Stamina Issues - Discussion
Stamina Issues
Howard Clegg, modified 13 Years ago at 11/30/10 9:44 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 11/30/10 9:44 AM
Stamina Issues
Posts: 61 Join Date: 10/15/10 Recent Posts
Hi Everybody
I'm running in to a problem with my practice that maybe some wiser heads can help me with.
First a quick update:
I've moved up to 3 hours sitting practice a day in the last week or so. I do a half hour first thing as a warm up. The quality is usually poor to fair, but is essential to clean out the cob webs. The second sit at about ten is much better, I usually access equanimity fairly quickly, maybe 5 to 10 mins in and pretty much stay there for an hour. I adjust my seat after 30 mins this disrupts the flow a little but is worthwhile as it greatly mitigates any stiffness towards the end of the hour.
Then a break of an hour or so, then another one hour sit as before. If I'm in good space I might extend the sit for another half hour if it feels right. Then lunch, work at 3.30pm. Home at 9.30pm and another half hour sit as soon as I get in, maybe extended to an hour. Bed at midnight.
Practice is standard Mahasi as advised here and in Ingram's book with reference to "practical Insight Meditation." I try to note as many sensations as possible as quickly and accuratlely as possible for as long as possible.
I stay with the presented objects pretty well with maybe a couple of lapses of maybe a couple of mins, with a few more, smaller, excursions. My attention goes in waves, razor sharp for a bit, then falls away, back up to the edge again and push on a bit further, fall back a bit. Relax a bit and push on. And so on.
My experience of equanimity deepens throughout the sit. And I come off the cushion fairly buzzing. States that were new to me last week are normal today. I don't know how fast I am noting it feels much faster later in the hour than earlier. Even though I can here a ticking clock in my sitting space, I'm not sure I could really say. In any case I've been concentrating on bringing mental objects and involuntary body movements into direct observation during the last few days so I'm not at full speed any way.
So, long story short. Is this sustainable? I've only ever done one retreat, (10 days Goenka) so I have no real experience going at this pace. I've done 2 hours/day for long periods but this feels like new territory for me. I have a head of steam at the moment want to take advantage. My health problems have virtually disappeared since I stepped up the pace and integrating with life is no problem after a few initial wobbles. If anything I have more energy and connection than ever.
But are there problems down the road that I should be aware of?
Secondly at the end of my hour sits, I often get very fuzzy and unable to stay with the practice for maybe the last 10-12 mins. I feels like simple tiredness, but off the cushion I'm fine. In fact I'm zingy. I have lots of energy and sleep well. I understand that retreats are often structured to manage these kind of problems. Any ideas?
To infinity and beyond ect
Howard
I'm running in to a problem with my practice that maybe some wiser heads can help me with.
First a quick update:
I've moved up to 3 hours sitting practice a day in the last week or so. I do a half hour first thing as a warm up. The quality is usually poor to fair, but is essential to clean out the cob webs. The second sit at about ten is much better, I usually access equanimity fairly quickly, maybe 5 to 10 mins in and pretty much stay there for an hour. I adjust my seat after 30 mins this disrupts the flow a little but is worthwhile as it greatly mitigates any stiffness towards the end of the hour.
Then a break of an hour or so, then another one hour sit as before. If I'm in good space I might extend the sit for another half hour if it feels right. Then lunch, work at 3.30pm. Home at 9.30pm and another half hour sit as soon as I get in, maybe extended to an hour. Bed at midnight.
Practice is standard Mahasi as advised here and in Ingram's book with reference to "practical Insight Meditation." I try to note as many sensations as possible as quickly and accuratlely as possible for as long as possible.
I stay with the presented objects pretty well with maybe a couple of lapses of maybe a couple of mins, with a few more, smaller, excursions. My attention goes in waves, razor sharp for a bit, then falls away, back up to the edge again and push on a bit further, fall back a bit. Relax a bit and push on. And so on.
My experience of equanimity deepens throughout the sit. And I come off the cushion fairly buzzing. States that were new to me last week are normal today. I don't know how fast I am noting it feels much faster later in the hour than earlier. Even though I can here a ticking clock in my sitting space, I'm not sure I could really say. In any case I've been concentrating on bringing mental objects and involuntary body movements into direct observation during the last few days so I'm not at full speed any way.
So, long story short. Is this sustainable? I've only ever done one retreat, (10 days Goenka) so I have no real experience going at this pace. I've done 2 hours/day for long periods but this feels like new territory for me. I have a head of steam at the moment want to take advantage. My health problems have virtually disappeared since I stepped up the pace and integrating with life is no problem after a few initial wobbles. If anything I have more energy and connection than ever.
But are there problems down the road that I should be aware of?
Secondly at the end of my hour sits, I often get very fuzzy and unable to stay with the practice for maybe the last 10-12 mins. I feels like simple tiredness, but off the cushion I'm fine. In fact I'm zingy. I have lots of energy and sleep well. I understand that retreats are often structured to manage these kind of problems. Any ideas?
To infinity and beyond ect
Howard
Bruno Loff, modified 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 5:10 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 5:08 AM
RE: Stamina Issues
Posts: 1097 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Howard, judging by your last two posts, I would wager that you did get stream entry, and are now getting into first path A&P.
My experience of first path was: I got super energised everything-is-great meditation-is-the-best thing, and then I became so super-orgasmic-blissy that it didn't feel that great anymore (in this path it became really clear that intense pleasure really resembles pain). I had to work really hard to ground the excess energy --- I remember at some point listening to the softest classical music would provoke tumultuous ecstatic aesthetic feelings. Eventually this turned into dark night for one more round, and I needed to get to equanimity again. For me getting to equanimity in this path required more "grounding energy" rather than "pushing through" (which was the decisive factor in getting stream entry), and it seems that insight into the non-satisfactoriness of phenomena was the turning point into equanimity.
Whatever it is, I hope you're having fun and enjoying your social/professional/whatever life as well as your practice.
My experience of first path was: I got super energised everything-is-great meditation-is-the-best thing, and then I became so super-orgasmic-blissy that it didn't feel that great anymore (in this path it became really clear that intense pleasure really resembles pain). I had to work really hard to ground the excess energy --- I remember at some point listening to the softest classical music would provoke tumultuous ecstatic aesthetic feelings. Eventually this turned into dark night for one more round, and I needed to get to equanimity again. For me getting to equanimity in this path required more "grounding energy" rather than "pushing through" (which was the decisive factor in getting stream entry), and it seems that insight into the non-satisfactoriness of phenomena was the turning point into equanimity.
Whatever it is, I hope you're having fun and enjoying your social/professional/whatever life as well as your practice.
Howard Clegg, modified 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 7:50 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 7:50 AM
RE: Stamina Issues
Posts: 61 Join Date: 10/15/10 Recent Posts
Bruno,
That is quite the kindest thing any one has ever said to me. Especially since I have spent the day and most of last night considering exactly how big an idiot I have made of my self. Your comments about "excess energy" ring a big bell. I had effortless energy for about 9 hours. Mindfulness was well nigh perfect. I could switch between objects and hold them for as long as I liked but with a sweeping panoramic sense behind them. I could hold and observe my mental objects indefinatlley with no sense of strain. Stop and switch to physical objects at will with no sense of rupture or effort and then switch back immediatley.
I would like to write more and will do but, I have a pressing need to sit or rather lie down. As of 9 pm last night I became convinced that this episode was nothing more than A&P silliness; and had shot my bolt; and that I had made a public fool of my self; and so on for hours and hours. Sitting reduced the intensity and enabled me to calm down a bit, but I don't think I went anywhere near equanimity. Oddly I slept well and woke early and refreshed. I have a day off and have spent a enjoyable day Christmas shopping with out a care in the world. The mental tirade was still running at full pelt but "normal" mindfulness started to return a couple of hours ago. I have been much less concerned by this "mindstorm" than I would otherwise have been. However most of the other benefits that I experienced yesterday appear to have faded and as of half an hour ago I was fairly resigned to the experience being great fun but a false alarm.
Now it appears that something interesting may have happened after all. In any case, I am confused yet again and need some time to contemplate, gently and diligently. And hopefully constructively.
Thanks so much for your post.
Howard
PS. Profuse gratitude to all at DHO, which ever way this turns out, my practice has accelerated to an extent that I would not have believed possible a few short months ago. So nothing is lost.
That is quite the kindest thing any one has ever said to me. Especially since I have spent the day and most of last night considering exactly how big an idiot I have made of my self. Your comments about "excess energy" ring a big bell. I had effortless energy for about 9 hours. Mindfulness was well nigh perfect. I could switch between objects and hold them for as long as I liked but with a sweeping panoramic sense behind them. I could hold and observe my mental objects indefinatlley with no sense of strain. Stop and switch to physical objects at will with no sense of rupture or effort and then switch back immediatley.
I would like to write more and will do but, I have a pressing need to sit or rather lie down. As of 9 pm last night I became convinced that this episode was nothing more than A&P silliness; and had shot my bolt; and that I had made a public fool of my self; and so on for hours and hours. Sitting reduced the intensity and enabled me to calm down a bit, but I don't think I went anywhere near equanimity. Oddly I slept well and woke early and refreshed. I have a day off and have spent a enjoyable day Christmas shopping with out a care in the world. The mental tirade was still running at full pelt but "normal" mindfulness started to return a couple of hours ago. I have been much less concerned by this "mindstorm" than I would otherwise have been. However most of the other benefits that I experienced yesterday appear to have faded and as of half an hour ago I was fairly resigned to the experience being great fun but a false alarm.
Now it appears that something interesting may have happened after all. In any case, I am confused yet again and need some time to contemplate, gently and diligently. And hopefully constructively.
Thanks so much for your post.
Howard
PS. Profuse gratitude to all at DHO, which ever way this turns out, my practice has accelerated to an extent that I would not have believed possible a few short months ago. So nothing is lost.
Howard Clegg, modified 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 10:52 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 10:52 AM
RE: Stamina Issues
Posts: 61 Join Date: 10/15/10 Recent Posts
Bruno
Me again, I've had a chance to sit for half an hour and let things settle, I managed to access equanimity for a while and feel much better for it.
Bruno, you said:
This does actually seem to fit from one perspective. Having sat for a while now it is now abundantly clear to me that I have spent all morning and most of the afternoon in Reobservation. I even said "mindstorm" in my last post and did not click. The problem was that it was fierce and relentless (what a dick, what a dick, what a dick) but I did not care too much for some reason and I was busy distracting myself. As soon as I stopped this, just after I posted, I saw the full force of it and realised what was going on. As is usual it crumpled fairly quickly in meditation and now I don't feel like a dick, or rather I'm not telling my self that any more.
I can't remember being in Reobservation for a long long time and its fair to say that I've spent a big chunk of the last month in equanimity. In fact last Saturday I was in and out, but mainly in, equanimity, all day, even though I was at work doing some fairly demanding things. That very night was the point at which the suspected cessation event occurred.
Three days then passed before yesterday's episode. During that time some very odd stuff happened. Not odd in the sense that I had dreams or visions. Much more prosaic but much more profound.
I work with a man who is usually the most difficult and demanding person in any given situation or group of people. I usually find him exhausting to be around and work with. Now, not. Our relationship now appears to be perfect in every way. He loves me, I love him. This fact is the source of one of the suspected "cycles and fruitions" that I mentioned, or rather shouted about, yesterday. More later.
In fact, since Saturday night all my relationships have improved, nothing seems to bother me. I have always had a problem with boundaries. Now, not. I know where the line is now and something in me communicates this to other people. Not spectacular but a game changer for me. Again, more later.
That is until last night. I had been full of love all day, pumping it out like a fire hose. Coming up to the end of my shift I was tired and started to loose the thread. I think I got a bit too excited about cycles and fruitions. Lets assume for a moment that I do actually have first path and can see cycles and fruitions. Its very easy to see them in every damn little thing. If you bear in mind that my understanding of the states and stages is still very sketchy, and the only one I see clearly is equanimity and then add to that the fact that I was in and out of equanimity all day. Then add that my understanding of the process is that as soon as equanimity kicks in I need to be receptive enough to spot and respond to the external trigger. Then respond in an appropriate way that successfully catches and expresses the essence of the whole thing. Oh, and I have to smile when I'm doing it. Then add a complex social situation, plus work stress, plus the fact that half of the people that I work with are actually, officially, crazy. Its amazing that I "clocked off" just feeling a bit frayed at the edges and annoyed because I had missed an awful lot of fruitions. Madness, just madness.
But I still had loads of energy, but as soon as I got home and saw that nobody had commented on my big deal steam entry post, even though it was only 4pm US time on a work day. Madness. So from that point on was stupid, vain, arrogant, immature in as many creative ways as its possible to visit in a 3 hour period. But during that time i made some lovely food that I enjoyed, watched some great TV, and danced to some very loud music. Oh, and I also sat for half and hour. Madness.
My mind was going so crazy that I took a sleeping pill, but I had no faith that it would work because they are very mild and normally don't work for that kind of mindstorm, but I do not remember my head hitting the pillow and I slept like a baby.
I awoke refreshed, deep in Reobservation but also not giving a damn. The rest you know.
So if your are correct Bruno, I should be in Equanimity and looking for one of those pesky triggers. Damn you stream entry!
I have to say I don't feel like I'm Equanimity, but I will sit when I finish this and I fairly confident that I will be able to access it. I don't feel particularly enlightened, either. I feel old and cranky, but oddly this is perfectly okay. There is a self behind these eyes, and I don't feel like I'm following my body around watching it do fascinating stuff entirely unaided. My thoughts are not very well behaved and my back hurts. Like I said, Madness.
Peace
Howard
Me again, I've had a chance to sit for half an hour and let things settle, I managed to access equanimity for a while and feel much better for it.
Bruno, you said:
Howard, judging by your last two posts, I would wager that you did get stream entry, and are now getting into first path A&P.
This does actually seem to fit from one perspective. Having sat for a while now it is now abundantly clear to me that I have spent all morning and most of the afternoon in Reobservation. I even said "mindstorm" in my last post and did not click. The problem was that it was fierce and relentless (what a dick, what a dick, what a dick) but I did not care too much for some reason and I was busy distracting myself. As soon as I stopped this, just after I posted, I saw the full force of it and realised what was going on. As is usual it crumpled fairly quickly in meditation and now I don't feel like a dick, or rather I'm not telling my self that any more.
I can't remember being in Reobservation for a long long time and its fair to say that I've spent a big chunk of the last month in equanimity. In fact last Saturday I was in and out, but mainly in, equanimity, all day, even though I was at work doing some fairly demanding things. That very night was the point at which the suspected cessation event occurred.
Three days then passed before yesterday's episode. During that time some very odd stuff happened. Not odd in the sense that I had dreams or visions. Much more prosaic but much more profound.
I work with a man who is usually the most difficult and demanding person in any given situation or group of people. I usually find him exhausting to be around and work with. Now, not. Our relationship now appears to be perfect in every way. He loves me, I love him. This fact is the source of one of the suspected "cycles and fruitions" that I mentioned, or rather shouted about, yesterday. More later.
In fact, since Saturday night all my relationships have improved, nothing seems to bother me. I have always had a problem with boundaries. Now, not. I know where the line is now and something in me communicates this to other people. Not spectacular but a game changer for me. Again, more later.
That is until last night. I had been full of love all day, pumping it out like a fire hose. Coming up to the end of my shift I was tired and started to loose the thread. I think I got a bit too excited about cycles and fruitions. Lets assume for a moment that I do actually have first path and can see cycles and fruitions. Its very easy to see them in every damn little thing. If you bear in mind that my understanding of the states and stages is still very sketchy, and the only one I see clearly is equanimity and then add to that the fact that I was in and out of equanimity all day. Then add that my understanding of the process is that as soon as equanimity kicks in I need to be receptive enough to spot and respond to the external trigger. Then respond in an appropriate way that successfully catches and expresses the essence of the whole thing. Oh, and I have to smile when I'm doing it. Then add a complex social situation, plus work stress, plus the fact that half of the people that I work with are actually, officially, crazy. Its amazing that I "clocked off" just feeling a bit frayed at the edges and annoyed because I had missed an awful lot of fruitions. Madness, just madness.
But I still had loads of energy, but as soon as I got home and saw that nobody had commented on my big deal steam entry post, even though it was only 4pm US time on a work day. Madness. So from that point on was stupid, vain, arrogant, immature in as many creative ways as its possible to visit in a 3 hour period. But during that time i made some lovely food that I enjoyed, watched some great TV, and danced to some very loud music. Oh, and I also sat for half and hour. Madness.
My mind was going so crazy that I took a sleeping pill, but I had no faith that it would work because they are very mild and normally don't work for that kind of mindstorm, but I do not remember my head hitting the pillow and I slept like a baby.
I awoke refreshed, deep in Reobservation but also not giving a damn. The rest you know.
So if your are correct Bruno, I should be in Equanimity and looking for one of those pesky triggers. Damn you stream entry!
I have to say I don't feel like I'm Equanimity, but I will sit when I finish this and I fairly confident that I will be able to access it. I don't feel particularly enlightened, either. I feel old and cranky, but oddly this is perfectly okay. There is a self behind these eyes, and I don't feel like I'm following my body around watching it do fascinating stuff entirely unaided. My thoughts are not very well behaved and my back hurts. Like I said, Madness.
Peace
Howard
tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 11:24 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 11:24 AM
RE: Stamina Issues
Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent PostsBruno Loff:
Howard, judging by your last two posts, I would wager that you did get stream entry, and are now getting into first path A&P.
if he got stream entry, then this is probably review.
Bruno Loff, modified 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 12:15 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 12:13 PM
RE: Stamina Issues
Posts: 1097 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Yes, for me the review stage of the first path lasted a few days (still on retreat), and kind of exploded into an A&P in the course of a week. It quickly went from "I'm deeply at peace" to "I'm deeply ecstatic / all is love / etc".
tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 2:09 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 2:09 PM
RE: Stamina Issues
Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent PostsBruno Loff:
Yes, for me the review stage of the first path lasted a few days (still on retreat), and kind of exploded into an A&P in the course of a week. It quickly went from "I'm deeply at peace" to "I'm deeply ecstatic / all is love / etc".
assuming that howard has gotten stream entry, i very much recommend that he become familiar with the path's review stage rather than do as you did by pressing on quickly (and somewhat manically). among the benefits gained in doing so are the time to integrate into daily life the more challenging aspects of the perspectival shift which has occurred (such as the inevitable increase in concentration, direct insight into the three characteristics, and different relationship with the sense of identity), the opportunity to gain further insight into the nanas/knowleges (including how to reattain fruition knowledge), and the sheer pleasure of resting after a job well done. also, the chance to remember how to enjoy the little things in life, which is worth knowing for later and which a long spell in the pre-path dark night can have led one to have forgotten.
the days immediately following stream entry are valuable and ought to be spent wisely. what has changed? what has stayed the same? how do the three characteristics now touch one's life?
the way to practice in review is to relax effort and let mindfulness direct itself. a meditator who has practised mahasi-style (the noting method) should, upon sitting down, observe what is immediately the case (what things there are to note/to notice). doing this, he should be able to attain to the stage of arising and passing away at will and to subsequently cycle through the knowledges up to fruition. he should practise this again and again, with the same kind of intimacy with and enjoyment of the territory as has someone who is sitting in a garden he has himself cultivated which has now come to flower.
tarin
Howard Clegg, modified 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 3:48 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 3:48 PM
RE: Stamina Issues
Posts: 61 Join Date: 10/15/10 Recent Posts
Err... there's an awful lot to process here.
Tarin, you mentioned review. I have done lots of reading about pre-path but nothing about post. It occurred to me in the car a while ago that I'm spending a lot of time furiously churning experiences and insights, past and present and "shaking it all down." I have very little control over this it feels compulsive. Is this review? Also while in what I was assuming to be post path reobservation, I was also doing this "churning" thing. So I was simultaneously finding new insights or "bits that fit" and chastising myself at the same time. I think this is why the reobservation rumbled on for so long. When I sat for a little while and reattained equanimity the chastising fell away but the churning soon fired up again and continues.
Tarin
This sounds straight forward and fun. I have sat a couple of times since yesterday. I have no inclination to go beyond the half hour. All the passion of two/three days ago has gone it all feels a bit fragile. I've not actually tried any noting as things have been too chaotic. The last session involved me churning insights, my mind went straight to this and some "a-ha" moments fell out from the process. I was reluctant to redirect my mind towards "normal" objects. Does this sound healthy.
Should I be aiming for any particular length of sit or overall daily practice target in terms of time?
Do you think sleep will be a problem?
Thanks
Howard
Tarin, you mentioned review. I have done lots of reading about pre-path but nothing about post. It occurred to me in the car a while ago that I'm spending a lot of time furiously churning experiences and insights, past and present and "shaking it all down." I have very little control over this it feels compulsive. Is this review? Also while in what I was assuming to be post path reobservation, I was also doing this "churning" thing. So I was simultaneously finding new insights or "bits that fit" and chastising myself at the same time. I think this is why the reobservation rumbled on for so long. When I sat for a little while and reattained equanimity the chastising fell away but the churning soon fired up again and continues.
Tarin
the way to practice in review is to relax effort and let mindfulness direct itself. a meditator who has practised mahasi-style (the noting method) should, upon sitting down, observe what is immediately the case (what things there are to note/to notice). doing this, he should be able to attain to the stage of arising and passing away at will and to subsequently cycle through the knowledges up to fruition. he should practise this again and again, with the same kind of intimacy with and enjoyment of the territory as has someone who is sitting in a garden he has himself cultivated which has now come to flower.
This sounds straight forward and fun. I have sat a couple of times since yesterday. I have no inclination to go beyond the half hour. All the passion of two/three days ago has gone it all feels a bit fragile. I've not actually tried any noting as things have been too chaotic. The last session involved me churning insights, my mind went straight to this and some "a-ha" moments fell out from the process. I was reluctant to redirect my mind towards "normal" objects. Does this sound healthy.
Should I be aiming for any particular length of sit or overall daily practice target in terms of time?
Do you think sleep will be a problem?
Thanks
Howard
Howard Clegg, modified 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 4:11 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 4:11 PM
RE: Stamina Issues
Posts: 61 Join Date: 10/15/10 Recent Posts
Actually scrub the last. The churning stopped abruptly about an hour ago. Its all bliss waves now. I think I know what to do with these.
Howard
Howard
tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 4:25 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 4:25 PM
RE: Stamina Issues (Answer)
Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent PostsHoward Clegg:
Tarin, you mentioned review. I have done lots of reading about pre-path but nothing about post.
i recommend you do some reading. the relevant chapters out of MCTB (from the relevant portions of 'the progress of insight' to the chapter 'beyond first path') and their counterparts in 'practical insight meditation' will inform you well.
Howard Clegg:
It occurred to me in the car a while ago that I'm spending a lot of time furiously churning experiences and insights, past and present and "shaking it all down." I have very little control over this it feels compulsive. Is this review? Also while in what I was assuming to be post path reobservation, I was also doing this "churning" thing. So I was simultaneously finding new insights or "bits that fit" and chastising myself at the same time.
no-self characteristic - it happens on its own.
Howard Clegg:
I think this is why the reobservation rumbled on for so long. When I sat for a little while and reattained equanimity the chastising fell away but the churning soon fired up again and continues.
no fruition?
Howard Clegg:
I have sat a couple of times since yesterday. I have no inclination to go beyond the half hour. All the passion of two/three days ago has gone it all feels a bit fragile. I've not actually tried any noting as things have been too chaotic. The last session involved me churning insights, my mind went straight to this and some "a-ha" moments fell out from the process. I was reluctant to redirect my mind towards "normal" objects. Does this sound healthy.
jog rather than run, amble rather than gallop. when you can relax without losing your mindfulness, there is nothing unhealthy about the 'fragility' of things happening on their own. when you see causality, you see that it is delicate.
Howard Clegg:
Should I be aiming for any particular length of sit or overall daily practice target in terms of time?
no. as regards your practice, stop thinking about time.
Howard Clegg:
Do you think sleep will be a problem?
do i think sleep will be a problem for what?
tarin
Bruno Loff, modified 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 4:46 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 4:46 PM
RE: Stamina Issues
Posts: 1097 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent PostsTarin:
assuming that howard has gotten stream entry, i very much recommend that he become familiar with the path's review stage rather than do as you did by pressing on quickly (and somewhat manically).
Howard in my opinion this is very sound, very good advice! I really couldn't agree more: really take it slowly and get to know the territory. I suspect I could really have benefitted from that. Don't push on to the "super-love," no matter how alluring it might seem, and although it seems like it is "the answer" or "the truth" or whatever, that is actually quite far from being the case.
All the best,
Bruno
Howard Clegg, modified 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 4:55 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 4:55 PM
RE: Stamina Issues
Posts: 61 Join Date: 10/15/10 Recent Posts
Hello Tarin,
Tarin:
Will do, directly.
Tarin:
Duh! How did I miss that. Ditto its cessation (see last post)
Tarin:
no fruition?
How about "Its okay Howard, its alright to be a stream enterer; or not as the case may be. Either way everything is going to be just fine...or not."
Tarin:
Gotcha
Tarin:
Already on this. I only have a little experience of Jhanas but it feels a bit like that, but no effort is required. Also when its over; its over. Do something else, go back for a bit more. Like cat napping. Thank god i'm not working today. I think I'll call in sick tomorrow.
Tarin:
Ignore this, now out of date, I will be fine... or not as the case may be.
Tarin:
i recommend you do some reading. the relevant chapters out of MCTB (from the relevant portions of 'the progress of insight' to the chapter 'beyond first path') and their counterparts in 'practical insight meditation' will inform you well.
Will do, directly.
Tarin:
no-self characteristic - it happens on its own.
Duh! How did I miss that. Ditto its cessation (see last post)
Tarin:
no fruition?
How about "Its okay Howard, its alright to be a stream enterer; or not as the case may be. Either way everything is going to be just fine...or not."
Tarin:
jog rather than run, amble rather than gallop. when you can relax without losing your mindfulness, there is nothing unhealthy about the 'fragility' of things happening on their own. when you see causality, you see that it is delicate.
Gotcha
Tarin:
no. as regards your practice, stop thinking about time.
Already on this. I only have a little experience of Jhanas but it feels a bit like that, but no effort is required. Also when its over; its over. Do something else, go back for a bit more. Like cat napping. Thank god i'm not working today. I think I'll call in sick tomorrow.
Tarin:
do i think sleep will be a problem for what?
Ignore this, now out of date, I will be fine... or not as the case may be.
Howard Clegg, modified 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 5:47 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 5:45 PM
RE: Stamina Issues
Posts: 61 Join Date: 10/15/10 Recent Posts
Bruno!
Excellent advice, I have no doubt and I will be following it closely. Unfortunately, yesterday I did not realise I had a choice , maybe that was why today has been such a car wreck, it was fun though, such fun. But I'm on the right track now, I feel safe...or not. If I had known this was all going to be so weird, I probably would not have been so keen on the idea.
But then again, I remember very clearly making a strong resolution a long time ago. "I don't care anymore! I want to get enlightened no matter what the cost!" Stupid, stupid.
However if I am honest. Would I have it any other way? Nay nay and trice nay!
Howard
Howard in my opinion this is very sound, very good advice! I really couldn't agree more: really take it slowly and get to know the territory. I suspect I could really have benefitted from that. Don't push on to the "super-love," no matter how alluring it might seem, and although it seems like it is "the answer" or "the truth" or whatever, that is actually quite far from being the case.
Excellent advice, I have no doubt and I will be following it closely. Unfortunately, yesterday I did not realise I had a choice , maybe that was why today has been such a car wreck, it was fun though, such fun. But I'm on the right track now, I feel safe...or not. If I had known this was all going to be so weird, I probably would not have been so keen on the idea.
But then again, I remember very clearly making a strong resolution a long time ago. "I don't care anymore! I want to get enlightened no matter what the cost!" Stupid, stupid.
However if I am honest. Would I have it any other way? Nay nay and trice nay!
Howard
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 7:14 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/2/10 7:14 PM
RE: Stamina Issues
Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent PostsHoward Clegg:
Bruno!
Excellent advice, I have no doubt and I will be following it closely. Unfortunately, yesterday I did not realise I had a choice , maybe that was why today has been such a car wreck, it was fun though, such fun. But I'm on the right track now, I feel safe...or not. If I had known this was all going to be so weird, I probably would not have been so keen on the idea.
But then again, I remember very clearly making a strong resolution a long time ago. "I don't care anymore! I want to get enlightened no matter what the cost!" Stupid, stupid.
However if I am honest. Would I have it any other way? Nay nay and trice nay!
Howard
Excellent advice, I have no doubt and I will be following it closely. Unfortunately, yesterday I did not realise I had a choice , maybe that was why today has been such a car wreck, it was fun though, such fun. But I'm on the right track now, I feel safe...or not. If I had known this was all going to be so weird, I probably would not have been so keen on the idea.
But then again, I remember very clearly making a strong resolution a long time ago. "I don't care anymore! I want to get enlightened no matter what the cost!" Stupid, stupid.
However if I am honest. Would I have it any other way? Nay nay and trice nay!
Howard
Sounds like you are having more fun than not! Fun with the "madness" too. Sounds like fun to me anyway! Also seems like if you can have fun with madness you have nothing to fear.
Howard Clegg, modified 13 Years ago at 12/3/10 4:11 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/3/10 4:11 AM
RE: Stamina Issues
Posts: 61 Join Date: 10/15/10 Recent Posts
Beoman
Yes, I know it must seem like that, but there have been many times when it was not very much fun at all. Sorry.
Sounds like you are having more fun than not! Fun with the "madness" too. Sounds like fun to me anyway! Also seems like if you can have fun with madness you have nothing to fear.
Yes, I know it must seem like that, but there have been many times when it was not very much fun at all. Sorry.
Howard Clegg, modified 13 Years ago at 12/3/10 4:51 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/3/10 4:37 AM
RE: Stamina Issues
Posts: 61 Join Date: 10/15/10 Recent Posts
Hiya
First Sit
My chakras have been going like the clappers this morning. All 7 pumping away like hearts. I also have two secondaries behind each shoulder blade and two more at the bottom rear on each side of my rib cage. On sitting down, noticed a large mental object, a big disco ball floating in front of my solar plexus. On first noticing, it had a strong sense of physicality which is difficult to describe. I thought for a moment that a shiny traffic bollard had materialized on the floor between my feet. Then realized it was spherical. Got distracted. On second noticing it was less clear, and physical sensation was that of vertigo plus tingling on the arms. The disco ball then melted and was absorbed into my solar plexus. On third noticing was very faint but physical sensations were the same as before.
My solar plexus chakra is by far the strongest, but my brow chakra is also strong. But it is below my brow, more like between my eyes. I have a strong sense of the its entry and exit point on the front and back of my head. Some systems have a second brow chakra below the first between eyes with a reverse flow. Some systems have hundreds of the damn things all over the place. I feel the urge to dig out my old yoga books, I also feel that I should resist this urge as this is just A&P and will pass soon enough.
Can I clarify something? My task at the moment is to re-acquire all the insight skills between A&P and fruition but in this new post path environment? This will happen naturally and in its own time, but I have to make sure that I am around enough to observe it properly? This is particularly important for me, because I did not properly acquire these skills the first time around?
Second Sit - 11am
About half an hour after first sit. All the action is now above the jaw line. The lower chakras are still firing but are now muted. Brow chakra now very pronounced, primary sensation is a semicircle of strong pressure around the inside of the left eye brow. But also further up the forehead and at the temples. Repeated noticing appears to extend the pressure up the forehead to the crown chakra where it stops abruptly for a while and tingles pleasantly. Then extends down the back of the head to the occipital ridge where it merges with a strong pre-existing pressure that is probably just due to a lack of sleep. Ditto the headache. Verbalised thought objects are now muted, this is a relief.
Still A&P I think.
Third Sit - 12pm (20 mins, feels like 5)
Sudden feelings of heaviness and lethargy prompt this sit. Strong pressure is now in the lower nose and sinuses extending around in a band to the occipital ridge. Repeated noticing appears to extend the pressure up the back of the head half way to the crown. Pressure increases at the sinuses. Brow chakra is present and closer to its "traditional" position, but muted. Pressure extends down the back and front of torso to the belly. Noticing the the breath properly for the first time releases relaxation and bliss waves from the upper back and chest to the brow chakra which is now in its traditional position and pulsing more strongly. Off the cushion, brow and other "pressures" clearly noticeable. Other sensations of the larger environment now more noticeable, significant? Maybe. Now believe that the lethergy and heaviness is just indigestion.
Is this all too anal?
Still A&P i think.
Fourth Sit - 2pm (10min only short as I have to go to work)
All about the heart chakra this time. Big pulsing and bliss waves up the back of the neck to the crown. Crown and Brow activated but muted. More important, I've just noticed that slipping into and out of "meditation" is effortless and no pre-amble or warm up is neccesary. I either note the objects or not. I can interrupt the practice at will and return with no sense of dislocation. There is no aversion to practice but not particular attraction either, just keen curiosity. Hinderances are abundantly present but they have no power to distract. They are just objects to note or not as the case may be. And just as valid as anything else. I suppose they are everything else really. This feels like no big deal. Fascinating.
A&P? Suddenly I don't care.
Out in the world 2.30pm till 9pm (work & social)
So, how does all this measure up in the real world? Fascinating. Not so much for what is new but for what has gone. Or rather disappeared without trace. Whole categories of mental objects have just gone. I find it very difficult to think about the past or the future, not because I can't, but because It doesn't strike me as a productive activity anymore. I did not notice this until I had a brief vision of a future situation that I know will be uncomfortable. It was very brief but fairly painful. It was a real shock because I suddenly realised that I had not had any thoughts of the future for, well, I could not remember the last time I had thought about the future.
Also the mental echoes of caused by unpleasant feelings are just gone. So If I'm in an unpleasant situation with lots of painful feelings floating around, I feel much like I always did. But as soon as the cause of the feelings has gone, the anxiety and stress just evaporate. It feel like I am suddenly at rest. I am relaxed, because I am relaxed most of the time at the moment. But what I mean is that I feel as if I have suddenly, physically, come to rest. Difficult to describe. All this leaves a huge and very pleasant, space in my head. Time appears to go slower.
Craving and aversion are still there but they are not "sticky." I love chocolate and have been obsessed by it in the past. Now if faced with it now, I feel a large measure of my former craving and it is just as difficult to manage but if I put it in the cupboard and do some thing else, the craving fades very quickly and does not return.
I could write loads more, but I want to find out if I still enjoy some of my normal activites. Curiosity is my most prominent feeling at the moment. Maybe watch an action movie. I have no clue how I will respond to it now. I suspect that I will enjoy it much more. I hope so.
Oddly I am still unconcerned by all of this.
Thanks again
Howard
First Sit
My chakras have been going like the clappers this morning. All 7 pumping away like hearts. I also have two secondaries behind each shoulder blade and two more at the bottom rear on each side of my rib cage. On sitting down, noticed a large mental object, a big disco ball floating in front of my solar plexus. On first noticing, it had a strong sense of physicality which is difficult to describe. I thought for a moment that a shiny traffic bollard had materialized on the floor between my feet. Then realized it was spherical. Got distracted. On second noticing it was less clear, and physical sensation was that of vertigo plus tingling on the arms. The disco ball then melted and was absorbed into my solar plexus. On third noticing was very faint but physical sensations were the same as before.
My solar plexus chakra is by far the strongest, but my brow chakra is also strong. But it is below my brow, more like between my eyes. I have a strong sense of the its entry and exit point on the front and back of my head. Some systems have a second brow chakra below the first between eyes with a reverse flow. Some systems have hundreds of the damn things all over the place. I feel the urge to dig out my old yoga books, I also feel that I should resist this urge as this is just A&P and will pass soon enough.
Can I clarify something? My task at the moment is to re-acquire all the insight skills between A&P and fruition but in this new post path environment? This will happen naturally and in its own time, but I have to make sure that I am around enough to observe it properly? This is particularly important for me, because I did not properly acquire these skills the first time around?
Second Sit - 11am
About half an hour after first sit. All the action is now above the jaw line. The lower chakras are still firing but are now muted. Brow chakra now very pronounced, primary sensation is a semicircle of strong pressure around the inside of the left eye brow. But also further up the forehead and at the temples. Repeated noticing appears to extend the pressure up the forehead to the crown chakra where it stops abruptly for a while and tingles pleasantly. Then extends down the back of the head to the occipital ridge where it merges with a strong pre-existing pressure that is probably just due to a lack of sleep. Ditto the headache. Verbalised thought objects are now muted, this is a relief.
Still A&P I think.
Third Sit - 12pm (20 mins, feels like 5)
Sudden feelings of heaviness and lethargy prompt this sit. Strong pressure is now in the lower nose and sinuses extending around in a band to the occipital ridge. Repeated noticing appears to extend the pressure up the back of the head half way to the crown. Pressure increases at the sinuses. Brow chakra is present and closer to its "traditional" position, but muted. Pressure extends down the back and front of torso to the belly. Noticing the the breath properly for the first time releases relaxation and bliss waves from the upper back and chest to the brow chakra which is now in its traditional position and pulsing more strongly. Off the cushion, brow and other "pressures" clearly noticeable. Other sensations of the larger environment now more noticeable, significant? Maybe. Now believe that the lethergy and heaviness is just indigestion.
Is this all too anal?
Still A&P i think.
Fourth Sit - 2pm (10min only short as I have to go to work)
All about the heart chakra this time. Big pulsing and bliss waves up the back of the neck to the crown. Crown and Brow activated but muted. More important, I've just noticed that slipping into and out of "meditation" is effortless and no pre-amble or warm up is neccesary. I either note the objects or not. I can interrupt the practice at will and return with no sense of dislocation. There is no aversion to practice but not particular attraction either, just keen curiosity. Hinderances are abundantly present but they have no power to distract. They are just objects to note or not as the case may be. And just as valid as anything else. I suppose they are everything else really. This feels like no big deal. Fascinating.
A&P? Suddenly I don't care.
Out in the world 2.30pm till 9pm (work & social)
So, how does all this measure up in the real world? Fascinating. Not so much for what is new but for what has gone. Or rather disappeared without trace. Whole categories of mental objects have just gone. I find it very difficult to think about the past or the future, not because I can't, but because It doesn't strike me as a productive activity anymore. I did not notice this until I had a brief vision of a future situation that I know will be uncomfortable. It was very brief but fairly painful. It was a real shock because I suddenly realised that I had not had any thoughts of the future for, well, I could not remember the last time I had thought about the future.
Also the mental echoes of caused by unpleasant feelings are just gone. So If I'm in an unpleasant situation with lots of painful feelings floating around, I feel much like I always did. But as soon as the cause of the feelings has gone, the anxiety and stress just evaporate. It feel like I am suddenly at rest. I am relaxed, because I am relaxed most of the time at the moment. But what I mean is that I feel as if I have suddenly, physically, come to rest. Difficult to describe. All this leaves a huge and very pleasant, space in my head. Time appears to go slower.
Craving and aversion are still there but they are not "sticky." I love chocolate and have been obsessed by it in the past. Now if faced with it now, I feel a large measure of my former craving and it is just as difficult to manage but if I put it in the cupboard and do some thing else, the craving fades very quickly and does not return.
I could write loads more, but I want to find out if I still enjoy some of my normal activites. Curiosity is my most prominent feeling at the moment. Maybe watch an action movie. I have no clue how I will respond to it now. I suspect that I will enjoy it much more. I hope so.
Oddly I am still unconcerned by all of this.
Thanks again
Howard
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 13 Years ago at 12/3/10 6:24 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/3/10 6:24 PM
RE: Stamina Issues
Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent PostsHoward Clegg:
Beoman
Yes, I know it must seem like that, but there have been many times when it was not very much fun at all. Sorry.
Sounds like you are having more fun than not! Fun with the "madness" too. Sounds like fun to me anyway! Also seems like if you can have fun with madness you have nothing to fear.
Yes, I know it must seem like that, but there have been many times when it was not very much fun at all. Sorry.
Heh I just got stream entry too I think.. and I know what you mean. I'm sitting here feeling suffering and stuff being like "aw this should have been gone by now..."
Fascinating to read your post about your insights, though. It rings true with me too. And it brings some hope that this is a more transformative change than I thought. I'm only a day in, though. The only non-meditative insight I've had, or maybe the most major one, was while talking with a friend about his problems. I just saw how much of it was caused by just himself and how he looked at things, and not from the problems themselves. Also interesting about past/future, and immediate relaxation... "Living in the Now" eh?
Howard Clegg, modified 13 Years ago at 12/3/10 6:55 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/3/10 6:55 PM
RE: Stamina Issues
Posts: 61 Join Date: 10/15/10 Recent Posts
Hello
Didn't want to edit the last post yet again. I need a new page. So here we are.
For those who are following this increasingly weird journey, I think I am now in Dissolution.
I have no energy, no aversion or craving, even the gentle curiosity that exhibited a hour or so ago has gone. The action movie experiment was a wash out, no interest, the same with video games. Everything is an effort now, but its past midnight here so I might just be, you know, tired. It all feels so different to a couple of hours ago. When I has "fascinated" by everything.
So, feeling a mild aversion to sitting. That is exactly what I did. And it went as follows:
I had an unexpectedly difficult time getting in to the flow this time. By difficult I mean a momentary sense of not wanting to do it. Then it was all deep, warm, full body, bliss waves. With the illusion of moving bright lights shining in to my closed eyes. Then the bliss waves and bright lights subsided and cool full body tingly sensations took over. Finally, my bodily sensations almost completely faded and I had a hard time finding my hands at one point. Nodded off a couple of times.
I take this to mean that I may well be in dissolution.
But
MCTB says
This describes pretty much exactly how I feel now. If this is the case then this is a good thing. But so fast? And what happened to Fear, Disgust, Desire for Deliverance ect? I suppose I was at work and not exactly paying attention. Oh actually, a whole other thing concerning intentionality, free will and whether the cosmos is just a big mirror with a wicked sense of humour, thing happened while I was at work. I think I need to go to bed and have a long sleep.
Howard
Didn't want to edit the last post yet again. I need a new page. So here we are.
For those who are following this increasingly weird journey, I think I am now in Dissolution.
I have no energy, no aversion or craving, even the gentle curiosity that exhibited a hour or so ago has gone. The action movie experiment was a wash out, no interest, the same with video games. Everything is an effort now, but its past midnight here so I might just be, you know, tired. It all feels so different to a couple of hours ago. When I has "fascinated" by everything.
So, feeling a mild aversion to sitting. That is exactly what I did. And it went as follows:
I had an unexpectedly difficult time getting in to the flow this time. By difficult I mean a momentary sense of not wanting to do it. Then it was all deep, warm, full body, bliss waves. With the illusion of moving bright lights shining in to my closed eyes. Then the bliss waves and bright lights subsided and cool full body tingly sensations took over. Finally, my bodily sensations almost completely faded and I had a hard time finding my hands at one point. Nodded off a couple of times.
I take this to mean that I may well be in dissolution.
But
MCTB says
That said, when a progress of insight is completed, one may notice the mind simply not doing lots of useless things it used to do, and it may seem impossible that it even was able to do them.
This describes pretty much exactly how I feel now. If this is the case then this is a good thing. But so fast? And what happened to Fear, Disgust, Desire for Deliverance ect? I suppose I was at work and not exactly paying attention. Oh actually, a whole other thing concerning intentionality, free will and whether the cosmos is just a big mirror with a wicked sense of humour, thing happened while I was at work. I think I need to go to bed and have a long sleep.
Howard
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 13 Years ago at 12/4/10 1:19 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/4/10 1:19 AM
RE: Stamina Issues
Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
Hey ,just wanted to suggest something. This advice is rather contrary to tarin's, but just as an experiment, sit down to meditate, then think "A&P" and incline your mind. And see what happens. Then think "Dissolution" and incline your mind, and see what happens. Etc., go through all the stages like this. Are you able to just shift between them or do you not notice any shifts? Maybe it can help you realize that you already have access to all of them? Take it with a grain of salt though as tarin and others are much more experienced than me. But after the experiment I would go back to what you are doing.