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When the Waters Were Changed

When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/26/19 5:51 AM
A story:

Once upon a time Khidr, the Teacher of Moses, called upon mankind without warning. At a certain date, all the water in the world which had not been specially hoarded would disappear. It would then be renewed, with different water, which would drive men mad.

Only one man listened to the meaning of this advice. He collected water and went to a secure place where he stored it, and waited for the water to change its character.

On the appointed date the streams stopped running, the wells ran dry, and the man who had listened, seeing this happening, went to his retreat and drank his preserved water.

When he saw, from his security, the waterfalls again beginning to flow, this man descended among the other sons of men. He found that they were thinking and talking in an entirely different way from before; yet they had no memory of what had happened, nor of having been warned. When he tried to talk to them, he realized that they thought he was mad, and they showed hostility or compassion, not understanding.

At first he drank none of the new water, but went back to his concealment, to draw on his supplies, every day. Finally, however, he took the decision to drink the new water because he could not bear the loneliness of living, behaving, and thinking in a different way from everyone else. He drank the new water, and became like the rest. Then he forgot all about his own store of special water, and his fellows began to look upon him as a madman who had been miraculously restored to sanity.

-Idries Shah, from Tales of the Dervishes: Teaching Stories of the Sufi Masters over the Past Thousand Years

When the Waters Were Changed: Legend repeatedly links Dhun-Nun, the Egyptian (died 860), reputed author of this tale, with at least one for of Freemasonry. He is, in any case, the earliest figure in the history of the Malamati Dervish Order, which has often been stated by Western students to have striking similarities with the craft of the Masons. Dhun-Nun, it is said, rediscovered the meaning of the Pharaonic hieroglyphics. This version is attributed to Sayed Sabir Ali-Shah, a saint of the Chishti Order, who died in 1818.

RE: When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/26/19 6:23 AM as a reply to Andromeda.
Now that's an interesting story.

RE: When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/26/19 8:36 AM as a reply to Andromeda.
I love this story and can totally understand why he drank the new water eventually. As someone who has been on the sidelines watching the world and human crowd behavior for all of his life. Suspicious of the human tendency to form a group mind around whatever topic that group or society fancy at the moment. Maybe it would just have been easier to hold the same beliefs as the majority? 

What water do we need to drink here at Dho to fit in?

It also made me think about this classic book which I haven't read but seen referenced many times with the intriguing title.

Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds


  • "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
  • "We find that whole communities suddenly fix their minds upon one object, and go mad in its pursuit; that millions of people become simultaneously impressed with one delusion, and run after it, till their attention is caught by some new folly more captivating than the first."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_Madness_of_Crowds

RE: When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/26/19 8:54 AM as a reply to Jyet.
What water do we need to drink here at Dho to fit in?

Do we need to fit in?

RE: When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/26/19 9:08 AM as a reply to Andromeda.
Don't miss your daily practice! emoticon

RE: When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/26/19 9:29 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
What water do we need to drink here at Dho to fit in?

Do we need to fit in?

I don't fit in here at the DhO. And I'm one of the moderators! =D

I was feeling lonely and sad awhile back and asked a mentor, "Where do I fit in?" His reply: "You don't. And you never will." Brutal.

RE: When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/26/19 9:58 AM as a reply to Andromeda.
Well, Andromeda, you were the first person to reply to me when I was new here, so to me you will always be the norm. Spooky, huh?

Sad story. There is a Swedish short novel by Niklas Rådström (?) that has a very similar storyline. It’s about a man who woke up in the morning and told his wife that he had dreamt that there was no Eiffel tower. ”What Eiffel tower?”, his wife replied. ”You are still dreaming, silly, there is no Eiffel tower. You must be thinking about the statue of Liberty that Eiffel built”. And she told their friends about that time when her husband dreamt that there was an Eiffel tower, and they all laughed. For a long time the man tried to explain that he hadn’t dreamt that there was an Eiffel tower, but that there wasn’t. And they laughed, because there had never been an Eiffel tower, and it was so funny that he was still caught up in that weird dream. After a while it wasn’t funny anymore. They all thought he was nuts. And so he resigned and played along, laughing about that time when he dreamt such a convincing dream about a tower that had never existed.

RE: When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/26/19 12:50 PM as a reply to Andromeda.
Andromeda:
A story:

Once upon a time Khidr, the Teacher of Moses, called upon mankind without warning. At a certain date, all the water in the world which had not been specially hoarded would disappear. It would then be renewed, with different water, which would drive men mad.

Only one man listened to the meaning of this advice. He collected water and went to a secure place where he stored it, and waited for the water to change its character.

On the appointed date the streams stopped running, the wells ran dry, and the man who had listened, seeing this happening, went to his retreat and drank his preserved water.

When he saw, from his security, the waterfalls again beginning to flow, this man descended among the other sons of men. He found that they were thinking and talking in an entirely different way from before; yet they had no memory of what had happened, nor of having been warned. When he tried to talk to them, he realized that they thought he was mad, and they showed hostility or compassion, not understanding.

At first he drank none of the new water, but went back to his concealment, to draw on his supplies, every day. Finally, however, he took the decision to drink the new water because he could not bear the loneliness of living, behaving, and thinking in a different way from everyone else. He drank the new water, and became like the rest. Then he forgot all about his own store of special water, and his fellows began to look upon him as a madman who had been miraculously restored to sanity.

-Idries Shah, from Tales of the Dervishes: Teaching Stories of the Sufi Masters over the Past Thousand Years

When the Waters Were Changed: Legend repeatedly links Dhun-Nun, the Egyptian (died 860), reputed author of this tale, with at least one for of Freemasonry. He is, in any case, the earliest figure in the history of the Malamati Dervish Order, which has often been stated by Western students to have striking similarities with the craft of the Masons. Dhun-Nun, it is said, rediscovered the meaning of the Pharaonic hieroglyphics. This version is attributed to Sayed Sabir Ali-Shah, a saint of the Chishti Order, who died in 1818.


(big smile)

I never forget a story...

t

RE: When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/26/19 12:59 PM as a reply to Andromeda.
Andromeda:
Chris Marti:
What water do we need to drink here at Dho to fit in?

Do we need to fit in?

I don't fit in here at the DhO. And I'm one of the moderators! =D

I was feeling lonely and sad awhile back and asked a mentor, "Where do I fit in?" His reply: "You don't. And you never will." Brutal.

e komo mai, bra...

perhaps we could join a club for misfits (laughs)...

t

RE: When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/26/19 1:13 PM as a reply to Andromeda.
I don't know about the rest of you but I didn't develop and deepen a spiritual practice so I could fit in. It's the antithesis of fitting in, frankly, and yet it satisfies.

emoticon

RE: When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/26/19 2:12 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I don't know about the rest of you but I didn't develop and deepen a spiritual practice so I could fit in. It's the antithesis of fitting in, frankly, and yet it satisfies.

emoticon
aloha chris,

   If everyone agrees that we don't want to fit in...it's like saying that we all agree that common sense can be dispensed with. As andromeda says, "and I'm a moderator."

terry




from demello, 'the song of the bird'



DOMESTICATED REBELS

He was a difficult man. He thought differently and acted differently from the rest of us. He questioned everything. Was he a rebel or a prophet or a psychopath or a hero? "Who can tell the difference?" we said. "And who cares, anyway?"

So we socialized him. We taught him to be sensitive to public opinion and to the feelings of others. We got him to con­form. He was a comfortable person to live with now. Well adjusted. We had made him manageable and docile.

We congratulated him on having achieved self-conquest. He began to congratulate himself too. He did not see that it was we who had conquered him.



A big guy walked into the crowded room

 and yelled, '1s there a fellow by the name 

of Murphy here?" A little fellow stood up 

and said, "I'm Murphy. “



The big guy nearly killed him. He cracked 

five of his ribs, he broke his nose, he

gave him two black eyes, he flung him in

a heap on the floor. Then he stomped out.



After he had gone we were amazed to see 

the little fellow chuckling to himself

"I certainly made a fool of that guy, “ 

he was saying softly to himself, "I'm 

not Murphy! Ha, hal”




A society that domesticates its rebels has gained its peace. But it has lost its future.

RE: When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/26/19 2:24 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Well, Andromeda, you were the first person to reply to me when I was new here, so to me you will always be the norm. Spooky, huh?

!!!

RE: When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/26/19 2:36 PM as a reply to Jyet.
Elias Canetti, who won the Nobel Prize in Literature, wrote a book called Crowds and Power. A short excerpt with lots of snips from the chapter Domestication of Crowds in the World Religions:
Religions whose claims to universality have been acknowledged very soon change the accent of their appeal. In the beginning their aim is to reach all who can be reached and won. The crowd the envisage is universal; every single soul counts and every soul shall be theirs. But the fight they have to sustain leads gradually to a kind of hidden respect for adversaries whose institutions are laready in existence. They see how difficult it is to hold one's ground; institutions which offer solidarity and permanence seem more and more important to them. Stimulated by those of their adversaries, they make great efforts to introduce institutions of their own, and these, if they succeed, grow in importance with time. The dead weight of institutions, which have a life of their own, then gradually tames the impetus of the original appeal... A sense of the treacherousness of the crowd is, so to speak, in the blood of all the historical world religions... The stories of mass conversions appear miraculous to them, and so they are. In the heretical movements which the churches fear and persecute, the same kind of miracle turns against themselves and the injuries thus inflicted on their bodies are painful and unforgettable... What they want in contrast to this is an obsequious flock, It is customary to regard the faithful as sheep and to praise them for their submissiveness.

In another chapter he describes four traits of the crowd:
1. The crowd always wants to grow.
2. Within the crowd there is equality.
3. The crowd loves density.
4. The crowd needs a direction.

RE: When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/26/19 2:51 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I don't know about the rest of you but I didn't develop and deepen a spiritual practice so I could fit in. It's the antithesis of fitting in, frankly, and yet it satisfies.

emoticon

Me neither. But historically not fitting in can be a dangerous thing to do. Especially when it comes to spirituality. 

I'm grateful for friends, families, and mentors who have basically told me, "We think you're wonderful just the way you are, but you should hide like 90% of that so society doesn't shun you." Loving, but realistic. I'm lucky to have found workplaces where being a bit weird is more or less the norm and it's competence that counts. I overheard someone at work say today, "I don't think any of us could survive in a regular office with normal people." Me, with mock indignance: "Are you talking about ME?" Everbody just laughed.

RE: When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/26/19 6:38 PM as a reply to Andromeda.
Normality is overrated.

Now I’m tremendously curious about that 90%. emoticon

RE: When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/27/19 2:51 AM as a reply to Andromeda.
Andromeda:

I was feeling lonely and sad awhile back and asked a mentor, "Where do I fit in?" His reply: "You don't. And you never will." Brutal.

Ah brutal honesty! I have mostly made peace with the reality of not fitting in anywhere. I can't even try to take on the group mind. Sometimes I wonder though? Could this be a step on the spiritual ladder? Drink the water and become like everybody else? At least become like everybody else within a spiritual group and take on their group mind.....

Andromeda I’m happy to hear that you have found that kind of workplaces. I’ve always hid myself to some degree at mine, painful. Slowly executing on my plan to not have to work again.

Defiantly dreaming more of being a Sage than a Mage……..

Can totally see have this could be labeled escapism.....

RE: When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/27/19 5:38 AM as a reply to Jyet.
The thought of becoming like everyone else within a spiritual group fills me with horror. Not my cup of tea. Doesn't sound like a very awake way to live. What would be the purpose of that?

The reality of not fitting in anywhere is something I've had to make my peace with again and again. I still need human connection just like everyone else and feel a strong urge to contribute to the wider world, though, so I keep working at doing that skillfully while also not submitting to conformity and groupthink. And not freaking people out too much by being overly honest at the wrong time. It's a tricky balance. I was neurodivergent from the beginning and deep spiritual practice has increased that, so I keep finding new parts of myself that don't fit in and having to integrate them.

As for workplace environments, I've worked hard over many years to be able to carve out accepting niches for myself. And I still hide a lot, more than most people--I'm a very private person anyway. But the combination of accepting environment plus having done so much work on myself in terms of communication/social skills plus spiritual practice means that it's mostly comfortable and rewarding rather than painful. Most of the time, I function as a sort of role actor and I do so joyfully. Wearing the mask of a professional persona is a good way to lose oneself, immerse oneself in experience with others, and get shit done efficiently and effectively. As Shakespeare put it, all the world's a stage. And work for me has been a very important part of practice for many reasons, not least of which that it challenges my ability to remain present under pressure. If we never put ourselves in difficult situations then we can't grow.

RE: When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/27/19 5:56 AM as a reply to Andromeda.
I stopped trying to fit in long ago, although I do make an effort to keep people comfortable. I find that there are ways of not fitting in that make people relax about their own ways of not fitting in, and that can be an important contribution. I enjoy talking about diversity in ways of functioning, and luckily many people around me appreciate that. I suppose the rest of them have fled away by now.

RE: When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/27/19 5:59 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:

Now I’m tremendously curious about that 90%. emoticon

I really set myself up for that one, didn't I? emoticon

It is mostly just the tendency to have very intense and often unusual interests and not caring about a lot the things most people do. That combined with a sort of Teflon resistance to socialization, plus having been raised by parents with some of these traits and spending a lot of time alone especially early on in life.

RE: When the Waters Were Changed
Answer
4/27/19 6:02 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I stopped trying to fit in long ago, although I do make an effort to keep people comfortable. I find that there are ways of not fitting in that make people relax about their own ways of not fitting in, and that can be an important contribution. I enjoy talking about diversity in ways of functioning, and luckily many people around me appreciate that. I suppose the rest of them have fled away by now.

That's key in my experience--I try to make other people comfortable. And when you get right down to it, there's really no such thing as "normal" and everybody is weird in their own way, so working to help others feel accepted really is an important  contribution.