuality as close as 'I' can. At a certain point, it seems that the self which mimics actuality is slowly and subtly replaced by actuality itself, until there is simply no more left to replace. In other words: this may be par for the course. Has anyone else reading this experienced similar?
The gaps will become more apparent until they are no more; which is part of the fundamental package of having a 'self.' What is left to be done will fixate on itself (those things that seem worthy of obsessing about, those things 'I' think are critical to 'my' survival) until there is nothing left to fixate on; and so as the diversity of things to obsess about becomes lower and lower in quantity, the obviousness of what is left becomes more and more apparent. Understanding this very clearly is important, as it places great emphasis on being honest about what is being experienced. In other words: look for possible issues lying in "no practice zones" (those things you may have inadvertently put out of bounds), or look for thoughts to debunk such as "I don't know what to do next" (because what is next is probably actually pretty obvious if you're able to muster the courage to look it in the eye).
Personally, I did not see that as any part of the problem; those feelings seem to extinguish themselves when the time is right. You may also want to keep an eye out for A&P qualities, as I think I was tricked by a few particularly strong A&P-EE's several times, and those seemed like the "holy grail" for a while, which had me resisting forward progress because I knew that I was moving away from said grail and simply did not want to accept that as being necessary. That issue could also be related to the other questions above, especially #1.
Trent
Daniel M. Ingram:
1) As I look more carefully at the PCE, I begin to wonder how long it lasts in what I would call its "pure form", and I currently think that it must be less than a second before subtle feelings of being arise. Again, exactly where it ends is tricky, when it transitions to an EE or fades entirely is hard to determine until some clearly coarse feeling arises, but I am wondering if what I have previously though of as PCE's were substantially more tainted than I previously thought. While this at once feels like a sign of progress, it also feeling like falling back, as previously it would seem that PCE's could last for some longer period of time, and now they seem subtly flawed in some way even from the near beginning.
I remember having the same confusion as well. Some time after having that realization, I spent a lot of time wondering if I had ever had more than 1-2 "real" PCE's, which experience was the "real one," which one would be like the end (after AF), and other related worries. The trick to this, I found, was to just ignore all thinking and feeling about this completely. Try to see the lack of utility in even figuring out which is which; or at least see the opportunity cost of doing that rather than enjoying this moment of being alive, or investigating the triggers for one's issues, or whatever other form of practice you prefer.
There was one PCE-- which began at the gathering I met you and Tarin at a few years back in MN and which lasted for 2 to 3 days-- which was very similar to how AF is. Randomly during the first few days of AF I had memories of the things I had smelled during that PCE, things I had looked at, things I had felt with my fingers, things I had eaten...There were points in time, when I would be trying so hard to figure "it" out, that I would try to call up that experience and to no avail. I knew-- because of the quality of the experience-- that it was significant in many ways and could be very useful, but I just could not really remember why, or how to call up the useful information about it, or do anything very practical about my knowledge of that experience. But the memory-- just the memory without anything else-- that said "that is where I want to be forever" kept me going through the times like those; times where I deluded myself into thinking I did not know what to do, did not know where to go, did not know how to finish the thing, and so on. It turns out that none of that mattered at all-- and I knew that in some way (hence the frustration), but the thing basically finishes when it's finished, and all that really means is being here and now as calmly and peacefully and delighted as can be.
As the actual world is always here and now, any frustration at not being able to "get it" is mostly going to be frustration about frustration (frustration will loop in on itself because the frustration will be the cause and the effect). It may be worth thinking about why you want to be AF, what value you find in that proposition, and why it is frustrating to not be that way right now; there may be an emotional investment to getting it done, or getting it done at some speed, or getting it done before some event, or getting it done because of (etc).
Daniel M. Ingram:
2) Seeing that has raised an interest in delving more into exactly what is the "feeling of being" so often mentioned, as I currently believe I am missing more on this front than I suspected. Sorting this out is very slippery, it seems. It is easier to see the results of the feeling of being than itself, the results being nervousness and the like, but sorting out exactly what it is, a physical sensation, mental images, some complex pattern of these, and how this is exactly different from just this flesh and blood body is vexing, and at one level probably illusory, yet, with the vexation itself obviously arising from the feeling of being, and likely the drive to investigate it arising from the feeling of being, and perhaps the investigation itself arising from the feeling of being, which makes me wonder if there is some common element of all those that can be known as it happens and clearly distinguished from just physical, actual reality. Strangely enough, last night I preferred eyes closed practice to just try to track down what the thing was and to watch it in the body second after second, blip after blip, which feels again like insight practice, except I was looking for something different, that feeling itself if it can be found, and whether or not I am just falling back to old habits is unclear, or whether I am just subtly panicking and frustrated, as I suspect, is perhaps more clear, but the assumption that clear seeing must be at the heart of the thing keeps returning, and so it goes.
The feeling of being and the results of the feeling of being are the same thing-- "I" am "my" feelings and "my" feelings are "me." If that is not realized deeply enough, I suspect it would lead one to have notions of "it" being very slippery, probably illusory, and so on. Which is to say: it really is those things, because the whole dhrama is 'you' chasing 'your tail' around in circles, whilst accidentally ignoring the fact that the actual world is not clear and stable while one is dizzying about.
Daniel M. Ingram:
3) Related to this is the fact that the mind is a fantastic mimic and capable of producing images and sensations that themselves are clearly designed to be mimics of every positive concept and hint regarding AF and can do so with lightening speed. Distinguishing this from the ordinary discriminating faculty of mind itself is again bedeviling at a microscopic and macroscopic level in a way that I didn't notice before. It seems that following each instant of anything and everything direct is the imagination grabbing and manufacturing some imitation of it, almost seeming like an attempt to perpetuate the problem for reasons unknown, habit? fascination?, I have no idea. Obviously the bedevilment is part of the problem also, as the PCE shows that this is all just illusory conflict, and yet, as the PCE itself seems to be less of what I thought it was, the whole thing comes into question again. While PCE's, however long they actually last, are still great, at this point it seems only AF will do, and it must be substantially different in some ways.
I had similar notions / experiences for what seemed like quite a long time. I do not recall ever having done anything directly to address this...the tendency to sense that or be that way just slowly faded away. I had a sense of this type of thing going on until maybe a day or two before AF, and I think it may have been something to do with the fundamental sense of being itself, or some part of the identity that had some ethical / moral beliefs about AF ideals (whether I or others should / should not be AF and the like). I draw that correlation because the few days prior to AF, there had not been much of a sense of 'me' / 'I' at all.
Much of the process is in trying to eliminate things which are in the way of actuality and to mimic actuality as close as 'I' can. At a certain point, it seems that the self which mimics actuality is slowly and subtly replaced by actuality itself, until there is simply no more left to replace. In other words: this may be par for the course. Has anyone else reading this experienced similar?
Daniel M. Ingram:
4) On the flip side of this, there is substantially less emotional difficulty in general and substantially more immediate satisfaction and happiness and appreciation of the rich textures of life, and yet, the flaws and gaps in it are more apparent. I have noticed this sort of paradoxical progress before in insight practice and assume similar things must apply to AF.
The gaps will become more apparent until they are no more; which is part of the fundamental package of having a 'self.' What is left to be done will fixate on itself (those things that seem worthy of obsessing about, those things 'I' think are critical to 'my' survival) until there is nothing left to fixate on; and so as the diversity of things to obsess about becomes lower and lower in quantity, the obviousness of what is left becomes more and more apparent. Understanding this very clearly is important, as it places great emphasis on being honest about what is being experienced. In other words: look for possible issues lying in "no practice zones" (those things you may have inadvertently put out of bounds), or look for thoughts to debunk such as "I don't know what to do next" (because what is next is probably actually pretty obvious if you're able to muster the courage to look it in the eye).
Daniel M. Ingram:
5) One last thing regarding felicitous feelings: often in the PCE there will be this subtle thrill of hairs rising on my arms or of a similarly charged though sometimes subtle sensual enjoyment: how much of this is just natural and how much is part of the problem? If it is a problem: what to do with it beyond just see the process that creates it?
Personally, I did not see that as any part of the problem; those feelings seem to extinguish themselves when the time is right. You may also want to keep an eye out for A&P qualities, as I think I was tricked by a few particularly strong A&P-EE's several times, and those seemed like the "holy grail" for a while, which had me resisting forward progress because I knew that I was moving away from said grail and simply did not want to accept that as being necessary. That issue could also be related to the other questions above, especially #1.
Trent
Daniel M Ingram, modified 14 Years ago at 10/3/10 2:23 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/3/10 2:23 AM
RE: AF: questioning the PCE and the feeling of being
Posts: 3288 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Dear Trent,
Your responses all feel right and helpful. Thanks for them.
I will keep at it and keep all this in mind and do my best to let the process happen and enjoy it.
Daniel
Your responses all feel right and helpful. Thanks for them.
I will keep at it and keep all this in mind and do my best to let the process happen and enjoy it.
Daniel
Christian Ballhaus, modified 14 Years ago at 10/4/10 10:00 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/4/10 10:00 AM
RE: AF: questioning the PCE and the feeling of being
Posts: 59 Join Date: 9/11/10 Recent Posts
Hi Dan !!
It may sound stupid but I really would advice to keep it more simple at that point of the process. You had some long PCEs already and it shouldnt be a problem for you to finish this thing. What helped me a lot when i had thoughts and feelings like the ones youre talking of was a little trick. I just said to myself well i dont care for this right now i can figure this out later,perhaps after attaining an Actual freedom now i go back to practice which helps more. Then instantly I went back to beeing happy and harmless. Another important thing is to see that getting the thing done and attaining an Actual freedom is not just a great thing for you to do but for all of us. Its great for all if youre not irratated or restless or fearful or aggressiv. This is the harmless aspect which is very important, so if you start panicing or the whatever Pce dissolves a little bit, Ego centered thoughts start to kick back in just go back to seeing that. Finish the thing for all of us, dont spent so much time thinking in Circles just go back to happy and harmless. Then soon after PCE or Out of Control will kick back in, when it dissolves a bit dont think about it again, you can do later, just go back to happy and harmless, hope youre get an idea of what I mean, this simple method really helped me to finish the thing. ;-)
It may sound stupid but I really would advice to keep it more simple at that point of the process. You had some long PCEs already and it shouldnt be a problem for you to finish this thing. What helped me a lot when i had thoughts and feelings like the ones youre talking of was a little trick. I just said to myself well i dont care for this right now i can figure this out later,perhaps after attaining an Actual freedom now i go back to practice which helps more. Then instantly I went back to beeing happy and harmless. Another important thing is to see that getting the thing done and attaining an Actual freedom is not just a great thing for you to do but for all of us. Its great for all if youre not irratated or restless or fearful or aggressiv. This is the harmless aspect which is very important, so if you start panicing or the whatever Pce dissolves a little bit, Ego centered thoughts start to kick back in just go back to seeing that. Finish the thing for all of us, dont spent so much time thinking in Circles just go back to happy and harmless. Then soon after PCE or Out of Control will kick back in, when it dissolves a bit dont think about it again, you can do later, just go back to happy and harmless, hope youre get an idea of what I mean, this simple method really helped me to finish the thing. ;-)
Daniel M Ingram, modified 14 Years ago at 10/4/10 12:36 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/4/10 12:36 PM
RE: AF: questioning the PCE and the feeling of being
Posts: 3288 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent PostsChristian Ballhaus, modified 14 Years ago at 10/5/10 7:47 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/5/10 7:47 AM
RE: AF: questioning the PCE and the feeling of being
Posts: 59 Join Date: 9/11/10 Recent Posts
Feel free to email further questions. The last meters are a little tricky but you will get this done soon for sure ;-)
, modified 14 Years ago at 10/10/10 9:36 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/10/10 9:25 PM
RE: AF: questioning the PCE and the feeling of being
Posts: 385 Join Date: 8/11/10 Recent Posts
Have you considered writing down your goal every morning and every evening for, say, three weeks?
-- I.e., "My goal today is to become AF."
-- I.e., "My goal today 'is the extinction of this identity entirely'" (tarin's words quoted fromRE: AF and Insight: PCE Mode and Cycling Mode" at 10/6/10 1:42 PM as a reply to Mic Hoe"
Being specific about what your goal is and why (as Trent said,"It may be worth thinking about why you want to be AF, what value you find in that proposition, and why it is frustrating to not be that way right now...") over three weeks, consistently, may release some feelings.
What I don't see in your post here is that you actually want AF. Instead your feelings about AF right now describe uncertain/apparent enthusiasm and anticipation:
It seems only AF will do? What could be more important ?
I may be wrong, but it sounds like you're not convinced that AF is the actual state you want to be right now. That would be very reasonable: if the pool is always open, there is no sense in running madly to it. Otherwise said (and borrowing from your frequent land-the-plane analogies): gradual approaches land the plan, and no one pukes. This doesn't have to be Quito in a storm.
If analysing the "feeling of being" is important to a very subtle daniel, then daniel will continue to do that along with tracking down whatever things are, blip by blip, as this and other habits sustain so-called daniel.
Considering the depth to which you have studied and practiced dharma, however, and from this outsider's perspective, what you are currently doing also seems like very natural, very thorough housecleaning before moving out. I.e., Did I forget anything? and/or wow, I've had some good times here... Maybe some nostalgia?
You have "probably" already designated a moving day. Maybe a twice-daily 'goal reiteration' on paper will help you get to an actual moving day, or, alternatively, discover why you need not move.
-- I.e., "My goal today is to become AF."
-- I.e., "My goal today 'is the extinction of this identity entirely'" (tarin's words quoted fromRE: AF and Insight: PCE Mode and Cycling Mode" at 10/6/10 1:42 PM as a reply to Mic Hoe"
Being specific about what your goal is and why (as Trent said,"It may be worth thinking about why you want to be AF, what value you find in that proposition, and why it is frustrating to not be that way right now...") over three weeks, consistently, may release some feelings.
What I don't see in your post here is that you actually want AF. Instead your feelings about AF right now describe uncertain/apparent enthusiasm and anticipation:
...While PCE's, however long they actually last, are still great, at this point it seems only AF will do, and it must be substantially different in some ways.
...
The feeling that AF could be any moment, this moment, just one shift of consciousness away or even less, has made it hard to make the decision, and yet, days go on and the thing is not done, and past experience has shown me that contact with people who know what you want to know is invaluable, and what could be more important than finishing this? Nothing I can think of, and thus I will probably go
...
The feeling that AF could be any moment, this moment, just one shift of consciousness away or even less, has made it hard to make the decision, and yet, days go on and the thing is not done, and past experience has shown me that contact with people who know what you want to know is invaluable, and what could be more important than finishing this? Nothing I can think of, and thus I will probably go
It seems only AF will do? What could be more important ?
I may be wrong, but it sounds like you're not convinced that AF is the actual state you want to be right now. That would be very reasonable: if the pool is always open, there is no sense in running madly to it. Otherwise said (and borrowing from your frequent land-the-plane analogies): gradual approaches land the plan, and no one pukes. This doesn't have to be Quito in a storm.
If analysing the "feeling of being" is important to a very subtle daniel, then daniel will continue to do that along with tracking down whatever things are, blip by blip, as this and other habits sustain so-called daniel.
Considering the depth to which you have studied and practiced dharma, however, and from this outsider's perspective, what you are currently doing also seems like very natural, very thorough housecleaning before moving out. I.e., Did I forget anything? and/or wow, I've had some good times here... Maybe some nostalgia?
You have "probably" already designated a moving day. Maybe a twice-daily 'goal reiteration' on paper will help you get to an actual moving day, or, alternatively, discover why you need not move.
Daniel M Ingram, modified 14 Years ago at 10/11/10 3:22 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/11/10 3:22 AM
RE: AF: questioning the PCE and the feeling of being
Posts: 3288 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Oh, have no fear, the decision has already been made months ago, AF is where this is headed, which is to say it is here and now and this is just not understood, or however you want to say it. I have had lots of fun over the years with all the rest, but now nothing appeals like the tastes of it I have had. I give this a very large amount of perceptual, conceptual and other sorts of attention, investigation and work each day and night with whatever spare moments I have as best I know how. It has been quite a project to take on during this very busy and complex life I lead, but so far worth it. Progress has been obvious and things are distinctly better.
I was just sharing some thoughts to see what answers I got, as I find contact with those who know how to do what I wish to know of great value, but that is very different from questioning the direction of all this, and just because I see subtle aspects of the PCE that are somewhat tainted in a way I didn't see before, this I think is a sign of progress, or so it seems.
Thanks for your kind advice.
Daniel
I was just sharing some thoughts to see what answers I got, as I find contact with those who know how to do what I wish to know of great value, but that is very different from questioning the direction of all this, and just because I see subtle aspects of the PCE that are somewhat tainted in a way I didn't see before, this I think is a sign of progress, or so it seems.
Thanks for your kind advice.
Daniel
, modified 14 Years ago at 10/11/10 5:56 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/11/10 5:56 AM
RE: AF: questioning the PCE and the feeling of being
Posts: 385 Join Date: 8/11/10 Recent Posts
Ok, no fear for you, just curious and thoughtful about your post.
Personally, having a recurring being feeling has not been vexing to me (probably because being does not involve dark night for these past few months), but it is certainly there -- which feeling of being feels like what the brain does in the same way fingers feel (feeling along the five sense it aggregates), but which also can either a) cause identity or b) be used by existing identity to reinforce itself. I am not sure which it is, but am not tracking it down. My thinking has been if conditions are right for evaporation, then a puddle evaporates. I understand what conditions to keep putting in place if I want the puddle to evaporate.
Thanks for your response and experience.
Personally, having a recurring being feeling has not been vexing to me (probably because being does not involve dark night for these past few months), but it is certainly there -- which feeling of being feels like what the brain does in the same way fingers feel (feeling along the five sense it aggregates), but which also can either a) cause identity or b) be used by existing identity to reinforce itself. I am not sure which it is, but am not tracking it down. My thinking has been if conditions are right for evaporation, then a puddle evaporates. I understand what conditions to keep putting in place if I want the puddle to evaporate.
Thanks for your response and experience.
Christian Ballhaus, modified 14 Years ago at 10/12/10 10:55 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/12/10 10:55 AM
RE: AF: questioning the PCE and the feeling of being
Posts: 59 Join Date: 9/11/10 Recent PostsDaniel M. Ingram:
.
I give this a very large amount of perceptual, conceptual and other sorts of attention, investigation and work each day and night with whatever spare moments I have as best I know how. It has been quite a project to take on during this very busy and complex life I lead, but so far worth it.
Daniel
I give this a very large amount of perceptual, conceptual and other sorts of attention, investigation and work each day and night with whatever spare moments I have as best I know how. It has been quite a project to take on during this very busy and complex life I lead, but so far worth it.
Daniel
Know this situation. Finished this thing during a complex work situation. Again pragmatic trick to mess around with the Ego. I said to myself a few times OK. I finish this thing when I have enough time during my next holiday. Relaxation took place. Then while getting used to that thought getting relaxed I created a free space. From now on to the next holiday. And why not using this self created free space to start instantly and get this thing done earlier also during ultrastressful and complex situations ?!?!? ;-) ( Kickin the Ego created Work- Free Time Duality in the Ass ;-) )
David Nelson, modified 14 Years ago at 10/20/10 1:51 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/20/10 1:51 PM
RE: AF: questioning the PCE and the feeling of being
Posts: 28 Join Date: 10/20/10 Recent Posts
First allow me to introduce myself to the DhO. I discovered AF about 7 years ago in Brazil. At the time I was an enthusiastic Vipassana Goenka meditator, having taken a few 10-day courses. I am currently in communication with the AF google group as it is most convenient for me. Soon I expect to be more active on this site (pic will be posted shortly as well).
I am pleased to discover this active forum on the DhO site. Reading the conversations here has been worthwhile to me. When I heard that you, Trent, had a meeting in MN I had to reply. I live in MN, and would throughly enjoy meeting with anyone interested in AF if they live here or were to pass through this northern state. I'm fairly certain that I have never met anyone in person who has really understood what AF is all about. The reasons for misunderstanding have been myriad but ridiculous all the same. So please let me know, Trent, Tarin, Daniel (or anyone with some familiarity with AF) if you are in the area as it would be nice to discuss the practice face-to-face with somebody.
I am pleased to discover this active forum on the DhO site. Reading the conversations here has been worthwhile to me. When I heard that you, Trent, had a meeting in MN I had to reply. I live in MN, and would throughly enjoy meeting with anyone interested in AF if they live here or were to pass through this northern state. I'm fairly certain that I have never met anyone in person who has really understood what AF is all about. The reasons for misunderstanding have been myriad but ridiculous all the same. So please let me know, Trent, Tarin, Daniel (or anyone with some familiarity with AF) if you are in the area as it would be nice to discuss the practice face-to-face with somebody.