Polly Ester’s practice log 2 - Discussion
Maybe chill out a bit and watch a movie. 
standup comedy on Netflix. Take some advil and meditate tomorrow .
There is a self. It is just not continuous or separate from anything else. Maybe there is a higher power or not. I would stick your with experience. Now doesn't sound like the time to form belief systems.
standup comedy on Netflix. Take some advil and meditate tomorrow .There is a self. It is just not continuous or separate from anything else. Maybe there is a higher power or not. I would stick your with experience. Now doesn't sound like the time to form belief systems.
Chris Marti:
This is a common fear and it can be debilitating, but emptiness in Buddhism doesn't mean non-existent. It means without permanence, without essence. You exist, just not in the permanent form you previously conceived of. And there is meaning, no matter what. It, too, isn't what we may have always thought it was, but it exists in a likewise impermanent form.
Buddhism is not nihilism.
Buddhism is not nihilism.
Thanks for clarifying that point, I felt bad when Polly posted about the fear she was feeling. I should have been more clear, or perhaps just left the advice to the more qualified posters.
Lars:
Chris Marti:
This is a common fear and it can be debilitating, but emptiness in Buddhism doesn't mean non-existent. It means without permanence, without essence. You exist, just not in the permanent form you previously conceived of. And there is meaning, no matter what. It, too, isn't what we may have always thought it was, but it exists in a likewise impermanent form.
Buddhism is not nihilism.
Buddhism is not nihilism.
Thanks for clarifying that point, I felt bad when Polly posted about the fear she was feeling. I should have been more clear, or perhaps just left the advice to the more qualified posters.
Where did you comment? I haven’t written about it anywhere but here as far as I can remember.
Emptiness of phenomena properly understood means they do not exist from their own side, without support from other phenomena. In other words phenomena do not exist inherently but depend completely on other phenomena for their (conventional) existence. What they do not have is atomic, unitary, independent existence. But that doesn't mean they don't (conventionally) exist.
IMHO the best way to understand emptiness is to experience it
I think the nuance (complication) comes from trying to use language to describe something that isn't reducible to a concept or a construct that language can handle. It's like describing the taste of coca cola to someone who has never tasted coca cola.
Chris Marti:
Emptiness of phenomena properly understood means they do not exist from their own side, without support from other phenomena. In other words phenomena do not exist inherently but depend completely on other phenomena for their (conventional) existence. What they do not have is atomic, unitary, independent existence. But that doesn't mean they don't (conventionally) exist.
IMHO the best way to understand emptiness is to experience it
I think the nuance (complication) comes from trying to use language to describe something that isn't reducible to a concept or a construct that language can handle. It's like describing the taste of coca cola to someone who has never tasted coca cola.
That makes sense too.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Milo:
I second this. In english, emptiness has lots of baggage in the form of negative connotations that obscure what's meant in a dharma sense. It's bad enough that when people new to dharma teachings encounter the term they will often dismiss the whole project as nihilistic. For this reason I'm in favor of keeping with the pali terms or finding some better terminology like "not independently existent" or similar, even though that is fairly cumbersome.
Yup.
I’m thinking that it seems to resemble compatibilistic determinism much more than nihilism. I have also noticed similarities to what Derek Parfit talks about in On What Matters, at least in the first chapters that I have actually read.
It's interesting that you bring up both compatibilism and Parfit, since I've found both very relevant to awakening.
There was a point where the idea that I have some sort of personal identity just stopped making any sense. Before that point, I was obsessed with philosophy of personal identity, including Parfit - questions like "if you step into a duplicating machine, which copy are you? What if you make a copy and then destroy one of the two five minutes later? How does that affect personal identity?"
After that point, I looked at all the same stuff I had read and it looked completely different. It just seemed so obvious that there could not be any such thing as personal identity.
About compatibilism - I'm a firm non-compatibilist determinist. Again, this is something I can directly perceive, not something theoretical. There is no free will, since all decisions I make and all my intentions are the effects of earlier causes, not something I freely choose. Compatibilists just redefine free will to be decision making.
There's a great quote by Samuel Johnson on free will: "All theory is against freedom of the will; all experience for it.”
At a certain point, this stops being true, and all of a sudden your experience matches the theory and you see through the illusion of free will.
And yes, I really love your descriptions
J C:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Milo:
I second this. In english, emptiness has lots of baggage in the form of negative connotations that obscure what's meant in a dharma sense. It's bad enough that when people new to dharma teachings encounter the term they will often dismiss the whole project as nihilistic. For this reason I'm in favor of keeping with the pali terms or finding some better terminology like "not independently existent" or similar, even though that is fairly cumbersome.
Yup.
I’m thinking that it seems to resemble compatibilistic determinism much more than nihilism. I have also noticed similarities to what Derek Parfit talks about in On What Matters, at least in the first chapters that I have actually read.
It's interesting that you bring up both compatibilism and Parfit, since I've found both very relevant to awakening.
There was a point where the idea that I have some sort of personal identity just stopped making any sense. Before that point, I was obsessed with philosophy of personal identity, including Parfit - questions like "if you step into a duplicating machine, which copy are you? What if you make a copy and then destroy one of the two five minutes later? How does that affect personal identity?"
After that point, I looked at all the same stuff I had read and it looked completely different. It just seemed so obvious that there could not be any such thing as personal identity.
About compatibilism - I'm a firm non-compatibilist determinist. Again, this is something I can directly perceive, not something theoretical. There is no free will, since all decisions I make and all my intentions are the effects of earlier causes, not something I freely choose. Compatibilists just redefine free will to be decision making.
There's a great quote by Samuel Johnson on free will: "All theory is against freedom of the will; all experience for it.”
At a certain point, this stops being true, and all of a sudden your experience matches the theory and you see through the illusion of free will.
And yes, I really love your descriptions
Me too! And I recently realized that there is no I that will seize existing. That still scares the shit out of me, but I’m trying to get used to the idea.
Me too. It’s the only theory that makes any sense. Most people don’t seem to get it.
:-)
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I know that content is irrelevant, but is it okay to be amused by the attitudes of these voices and the travesty-like quality of the session? I can’t help but chuckling.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
When my cat sneezed there were discursive thoughts regarding how I should maybe call the veterinary and start him on that medication again. These thoughts were in English, oddly enough. It seems that this forum and other English-speaking feedback channels are the audience for my thoughts during meditation even though they concern mundane matters that I usually speak about in Swedish. The ”watcher” seems to be concerned about audiences.
I’m having weird dreams about doing people I would never normally do. I think parts of my unconscious have started to accept the idea of deconstructing my sense of self.
But, more serious: do more meditation, and more and more weird things will occur in your mind, including (and maybe especially) in your dreams. I remember one instance where I was on retreat and I would report those dreams to the teacher and he could hardly stop laughing.
So, what is a good approach to these things? Some traditions recommend ignoring it all to avoid the danger of getting distracted. Some people obsess over these things and get distracted. Maybe some people get obsessed with the bad stuff and start to blame themselves for being bad. That would probably not be the best approach.
My personal approach is to collect the coolest things to have nice stories to tell, and otherwise keeping a "I don't have clue what this means but probably nothing at all"-attitude.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I’m having weird dreams about doing things (and people... uhm...) I would never normally do. I think parts of my unconscious have started to accept the idea of deconstructing my sense of self. At least I hope that’s what they are doing.
Actually, the mind keeps changing all the time even in non-meditators, but the change is so slow (at least in adults) that we fail to notice. (Reading old diary entries makes the change obvious though.) Then it is easier to imagine a fixed sense of self.
Then we start to meditate and all kinds of things happen in the mind. We recall stuff we thought we had forgotten, we face inner demons we'd rather not, we find love and gratitude and tenderness and peace we didn't think we'd be capable of, we experience mysterious visions, we discover more and more facets of suffering. For better or for worse, we are forced to accept that our minds are capable (and willing) of more things than we expected.
This process can give us hope, since we glimpse what our minds can be capable of. It can terrify us because we glimpse what our minds can be capable of. Either way, it becomes hard to hold on to our fixed notions of what we thought we were.
I guess this is not the same as insight into anatta on a really detailed level, and it's not the same as seeing the sense of self being subject to the 3Cs.
It's on a more intellectual level, and I think it's rather unavoidable.
A side effect is that suddenly, judging other people seems rather pointless, at least if they're meditators, too.
They may be another person tomorrow, so why bother
Maybe you would also appreciate the humor in the fact that one of them was wearing a pink fury onepiece with ears and a tail (possibly the Pink Panther) to a formal dinner and nobody seemed to react. He was supposed to be some kind of professor or guru or something, and his manners were horrible.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Some sounds from one of my partners triggered emotional response: love. When I investigated it, it was hard to pinpoint it. Phenomenologically it seems to be a combination of things like standing on firm ground, being safe and happy, and a great motivator for skillful action and skillful balancing. It made me relaxed and active at the same time. It felt like soft cotton against my heart. There were elements of joy, bliss and a lot of compassion. It is the opposite of fear.
Love is such a beautiful emotion. Maybe the best of them all.
If you can't pinpoint it, then next time it arises have a look around in the subtle body.
curious:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Some sounds from one of my partners triggered emotional response: love. When I investigated it, it was hard to pinpoint it. Phenomenologically it seems to be a combination of things like standing on firm ground, being safe and happy, and a great motivator for skillful action and skillful balancing. It made me relaxed and active at the same time. It felt like soft cotton against my heart. There were elements of joy, bliss and a lot of compassion. It is the opposite of fear.
Love is such a beautiful emotion. Maybe the best of them all.
If you can't pinpoint it, then next time it arises have a look around in the subtle body. It’s an emotion that carries you and that drives creation and makes it all worth while. It’s not static, but a flow. It’s the curiosity that makes you want to keep going, and a connecting force. As such, it is transcendental. It is also the faith that enables you to let go and the trust that allows you to throw yourself out and know that you will be carried.
I got the intuitive feeling that love is what holds all ”creation” together, not in a static way, but dynamically (as an ongoing exploration), and not by force but because it finds joy in it.
Yay! Another fire kasina convert! ;)
yes, this practice can definitely shave an hour or 2 off your sleep and help with waking up clearly. I think we have some similar health issues (fibro/CFS stuff?). Kasina practice seems to really help with energy
yes, this practice can definitely shave an hour or 2 off your sleep and help with waking up clearly. I think we have some similar health issues (fibro/CFS stuff?). Kasina practice seems to really help with energy
Anna L:
Yay! Another fire kasina convert! ;)
yes, this practice can definitely shave an hour or 2 off your sleep and help with waking up clearly. I think we have some similar health issues (fibro/CFS stuff?). Kasina practice seems to really help with energy
yes, this practice can definitely shave an hour or 2 off your sleep and help with waking up clearly. I think we have some similar health issues (fibro/CFS stuff?). Kasina practice seems to really help with energy
Haha, yes, I knew that it would happen at some point.
Yes, something like that. Mostly food related, but also related to any form of physical exhaustion (with yoga as a wonderful exception) and probably also stress. Nobody knows what it is, but I think it’s the aftermath of chronic darknighting. Before I started my daily practice of meditation, I couldn’t even stand up while cooking, but had to lie down and rest. That was on September 20th 2018. Now I do yoga 3-6 times a week and standing up is no problem. I just need to avoid most foods and keep practising.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I was tripping and falling.
The guided Earth descent practice is all about tripping and falling, lying down on your back. You might enjoy it.
This is one of those links to possibly pick up at some point. If just to listen to Reggies soothing outher worldly voice.
Somatic Meditation for Discovering Our Deepest Life
https://www.shambhala.com/the-awakening-body/
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
[...]
It’s probably a good idea to focus on no self right now, because otherwise I might get too full of myself. We wouldn’t want that, would we?
It’s probably a good idea to focus on no self right now, because otherwise I might get too full of myself. We wouldn’t want that, would we?
I would want that. Please go be full of yourself. Enjoy!
OK, so here's a challenge:
Those 2 options are the only two ways of how to deal with this situation. There are no other ways. Do not even think about it.
- Go really be full of yourself. Drown in pride like you're getting paid for it. Turn it to 11.
- Have fun.
- Notice the 3Cs of being full of yourself and feeling pride. btw this includes "no self"
- Worry about being full of yourself.
- Spend time thinking about how to get rid of pride.
- Notice the 3Cs of worrying and thinking about pride and being full of yourself. btw this includes "no self"
Those 2 options are the only two ways of how to deal with this situation. There are no other ways. Do not even think about it.
How wonderful to see your practice coming along so nicely, Linda
I first remember getting into light versions of the formless realms (I forget the terminology, subjhanas of equanimity or something?) as a kid when exploring math concepts like infinity, zero, etc. Wasn't until not so long ago that I realized most people didn't learn math that way! No wonder they didn't like it as much as I did...
I first remember getting into light versions of the formless realms (I forget the terminology, subjhanas of equanimity or something?) as a kid when exploring math concepts like infinity, zero, etc. Wasn't until not so long ago that I realized most people didn't learn math that way! No wonder they didn't like it as much as I did...
Thankyou!That’s cool. I don’t think I ever had that kind of experience from Maths. I made stories about the digits instead. They all had different personalities. One could say that my approach to Maths was more Vajrayana than Shamatha.
However, I have come to realize that I wasn’t wrong in the beginning when I thought that I had accessed Jhanas as a child and teenager. Light versions, sure, but definitely Jhanic according to some standards. There seems to be a lot of debate on what qualifies as ”real” Jhana, but I’m not particularly interested in that. I just wanted to understand what it was that I was doing and make sense of it. For instance, I think I have spent time in the formless realms to heal when I have needed the rest from having to be responsive to a world that was overwhelming. That makes sense. I think I have done that a lot over the years.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
For instance, I think I have spent time in the formless realms to heal when I have needed the rest from having to be responsive to a world that was overwhelming. That makes sense. I think I have done that a lot over the years. Yes, I did the same thing from childhood--often resting in space so as to get a break from overwhelming sensations in the body. Thank goodness for that, or my ability to function in the world might never have developed. It was a healthy and much needed coping skill.
Later on, in more mature stages of practice, what became key for me was recognizing and letting go of subtle attachment to those states. And learning to rest peacefully in whatever painful/unpleasant sensations were present in the body without having to "escape" into the formless realms.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Dependent origination is the only option.
Hey Polly, great to see all the progress you are making. I'm not really here
but did just want to drop momentarily in to say ... watch out for the dharma karma.The more you make contact with fruitions, enjoy them, crave them, attach them to the concept of the self, and give in to urges and desires in pursuit of that attachment ... then the more there is the birth of self and future dukkha. That's not so bad when it comes to the dharma, but it can create problems later in accessing more advanced stages of knowledge and vision. So a little more spaciousness, a little more subtle emotional variation, a little more lightness, a little less applied and sustained thought - all these will help you to avoid burning in an unskilful clinging to fruitions. At the moment it looks like the fruitions are running you, rather than you running the fruitions.
To put it another way - can you see the three characteristics of the fruitions?
Much love
Malcolm
Oh hi Malcolm! *whispering* I won’t tell anyone I saw you. Your secret’s safe with me.
Actually, I have only had at a maximum 7 fruitions for all this time, so I don’t think there’s a need to worry about that just yet. Michael adviced me to try to get as many as possible, and others have as well, and I was a bit stressed out that I wasn’t doing enough of it for a while. But getting this one when I expected it the least - and from just being compassinate towards myself - got me to cool down in that respect. I don’t worry about it anymore (for now, lol).
This last fruition was significant for me. It helped to to put a lot in place. It also uncovered a lot of stuff, hence the racing mind. I think I’ll work with that stuff for a while and let it integrate. It laid bare new tensions too, but these are not as involved with compulsion. Rather, they seem to be about stress that I have built up slowly over the years, and I feel ready to work with that at a sensate level and let it go. I found that I could stop the mind racing by using more metta. It really is surprisingly powerful when the timing is right. I remembered the phrase ”I bow to the lord of compassion” from Tashi Nyimas dharma talks, and that phrase almost magically gives me peace. No need for fruitions to get peace.
I think the point of fruitions is purification. They are not an end in themselves, but a means.
So yes, I see the three C:s of them. Very clearly, actually. Still a phenomenology junky, though, and fascinated by the technicalities of them.
They are sooooooooo not me. The thought of attaching self to them is absurd. I’m glad I can see that now. Because yes, I can totally see how one cpuld get trapped in it in spite of it being absurd. I did crave them in a very selfconscious way. But when I describe a process where I’m not in charge, that’s not it. That’s trusting that the process knows the way and balances itself. It’s the opposite of getting caught up by craving.
Thanks for your compassion! ❤️
Your secret’s safe with me.Actually, I have only had at a maximum 7 fruitions for all this time, so I don’t think there’s a need to worry about that just yet. Michael adviced me to try to get as many as possible, and others have as well, and I was a bit stressed out that I wasn’t doing enough of it for a while. But getting this one when I expected it the least - and from just being compassinate towards myself - got me to cool down in that respect. I don’t worry about it anymore (for now, lol).
This last fruition was significant for me. It helped to to put a lot in place. It also uncovered a lot of stuff, hence the racing mind. I think I’ll work with that stuff for a while and let it integrate. It laid bare new tensions too, but these are not as involved with compulsion. Rather, they seem to be about stress that I have built up slowly over the years, and I feel ready to work with that at a sensate level and let it go. I found that I could stop the mind racing by using more metta. It really is surprisingly powerful when the timing is right. I remembered the phrase ”I bow to the lord of compassion” from Tashi Nyimas dharma talks, and that phrase almost magically gives me peace. No need for fruitions to get peace.
I think the point of fruitions is purification. They are not an end in themselves, but a means.
So yes, I see the three C:s of them. Very clearly, actually. Still a phenomenology junky, though, and fascinated by the technicalities of them.
They are sooooooooo not me. The thought of attaching self to them is absurd. I’m glad I can see that now. Because yes, I can totally see how one cpuld get trapped in it in spite of it being absurd. I did crave them in a very selfconscious way. But when I describe a process where I’m not in charge, that’s not it. That’s trusting that the process knows the way and balances itself. It’s the opposite of getting caught up by craving.
Thanks for your compassion! ❤️