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How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?

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How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Mathew Poskus 3/17/19 6:49 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Dexter Chamberlin 3/17/19 9:20 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Mathew Poskus 3/17/19 10:46 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/17/19 12:57 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Richard Zen 3/17/19 2:49 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Mathew Poskus 3/17/19 4:58 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Richard Zen 3/17/19 11:37 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility 3/18/19 11:13 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Richard Zen 3/18/19 1:23 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility 3/18/19 3:00 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Richard Zen 3/18/19 7:32 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility 3/19/19 3:35 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/19/19 4:21 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility 3/19/19 4:43 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/19/19 5:03 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Richard Zen 3/19/19 8:09 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/19/19 10:07 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Richard Zen 3/19/19 1:15 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility 3/19/19 1:13 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Richard Zen 3/19/19 1:17 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Nick O 3/22/19 5:04 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Richard Zen 4/19/19 2:47 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/27/19 7:23 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Richard Zen 4/19/19 2:32 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/21/19 9:40 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Richard Zen 4/21/19 11:20 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Mathew Poskus 3/19/19 12:48 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Richard Zen 3/19/19 1:18 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Chris Marti 3/19/19 2:41 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Chris Marti 3/20/19 8:52 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility 3/19/19 1:08 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Raving Rhubarb 3/27/19 7:03 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility 3/19/19 3:48 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Mathew Poskus 3/19/19 1:59 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility 3/19/19 4:08 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Anicca Dukkha Anatta 3/18/19 3:45 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility 3/18/19 10:26 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Mathew Poskus 3/18/19 10:51 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility 3/18/19 11:09 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? terry 3/19/19 12:33 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Mathew Poskus 3/19/19 2:09 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? terry 3/20/19 2:24 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/19/19 4:42 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? terry 3/20/19 1:58 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/20/19 2:09 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? terry 3/20/19 2:26 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/20/19 2:30 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Jordi 3/21/19 9:32 AM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/21/19 12:15 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? terry 3/21/19 1:14 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/21/19 3:04 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Jordi 3/21/19 3:18 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/21/19 3:40 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? terry 3/22/19 1:31 PM
RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/22/19 7:42 PM
Hello ,I wanted to ask how to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? I I have overactive empathy ,it's not helpfull for anyone at all ,I was born as a twin ,so I guess thats where my empathy comes from ,but I just soaked like a sponge other people emotions like anger ,sadness and etc. and I feel responsability for them ,I hardly can say no ,I end up with girl I really don't love ,doing thing I don't like to ,I feel to do other people needs to be sure they feel fine ,I just feel depressed ,exhausted ,burned out ,suicidal ,alot of stress ,without knowing what want ,low self-esteem ,. just soak misery ,sadness ,pain of other people .I often get manpulated by narcissists or sociopaths.  can't go like this .Please help.
Matthew

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/17/19 9:20 AM as a reply to Mathew Poskus.
There is a really excellent episode of the Deconstructing Yourself podcast with Roshi Joan Halifax that talks about this quite a bit. She explains a pneumonic that she uses when she is or is trying not get engaged too empathetically in a situation. The pnemonic is Grace: Gather your attention, Recalling your intention, Attending to yourself (physical and emotional experience- notice biases), Consider what will serve, Engage and End (which can also be to disengage).

I'm not sure if that is helpful to you but I would highly recommend you listen to the podcast because she goes into great depth about the very thing you are asking about.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/17/19 10:46 AM as a reply to Dexter Chamberlin.
Thanks!

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/17/19 12:57 PM as a reply to Mathew Poskus.
That sounds tough. I don’t know if this would work for you, but for me it has been helpful to think that children growing up need to see people take their own needs and boundaries seriously and learn that it is totally okay to do so. Otherwise they might end up unhappy. I wouldn’t want a world where everybody are so busy pleasing others that nobody is really happy.

I once heard a story about an old couple who shared a bread role every day. Both of them made sure that the other one got the best half. Both of them therefore ate the half that they didn’t like, convinced that they made their partner happy. If they had ever actually talked about their individual preferences they would have found out that they preferred different halves. That would have been win-win.

It is tough for somebody to learn that their feelings for you aren’t mutual, but that will pass, and then hopefully they meet somebody that actually love them back. And you might too, and make that person very happy.

Learning to take care of one’s own needs and boundaries may take time, and people around you may resist it because they are used to your current patterns, but it is so worth it. You may need somebody to talk to who can validate your feelings and remind you that your needs are important. A therapist or a reliable friend or a bunch of strangers on the internet who understand the process. It took a close relative several years to accept that I may need to finish a phone conversation with her before she wants it to finish. It was diffiicult for her to take in that she had actually pushed my boundaries for decades (with no ill intent; we just had different needs and I hadn’t been able to communicate my needs). Some people may not like the ”new you”, but you may get to know others who love you just the way you are. It is easier for the right people (those whose needs are compatible to your needs) to find you if you show what you need. Maybe you don’t know right away what you need, what you want and what your boundaries are. It may take some time for you to get used to listening to yourself too. It is okay to hesitate and do some trial and error or just taking your time. Nobody has the right to pressure you. Your feelings are important.

If saying no is difficult, maybe say that you need to think about it. Then talk to somebody who can support you in standing up for your needs before getting back with an answer.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/17/19 2:49 PM as a reply to Mathew Poskus.
I'm the same way. I had to accept that Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation that we are FEEDING is the right one. Try to be in the body more and consistently feed there so you can create a new habit.

Emotional Feeding

https://youtu.be/EDgyAPyTM-0

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/17/19 4:58 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Thanks .Feeding on the breath meaning being aware all the time off the breath of cushion ? Is it possible ? Or a formal meditation ?( Wich I do and it helps)

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/17/19 11:37 PM as a reply to Mathew Poskus.
Mathew Poskus:
Thanks .Feeding on the breath meaning being aware all the time off the breath of cushion ? Is it possible ? Or a formal meditation ?( Wich I do and it helps)
  • Really scan your entire body and mind movements (attention span moving) etc, and relax what stress is optional. You can do this all day, and anywhere. You can't eliminate all stress, but you can reduce more and more optional stress. Some stress is needed when having to deal with challenging people, but it's better to have the energy for it. Most people just numb it with substances or entertainment.
  • Relish and emotionally feed on any dropping of pain, and any pleasure that arises.
  • Take that nice feeling of "I'm going to meditate" and apply it to anything in your life (including people). Eckhart Tolle responds often to same kinds of questions about people and projects. He responds the same way that we should make "this" or "that" into a spiritual practice. That means you read books on people skills and you use meditation to practice them. There are people who have no problem in dealing with people because they have those skills as a habit. Sprituality should be practical and not limited to rituals.
  • If you have a lot of strong anger then use it to get projects done that make you more independent of people.
  • Compare a peaceful mind to an excited one and notice how the mind will gradually incline towards peace instead of excitement. It gets a taste for it with consistent practice.
  • Eliminate as many toxic people from your life as possible. If they have Cluster B personality disorders, they are not likely to change. 
The practice won't give you instant results because we are habitual animals. The practice slowly changes your habits so you don't ruminate as much over the years. In the meantime enjoy yourself with as much free time as is available.

Eventually you realize that the mind is constantly desiring to go outside, go do something, go do this or that. Some of these things are good, but unless your "going to do something" is moderate exercise, healthy diet and healthy relationships, then it's probably better to enjoy the breath instead. 

Have fun!

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/18/19 3:45 AM as a reply to Mathew Poskus.
I have have had similar tendencies since childhood. I have recently realized ( Meditation practice has helped ) that I did not feel good / worthy enough. Somehow I needed to be very kind to be others to even feel ok about myself. I have tried to forgive others but mostly myself for not being kind to self. It is helping a bit. Even before this realization Metta practice was helpful since conscious intention of Loving Kindness was directed towards Self. I still struggle with boundaries, but slowly healing. May you find Healing and Peace.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/18/19 10:26 AM as a reply to Mathew Poskus.
Matthew this sounds like co-dependency.  When we run to fix someone we rob them of the chance and autonomy of fixing themselves and everyone will eventually.  You are not responsible for anything other than yourself, step away from the judging to - when we judge one as less i.e *narcisistic or psychopathic* we elivate ourselves as better.  

Empathy is a wonderful quality when used to empower self and others.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/18/19 10:51 AM as a reply to deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility.
Yeah good points thanks ,I dont want to look like a victim ,but yeah I Am I Am ,but Im of my mind habits ,thanks.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/18/19 11:09 AM as a reply to Mathew Poskus.
It's that old saying:   'When the plane is going down you gotta get the oxygen mask on yourself first.'   And if you go around putting everyone elses masks on for them how will they ever know whether they would have had the strength to do it for themselves.  And sometimes we think people are asking for help when in fact they aren't at all - its all perception after all.     

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/18/19 11:13 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Just a point about Cluster B PD - can we please not start spreading inaccuracate and stigmatising information about treatment outcomes from mental health disorders.  Cluster B's are very treatable disorders - and are just that *disorders* so required compassion not stigmatisation.  

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/18/19 1:23 PM as a reply to deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility.
nickol lindsay:
Just a point about Cluster B PD - can we please not start spreading inaccuracate and stigmatising information about treatment outcomes from mental health disorders.  Cluster B's are very treatable disorders - and are just that *disorders* so required compassion not stigmatisation.  

They are not as treatable as you think they are. At best they act in healthy ways because of fear of punishment, hence their Jekyll and Hyde. This is why psychologists with any morality tell victims of Cluster B disorders to get away from them. There are lots of examples in recovery forums for people to try and "love" their abusers for decades destroying their sense of self and their mental health.

Narcissism is also on the rise, which shows that a lot of it is cultural and we are not doing a good job of it. I never tell victims that it's stigmatizing precisely because I'll be sending them back to abusers. We need more awareness of their tactics to prevent people from getting caught and destroying their lives. You can't get around that one unless there is a cure, and there is no cure, and it's not even on the horizon.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/18/19 3:00 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Okay, there is a really profound danger in labelling ALL patients who happen to have Cluster B Personality Disorders as in anyway dangerous.  All of the PD are founded in trauma *largely* and the most common of the BPD is extremely treatable through DBT.  In fact the Clinician who invented the treatment has BPD herself.  People with PD are not defined by their disorder, it is not who they are and there is a real danger in promoting this view.  As for the Jackyll and Hyde this is fiction not reality - no person is split into all bad and all good - disordered or otherwise.

I believe there has been a rise on the internet 'Pop' Psychology and Clinicians who should know better using words  like narcissism and psycho interchanagably and in a way that has no relation to the DSM V criteria for mental health disorders.  This risks stigmatising those few who really do suffer from Cluster B's from been open about their difficulties and seeking help for them.

It is not the place of a Psychologist/Therapist/Psychiatrist to tell patients what to do in regards to dating/marrying etc an individual who has a Personality Disorder and it would be unethical and discriminatroy for them to do so on this basis alone.  

I just feel that a Dharma Group  isn't the place to be stigmatising people *not that there is or should be a place there shouldnt't* who suffer from mental illness, as if its in the DSM V thats exactly what it is.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/18/19 7:32 PM as a reply to deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility.
These are disorders that cause CPTSD in victims and the correct advise for suffering patients (ususally empaths that are too nice) is to go no contact. Who cares if it's stigmatizing? If they don't get out, nothing will change, and their mental health with get worse. Judging people and sending them to jail can be stigmatizing too, but it's necessary.  The rise of "pop psychology" has done ENORMOUS help in teaching people how the cycle of abuse works. There are numerous victims out there. A lot of Cluster Bs are abused, but many are spoiled. They have a conscience impairment so I will continue to tell people to stay away from people who use rewards to make people tolerate accelerating punishments. It's not good for them and it will sap their sense of self, creativity and happiness. It's intermittent reinforcement. I've gone through that abuse and know how it works inside and out.

It doesn't help that I've talked to anti-bullying psychologists and they say that Psychology and Social Work is full of these bullies, and all the professions have this problem. Most don't seek treatment so when I tell people to drop toxic people from their lives it really is the most moral thing to do for oneself and it's up to the abuser to seek treatment. They are more likely to seek treatment when people stand up for themselves and threaten divorce and abandonment. That's often when they get help. This comes not just from pop psychology but also psychologists who specialize in these disorders.

DBT hasn't cured BPD. Just like new therapies for NPD haven't cured NPD. At best prognosis is improved behaviours, but many people simply gaslight and seek out low self-esteem codependents that are used to the cycle of abuse. Some of them mimic being a victim so they can enter codependent groups to find more victims. Then you have the problem of undiagnosed people who run from psychologists like the plague. Most of us will bump into them than the ones who have been treated.

The irony is experts like Sam Vaknin (an NPD level 9) has new therapies that actually try to recreate the abuse to expose the defense mechanisms. They actually try to get NPDs to cry, because if you don't get any empathy in the body, not just cognitive empathy, it's a waste of time. It's still early on with his method and since he can't cure himself it's debatable when people have good masks. His wife admits she's a codependent and was groomed from a family of narcissists and a perfect fit for Sam.

Narcissism/ Coercive Control Documentary (6:52)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA56MBj4m5Y

We should still treat all disorders and I do have compassion from a distance, but I will not marry a BPD or NPD type (diagnosis or behaviour I see). The risk to my sanity is too high. I see what victims go through and it's horrendous. For example try and divorce a Cluster B personality disorder! It's hell on earth, plus the stalking and possible abuse of children. I really wish there was a cure, but until then empaths, BEWARE! Take care of yourself and watch for love bombing behaviour to try and hook you. Nobody is entitled to your time and emotions. It's not stigma to have boundaries and standards! It shouldn't be considered stigma, and dharma groups definitely are good places to talk about this especially with books published like Saints and Psychopaths that show the damage of being unaware of the cycle of abuse. Compassionate Buddhist types can also be targeted and have codependent traits. Spiritual bypassing, spending time around religious leaders and gurus have shown to be a good target area for predators.

I will never stop being an activist against emotional abuse until there's an actual cure. Most empathic people would celebrate a cure, but often their empathic ways trigger abusers like ringing the dinner bell. It was the hardest lesson I had to learn. Some people don't deserve and are not entitled to your empathy.

Trust me, people are looking for cures everywhere. 

Can Trauma-Informed Therapy Cure Narcissists?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqbkK_h3Bz4&t=2s

Can Malignant Narcissists Change? Do They Come From Trauma?

https://youtu.be/DnxNekkZmf4

At minimum a person with the diagnosis needs to let people know that they are diagnosed before marriage so people can make an informed decision. Hiding it is a problem. If that person fears abandonment, WELL!, what is that? LOL!

I'm a recovering co-dependent and I want people to know that, and if some people don't like it, I'm not entitled to their emotions, money, resources and networks. It's my responsibility to improve myself. If I'm alone, that's okay, because I have a self and I can entertain myself.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/19/19 12:33 AM as a reply to Mathew Poskus.
Mathew Poskus:
Hello ,I wanted to ask how to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ? I I have overactive empathy ,it's not helpfull for anyone at all ,I was born as a twin ,so I guess thats where my empathy comes from ,but I just soaked like a sponge other people emotions like anger ,sadness and etc. and I feel responsability for them ,I hardly can say no ,I end up with girl I really don't love ,doing thing I don't like to ,I feel to do other people needs to be sure they feel fine ,I just feel depressed ,exhausted ,burned out ,suicidal ,alot of stress ,without knowing what want ,low self-esteem ,. just soak misery ,sadness ,pain of other people .I often get manpulated by narcissists or sociopaths.  can't go like this .Please help.
Matthew


aloha matthew,

   Empathy is a gift, like intelligence, or beauty. Embrace it; learn to love it, accept it as your nature. At least we know what we are.

   Suffering is the human condition, this is the first noble truth. Embrace your suffering, don't expect to be happy. Don't pile misery upon misery, dissatisfaction upon dissatisfaction. We used to call it, "feeling bad about feeling bad" back in the old commune days. "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Don't dwell in negativity.

   Two options for improving the situation: first, try and find cheerful people to hang out with; second, learn to find joy in being alone, peaceful and quiet. Look at the universe empathetically and the universe will look empathetically back.

love, terry


    
MUCH MADNESS IS DIVINEST SENSE
BY EMILY DICKINSON

Much Madness is divinest Sense -
To a discerning Eye -
Much Sense - the starkest Madness -
’Tis the Majority
In this, as all, prevail -
Assent - and you are sane -
Demur - you’re straightway dangerous -
And handled with a Chain -

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/19/19 1:59 AM as a reply to deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility.
Well Richard told you what I wanted to tell you ,sociopathic type people suffering yeah right ,do you met annyone with sociopathic type well I met ,I know guys with cluster B for years and years , ,their suffering ?! From what ?Their happy people they dont suffer from sickness thats bullshit ,their really happy and most of the time narcissist are highly succesfull and psychopaths ,their not deppresed or anything. Their enjoying themselves at fullest .And everybody seems to like them .
And there is people without empathy who dont behave bad I know personally not one they just know loggicaly whats bads whats good ,apart from their emotional numbness their not bad people at all friendly and helpful so there is no tlike these bad these good it various depends ,lack of empathy doesnt mean your bad .It DEPENDS .

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/19/19 2:09 AM as a reply to terry.
Thanks ,but I suffered enough of overactive empathy should i try to change something? or accept suicide and deppression as a gift of universe ,just soaking other people pain ,be alone ,suicidal ,can't interact with people and drop on my knees thank to you universe for this gift wich lead me to suicide ,loneliness ,deppression and just accept it ?
How do you accepts these things (in case u know what ur talking about)  ?!
Thats all? I just self destroy myself drown in misery suicide and just go and thank to universe and accept it ? 
And do you suffer from overreactive empathy ?
And whats is that makes gift absorbing everybodys emotions? What is good for ?

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/19/19 3:35 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Hi Richard,

I am sorry that you have suffered co-dependency but I think labelling and stigmatising ALL people with Clusters B as the same, i.e:  anti-social personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality and histrionic personality is extremely damaging.  

The founder of DBT Martha Linhehan had BPD herself - she is an eminent professor of psychology, not the waste of space you seem to suggest people with Cluster B's are.  Your information is dervived from dubious sources i.e not peer reviewed academic journals but youtube videos. There are also plenty of other treatments that are empirically tested for personality disorders and as not all personality disorders are the same the treatments are quite different.

BPD and CPTSD (not yet an official condition actually) are often confused as the symtoms are very similar which has led to rethink about BPD as trauma based disorder.  

Also your insistence that people can't change is very damaging.

Sometimes people just treat others like shit - thats it - there isnt a need to attach a Psychiatric label to perpetrators and maybe in doing so it is simply because some of feel safer pathologising shit behaviour.  Some perfectly psychologically sound people do shit things and some people with clusters b's make huge contributions to society.  Life messy and not everything has a box, in fact, quite possibly nothing does; thats the scary point.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/19/19 3:48 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard,

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KiihIE0d0c

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/19/19 4:08 AM as a reply to Mathew Poskus.
Matthew,  You are clearly in a lot of pain.  I am just pointing out the dangers of playing arm chair psychologist with people and risk demonising an already vulnerable group i.e *everyone with a cluster b - pd*.  The disorders in are all very different and those with BPD have been shown to have higher empathy than the so called 'normal' population.  

As I pointed out to Richard sometimes some people do awful things; that's it!    

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/19/19 4:21 AM as a reply to deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility.
I agree with Nickol that there is a danger in stigmatizing all people with cluster B type disorders. At the same time I agree with Richard that it is a good idea to avoid contact with people who abuse you and where the dynamics are toxic. There is no contradiction in that.

I know a woman who has had a BPD diagnosis but who now meets none of the criteria. She is one of the wisest persons I know, and she is very loved by one of my best friends. I also know a high functioning sociopath who informs people of his diagnosis and asks them to tell him when he’s out of line in case he doesn’t notice it himself, and he’s a good person. Not always smooth, but means well and cares about ethics and justice and stands up for people who are treated badly. He has a loving relationship and is an incredible partner to a friend of mine. I also know several people who have been abused by someone who probably meets the diagnostic criteria of narcissistic personality disorders. Those abusive persons did not want to see themselves clearly enough to work with it in therapy. At least two of them had challenging childhoods that probably contributed a lot. That is of course no reason for staying in an abusive relationship with them. When people treat you in a harmful way, you need to leave them - irrespective of whether or not they have a diagnosis.

I do believe that abusive people suffer from their own behavior, but they may never admit it. I think they are in denial because they can’t handle it. Cultural storlylines about how inherently evil and beyond help they are won’t make it easier for them to face their problems. I would never blame a victim of abuse for hating their abusers, though.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/19/19 4:42 AM as a reply to Mathew Poskus.
It may be a good idea to remind yourself that empathy and sympathy are not the same thing.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/19/19 4:43 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda,  I absolutely advocate leaving anyone who is abusive *diagnosis shouldnt factor into this*.  What I believe is damaging is for the person who has suffered abuse to diagnose the abuser and spread misinformation about the disorders and hence damage the actual 'real' people suffering from mental health issues.

The problem comes from 'pop' psychology on youtube, they sensationalise menal health in order to get views and money from advertising - very damaging!  

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/19/19 5:03 AM as a reply to deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility.
nickol lindsay:
Linda,  I absolutely advocate leaving anyone who is abusive *diagnosis shouldnt factor into this*.

I understood that you meant that and I agree.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/19/19 8:09 AM as a reply to deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility.
This is where these discussions started. We should leave abusive people. Abuse has certain patterns and people should be aware of them. That may interfere with the emotional food of abusers (sadism), but that's exactly what I want to do. I absolutely love what YouTube has done to expose the techniques abusers use. It's often the only place where people get this information. What Linda talks about is extremely rare and very positive. Most people are not seeing those results. Like Matthew says, many Cluster B's enjoy their behaviour, know right from wrong (hence the private behaviour vs. public mask).

I feel no shame in letting people know what Cluster B's do in their tactics of power and control on people. This is the main value of YouTube channels on Cluster B abuse. Awareness means they often have to change their tactics or stop. So many people are not getting treatment, have no intention of getting treatment and so the only course is to expose their behaviours so that they are forced into therapy. I really think they have the upper hand in society, gaslight and scapegoat people by manipulating power and leverage in workplaces and relationships. Hence the divorce rate. This is unaccepable in a so called modern society. The reality is that many will not own up to their behaviours until their self-interest is severely hit. Many of them sadistically laugh and enjoy their abuse. It's called Duping Delight. They love duping lawyers, psychologists and other politically correct professionals.

Many also use empathy of victims to shame them for their attempts at holding them accountable. Many Cluster B's actually lie to therapists and game the system. This is even in the book Psychopathy and the Law. Many are EXCELLENT liars and that just damages victims more. Victims often experience secondary gaslighting when professionals, friends, and co-workers don't believe what they are going through. They are often isolated for years.

So my advice to people (Buddhist or not) is to be wary of people who tell you want you want to hear, and those who do progressive breaches of your boundaries. If you are unaware of boundaries and what healthy ones are, many people don't know, then read as much as possible about them. Be especially wary of any needs or wants that you have that tether you to people who exploit them. Be as independent with your money as you can. Working multiple small jobs makes it hard for employers to threaten your job if it's not the only one you have. Putting boundaries early enough in relationships is a great test to see if they ghost you.

In my experience, volunteering at a distress line, there were many staff members doing sexual harrassment, bullying, and smear campaigning. Mental health is full of Cluster B's. Unacceptable! One really bad one was going to spend $100,000 on a Masters at Adler School. Unbelievable! If she wasn't a Narcissist, she would be a Psychopath! I've talked to psychologists including students like Shahida. They are aware of Professional Cluster B's. The good psychologists often have to fix patients who are damaged by other psychologists.

I remember one guy who said he had BPD but was "cured". He had psychological problems with sexual identity. "I thought I was gay, but I'm not." Then later he proceeded to hit on me. There are actual credentialled psychologists that are claiming cures where there are none. All it is is better managment behaviours at best. That's great and all, but empathic people need to have strong boundaries. Their traits of being nice are actual targets for abusers, and abusers admit that. Some Anti Social Personality Disordered types admit to psychologists that they think people with weak boundaries deserve the abuse.

Here's a video on the problem of stigma, but at the same time they are warning people to prevent new victimizations. The psychologist that treats Cluster B's has to be as positive as possible even if the prognosis is low, but they must also warn people of abusive patterns so people can recognize them. Great interview:

Psychopath Vs. Sociopath

https://youtu.be/MPZb7rtG7LI

No I'm skeptical about cures and will maintain boundaries. Lots of people are sub-clinical and are highly dangerous. Meditation is good to help people with stress, but using proper boundaries and healthy anger doesn't have to replace the practice, and the brain actually responds with healthy self-love you can feel in your body when you do good things for yourself, and choose not to tolerate abuse. A lot of people actually need the boundaries precisely because their brain can't control the impulses.

For those people who are diagnosed and admit their diagnosis with others, good for you! If you are able to maintain good relationships, I'm sure some of them can, then you are a good example. No guarantees of course that the person we are with is following it. We have to take care of ourselves.

So Matthew, don't dwell on suicidal thoughts. Talk to distress lines to deescalate, and focus on doing good and healthy things for yourself and learn about boundaries. Other people's emotions are their own and you are entitled to breathe in healthy ways that help you to regulate your emotions. That's what we are doing. Using non-toxic methods of emotional regulation. Other people, sex, food, drugs, suicide and alcohol are inferior modes of emotional regulation.

Good luck on your practice!

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/19/19 10:07 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
I remember one guy who said he had BPD but was "cured". He had psychological problems with sexual identity. "I thought I was gay, but I'm not." Then later he proceeded to hit on me

What does being gay have to do with this? Being gay is not a psychological problem. Hitting on somebody per se is not abusive either, unless it is in a context of dependency or if it’s done in a harrassing manner.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/19/19 12:48 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Thanks ,Richard. 

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/19/19 1:15 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I remember one guy who said he had BPD but was "cured". He had psychological problems with sexual identity. "I thought I was gay, but I'm not." Then later he proceeded to hit on me

What does being gay have to do with this? Being gay is not a psychological problem. Hitting on somebody per se is not abusive either, unless it is in a context of dependency or if it’s done in a harrassing manner.


Sexual identity problems do connect with BPD. I'm not against anyone being gay, but when your psychologist teaches you that you aren't and that your BPD is cured, and then the guy hits on you, then that's a problem with the psychologist. Lots of people don't know what their orientation is because they have sex addiction or childhood issues with sex abuse. It's very common. It's not a problem with being gay. I say if someone is authentically that way it's healthier for them to live that way and be accepted in society, but if people have addiction problems they may act sexually in ways that are not authentic and related to love. The movie Shame actually explored that very well like they studied the psychology. I think most people are on a bisexual gradient that is very personal to themselves. I'm probably a Kinsey 1 or 2 on the scale, and that is an old scale. There is probably a more refined gradient than that for people. Sexuality can also be affected by the person of interest, (if they are interesting, successful, fit, and / or have masculine or feminine qualities that others of the same sex don't have). 

Anyways I'm going to study sexual orientation in further detail as that interests me very much. There's a lot of complexity and variety in the subject and there's a lot of political misinformation from both the left and the right. There is so much nuance, especially in the area of bisexuality. It will be good to advance my knowledge beyond bigotry (conversion therapy) or political correctness (hard identities that are more conceptual than real).

Margaret Paul talks about it in Healing Your Aloneness.

Sex Addiction as Affect Dysregulation:

People often have to let go of the addiction first to uncover what makes them feel love and happiness. Addiction masks it, and can mask their true identity, where their happiness is.
 
https://www.amazon.com/Addiction-Affect-Dysregulation-Neurobiologically-Interpersonal-ebook/dp/B0170HMJXQ/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?keywords=sex+addiction+and+emotional+dysregulation&qid=1553019009&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmr0

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/19/19 1:08 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard your reply is actually not welcome, it is full of hate and I would ask you to kindly refrain from hateful speech.  Metta to all sentient beings *without exception*...

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/19/19 1:13 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
This is ALL so offensive to the mental health community and the LGBTQ community.  

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/19/19 1:17 PM as a reply to deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility.
nickol lindsay:
This is ALL so offensive to the mental health community and the LGBTQ community.  


I'm done talking to you because none of my posts are that way. People like to take offense where there is none as a form of gaining power.  The mental health community is who I consulted in all the above posts. It's not healthy to put a "community" on a pedestal, nor is it scientific. That's why it will be fun to do the actual research instead of being political. emoticon 

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/19/19 1:18 PM as a reply to Mathew Poskus.
Mathew Poskus:
Thanks ,Richard. 


No problem! Take care!

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/19/19 2:41 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
I'm locking this thread so folks have some time cool down a bit.

Chris Marti
DhO Moderator

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/20/19 8:52 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I've unlocked this thread, too. It's once again open for business.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/20/19 1:58 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
It may be a good idea to remind yourself that empathy and sympathy are not the same thing.


aloha polly,

    I don't disagree but it might be interesting to see how you define them.

   What is empathy? What is sympathy?

   And, why should we not maximize these values in our lives?

terry




THE JOY OF FISHES
(chuang tzu, trans merton)


Chuang Tzu and Hui Tzu
Were crossing Hao river
By the dam.

Chuang said:
"See how free
The fishes leap and dart:
That is their happiness."

Hui replied:
"Since you are not a fish
How do you know
What makes fishes happy?"

Chuang said:
"Since you are not I
How can you possibly know
That I do not know
What makes fishes happy?"

Hui argued:
"If I, not being you,
Cannot know what you know
It follows that you
Not being a fish
Cannot know what they know."

Chuang said:
"Wait a minute!
Let us get back
To the original question.
·what you asked me was
'How do you know
What makes fishes happy?'
From the terms of your question
You evidently know I know
What makes fishes happy.

"I know the joy of fishes
In the river
Through my own joy, as I go walking
Along the same river."

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/20/19 2:09 PM as a reply to terry.
One can use empathy to understand what karmic formations led a person to act in a certain way. That is not the same thing as liking the actions, which would be sympathy.

I didn’t say anything about whether or not to maximize anything. I merely pointed out a distinction. Do with it whatever you like.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/20/19 2:24 PM as a reply to Mathew Poskus.
Mathew Poskus:
Thanks ,but I suffered enough of overactive empathy should i try to change something? or accept suicide and deppression as a gift of universe ,just soaking other people pain ,be alone ,suicidal ,can't interact with people and drop on my knees thank to you universe for this gift wich lead me to suicide ,loneliness ,deppression and just accept it ?
How do you accepts these things (in case u know what ur talking about)  ?!
Thats all? I just self destroy myself drown in misery suicide and just go and thank to universe and accept it ? 
And do you suffer from overreactive empathy ?
And whats is that makes gift absorbing everybodys emotions? What is good for ?


aloha matthew,

   What is sight good for, or hearing? Yes I suffer from empathy; I also suffer from intelligence and beauty. Also "the five dusts" (the senses). All of these gifts are two-edged; they can destroy us as well as enhance our lives and those of others.

   I understand you have a real problem coping with this "gift." You can destroy your gifts with drugs, that is a common option. You can attempt to wrest sympathy from people for your "problem," that may provide temporary relief.

   If you are in a negative mood, nothing I say will help and by your rejection of sound insights you do yourself more damage. So, just once more: accept yourself, seek cheerful company, and enjoy the peace and quiet of isolation and undisturbed natural environments. Beyond this, try to suffer along with the rest of us in dignity and grace. What choices do you have, my friend? The gun, the rope? Obviously bad ends. Turn away from negativity and seek the light. Find love in your own depths, in the Heart's Desire.


terry


Kow Kow Calqulator
Steve Miller Band

Kow kow calqulator
Was a very smooth operator
Had himself a pet alligator
Kept it in a chrome elevator, yeah
When the sun began to shine
The alligator come outside
Kow kow played the chimes
Together they would go for a ride
As they travelled with a heavy load
They came across a dead horse at the side of the road
With two generals standing at each end
Fighting over whose fault it had been
And all that's left was this war
And they couldn't get things back together like they were before
Well, listen
Turn on your love light
Turn it on, let it shine
Inside your heart
Let it shine, turn it on
Your love light
Turn it on
Turn it on
Let it shine
Inside your mind
So many times kow kow had heard it said before
Oh, don't, lord, don't go near that door
The cause of our evil you'll uncover
Because of our misery you discover
Well, misery seeks it's own company
Kow kow had heard it said
Now he sits there crying
Oh, with his hands across his head
Kow kow calqulator
Oh, a very smooth operator
Get back in your elevator
Kow kow calqulator
Turn on your love light
Oh, oh, oh, oh
Let it shine

Songwriters: Steve Miller

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/20/19 2:26 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
One can use empathy to understand what karmic formations led a person to act in a certain way. That is not the same thing as liking the actions, which would be sympathy.

I didn’t say anything about whether or not to maximize anything. I merely pointed out a distinction. Do with it whatever you like.


ok

I empathize with your distinction...

t

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/20/19 2:30 PM as a reply to terry.
Yeah, and I empathize with your comment. emoticon

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/21/19 9:32 AM as a reply to Mathew Poskus.
Hi Mathew.

For me what work best in this topic is have very clear what I want and what I dont want in my life. What Im going to allow or not. Trying to really know myself. Learning to say no to diferent person and situations. Connecting with my own anger and learn to express it in assertive way or not, depending on the situation. Making solid boundaries that protect me to unwanted people etc. 

It's more like a psychological approach that works to undrestand the self and try to make the most healthiest version of yourself ( you can choose what you want to be!! ). As everything in this life takes time and is more like trial and error.

By doing you adapt yourself like "ok, this happen this time, next time I will be awere an this dont gonna happen again."
Maybe next time still happens but you are more awere of the process and also you can do some action to stop the "invasion" or retain yourself to indulge someone.

Is good to have a notebook and write it down what you feel, write your wants/not wants, what you allow and not allow, and track your process etc. Also pyschotherapy or a really good friend that can really listen can help a lot! Find a good one!

In a meditation approach...

Metta can help a lot in this process, try to be kind on yourself when you try to do this changes in your life. Also try to feel the kindess of the breath, that is smooth and calm you down. 

Work on feel love inside you
Work on feel compasion inside you
Work on feel a feeling of security on you
Work on feel a feeling of worth and value on you
Work on feel some kind of trust and faith ( high power ) that everything gona be allright on you

At frist you try to evoke this sensations/concepts and probably you will feel something very thinny or nothing, also some thoughts telling you that what you are doing is just bullshit, just keep going with your intention in very kind and easy way, this is powerfull stuff.



edit :
Thanks ,but I suffered enough of overactive empathy should i try to change something? or accept suicide and deppression as a gift of universe ,just soaking other people pain ,be alone ,suicidal ,can't interact with people and drop on my knees thank to you universe for this gift wich lead me to suicide ,loneliness ,deppression and just accept it ?
How do you accepts these things (in case u know what ur talking about)  ?!
Thats all? I just self destroy myself drown in misery suicide and just go and thank to universe and accept it ? 
And do you suffer from overreactive empathy ?
And whats is that makes gift absorbing everybodys emotions? What is good for ?


when there is the realitzation of no-self insde one you can see yourself at distance and not being triggered with aversion for what are you experiencing instead you can observe all this suffering and pain with the eyes of compasion and love. So I encourage you start have empathy for yourself insted for others ;) !. This is a very powerfull gift. Is light in the dark.

If you really open to feel all this emotions and sensations without judgment and aversion, just feel it deeply with kindness... very open to feel that suffer then something magic happens, they transmutate and integrate in yourself. Is like a strong refreshment that happens in the body, you can feel really cold after that, or feel very big that you are more than you etc... I dont know if this happens to everyone but at least happen to me sometimes.

The hard part is to humble open to these sensation emotions and letting go unconscious control.. usually we will run away using some kind of addiction or behavior or rationalitzation. Not easy but worht.

Well that's what worked for me, maybe works for you, if not find your own way! emoticon

Hope this help, big hug and have fun! emoticonemoticon

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/21/19 12:15 PM as a reply to Jordi.
I think that is excellent advice, Jordi. I have similar experiences, and it really changes one’s life.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/21/19 1:14 PM as a reply to Jordi.
Jordi:
Hi Mathew.

For me what work best in this topic is have very clear what I want and what I dont want in my life. What Im going to allow or not. Trying to really know myself. Learning to say no to diferent person and situations. Connecting with my own anger and learn to express it in assertive way or not, depending on the situation. Making solid boundaries that protect me to unwanted people etc. 


snip


aloha jordi,

   "Unwanted people." 

   "Solid boundaries that protect me."

   "Connecting with my own anger and learning to express it...."

   To a genuine empath these ideas are anathema. The empathic "self" is a nexus, a basket of collective human emotions. All we know is harmony or disharmony. All we know is love.

   There is no difference between empathy and sympathy. Therein lies the difficulty.

terry

    

You left me
(emily dickinson)

You left me, sweet, two legacies,—  
A legacy of love  
A Heavenly Father would content,  
Had He the offer of;  
   
You left me boundaries of pain          
Capacious as the sea,  
Between eternity and time,  
Your consciousness and me.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/21/19 3:04 PM as a reply to terry.
The thing is, compassion transcends the distinction. But the distinction is still valid, unless of course one is too privileged to be bothered with it since others do the work.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/21/19 3:18 PM as a reply to terry.
hey terry thanks for you replay

I understand your point of view, but "genuine empathy" can be very tricky and sometimes is a way to hide what is really happening Is more easy to feel "genuine empathy" and do nothing avoiding to face some event/person.

You can have the right to say that someone is unwanted in your life and put a boundarie and also feel some degree of empathy for that person. There is no need to hate or have aversion to someone for not wanting in your life. 

At least for me I'm not looking to be a buddha or a saint, I recongize my imperfect human nature and genuine empathy is something really hard to achive. If is enough work accept and love myself imagine acept and love someone that is trying to trick or hurt you.

Usually I only post when something resonates me and I can speak for my limited expierence. What I exposed are practical approaches that works more on a pyschological level where there is a self with their emotions and struggles. I think Mathew was looking how to deal with his
sensitivity towards others and looking for practical adivces...so set up boundaries is very good frist step!

have a good day!

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/21/19 3:40 PM as a reply to Jordi.
I think not allowing oneself any boundaries is the recipe for a pipe-dream that will blow up, quite frankly, and that explosion risks harming other sentient beings as well.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/22/19 1:31 PM as a reply to Jordi.
Jordi:
hey terry thanks for you replay

I understand your point of view, but "genuine empathy" can be very tricky and sometimes is a way to hide what is really happening Is more easy to feel "genuine empathy" and do nothing avoiding to face some event/person.

You can have the right to say that someone is unwanted in your life and put a boundarie and also feel some degree of empathy for that person. There is no need to hate or have aversion to someone for not wanting in your life. 

At least for me I'm not looking to be a buddha or a saint, I recongize my imperfect human nature and genuine empathy is something really hard to achive. If is enough work accept and love myself imagine acept and love someone that is trying to trick or hurt you.

Usually I only post when something resonates me and I can speak for my limited expierence. What I exposed are practical approaches that works more on a pyschological level where there is a self with their emotions and struggles. I think Mathew was looking how to deal with his
sensitivity towards others and looking for practical adivces...so set up boundaries is very good frist step!

have a good day!

aloha jordi,

   Some people are empaths whether they will or no. Boundaries are not an option for us. 

   Thanks for posting; I appreciate your point of view.

   Every day is a good day.

terry

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/22/19 5:04 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:
nickol lindsay:
This is ALL so offensive to the mental health community and the LGBTQ community.  


I'm done talking to you because none of my posts are that way. People like to take offense where there is none as a form of gaining power.  The mental health community is who I consulted in all the above posts. It's not healthy to put a "community" on a pedestal, nor is it scientific. That's why it will be fun to do the actual research instead of being political. emoticon 
Hey Richard,

I try to avoid politics at all costs on this forum, but I just wanted to give you a nod of appreciation for not being afraid to point out the growing shadow side of the progressive left.

Thanks,

Nick (a leftie with gay friends) emoticon

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/22/19 7:42 PM as a reply to terry.
It is totally possible to have boundaries as an empath. It takes a lot of work, though, but it’s worth it. It actually makes a person even more empathetic, because it makes it possible to avoid being overwhelmed.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/27/19 7:03 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:
This is where these discussions started. We should leave abusive people. Abuse has certain patterns and people should be aware of them. That may interfere with the emotional food of abusers (sadism), but that's exactly what I want to do. I absolutely love what YouTube has done to expose the techniques abusers use. It's often the only place where people get this information. What Linda talks about is extremely rare and very positive. Most people are not seeing those results. Like Matthew says, many Cluster B's enjoy their behaviour, know right from wrong (hence the private behaviour vs. public mask).
Hi Richard,
I read your posts on this thread. Very interesting. I realized that I have a friend who repeatedly ends up with really bad women, and he doesn't know how to set boundaries for himself. I always thought he probably needs those learning experiences and would eventually get the hint, but now I'm not so sure anymore.
Do you have a recommendation for something specific to read or watch to get an overview of the abusive patterns, so he could "wake up"?

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
3/27/19 7:23 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I remember one guy who said he had BPD but was "cured". He had psychological problems with sexual identity. "I thought I was gay, but I'm not." Then later he proceeded to hit on me

What does being gay have to do with this? Being gay is not a psychological problem. Hitting on somebody per se is not abusive either, unless it is in a context of dependency or if it’s done in a harrassing manner.


Sexual identity problems do connect with BPD. I'm not against anyone being gay, but when your psychologist teaches you that you aren't and that your BPD is cured, and then the guy hits on you, then that's a problem with the psychologist. Lots of people don't know what their orientation is because they have sex addiction or childhood issues with sex abuse. It's very common. It's not a problem with being gay. I say if someone is authentically that way it's healthier for them to live that way and be accepted in society, but if people have addiction problems they may act sexually in ways that are not authentic and related to love. The movie Shame actually explored that very well like they studied the psychology. I think most people are on a bisexual gradient that is very personal to themselves. I'm probably a Kinsey 1 or 2 on the scale, and that is an old scale. There is probably a more refined gradient than that for people. Sexuality can also be affected by the person of interest, (if they are interesting, successful, fit, and / or have masculine or feminine qualities that others of the same sex don't have). 

Anyways I'm going to study sexual orientation in further detail as that interests me very much. There's a lot of complexity and variety in the subject and there's a lot of political misinformation from both the left and the right. There is so much nuance, especially in the area of bisexuality. It will be good to advance my knowledge beyond bigotry (conversion therapy) or political correctness (hard identities that are more conceptual than real).

Margaret Paul talks about it in Healing Your Aloneness.

Sex Addiction as Affect Dysregulation:

People often have to let go of the addiction first to uncover what makes them feel love and happiness. Addiction masks it, and can mask their true identity, where their happiness is.
 
https://www.amazon.com/Addiction-Affect-Dysregulation-Neurobiologically-Interpersonal-ebook/dp/B0170HMJXQ/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?keywords=sex+addiction+and+emotional+dysregulation&qid=1553019009&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmr0


Thanks for clarifying! I agree that there’s probably a scale to it. I thought I was heterosexual for a long time, but much of that was convention. Unfortunately, strong prejudice and oppression have forced many gay people into making the stance that they are born gay and that it’s very black and white, because that’s the only way for them to have their love life accepted. That’s very harmful. Once the structural oppression stops, those strong identities will probably loosen up. Personally, I have never really understood gendered categories.

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
4/19/19 2:32 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Richard Zen:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I remember one guy who said he had BPD but was "cured". He had psychological problems with sexual identity. "I thought I was gay, but I'm not." Then later he proceeded to hit on me

What does being gay have to do with this? Being gay is not a psychological problem. Hitting on somebody per se is not abusive either, unless it is in a context of dependency or if it’s done in a harrassing manner.


Sexual identity problems do connect with BPD. I'm not against anyone being gay, but when your psychologist teaches you that you aren't and that your BPD is cured, and then the guy hits on you, then that's a problem with the psychologist. Lots of people don't know what their orientation is because they have sex addiction or childhood issues with sex abuse. It's very common. It's not a problem with being gay. I say if someone is authentically that way it's healthier for them to live that way and be accepted in society, but if people have addiction problems they may act sexually in ways that are not authentic and related to love. The movie Shame actually explored that very well like they studied the psychology. I think most people are on a bisexual gradient that is very personal to themselves. I'm probably a Kinsey 1 or 2 on the scale, and that is an old scale. There is probably a more refined gradient than that for people. Sexuality can also be affected by the person of interest, (if they are interesting, successful, fit, and / or have masculine or feminine qualities that others of the same sex don't have). 

Anyways I'm going to study sexual orientation in further detail as that interests me very much. There's a lot of complexity and variety in the subject and there's a lot of political misinformation from both the left and the right. There is so much nuance, especially in the area of bisexuality. It will be good to advance my knowledge beyond bigotry (conversion therapy) or political correctness (hard identities that are more conceptual than real).

Margaret Paul talks about it in Healing Your Aloneness.

Sex Addiction as Affect Dysregulation:

People often have to let go of the addiction first to uncover what makes them feel love and happiness. Addiction masks it, and can mask their true identity, where their happiness is.
 
https://www.amazon.com/Addiction-Affect-Dysregulation-Neurobiologically-Interpersonal-ebook/dp/B0170HMJXQ/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?keywords=sex+addiction+and+emotional+dysregulation&qid=1553019009&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmr0


Thanks for clarifying! I agree that there’s probably a scale to it. I thought I was heterosexual for a long time, but much of that was convention. Unfortunately, strong prejudice and oppression have forced many gay people into making the stance that they are born gay and that it’s very black and white, because that’s the only way for them to have their love life accepted. That’s very harmful. Once the structural oppression stops, those strong identities will probably loosen up. Personally, I have never really understood gendered categories.
Hi, I haven't gotten back to this thread for awhile, (stuck in Presocratics). Yes there is lots of scale in the discussion and I have been planning for sometime to do a series on sexual orientation. I'll be reading LOTS of books, including scouring the history of conversion therapy and APA's current view of it (that it should NOT be done). 

There's lots of confusion precisely because of the differing views and controversy. Everyone is afraid of misstepping and offending someone. Bisexuality in particular is where there seems to be arguments on how much fluidity is possible. "Successes" in conversion therapy were mainly Bisexuals, meaning the studies were flawed.

There is also a long coming-out period for people where they have to be more aware of how they feel in their body vs. parental and societal conditioning that can interfere. It can interfere so much so that people who identified as straight for a long time, and even campaigned against non-heteronormative orientations, eventually came out themselves. The unconscious is complicated. It's really possible to repress desires for decades. Whether that guy, who told me that his psychologist said he was cured of BPD, had sexual identity problems stemming from from it, or he was just struggling to come out, it's hard for anyone to know. Hopefully he figured it out for his own sake. 

Adding to the confusion is the changes in acronyms. LGBT turned into LGBTQA and there's now LGBTTIQQ2SA Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transsexual, Transgender, Intersex, Queer, Questioning, 2-Spirited and Allies. Conservatives are turned off and say things like "what is the world coming to?" Progressives are experimenting and shifting their awareness campaigns because some people are not liking the old labels of LGBT. The distress lines are also teaching inclusive language for Transgendered people that avoids He, She, His, Hers. We are to use They and Their to be gender neutral. Things are moving fast for people, like constant software updates. 

In regards to the other controversial topic of Cluster B personality disorders, I will use more than just YouTube for reviews, and I'm aware that a coach is not a psychologist. Yet when I talk to psychologists about this kind of abuse, they are more restrained than the coaches in talking about abusive tactics. They have to say "this abuse" instead of Narcissistic Abuse to avoid stigma. Focus on the behaviour, not the person. Yet one anti-bullying psychologist suggested coaches to me when I was dealing with toxic employers. LOL! 

Coaches are good for goal orientation but unless they have some consulting credentials, that's all they can do: Help you set goals for leaving abusive behaviour. Psychologists prefer to delve into family and childhood issues, though they can easily do coaching as well if they develop those skills. The big controversy is whether people should be in relationships with Cluster B personality disorders. Ostracizing them, especially if they have mild symptoms, can hurt them. Yet for victims (spouses, employees, etc) who are exposed to intermittent reinforcement for years, there's the moral problem of keeping them in these envrionments where their sense of self is destroyed with powerful conditioning. Especially if the abuser's pathology is higher. Victims need to leave if they want to heal. Either way there will be some blowback wandering into these subjects. emoticon

For those who felt hurt by my posts, I wish there was a cure for BPD, NPD, and ASPD, and I do hope that treatment can improve situations so that intimate relationships are possible. There may be examples of them now, but there are many examples where people have no treatment, won't get treatment, and victims have to abandon the abusers. My personal bias is to separate people from conditioning that appears toxic to me (intermittent reinforcement and learned helplessness/C-PTSD), and let people condition themselves and find healthier relationships where they are allowed some freedom. This way victims can find a place for themselves where they can rebuild their hobbies, interests...and essentially their identity.

So I'll keep on reading and learning. There's nothing else to do, except...



RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
4/19/19 2:47 PM as a reply to Nick O.
Nick O:
Richard Zen:
nickol lindsay:
This is ALL so offensive to the mental health community and the LGBTQ community.  


I'm done talking to you because none of my posts are that way. People like to take offense where there is none as a form of gaining power.  The mental health community is who I consulted in all the above posts. It's not healthy to put a "community" on a pedestal, nor is it scientific. That's why it will be fun to do the actual research instead of being political. emoticon 
Hey Richard,

I try to avoid politics at all costs on this forum, but I just wanted to give you a nod of appreciation for not being afraid to point out the growing shadow side of the progressive left.

Thanks,

Nick (a leftie with gay friends) emoticon
It's hard. You have to spend a lot of time considering what you want to say and you can't please everyone. 

The big thing to be worried about from a dharma perspective is being a political junkie and getting addicted to the sadomasochistic back-and-forth. It's definitely exhausting (dukkha)! 

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
4/21/19 9:40 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
I actually am one of those who feels that the they pronoun is more accurate, but as long as people don’t go out of their way to deny the existence of that kind of conditioning, or mock it or actively advocate oppressive regulations, I don’t get offended. Any pronoun is fine. It’s not like there is a self anyway.

I would wish for the LGBT+ community (which I myself am part of, parts of it anyway) to find the peace of mind to be inclusive rather than territorial. There is enough of hate around us without internal fights. I try to be compassionate towards different sides in this, as I think compassion is the only thing that will ultimately bring peace, but I must admit that I sometimes get very upset when subgroups from some fractions choose to invest their energy in demonizing other fractions.

...

I have encouraged friends to leave abusive relationships with people who showed the kinds of behavior that you are talking about (maybe I said that above, I don’t remember). Those abusers were not receptive to treatment and their behavior was very harmful. I think it’s good to know what one is dealing with so that one does not get caught up in codependence, because I have seen that happen and know what it can do to a person. Pointing out narcissistic traits was what helped one friend to leave that relationships. If that is what it takes to help somebody get away from harm, I will use it. No doubt there. Validating the experiences of abuse victims is important, too. Denying important aspects of their experiences easily transforms into gaslighting, and that is abuse, too. At the same time, I do think it is important to have a climat that allows for people who fall into the spectrum to feel that there is a point to them seeking treatment rather than denying those insights into their conditioning. That’s a tough balancing act, and I don’t know exactly how to navigate it. Maybe it cannot even be made publicly, I don’t know. Maybe we need different forums to adress these different needs. I don’t know, and I’m not in any position to judge anyone for how they choose to navigate.

When it comes to BPD I have seen several examples where it would be unfair to make general warnings, though. I don’t know how much of that is due to the fact that many people get the wrong diagnosis, which is also something to be aware of.

Anyway, I would like to think that all human beings can work with themselves if they want to, and I believe we are in agreement there. It’s tough with those who for different reasons do not wish to work with themselves despite an urgent need to do so. That becomes harmful to others.

Leaving a harmful relationship is always valid. That deserves to be repeated. And whether or not it is harmful is for each individual to decide for themselves. No need to justify it. (I think relationships should always be voluntary, unless one has obligations such as parenthood.)

RE: How to stop emphatizing with other people emotions ?
Answer
4/21/19 11:20 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:


I would wish for the LGBT+ community (which I myself am part of, parts of it anyway) to find the peace of mind to be inclusive rather than territorial. There is enough of hate around us without internal fights. I try to be compassionate towards different sides in this, as I think compassion is the only thing that will ultimately bring peace, but I must admit that I sometimes get very upset when subgroups from some fractions choose to invest their energy in demonizing other fractions.



It's probably human nature to fight. Sexuality defies those labels and is polychromatic. People want to be validated for their own sexuality and can get into groups, but people are still individuals. As long as people understand that their relationships are really their own business, then the need for fighting should be reduced. This is especially true if people can notice their pleasure in fighting in real time. There's a peace in minding one's own business. If someone is in a non-heteronormative relationship that is mutually beneficial then that is better than any heterosexual relationship stuck in the cycle of abuse. From the outside, most people don't have enough information to decide on what is a good relationship or not, and they have enough work tending to their own relationships.