Formless realms and equanimity - Discussion
Formless realms and equanimity
Eran G, modified 13 Years ago at 11/19/10 2:44 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 11/19/10 2:44 AM
Formless realms and equanimity
Posts: 182 Join Date: 1/5/10 Recent Posts
Using The formless realms to explore while in Equanimity, what do you think? Seems like boundless space and boundless consciousness should be interesting to explore and very much accessible while in equanimity. Thoughts? Ideas? Tips?
tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 11/19/10 8:16 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 11/19/10 7:31 AM
RE: Formless realms and equanimity
Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent PostsEran G:
Using The formless realms to explore while in Equanimity, what do you think? Seems like boundless space and boundless consciousness should be interesting to explore and very much accessible while in equanimity. Thoughts? Ideas? Tips?
using the formless realms to explore what?
if what you mean is that you would like to explore the formless realms while in equanimity (that is, equanimity regarding formations nana/knowledge/stage), then yes, they should be most easily accessible from there. to some extent, their access may even be inevitable depending on the portion of the stage one happens to be in, as a run through equanimity involves elements from those jhanas (and given suitably strong concentration, a practitioner may find his or her experience suffused into such formless states). the question then is how much you want to spend the limited amount of time that your momentum (which gets you to, and keeps you in, equanimity) will last exploring those realms beyond where insight-investigation (read: noting what arises) will take you ... rather than, say, pushing onward toward the next stage of insight.
on pages 34-35 of practical insight meditation, mahasi wrote:
Mahasi Sayadaw:
If the meditator begins either with the rising and falling of the abdomen or with any other bodily and mental object, he will find that he is gaining momentum. And then the noticing will go on of its own accord smoothly and calmly. It will appear to him that he is watching with ease the ceasing and vanishing of the formations in a clear manner. At this point, his mind is quite free from all the defilements. However pleasant and inviting an object may be, it is no longer so to him. Again, however loathsome an object may be, it is no longer so to him. He simply sees, hears, smells, tastes, feels a touch or cognizes. With six kinds of equanimity described in the Texts he notices all the formations. He is not even aware of the length of time he is engaged in contemplation. Nor does he reflect in any manner. But if he does not develop sufficient progress of insight to gain the “knowledge of the path and its fruition” (magga and phala) within two or three hours, concentration becomes slack and reflection sets in. On the other hand, if he is making good progress he may anticipate further advance. He will become so delighted with the result that he will experience a fall. Then he must dispel such an anticipation or reflection by directing bare noticing to it. A steady contemplation will achieve smooth progress again. But if sufficient strength of insight has not yet been achieved, concentration becomes slack again. In this way, some meditators progress and fall back several times. Those who are acquainted with the stages of the progress of insight by way of study (or by hearing about them) encounter such ups and downs. Hence it is not good for a pupil who meditates under the guidance of a teacher to get acquainted with these stages before meditation begins. But for the benefit of those who have to practice without the guidance of an experienced teacher, these stages have been indicated here.
...
The ups and downs of insight knowledge occurring in the aforesaid manner are comparable to a bird let loose from a sea-going ship. In ancient times the captain of a sea-going ship, finding it difficult to know whether the ship was approaching land, released a bird that he had taken with him. The bird flies in all four directions to look for a shore. Whenever it cannot find any land, it comes back to the ship. As long as insight knowledge is not mature enough to grow into path and fruition knowledge and thereby attain to the realization of nirvana, it becomes lax and retarded, just as the bird returns to the ship.
and then, from the section i omitted above:
Mahasi Sayadaw:
In spite of such fluctuations in his progress the meditator must not allow himself to be overcome by disappointment or despair. He is now, as it were, at the threshold of magga and phala (the entry and the fruition of the stages of sainthood). As soon as the five faculties (indriya) of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom are developed in an even manner, he will soon reach magga and phala and realize nirvana.
all this is to say: if you realised that you were at the threshold of path and fruit, would you wish to tarry?
tarin
boeuf f, modified 13 Years ago at 11/19/10 1:53 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 11/19/10 1:53 PM
RE: Formless realms and equanimity
Posts: 60 Join Date: 2/4/10 Recent Posts
Tarrin, These quotes are very inspiring and also clarifying particularly as they relate to laxity. No idea whether I'm on the threshold of fruition, but these reminders are great. Thanks.
Eran G, modified 13 Years ago at 11/19/10 3:31 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 11/19/10 3:31 PM
RE: Formless realms and equanimity
Posts: 182 Join Date: 1/5/10 Recent Poststarin greco:
Eran G:
Using The formless realms to explore while in Equanimity, what do you think? Seems like boundless space and boundless consciousness should be interesting to explore and very much accessible while in equanimity. Thoughts? Ideas? Tips?
using the formless realms to explore what?
if what you mean is that you would like to explore the formless realms while in equanimity (that is, equanimity regarding formations nana/knowledge/stage), then yes, they should be most easily accessible from there. to some extent, their access may even be inevitable depending on the portion of the stage one happens to be in, as a run through equanimity involves elements from those jhanas (and given suitably strong concentration, a practitioner may find his or her experience suffused into such formless states). the question then is how much you want to spend the limited amount of time that your momentum (which gets you to, and keeps you in, equanimity) will last exploring those realms beyond where insight-investigation (read: noting what arises) will take you ... rather than, say, pushing onward toward the next stage of insight.
I guess I should have been more specific. By exploring I mean looking deeper at sensations, how they arise and how they pass. More specifically I mean looking at sensations of spaciousness and awareness. I don't mean attaining to the formless realms and kicking around in the water but inclining the mind toward those sensations (spaciousness, consciousness) letting them pervade the field of awareness and then looking at how they come to be. This should also be helpful to the understanding of Emptiness as those states are quite refined and empty of distractions, body sensation, most thinking, etc.
I believe these kinds of explorations align well with what one should be doing at this stage and experiencing emptiness should be helpful for seeing the non-self aspect.
tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 11/20/10 8:05 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 11/20/10 8:05 PM
RE: Formless realms and equanimity
Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent PostsEran G:
tarin greco:
Eran G:
Using The formless realms to explore while in Equanimity, what do you think? Seems like boundless space and boundless consciousness should be interesting to explore and very much accessible while in equanimity. Thoughts? Ideas? Tips?
using the formless realms to explore what?
if what you mean is that you would like to explore the formless realms while in equanimity (that is, equanimity regarding formations nana/knowledge/stage), then yes, they should be most easily accessible from there. to some extent, their access may even be inevitable depending on the portion of the stage one happens to be in, as a run through equanimity involves elements from those jhanas (and given suitably strong concentration, a practitioner may find his or her experience suffused into such formless states). the question then is how much you want to spend the limited amount of time that your momentum (which gets you to, and keeps you in, equanimity) will last exploring those realms beyond where insight-investigation (read: noting what arises) will take you ... rather than, say, pushing onward toward the next stage of insight.
I guess I should have been more specific. By exploring I mean looking deeper at sensations, how they arise and how they pass. More specifically I mean looking at sensations of spaciousness and awareness. I don't mean attaining to the formless realms and kicking around in the water but inclining the mind toward those sensations (spaciousness, consciousness) letting them pervade the field of awareness and then looking at how they come to be. This should also be helpful to the understanding of Emptiness as those states are quite refined and empty of distractions, body sensation, most thinking, etc.
go for it.. so long as you keep your focus on the three characteristics (or other such scheme/theme that develops insight).
Eran G:
I believe these kinds of explorations align well with what one should be doing at this stage and experiencing emptiness should be helpful for seeing the non-self aspect.
if you see that your experiences of emptiness will already arise of their own accord, what is it that drives you to seek them further?
tarin
Eran G, modified 13 Years ago at 11/20/10 8:28 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 11/20/10 8:28 PM
RE: Formless realms and equanimity
Posts: 182 Join Date: 1/5/10 Recent PostsTarin:
Eran G:
I believe these kinds of explorations align well with what one should be doing at this stage and experiencing emptiness should be helpful for seeing the non-self aspect.
if you see that your experiences of emptiness will already arise of their own accord, what is it that drives you to seek them further?
tarin
I just sat a weeklong retreat focused on emptiness, I've had a taste of emptiness or maybe just a taste of a taste. Anyways, I want to try and experience it more deeply (probably unlikely outside of retreat conditions) and I think it would be helpful to experience it again and again. These desires are not out of looking to repeat some pseudo-mystical experience but out of a desire to deepen the insights I've gained so far and to try and flesh them out further.
Another thing I've found about the experience of emptiness is that going deeper into it helps me overcome my resistance to letting go (of control, of sense of self, of needing to understand) which I think is something that's holding me back (both on and off the cushion).
Lastly, this is another path to liberation as described in the Lesser Sutta on Emptiness - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.121.than.html
tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 11/21/10 12:24 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 11/21/10 12:16 AM
RE: Formless realms and equanimity
Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent PostsEran G:
Tarin:
Eran G:
I believe these kinds of explorations align well with what one should be doing at this stage and experiencing emptiness should be helpful for seeing the non-self aspect.
if you see that your experiences of emptiness will already arise of their own accord, what is it that drives you to seek them further?
tarin
Eran G:
I just sat a weeklong retreat focused on emptiness, I've had a taste of emptiness or maybe just a taste of a taste. Anyways, I want to try and experience it more deeply (probably unlikely outside of retreat conditions) and I think it would be helpful to experience it again and again. These desires are not out of looking to repeat some pseudo-mystical experience but out of a desire to deepen the insights I've gained so far and to try and flesh them out further.
attempting to flesh out insights counts as indulging content, in case it wasn't clear.
here is my diagnosis: you are fixating on this content because either you are in re-observation or are getting to equanimity regularly and falling back into re-observation regularly. therefore, it may be pertinent to point this out from 'practical insight meditation':
'When the "knowledge of equanimity about formations" becomes mature, the mind will be very clear and able to notice the formations very lucidly. Noticing runs smoothly as if no effort is required. Subtle formations, too, are noticed without effort. The true characteristics of impermanence, pain and no-self are becoming evident without any reflection.'[1]
Eran G:
Another thing I've found about the experience of emptiness is that going deeper into it helps me overcome my resistance to letting go (of control, of sense of self, of needing to understand) which I think is something that's holding me back (both on and off the cushion).
your reply indicates that what you describe as emptiness is the condition of experiencing no-self characteristic. as success in noting practice arises from the attention paid to the three characteristics and not to the content of the sensation's experience (nor the 'strata of mind' in which the experience arises), then success in such practice is not merely a jhanic attainment that has been sufficiently fortified but the result of attention paid to the three characteristics. it is so simple that in attempting to flesh out its explanation, i end up simply repeating myself.
Eran G:
Lastly, this is another path to liberation as described in the Lesser Sutta on Emptiness - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.121.than.html
in this sutta, the buddha is describing the series of progressions that occurs in the formless parts of the 4th (vipassana) jhana for ananda to check against his own experience, not prescribing an order for the practitioner to give rise to the formless realms in order to attempt to beat the system by fabricating/inadequately approximating the conditions in which cessation occurs. as the condition that is preventing cessation from occurring is the lack of sufficient insight into the nature of the three characteristics, all that needs be done to produce such cessation is to develop insight into the three characteristics irrespective of the object in which they are observed.
here's an analogy: stop trying to tap the coke out of the machine by hitting it in various places and just put in the three quarters that it costs already (note the three characteristics).
tarin
[1] bps 1971, p 32
Eran G, modified 13 Years ago at 11/22/10 4:07 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 11/22/10 4:07 PM
RE: Formless realms and equanimity
Posts: 182 Join Date: 1/5/10 Recent Posts
Thank you for your replies, Tarin. Im not sure you're correct about your interpretation of the sutta I mentioned but that is just theory. I suspect that you may be right about my current attitude towards practice, I may be stalling and I would definitely be happy with a way to not sit through another dark night (I know, just get stream entry and be done with this dark night).
Eran.
Eran.
tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 11/23/10 12:40 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 11/23/10 12:40 PM
RE: Formless realms and equanimity
Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent PostsEran G:
Thank you for your replies, Tarin.
you're welcome.
Eran G:
Im not sure you're correct about your interpretation of the sutta I mentioned but that is just theory.
when your admittedly-theoretical uncertainty about my interpretation of the Cula-suññata Sutta is no longer 'just theory' - that is, when you have learnt your way through high equanimity (particularly those aspects of it which pertain to formless realms) so well that you are in a place to experientially refute an interpretation concerned with its understanding, we may more productively continue to discuss the topic then. in the meantime, i recommend you set the issue aside and focus on getting stream-entry first before concerning yourself with matters of a higher path (bear in mind that the sutta was addressed to ananda, who was already a stream-enterer), unless for whatever reason that sutta and the 'another path to liberation' you perceive it to describe resonate so deeply that you won't set it aside, in which case something of benefit might come of discussing the issue further and we could.
Eran G:
I suspect that you may be right about my current attitude towards practice, I may be stalling and I would definitely be happy with a way to not sit through another dark night (I know, just get stream entry and be done with this dark night).
three characteristics. that's all it takes. if you couldn't do it, you wouldn't have started this thread and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
tarin
boeuf f, modified 13 Years ago at 11/23/10 2:42 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 11/23/10 2:42 PM
RE: Formless realms and equanimity
Posts: 60 Join Date: 2/4/10 Recent Postshere's an analogy: stop trying to tap the coke out of the machine by hitting it in various places and just put in the three quarters that it costs already (note the three characteristics).
Hi Eran,
FWIW, I'm negotiating my way through tapping the coke machine as well (though in different terms). Here are some of my perspectives:
It may help to keep in mind that the tapping is a manifestation of being embedded in "personality view" and that it's helpful to extend your awareness/noting to include the very subtle and not so subtle attitudes supported by and promulgated by your desire to tap the coke machine. IE: become aware of the expectations, the desire for a solution, the tension of wanting/waiting for stream entry, the excitement that "something is about to happen", the disappointment that "nothing is happening". Seeking to tap the coke machine may be a manifestation of "doubt". Being a "hard-ass" about noting is an attitude too. Hold all these attitudes mindfully in your awareness without trying to banish them.
For me at this point, the "hard-core" of hard-core dharma practice is starting to muddy my method. It's important to throw all my effort into this, but I'm seeing just how much "trying to attain" something is another manifestation of personality view.
One thing that is helping is relaxing. You may try to incline towards relaxing a bit and towards "have fun" (as Tarin suggests in his "Reformed Slackers Guide"). You can relax without slacking, but that may mean slacking for a little while till some of the contraction has passed. Metta practice (for yourself and your present suffering) can really help with taking things down a notch.
The "goal" of this practice is not to suffer.
Regards,
Bruno