the quanta of sensation and perception - Discussion
the quanta of sensation and perception
Stickman2, modified 5 Years ago at 1/4/19 10:18 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/4/19 10:18 AM
the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 375 Join Date: 7/24/17 Recent Posts
Meditators often experience tingling/pins and needles type of sensations which constitutes piti (I would say).
Pinpoints implies a discrete quantum of sensation.
What would constitute one quantum of inner sensation, in terms of physiology ?
Pinpoints implies a discrete quantum of sensation.
What would constitute one quantum of inner sensation, in terms of physiology ?
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 5 Years ago at 1/4/19 1:26 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/4/19 1:26 PM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 7135 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
That would depend on how high resolution (one aspect of sensory clarity) one has, wouldn’t it? Or what do you mean?
Stickman2, modified 5 Years ago at 1/5/19 7:51 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/5/19 7:50 AM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 375 Join Date: 7/24/17 Recent Posts
Well, let's say you're focussing on the tingling in the body - which is how I got started meditating. Inner sensations also are sometimes described as grainy.
It's a feeling of millions of specks going on and off. Assuming that it's a physiological thing then what exactly is one tingle speck, or grain ?
But now I think about it I can clarify a question which has been on the edge of my mind about all this, which is whether people perceive these things as analogue fields, or as digital masses of on and off points. My own experience is that it's somewhat both at once, but I wonder if following the analogy of pins and needles has affected how I see it ?
So maybe I should ask people - do they perceive, say, piti, as a continuous field or as grainy and made of small discrete specks of feeling ?
And does resolution change ?
It's a feeling of millions of specks going on and off. Assuming that it's a physiological thing then what exactly is one tingle speck, or grain ?
But now I think about it I can clarify a question which has been on the edge of my mind about all this, which is whether people perceive these things as analogue fields, or as digital masses of on and off points. My own experience is that it's somewhat both at once, but I wonder if following the analogy of pins and needles has affected how I see it ?
So maybe I should ask people - do they perceive, say, piti, as a continuous field or as grainy and made of small discrete specks of feeling ?
And does resolution change ?
Chris M, modified 5 Years ago at 1/5/19 10:07 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/5/19 8:08 AM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 5411 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
My answer --
If I'm not paying close attention then every perception appears as continuous, or analog. If I'm paying close attention then every perception appears as discrete quanta-like pieces, or I suppose you could call it digital.
If I'm not paying close attention then every perception appears as continuous, or analog. If I'm paying close attention then every perception appears as discrete quanta-like pieces, or I suppose you could call it digital.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 5 Years ago at 1/5/19 9:02 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/5/19 8:58 AM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 7135 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
These are interesting questions.
Is piti something material or is it just a bunch of sensations that interact with our subjective self? I wouldn’t know, but my guess would be that it is a pattern of sensations that we can learn to manipulate (I’m using a duality language now even though I think it is much more complicated than that; we can’t even be sure that there is something beyond our sensations). It thus has consequences that can be measured, such as heightened levels of certain neurotransmittors and electrical activity in the synapses. I really have no idea how many such electrical charges need to be fired for someone to be able to sense them, but I’m fairly certain that kind of sensory clarity varies in different stages and can be trained. It even seems that it can be selectively trained. A fingertip touching exercise has caused two of my finger tips, and especially one of them, to be much more sensitive than the other ones, or maybe I’m just more familiar with the neural paths connected with them. Maybe they have actually developed new synaptic networks, I don’t know.
Sensory clarity may be developing more ”pixels” to our sensory experiences. I’m not sure how accurate this metaphor is. I’d be happy to hear from somebody more experienced. But if that’s the case, then it would be possible to experience more refined and subtle experiences. That would need power of concentration, though, to direct one’s attention. With poor concentration, lots of sensory input goes unnoticed. There are limitations to both our senses and to our attention, and somehow it seems to be possible to detect that, hence the experience of things being grainy. Unless the objects themselves are grainy, which is also a possibility, I guess. But for now I’m going with the idea that piti is a construction made up of different sensations. I don’t always orient to it that way, though. It is more easily induced when surrendered to as a power.
Now I’m getting confused. I get that even if we are depending on our senses, it is possible to detect their limitations. We have glasses and hearing aid devices, whatever they are called in English. It is possible for us to be attantive to those limitations. But how is it possible to be attentive to the limits of attention? Is that mere deduction from our sensory experiences? I guess it must be. Hm, yeah... We can notice that our attention is flickering between different areas and thus only gets input from a particular point in short impulses. Yet we know that we in daily life tend to construct this as a continuos experience from that point. In the same way, our mind often seems to extrapolate the information from every one single point to a larger area if they are similar enough. So for somebody who is not attentive enough to notice that, all these sensations that are arising and passing in different points as attention ”moves” around (or arises and passes in various locations) seems like one continous sensation of a somewhat larger area. There are probably layers to how refined the experience can be.
Is piti something material or is it just a bunch of sensations that interact with our subjective self? I wouldn’t know, but my guess would be that it is a pattern of sensations that we can learn to manipulate (I’m using a duality language now even though I think it is much more complicated than that; we can’t even be sure that there is something beyond our sensations). It thus has consequences that can be measured, such as heightened levels of certain neurotransmittors and electrical activity in the synapses. I really have no idea how many such electrical charges need to be fired for someone to be able to sense them, but I’m fairly certain that kind of sensory clarity varies in different stages and can be trained. It even seems that it can be selectively trained. A fingertip touching exercise has caused two of my finger tips, and especially one of them, to be much more sensitive than the other ones, or maybe I’m just more familiar with the neural paths connected with them. Maybe they have actually developed new synaptic networks, I don’t know.
Sensory clarity may be developing more ”pixels” to our sensory experiences. I’m not sure how accurate this metaphor is. I’d be happy to hear from somebody more experienced. But if that’s the case, then it would be possible to experience more refined and subtle experiences. That would need power of concentration, though, to direct one’s attention. With poor concentration, lots of sensory input goes unnoticed. There are limitations to both our senses and to our attention, and somehow it seems to be possible to detect that, hence the experience of things being grainy. Unless the objects themselves are grainy, which is also a possibility, I guess. But for now I’m going with the idea that piti is a construction made up of different sensations. I don’t always orient to it that way, though. It is more easily induced when surrendered to as a power.
Now I’m getting confused. I get that even if we are depending on our senses, it is possible to detect their limitations. We have glasses and hearing aid devices, whatever they are called in English. It is possible for us to be attantive to those limitations. But how is it possible to be attentive to the limits of attention? Is that mere deduction from our sensory experiences? I guess it must be. Hm, yeah... We can notice that our attention is flickering between different areas and thus only gets input from a particular point in short impulses. Yet we know that we in daily life tend to construct this as a continuos experience from that point. In the same way, our mind often seems to extrapolate the information from every one single point to a larger area if they are similar enough. So for somebody who is not attentive enough to notice that, all these sensations that are arising and passing in different points as attention ”moves” around (or arises and passes in various locations) seems like one continous sensation of a somewhat larger area. There are probably layers to how refined the experience can be.
Stickman2, modified 5 Years ago at 1/5/19 5:35 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/5/19 5:31 PM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 375 Join Date: 7/24/17 Recent Posts
I've come to think of piti as stimulant neurotransmitters, after reading Leigh Brasington, though I don't know which one, maybe noradrenaline.
If so, then the threshold of exactly how much of the chemical is detectable as sensation may have been studied and available in the literature about such things. Something like - how many molecules of norepinephrine does it take to register it's presence.
I don't know enough physiology to get an idea of how body scanning the inner feelings around the body leads to a rush of piti/noradrenaline, but my subjective experience is that it can.
I started meditiation simply observing the tingling in my extremities and deep breathing, and this led to full blown A&P ecstasy eventually.
At that point my sensation seemed like a general field in all things, yet it also definitely had a champagny/bubbly/grainy quality to it as well.
I'm sure that sensory clarity is trainable like you say, and the nerves connecting brain to fingers do indeed grow and develop.
If so, then the threshold of exactly how much of the chemical is detectable as sensation may have been studied and available in the literature about such things. Something like - how many molecules of norepinephrine does it take to register it's presence.
I don't know enough physiology to get an idea of how body scanning the inner feelings around the body leads to a rush of piti/noradrenaline, but my subjective experience is that it can.
I started meditiation simply observing the tingling in my extremities and deep breathing, and this led to full blown A&P ecstasy eventually.
At that point my sensation seemed like a general field in all things, yet it also definitely had a champagny/bubbly/grainy quality to it as well.
I'm sure that sensory clarity is trainable like you say, and the nerves connecting brain to fingers do indeed grow and develop.
Stickman2, modified 5 Years ago at 1/5/19 5:33 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/5/19 5:33 PM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 375 Join Date: 7/24/17 Recent PostsChris Marti:
My answer --
If I'm not paying close attention then every perception appears as continuous, or analog. If I'm paying close attention then every perception appears as discrete quanta-like pieces, or I suppose you could call it digital.
If I'm not paying close attention then every perception appears as continuous, or analog. If I'm paying close attention then every perception appears as discrete quanta-like pieces, or I suppose you could call it digital.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/sensorium/201812/experiments-suggest-humans-can-directly-observe-the-quantum
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 5 Years ago at 1/5/19 5:58 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/5/19 5:58 PM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 7135 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
My guess would be that a number of neurotransmittors are involved, in various ways at different stages and variants of jhanas. Come to think of it, I have actually seen somebody propose a model for this in a thread somewhere on this forum. Can’t remember who and where.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 5 Years ago at 1/5/19 6:09 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/5/19 6:09 PM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 7135 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent PostsAnna L, modified 5 Years ago at 1/6/19 2:30 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/6/19 2:30 AM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 232 Join Date: 1/21/17 Recent PostsStickman2:
Chris Marti:
My answer --
If I'm not paying close attention then every perception appears as continuous, or analog. If I'm paying close attention then every perception appears as discrete quanta-like pieces, or I suppose you could call it digital.
If I'm not paying close attention then every perception appears as continuous, or analog. If I'm paying close attention then every perception appears as discrete quanta-like pieces, or I suppose you could call it digital.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/sensorium/201812/experiments-suggest-humans-can-directly-observe-the-quantum
Yes, I am with Chris (and physics!) on this one. The object of perception changes/is experienced differently according to whether it is being perceived via a mode of either direct focused attention or peripheral awareness. So it's both for me ...
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 5 Years ago at 1/6/19 3:02 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/6/19 3:02 AM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 7135 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Hypothetically... in third vipassana jhana, where peripheri appears more clear than the center of one’s attention, would that make it more likely to experience the reality as waves?
Stickman2, modified 5 Years ago at 1/10/19 10:00 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/10/19 10:00 PM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 375 Join Date: 7/24/17 Recent PostsSteven E Barnes, modified 5 Years ago at 1/11/19 10:52 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/11/19 10:44 AM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 33 Join Date: 4/15/18 Recent Posts
This is an area of great interest to me, as I have some experiences that I want to understand, and the answers on Reddit were not satisfactory to me. I am a bit of an audio and synth nerd, so I'm going to use a lot of concepts from sound waves...
In certain states of meditation, sensations such as the breath begin to feel "buzzy". This is similar to percieving a sound at the edge of "audio rate" frequencies. Above audio rate, it appears to be a smooth experience (one might describe it as "analog", but all these waves are analog). Below this rate, and you begin to percieve the individual pulses of the wave. I would describe "buzzy" sensataions as a frequency of about 20-40hz.
It seems as if I can change how I experience sensations, such that the precieved pulses can either speed up or slow down. I don't know what this is, whether it corresponds to jhanas, or some kind of vippasana technique...
The next level, the pulses drop to about 10hz. It is kind of like watching a video at a low frame rate. It attention is broad, I experience many rapid pulses of sensation all over my body (this is what my first A&P experience was like, which happened the 5th time I got high on weed). It also seems possible to "grab" the different sensations and start to put all the waves into sync. This results in all of my sensory experience pulsing at this frequency.
Then I can lower it down to about 2-3hz. Then very low, maybe .1 to .5hz. I've tried to "stop all the waves", but it didn't do anything particularily interesting.
Going the other direction, speeding up as much as I can, gets me into intense piti, which is a state of either access concentration or 1st jhana. There also seem to be emotional "flavors" when piti is at "smooth" frequencies; these might also relate to jhanas 1-4, but I'm not sure.
Next we get into the Nyquist frequency... In digital devices, if a sound wave is sampled at below 2x the frequency, you cannot accurately recreate the original sound. This results in "aliasing". Consider a sine wave. If you sample it at exactly 2x frequency, then you can capture the peaks and bottoms of the wave. Replaying it results in a square wave, which can be filtered to recreate the sine wave. However, imagine that we didn't sample the peaks, but instead sampled the points where the wave crosses the zero point. When you recreate the wave you get... nothing. If you sample below 2x, then aliasing results in perceiving a low frequency pulsing of the wave.
This may be what is happening, when we percieve a wave as being slow and "digital". Also, sampling different portions of the wave may relate to some of Daniel Ingram's descriptions of the dukkha nanas, in which we are percieving only the "passing away" phase of sensations.
In certain states of meditation, sensations such as the breath begin to feel "buzzy". This is similar to percieving a sound at the edge of "audio rate" frequencies. Above audio rate, it appears to be a smooth experience (one might describe it as "analog", but all these waves are analog). Below this rate, and you begin to percieve the individual pulses of the wave. I would describe "buzzy" sensataions as a frequency of about 20-40hz.
It seems as if I can change how I experience sensations, such that the precieved pulses can either speed up or slow down. I don't know what this is, whether it corresponds to jhanas, or some kind of vippasana technique...
The next level, the pulses drop to about 10hz. It is kind of like watching a video at a low frame rate. It attention is broad, I experience many rapid pulses of sensation all over my body (this is what my first A&P experience was like, which happened the 5th time I got high on weed). It also seems possible to "grab" the different sensations and start to put all the waves into sync. This results in all of my sensory experience pulsing at this frequency.
Then I can lower it down to about 2-3hz. Then very low, maybe .1 to .5hz. I've tried to "stop all the waves", but it didn't do anything particularily interesting.
Going the other direction, speeding up as much as I can, gets me into intense piti, which is a state of either access concentration or 1st jhana. There also seem to be emotional "flavors" when piti is at "smooth" frequencies; these might also relate to jhanas 1-4, but I'm not sure.
Next we get into the Nyquist frequency... In digital devices, if a sound wave is sampled at below 2x the frequency, you cannot accurately recreate the original sound. This results in "aliasing". Consider a sine wave. If you sample it at exactly 2x frequency, then you can capture the peaks and bottoms of the wave. Replaying it results in a square wave, which can be filtered to recreate the sine wave. However, imagine that we didn't sample the peaks, but instead sampled the points where the wave crosses the zero point. When you recreate the wave you get... nothing. If you sample below 2x, then aliasing results in perceiving a low frequency pulsing of the wave.
This may be what is happening, when we percieve a wave as being slow and "digital". Also, sampling different portions of the wave may relate to some of Daniel Ingram's descriptions of the dukkha nanas, in which we are percieving only the "passing away" phase of sensations.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 5 Years ago at 1/11/19 11:27 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/11/19 11:27 AM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 7135 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent PostsJ C, modified 5 Years ago at 1/11/19 12:54 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/11/19 12:54 PM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 644 Join Date: 4/24/13 Recent PostsSteven E Barnes:
This is an area of great interest to me, as I have some experiences that I want to understand, and the answers on Reddit were not satisfactory to me. I am a bit of an audio and synth nerd, so I'm going to use a lot of concepts from sound waves...
In certain states of meditation, sensations such as the breath begin to feel "buzzy". This is similar to percieving a sound at the edge of "audio rate" frequencies. Above audio rate, it appears to be a smooth experience (one might describe it as "analog", but all these waves are analog). Below this rate, and you begin to percieve the individual pulses of the wave. I would describe "buzzy" sensataions as a frequency of about 20-40hz.
It seems as if I can change how I experience sensations, such that the precieved pulses can either speed up or slow down. I don't know what this is, whether it corresponds to jhanas, or some kind of vippasana technique...
The next level, the pulses drop to about 10hz. It is kind of like watching a video at a low frame rate. It attention is broad, I experience many rapid pulses of sensation all over my body (this is what my first A&P experience was like, which happened the 5th time I got high on weed). It also seems possible to "grab" the different sensations and start to put all the waves into sync. This results in all of my sensory experience pulsing at this frequency.
Then I can lower it down to about 2-3hz. Then very low, maybe .1 to .5hz. I've tried to "stop all the waves", but it didn't do anything particularily interesting.
Going the other direction, speeding up as much as I can, gets me into intense piti, which is a state of either access concentration or 1st jhana. There also seem to be emotional "flavors" when piti is at "smooth" frequencies; these might also relate to jhanas 1-4, but I'm not sure.
Next we get into the Nyquist frequency... In digital devices, if a sound wave is sampled at below 2x the frequency, you cannot accurately recreate the original sound. This results in "aliasing". Consider a sine wave. If you sample it at exactly 2x frequency, then you can capture the peaks and bottoms of the wave. Replaying it results in a square wave, which can be filtered to recreate the sine wave. However, imagine that we didn't sample the peaks, but instead sampled the points where the wave crosses the zero point. When you recreate the wave you get... nothing. If you sample below 2x, then aliasing results in perceiving a low frequency pulsing of the wave.
This may be what is happening, when we percieve a wave as being slow and "digital". Also, sampling different portions of the wave may relate to some of Daniel Ingram's descriptions of the dukkha nanas, in which we are percieving only the "passing away" phase of sensations.
In certain states of meditation, sensations such as the breath begin to feel "buzzy". This is similar to percieving a sound at the edge of "audio rate" frequencies. Above audio rate, it appears to be a smooth experience (one might describe it as "analog", but all these waves are analog). Below this rate, and you begin to percieve the individual pulses of the wave. I would describe "buzzy" sensataions as a frequency of about 20-40hz.
It seems as if I can change how I experience sensations, such that the precieved pulses can either speed up or slow down. I don't know what this is, whether it corresponds to jhanas, or some kind of vippasana technique...
The next level, the pulses drop to about 10hz. It is kind of like watching a video at a low frame rate. It attention is broad, I experience many rapid pulses of sensation all over my body (this is what my first A&P experience was like, which happened the 5th time I got high on weed). It also seems possible to "grab" the different sensations and start to put all the waves into sync. This results in all of my sensory experience pulsing at this frequency.
Then I can lower it down to about 2-3hz. Then very low, maybe .1 to .5hz. I've tried to "stop all the waves", but it didn't do anything particularily interesting.
Going the other direction, speeding up as much as I can, gets me into intense piti, which is a state of either access concentration or 1st jhana. There also seem to be emotional "flavors" when piti is at "smooth" frequencies; these might also relate to jhanas 1-4, but I'm not sure.
Next we get into the Nyquist frequency... In digital devices, if a sound wave is sampled at below 2x the frequency, you cannot accurately recreate the original sound. This results in "aliasing". Consider a sine wave. If you sample it at exactly 2x frequency, then you can capture the peaks and bottoms of the wave. Replaying it results in a square wave, which can be filtered to recreate the sine wave. However, imagine that we didn't sample the peaks, but instead sampled the points where the wave crosses the zero point. When you recreate the wave you get... nothing. If you sample below 2x, then aliasing results in perceiving a low frequency pulsing of the wave.
This may be what is happening, when we percieve a wave as being slow and "digital". Also, sampling different portions of the wave may relate to some of Daniel Ingram's descriptions of the dukkha nanas, in which we are percieving only the "passing away" phase of sensations.
Steven, I'm really interested in a lot of this as well.
Can you link to your reddit posts?
Can you clarify for me the situation with hearing frequencies at the low threshold of hearing?
Somewhere around 10 Hz it goes from hearing a lot of little pulses to a low tone - but I can't quite tell if the little pulses become a low tone, or if the low tone comes in in addition to all the little pulses.
In other words, is hearing a tone a reinterpretation of rapid pulses, or is it something else on top of the pulses?
Steven E Barnes, modified 5 Years ago at 1/11/19 2:06 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/11/19 2:06 PM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 33 Join Date: 4/15/18 Recent PostsJ C:
Can you clarify for me the situation with hearing frequencies at the low threshold of hearing?
Somewhere around 10 Hz it goes from hearing a lot of little pulses to a low tone - but I can't quite tell if the little pulses become a low tone, or if the low tone comes in in addition to all the little pulses.
In other words, is hearing a tone a reinterpretation of rapid pulses, or is it something else on top of the pulses?
Somewhere around 10 Hz it goes from hearing a lot of little pulses to a low tone - but I can't quite tell if the little pulses become a low tone, or if the low tone comes in in addition to all the little pulses.
In other words, is hearing a tone a reinterpretation of rapid pulses, or is it something else on top of the pulses?
What I notice as I drop the frequency on a synth, the sound becomes "farty" and you can distinquish pulses; going lower, it is more felt than heard.
A concept I didn't go into is difference frequencies, which is another possible explanation for experiencing phenomena as "pulsing"...
When tuning by ear, we compare the sound of 2 notes. At first, they sound like different notes that are out of tune. As the notes get closer in freqency, they stop being perceived as distinct tones. Instead you hear one tone with a low frequency wavering (like tremelo). This wavering is the difference between the two frequencies. As the notes get closer, the tremelo frequency slows, and eventually becomes imperceptable.
Steven E Barnes, modified 5 Years ago at 1/11/19 4:24 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/11/19 4:07 PM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 33 Join Date: 4/15/18 Recent Posts
I tried to keep my messages at a reasonable length, and may have glossed over some important distinctions. My discussions of sound waves were intended as an analogy for all types of "wave-like phenomena" we experience in meditation.
In TMI terms, consciousness has a "bandwidth" of about 40 events per second, called percieving mind moments. If I am experiencing a sound as 10 pulses per second, this does not mean the sound is 10hz. Each pulse contains sound information, some fraction of a second in duration, made up of many frequencies.
In fact, the concept of tone requires an element of time. If you could take an instaneous measurement of sound in your eardrum, it would be a pressure value. To percieve audio tones, or visual motion, our brains have to collect sensory data over some time period, and then analyze it (edit: the ear is complex, with "hairs" that are related to hearing different frequencies, so I guess the ears are generating a lot more than simple pressure values)
I am ignorant of neuroscience, but I assume that our sensory organs sample sensory data at some frequency, then the brain converts it back into waves. Then these streams of sensory data are mixed into consciousness along with other mental events. In computer terms, this is "packet switching"; the communication channel can contain only one thing at a time.
So the question of whether our experience of reality is analog or digital is complex. We experience reality as discrete chunks of information in consciousness, but those chunks are presumably packets of analog information.
In TMI terms, consciousness has a "bandwidth" of about 40 events per second, called percieving mind moments. If I am experiencing a sound as 10 pulses per second, this does not mean the sound is 10hz. Each pulse contains sound information, some fraction of a second in duration, made up of many frequencies.
In fact, the concept of tone requires an element of time. If you could take an instaneous measurement of sound in your eardrum, it would be a pressure value. To percieve audio tones, or visual motion, our brains have to collect sensory data over some time period, and then analyze it (edit: the ear is complex, with "hairs" that are related to hearing different frequencies, so I guess the ears are generating a lot more than simple pressure values)
I am ignorant of neuroscience, but I assume that our sensory organs sample sensory data at some frequency, then the brain converts it back into waves. Then these streams of sensory data are mixed into consciousness along with other mental events. In computer terms, this is "packet switching"; the communication channel can contain only one thing at a time.
So the question of whether our experience of reality is analog or digital is complex. We experience reality as discrete chunks of information in consciousness, but those chunks are presumably packets of analog information.
J C, modified 5 Years ago at 1/14/19 1:23 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/14/19 1:23 PM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 644 Join Date: 4/24/13 Recent PostsSteven E Barnes:
J C:
Can you clarify for me the situation with hearing frequencies at the low threshold of hearing?
Somewhere around 10 Hz it goes from hearing a lot of little pulses to a low tone - but I can't quite tell if the little pulses become a low tone, or if the low tone comes in in addition to all the little pulses.
In other words, is hearing a tone a reinterpretation of rapid pulses, or is it something else on top of the pulses?
Somewhere around 10 Hz it goes from hearing a lot of little pulses to a low tone - but I can't quite tell if the little pulses become a low tone, or if the low tone comes in in addition to all the little pulses.
In other words, is hearing a tone a reinterpretation of rapid pulses, or is it something else on top of the pulses?
What I notice as I drop the frequency on a synth, the sound becomes "farty" and you can distinquish pulses; going lower, it is more felt than heard.
A concept I didn't go into is difference frequencies, which is another possible explanation for experiencing phenomena as "pulsing"...
When tuning by ear, we compare the sound of 2 notes. At first, they sound like different notes that are out of tune. As the notes get closer in freqency, they stop being perceived as distinct tones. Instead you hear one tone with a low frequency wavering (like tremelo). This wavering is the difference between the two frequencies. As the notes get closer, the tremelo frequency slows, and eventually becomes imperceptable.
I'm talking about hearing one note at a constant frequency - say, a pure sine wave.
The lowest tone people can hear varies a lot from person to person - some people have a limit of 20 Hz and some can hear lower.
But that's not really the point - my question had to do with the switch between hearing individual pulses and hearing a tone. At, say, 5 Hz, you'll just hear 5 little blips in a second. I'm wondering how the switch works, whether it's at 10 Hz or 30 Hz - is the tone in addition to the blips, or do the blips turn into a tone? Do you understand what I mean?
Can you link me to your reddit post?
J C, modified 5 Years ago at 1/14/19 1:26 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 1/14/19 1:26 PM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 644 Join Date: 4/24/13 Recent PostsSteven E Barnes:
If I am experiencing a sound as 10 pulses per second, this does not mean the sound is 10hz. Each pulse contains sound information, some fraction of a second in duration, made up of many frequencies.
To clarify, this is not what I'm talking about. Yes, I know you could theoretically hear a 100Hz tone played staccato so you heard 5 little blips in a second - just tap a piano key quickly or something. But I'm asking about, say, a pure sine wave 5 Hz tone, which sounds like a metronome ticking 300 beats a minute as opposed to a constant tone.
Stickman2, modified 5 Years ago at 2/28/19 1:56 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 2/28/19 1:56 PM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 375 Join Date: 7/24/17 Recent Posts
Nice exposition, yeah you put your finger on some of the ways we switch between analogue and digital perception. Our experience is full of these sort of changes from perception of a smoothness to perception of discrete packets or objects etc.
We could ask whether some of the permanent transitions contemplatives undergo result in a permanent shift to a super fundamental analogue state - indivisible consciousness/emptiness/unity etc.
When people say that the ultimate reality is One, it seems like they have come off the fence and come down permanently on the side of analogue. In a way....
Or maybe that the two categories are insufficient as fundamental properties of reality.
We could ask whether some of the permanent transitions contemplatives undergo result in a permanent shift to a super fundamental analogue state - indivisible consciousness/emptiness/unity etc.
When people say that the ultimate reality is One, it seems like they have come off the fence and come down permanently on the side of analogue. In a way....
Or maybe that the two categories are insufficient as fundamental properties of reality.
Dan Jones, modified 5 Years ago at 8/29/19 10:36 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 8/29/19 9:57 AM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 40 Join Date: 3/15/18 Recent PostsStickman2:
Meditators often experience tingling/pins and needles type of sensations which constitutes piti (I would say).
Pinpoints implies a discrete quantum of sensation.
What would constitute one quantum of inner sensation, in terms of physiology ?
Pinpoints implies a discrete quantum of sensation.
What would constitute one quantum of inner sensation, in terms of physiology ?
Sensation and perception are two completely different things.
vedana and sanna
below the level of vedana is nama-rupa (mentality / materiality) which is one of the four ultimate realities (the others being citta - consciousness, as in, consciousness-of-mentalformation / material formation) and nibanna.
One "unit" of sensation is a conceptualization, so this will always be at realitive level - part of relative reality. Just like any other unit of measurement or conceptualization. Part of the issue is mistaking that relative reality for the ultimate and desiring that through making an object out of things - *objectification*. It happens, sadly, in the corruptions of insight. For instance: "I want my piti" etc It happens, also, with tables and chairs - ants don't know "tables and chairs".
Existence / non-existence is not the buddhas concern, but he does point out how insistence and grasping to existence and non-existence generate suffering
There's something deep in all this about D.O & origination of self and object and relative / ultimate realities.
Watch this process of conceptualization, "creating an object out of things" or mistaking some aspect of relative reality for ultimate reality and the like The elements meditations in the MahaSattipattana Sutta are instructive on coming into contact with this material ultimate reality in a meditative context if you're interested in that sort of thing.
It's like when some new amazing thing comes 'online', perhaps we are a baby and just learning what hands are, wow! Then eventually they're some object.
Most common experience would be like feeling pins and needles in the leg and imagining that they were actual pins and needles, this sort of relative reality / objectification creates oversight.
The practice is insight.
Dan Jones, modified 5 Years ago at 8/29/19 10:33 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 8/29/19 10:33 AM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 40 Join Date: 3/15/18 Recent PostsChris Marti:
My answer --
If I'm not paying close attention then every perception appears as continuous, or analog. If I'm paying close attention then every perception appears as discrete quanta-like pieces, or I suppose you could call it digital.
If I'm not paying close attention then every perception appears as continuous, or analog. If I'm paying close attention then every perception appears as discrete quanta-like pieces, or I suppose you could call it digital.
How do you distinguish between the perceptions / mentality and materiality in this?
Chris M, modified 5 Years ago at 8/29/19 12:17 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 8/29/19 12:17 PM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 5411 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent PostsHow do you distinguish between the perceptions / mentality and materiality in this?
There is a mental echo after every sensory stimulus. In what I called analog mode this echo appears as "real." That's more or less what I meant by using the word "continuous." I could have said "solid," too. When I'm paying attention to the process (dependent origination) the mental echo is obviously part of a series of constructs, impermanent, not me, and so on. It is this recognition that was the most difficult part of early practice and also the most revealing of what was actually happening during the process of perceiving. When this distinction (insight) becomes clear other insights follow.
Hope this answers your question.
spatial, modified 5 Years ago at 8/30/19 10:01 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 8/30/19 10:01 PM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 615 Join Date: 5/20/18 Recent PostsChris Marti:
How do you distinguish between the perceptions / mentality and materiality in this?
There is a mental echo after every sensory stimulus. In what I called analog mode this echo appears as "real." That's more or less what I meant by using the word "continuous." I could have said "solid," too. When I'm paying attention to the process (dependent origination) the mental echo is obviously part of a series of constructs, impermanent, not me, and so on. It is this recognition that was the most difficult part of early practice and also the most revealing of what was actually happening during the process of perceiving. When this distinction (insight) becomes clear other insights follow.
Hope this answers your question.
Why is it that I don't perceive sensations in certain parts of the body, until I put my attention on them? Am I correct in that the stimulus is simply not there until the attention is configured correctly? If so, this seems really important, since it is then the attention which is "creating" the sensation. Right? Like, there's some chain of events which starts with "movement of the attention", and ends with "mental echo".
Chris M, modified 5 Years ago at 8/31/19 8:35 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 8/31/19 8:35 AM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 5411 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent PostsWhy is it that I don't perceive sensations in certain parts of the body, until I put my attention on them?
Your mind is both a filter and a prediction engine. The vast majority of your sensory input is ignored and the majority of the rest is created. There is very serious scientific research being conducted in this realm as we speak, but the consensus is, as you have discovered, that the mind has to filter or be overwhelmed and useless. At the same time, it uses past experience to predict immediate future experience. I can provide links if you want as I've been interested in this research as an adjunct to practice.
From the practice perspective, I notice that there is a threshold of sensation required to bring a specific sensation into attention. Most things are below that level, so the chain starts not with every sensation but with the big and bold ones - the ones that seem to matter right here and now, for whatever reason.
Chris M, modified 5 Years ago at 8/31/19 11:32 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 8/31/19 11:31 AM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 5411 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Oh heck, here's link: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-neuroscience-of-reality/
The central idea of predictive perception is that the brain is attempting to figure out what is out there in the world (or in here, in the body) by continually making and updating best guesses about the causes of its sensory inputs. It forms these best guesses by combining prior expectations or “beliefs” about the world, together with incoming sensory data, in a way that takes into account how reliable the sensory signals are. Scientists usually conceive of this process as a form of Bayesian inference, a framework that specifies how to update beliefs or best guesses with new data when both are laden with uncertainty.
spatial, modified 5 Years ago at 9/2/19 10:04 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 9/2/19 10:04 AM
RE: the quanta of sensation and perception
Posts: 615 Join Date: 5/20/18 Recent PostsChris Marti:
Oh heck, here's link: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-neuroscience-of-reality/
The central idea of predictive perception is that the brain is attempting to figure out what is out there in the world (or in here, in the body) by continually making and updating best guesses about the causes of its sensory inputs. It forms these best guesses by combining prior expectations or “beliefs” about the world, together with incoming sensory data, in a way that takes into account how reliable the sensory signals are. Scientists usually conceive of this process as a form of Bayesian inference, a framework that specifies how to update beliefs or best guesses with new data when both are laden with uncertainty.
That looks very interesting. Thanks!