Fake fruitions?

jsn, modified 4 Years ago at 4/19/19 2:42 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 4/19/19 2:41 PM

Fake fruitions?

Posts: 36 Join Date: 5/22/18 Recent Posts
TL;DR: Having repeated experiences that look like fake fruitions, interested in second opinion.

My practice: here's my practice log thread. Been doing daily formal insight practice for over 2 years now, currently it's 1 hour per day, sometimes more, of something like choiceless awareness, with noting with labels as fallback. I think that I'm in EQ (baseline attention scope is wide, feeling tone neutral / slightly positive). I've been this way for many months now, with backslides into DN becoming more rare and less intense, and the baseline feeling increasingly ordinary.

When it happens: it can happen on the cushion, after I reach the stable equilibrium, or when I'm lying in bed before falling asleep (but strictly before any drowsiness/sleepiness arises). It happens when I'm kinda staying centered while paying attention. Having an intention to re-experience those helps.

What happens: it feels like for a very brief moment the whole world is kinda falling away. Or sometimes it feels like the whole world is collapsing into the observer. Then, immediately, also for a very brief moment, it feels like the world is coming back -- like going back into focus from being out of focus, or something. There's a very brief moment when the "world" ("that side") is already here, but the observer ("this side") is not? And then things are "normal" again.

There seems to be nothing in between, no state when "the world" is absent. It's a bit confusing. It's going away, and then it's coming back, there's no "it's gone".

I can have several of those in a row (with ~1 minute intervals), but not many.

I don't think it might possibly be fruitions, because:
  • It feels like a really minor thing. It's very subtle, seems like I can almost miss it. My description above seems too clear-cut; in reality, the thing is more vague. I'm not even sure I would be able to describe it like that without previous exposure to MCTB three doors descriptions.
  • It doesn't feel like a "reboot". Well, maybe just a tiny bit, but, again, definitely not like something serious.
  • It doesn't seem very insightful. I mean, there's insight in every experience, but [...]
  • There's no waves of bliss or anything. Actually, if there is any after-effect, it's a bit calming.
I think I've been having those for quite some time now (weeks at least?), but didn't really notice or paid close attention / tried to remember them.

Am I correct that it doesn't sound like fruitions?
Daniel M Ingram, modified 4 Years ago at 4/19/19 3:21 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 4/19/19 3:21 PM

RE: Fake fruitions?

Posts: 3269 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
While reactions to Fruitions vary, many people have lots of experiences that they think are Fruitions but aren't, and, in fact, this is the vast majority.

That doesn't mean that what you are having is Fruitions or not, and some people aren't as impressed with them as others.

However, that you think they are not means that they likely aren't.

If they don't meet the criteria, be appropriately skeptical.

Other questions, as there are more criteria, involve asking "Am I a stream enterer?" Asking this looks to see if you cycle easily, rapidly, naturally, up through the stages of insight? Also, is there some fundamental reduction in suffering? Some stages can fool one into thinking they are cycling through complete cycles. Some stages, such as the A&P and Equanimity, can produce deep changes that some will think are permanent "traits", but one must sort those out, and that is not always easy, as they are common stream entry mimics.

If you don't get the sense that the Fruitions are in some way showing you something insightful about the true nature of experience, that is concerning, and, while you might just have very high standards for what insight should be, it also is very possible they just aren't Fruitions.

The best thing to so is keep an open mind, practice diligently without much attention to mapping but a lot of attention to what actually happens, and keep practicing clearly.

If they really are Fruitions, you are getting the benefit even if you don't think they are. If they are not Fruitions, best not to mistake them for Fruitions. So, given a choice, be skeptical, as it is much less likely to cause problems than overcalling your attainments.


jsn, modified 4 Years ago at 4/20/19 12:35 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 4/20/19 10:04 AM

RE: Fake fruitions?

Posts: 36 Join Date: 5/22/18 Recent Posts

Yes, very, thank you.

I don't think I have particulary high standards for insight (or even well-defined ones, actually). There's an off chance that I'm just not observing them clearly enough (is it even possible though to have the real thing and not see it clearly enough to gain insight?), so I'll keep looking for a while, but it doesn't sound very plausible.

I usually go through some progression of stages in my sits, though they are harder to map lately, but it's usually rather linear, or linear with a backslide or two, but not getting-over-the-hill kind of cyclical -- which is an evidence of pre-Path state, perhaps. I do see a serious reduction of suffering since I first reached lucid mid-EQ last June (and my wife says that I look different after that, like the weight is lifted or something). I don't know if it's fundamental or not. I don't know if it's permanent -- I mean, it sometimes feel like it is, but then again, a lot of things feel permanent, and nothing actually is. It is my understanding that after the stream entry this reduction should feel kinda "locked in", and you're supposed to feel that at least some major part of your work is done. I have neither of those, so I'd say I don't feel like a stream enterer.