Using The formless realms to explore while in Equanimity, what do you think? Seems like boundless space and boundless consciousness should be interesting to explore and very much accessible while in equanimity. Thoughts? Ideas? Tips?

using the formless realms to explore what?

if what you mean is that you would like to explore the formless realms while in equanimity (that is, equanimity regarding formations nana/knowledge/stage), then yes, they should be most easily accessible from there. to some extent, their access may even be inevitable depending on the portion of the stage one happens to be in, as a run through equanimity involves elements from those jhanas (and given suitably strong concentration, a practitioner may find his or her experience suffused into such formless states). the question then is how much you want to spend the limited amount of time that your momentum (which gets you to, and keeps you in, equanimity) will last exploring those realms beyond where insight-investigation (read: noting what arises) will take you ... rather than, say, pushing onward toward the next stage of insight.

on pages 34-35 of practical insight meditation, mahasi wrote:

and then, from the section i omitted above:



all this is to say: if you realised that you were at the threshold of path and fruit, would you wish to tarry?

tarin

Tarrin, These quotes are very inspiring and also clarifying particularly as they relate to laxity. No idea whether I'm on the threshold of fruition, but these reminders are great. Thanks.

I guess I should have been more specific. By exploring I mean looking deeper at sensations, how they arise and how they pass. More specifically I mean looking at sensations of spaciousness and awareness. I don't mean attaining to the formless realms and kicking around in the water but inclining the mind toward those sensations (spaciousness, consciousness) letting them pervade the field of awareness and then looking at how they come to be. This should also be helpful to the understanding of Emptiness as those states are quite refined and empty of distractions, body sensation, most thinking, etc.

I believe these kinds of explorations align well with what one should be doing at this stage and experiencing emptiness should be helpful for seeing the non-self aspect.

go for it.. so long as you keep your focus on the three characteristics (or other such scheme/theme that develops insight).



if you see that your experiences of emptiness will already arise of their own accord, what is it that drives you to seek them further?

tarin

I just sat a weeklong retreat focused on emptiness, I've had a taste of emptiness or maybe just a taste of a taste. Anyways, I want to try and experience it more deeply (probably unlikely outside of retreat conditions) and I think it would be helpful to experience it again and again. These desires are not out of looking to repeat some pseudo-mystical experience but out of a desire to deepen the insights I've gained so far and to try and flesh them out further.

Another thing I've found about the experience of emptiness is that going deeper into it helps me overcome my resistance to letting go (of control, of sense of self, of needing to understand) which I think is something that's holding me back (both on and off the cushion).

Lastly, this is another path to liberation as described in the Lesser Sutta on Emptiness - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.121.than.html

attempting to flesh out insights counts as indulging content, in case it wasn't clear.

here is my diagnosis: you are fixating on this content because either you are in re-observation or are getting to equanimity regularly and falling back into re-observation regularly. therefore, it may be pertinent to point this out from 'practical insight meditation':

'When the "knowledge of equanimity about formations" becomes mature, the mind will be very clear and able to notice the formations very lucidly. Noticing runs smoothly as if no effort is required. Subtle formations, too, are noticed without effort. The true characteristics of impermanence, pain and no-self are becoming evident without any reflection.'[1]



your reply indicates that what you describe as emptiness is the condition of experiencing no-self characteristic. as success in noting practice arises from the attention paid to the three characteristics and not to the content of the sensation's experience (nor the 'strata of mind' in which the experience arises), then success in such practice is not merely a jhanic attainment that has been sufficiently fortified but the result of attention paid to the three characteristics. it is so simple that in attempting to flesh out its explanation, i end up simply repeating myself.



in this sutta, the buddha is describing the series of progressions that occurs in the formless parts of the 4th (vipassana) jhana for ananda to check against his own experience, not prescribing an order for the practitioner to give rise to the formless realms in order to attempt to beat the system by fabricating/inadequately approximating the conditions in which cessation occurs. as the condition that is preventing cessation from occurring is the lack of sufficient insight into the nature of the three characteristics, all that needs be done to produce such cessation is to develop insight into the three characteristics irrespective of the object in which they are observed.

here's an analogy: stop trying to tap the coke out of the machine by hitting it in various places and just put in the three quarters that it costs already (note the three characteristics).

tarin

[1] bps 1971, p 32

Thank you for your replies, Tarin. Im not sure you're correct about your interpretation of the sutta I mentioned but that is just theory. I suspect that you may be right about my current attitude towards practice, I may be stalling and I would definitely be happy with a way to not sit through another dark night (I know, just get stream entry and be done with this dark night).

Eran.

you're welcome.



when your admittedly-theoretical uncertainty about my interpretation of the Cula-suññata Sutta is no longer 'just theory' - that is, when you have learnt your way through high equanimity (particularly those aspects of it which pertain to formless realms) so well that you are in a place to experientially refute an interpretation concerned with its understanding, we may more productively continue to discuss the topic then. in the meantime, i recommend you set the issue aside and focus on getting stream-entry first before concerning yourself with matters of a higher path (bear in mind that the sutta was addressed to ananda, who was already a stream-enterer), unless for whatever reason that sutta and the 'another path to liberation' you perceive it to describe resonate so deeply that you won't set it aside, in which case something of benefit might come of discussing the issue further and we could.



three characteristics. that's all it takes. if you couldn't do it, you wouldn't have started this thread and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

tarin

Hi Eran,

FWIW, I'm negotiating my way through tapping the coke machine as well (though in different terms). Here are some of my perspectives:

It may help to keep in mind that the tapping is a manifestation of being embedded in "personality view" and that it's helpful to extend your awareness/noting to include the very subtle and not so subtle attitudes supported by and promulgated by your desire to tap the coke machine. IE: become aware of the expectations, the desire for a solution, the tension of wanting/waiting for stream entry, the excitement that "something is about to happen", the disappointment that "nothing is happening". Seeking to tap the coke machine may be a manifestation of "doubt". Being a "hard-ass" about noting is an attitude too. Hold all these attitudes mindfully in your awareness without trying to banish them.

For me at this point, the "hard-core" of hard-core dharma practice is starting to muddy my method. It's important to throw all my effort into this, but I'm seeing just how much "trying to attain" something is another manifestation of personality view.

One thing that is helping is relaxing. You may try to incline towards relaxing a bit and towards "have fun" (as Tarin suggests in his "Reformed Slackers Guide"). You can relax without slacking, but that may mean slacking for a little while till some of the contraction has passed. Metta practice (for yourself and your present suffering) can really help with taking things down a notch.

The "goal" of this practice is not to suffer.

Regards,
Bruno