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Why is awakening so great?

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Why is awakening so great? Hibiscus Kid 4/26/19 8:41 PM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Not two, not one 4/27/19 1:38 AM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Devinder Makker 4/30/19 1:47 PM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Not two, not one 5/1/19 2:23 AM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Not two, not one 5/1/19 2:30 AM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Papa Che Dusko 6/23/20 12:59 PM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Noah D 4/27/19 4:13 AM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Andromeda 4/27/19 6:08 AM
RE: Why is awakening so great? T DC 4/28/19 5:25 PM
RE: Why is awakening so great? T DC 5/3/19 11:26 PM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Andromeda 4/29/19 5:07 AM
RE: Why is awakening so great? John 6/23/20 12:32 PM
RE: Why is awakening so great? John 6/23/20 12:41 PM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Ni Nurta 6/24/20 1:32 AM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Tim Farrington 6/24/20 2:13 AM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Ni Nurta 6/24/20 7:12 AM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Tim Farrington 6/24/20 8:32 AM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Eric G 4/28/19 9:03 AM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Mike Smirnoff 5/1/19 3:04 AM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Laurel Carrington 6/23/20 10:10 AM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Zachary 6/23/20 12:16 PM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Brandon Dayton 6/23/20 1:21 PM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Tim Farrington 6/24/20 2:23 AM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Pepe 6/29/20 6:11 PM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Ni Nurta 6/29/20 4:50 PM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Sam Gentile 6/23/20 12:24 PM
RE: Why is awakening so great? John 6/23/20 12:38 PM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Jim Smith 6/23/20 7:35 PM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Jim Smith 6/23/20 7:24 PM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Tim Farrington 6/23/20 10:36 PM
RE: Why is awakening so great? SigmaTropic 6/23/20 11:42 PM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Tim Farrington 6/24/20 12:22 AM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/24/20 1:16 AM
RE: Why is awakening so great? Ni Nurta 6/24/20 2:05 AM
Why is awakening so great?
Answer
4/26/19 8:41 PM
Besides the popular/traditional answer "awakening is good for nothing"... why should anyone pursue this?

I'm in need of some motivation. Please feel free to let it fly! 

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
4/27/19 1:38 AM as a reply to Hibiscus Kid.
Hey Kiddo,

I really appreciated your good wishes a month or so ago, so I guess I owe you a reply  :-)  So here is one perspective on how the whole thing proceeds.

First
- Your certainty about yourself and the world gets exploded by some energetic rapture or glimpse of luminosity.  Which of course leads to all sorts of stuff coming up, as your carefully crafted defence mechanisms are also disrupted.

Then
- You get a glimpse of Truth that knocks the supports away from the central delusion in your life. Whole heaps of angst and suffering fall right away because they were based on that delusion. Those levels of angst and suffering will never ever return. It is an extraordinary milestone.

Then
- A whole series of false starts and shifts eventually culminate in thorough understanding and control of form, feeling, perception, voilitions and consciousness. It’s like you have finally been given the user manual to yourself!  There is some difficult stuff on the way as you figure out and rewire your control mechanisms, but eventually you break free of unconscious urges and can mostly choose your state of mind and actions (but only when you think to do so).

Then
- Then you work steadily through sensory development and the chain of dependent arising until the whole thing inverts, and that central subject (you) and object (the world) blends into something ineffable, with access to a blissful and unified expanded perception in a state of flow. This is an almost perfect state, except it comes and goes, and there is still a knot of something there, a nagging imperfection, a stone in the sandal, and your effort and identity get a bit devoted to being in this state of non-dual bliss.

And finally
- Unbinding. Seeing through the last knot of clinging and going to the state beyond states. This is the ordinary humanity. Back to the beginning.  Waking up happy every day, feeling completely liberated, not needing anything. It is The Cure - the death of the memetic virus that had been inhabiting your mind and pushing your buttons. It’s like you are  a giant steampunk factory with levers and dials and gears and belts and subsidiary machines, and the central powerplant just gets disintegrated. You are liberated.

There is still pain, and actually a little suffering as the subsidiary machines (sankharas) run on for a bit, and the dukka nanas seem to be have a bodily rhythm and so continue on in some way, but with much much less force. You can easily access whatever absorptions you had achieved, but being in an absoprtion (even non-dual bliss) becomes completely optional.

And you would rather be unbound and looking at the stain on the wall in a jail cell, than not be unbound and living with all the money, drugs, artworks, connections, cars, sex that you can imagine. Once you are rid of it, you don’t want that damn memetic virus back.  All it does is makes you suffer to get what it thinks it wants, but can never actually have. 

But you have no limits now, no fetters. So morality is the last training, if you want to live in society.

Just my ravings.

Malcolm

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
4/27/19 4:13 AM as a reply to Hibiscus Kid.
If you're measuring against some inner or outer life dysfunction, the benefit of awakening is obvious.

If you're not, then it's likely less obvious.  But even beyond coarse 'issues', what else is there in life that permanently improves every moment of waking & dreaming experience, for the remainder of your time in life?  It's a pretty good deal.  It just feels good to be alive, to breathe, to exist & be not separate from experience/other people/nature/whatever.  It feels good to *know* this in the bones, moment by moment.  To directly percieve the fundamental situation of a continuos space of experience without that nagging tension of conscious points within the space fighting against each other, vying for supremacy.  Without that nagging itch for subtle permanence & completion.  A sense of allowing the gestalt to unfold is a type of thrill that muggles will never fully know.  

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
4/27/19 6:08 AM as a reply to Hibiscus Kid.
If I were given two options:

1. Die tomorrow, which would mean just one more day with things as they are, or
2. Live another 50 years in good health plus winning the lottery but having to go back to things as they were

I would choose option 1 without hesitation.

What's going on with your practice, Kid?

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
4/28/19 9:03 AM as a reply to Hibiscus Kid.
Peace, in a word.

Even very egoically fulfilling lives, as near as I can figure, appear to hide an inner life of suffering.  Do you want to lay down some burdens?  Stop pushing and pulling so much?

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
4/28/19 5:25 PM as a reply to Andromeda.
Hibiscus Kid:

Besides the popular/traditional answer "awakening is good for nothing"... why should anyone pursue this?

I'm in need of some motivation. Please feel free to let it fly!

If I had to describe the last few weeks: Impatience and doubt were really huge. It felt like there was no point in meditiation. I'd rather be the 25 year old that I am and behave as such. I am at a weird point in my life where I just want to be an irresponsible 25 year old, but I really don't think I can ignore 'dharma practice'. 

Trying to find the balance between awakening quickly, yet still having a social life, and not burning myself out. 



It sounds like maybe you are somewhat burned out with dharma practice.  It's always ok to relax your practice or take a break, there's no external judgement saying that "you need to practice meditation 100% all the time".

I have personally found that pursuing the path to awakening has been extremely worthwhile, and it has changed my life for the better very dramatically.  However, the success I had on the path was directly related to my burning desire to overcome the suffering that I felt.  

If you're not suffering dramatically, there's no reason to force yourself to practice.  Feel free to swing more towards the social life end of the balance, and then apply more effort towards meditation if that feels like something you want or need to do. 

If your practice is feeling stagnant, it is totally appropriate to back off and revaluate your goals and desires regarding meditation - relight the spark as it were.

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
4/29/19 5:07 AM as a reply to Andromeda.
Thanks for the kind words, Kid. 

There's a lot I could say, but actually what you're writing reminds me of a verse that I passed along to someone else at a similar age/stage. She found it very helpful, so I'm going to copy it for you here. It's from Ken McLeod's translation of Tokme Zongpo's Thirty-Seven Practices of a Bodhisattva, aka Reflections on Silver River. Let me know if it stirs up anything for you.

Verse I

Right now you have a good boat, fully equipped and
available--hard to find.
To free yourself and others from the sea of samsara,
Day and night, constantly,
Study, reflect, and meditate--this is the practice of
a bodhisattva.

Commentary:

You are standing on a wooden dock. It is old and falling apart. In front of you, the open expanse of the ocean extends to the horizon. Below your feet is a boat, well stocked and fully equipped. You know it is, because you took care in preparing it. 

It is the only boat at the dock. The other moorings are empty, forgotten.

You are not exactly sure how you came to be here, but you do know you cannot turn your back on the ocean. Yet you hesitate to step into the boat.

What stops you?

From the town behind you, you hear a constant hum of activity: cars, buses, people crying their wares in the market, the faint wail of an ambulance, a police car or a fire truck racing to the next emergency. You know that your friends, your colleagues and your relatives are all busy--providing for their familes, moving ahead in their lives, making their mark on the world.

You are here looking at the ocean, the boat gently bobbing at your feet as waves lap against the dock.

The world behind you seems simultaneously full and empty. There are many enjoyments and rewards. You have tasted them. But you cannot escape a sense of futility and a gnawing insistence that wonders, "Is this all there is?" Your friends sometimes touch the same feeling, but they turn away from it quickly--a gap in the web of life that is never explored.

You cannot turn away. You wonder how they can. And you wonder what, if anything, you can do for them so that they do not turn away. You wonder because you are pretty sure that you are missing something, and that is why you prepared the boat. And you think they might be missing something, too. But you do not know what.

What will it take for you to step into the boat?

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
4/30/19 1:47 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
I am curious about the post by "curious " if this is your personal experience?

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
5/1/19 2:23 AM as a reply to Devinder Makker.
Well a mix of my experience and my interpreation others' experiences.  I think these things can present a bit differently for different people, and some of them repeat or cycle in and out.  And in the case of the third and fourth parts of my five part analysis, they are overlapping clusters that develop partly in serial and partly in parallel.  So, as I said, one perspective.  emoticon

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
5/1/19 2:30 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Hibiscus Kid:
Hey Malcolm,

You don't owe me anything emoticon The fact that you kept a practice log at all was a boon to myself and others. I am bummed that you were not able to make it to the NYC meet up with Daniel. I really wanted to meet you since it seems like your practice log up until that point was getting the last knot to untangle. If you're ever available to Skype, I'd love to hear more about your path and how it unfolded. I'm sincerely happy for you!

As far as my question: that is pretty much what I wanted to hear/read. I really appreciate the framework you laid out. I am very familiar with the 4 path model, but your model seems very related to Western psychology in a way. I can relate to some of it, but I also have the feeling that I haven't even hit the first stage of your framework in a way (or not how you experienced it at least). Energetic rapture and luminosity would not describe my experience if I had to be honest, especially when luminosity seems to show up post 3rd path. 

This is what really does it for me though:   
And you would rather be unbound and looking at the stain on the wall in a jail cell, than not be unbound and living with all the money, drugs, artworks, connections, cars, sex that you can imagine. Once you are rid of it, you don’t want that damn memetic virus back.  All it does is makes you suffer to get what it thinks it wants, but can never actually have.  
At this point in my young life, I really want all of that stuff to some degree (sans drugs maybe), but I have seen how it doesn't really get it done. Even though all that stuff is sexy, one can still have/participate in that sort of lifestyle and be miserable. I suppose that is why that quote is so good for me to hear. 

My reason for making the post: The flip side is, I am only 25 and everyone around me is pursuing their careers, social lives, exotic vacations, nice things, etc. I have the means to pursue the same material stuff, but I am also afraid to invest multiple hours a day into this awakening project. It is pretty lonely as there are very few people who are pragmatic dharma oriented. There is a lot more to this point, more than I want to expand upon here though. 

Anyway, thank you for your response. It is super inspiring and I really hope that we can talk soon! Either via Skype or face to face since you don't seem so far from CT, although I could be wrong! Good luck with the sankharas you are probably working with now! I really hope to be able to experience the same territory some day!

Thank you for everything Malcolm! Please feel free to rave any time: I'll always read what you have to say! 

Warm regards,

Alex

Thanks Alex. emoticon Sure PM me on the DhO message system and we can arrange to chat sometime.  But I am actually in New Zealand ... a looong way away.  It might take a while to coordinate a time as I am pretty busy at the moment - but let's try!

What I have described as raptures or glimpses of luminosity present in all sorts of ways, but yes I am pointing to A&P type experiences. I had a couple of strong glimpses of luminosity as a young man, and a couple more mild ones a few years ago. I didn't really know what they were at the time, but now I know they were indeed somewhere on that non-dual luminious spectrum.  That's what I understand the Tibetan's to say too, that you can get glimpses, and then later develop it, and then have it fully developed, and then (in some systems) go beyond it.

Malcolm

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
5/1/19 3:04 AM as a reply to Hibiscus Kid.
Hello! 
I saw your post, so I thought I'll answer.
For me, awakening is about getting to "understand the self" (or no self, or no permanent abiding self -- or whatever -- words don't capture it likely) -- let us say, to get to the truth of the "self".
Is anything else more important than understanding the true nature of the ourselves? In other words, what is more important than solving the problem of our very own existence? These are some things that, when I think about, I get motivated some times.

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
5/3/19 11:26 PM as a reply to T DC.
Hibiscus Kid:
Hello T DC! 

I've seen your posts both here and on the reddit stream entry page! I suppose that I have been burned out for quite a while by some people's measures, but maybe pushing through some of the doubt is worthwhile...

From what I've seen, you progressed quite rapidly within a short amount of time which is really inspiring. At the same time, it induces a bit of fear in me since I feel that any break in practice will lead to regression! I feel that dharma practice will be a harder nut for me to crack than it was for you. These things vary from person to person. 

I feel a certain level of suffereing on a daily basis, mostly related to my lifestyle and the fact that I feel stuck and am afraid to make big changes in an effort to find more meaning in my career. I also notice the suffering inherent with the various issues that come up when living in society: the various things that cause contraction are endless. 

The irony here is that I want to get to a point with all of this where I can just carry on with my life. I have a feeling that it will take some time. 

Do you have any additional thoughts? If you're ever available to talk on the phone or via skype, please let me know! I'm interested in how this all unfolded for you!

Hey HK, I'm happy to skype sometime, I'll send you a pm.  One thing I thought of with your post, specifically regarding suffering around your career, is that there is a certain tension between meditative progression and action in the world.  Call if the eightfold path if you like, but the point is that although meditative progression can indeed make us happier, more functional individuals, our real world actions and situation also have a very significant bearing on our life satisfaction.  One way I have heard this put is, what kind of life do you want to wake up to?

Another angle - personally I was driven on the path because I felt I would not be able to find genuine satisfaction in life without overcoming my mental delusion.  I found that progress on the path greatly enhanced my ability to live a productive and satisfying life, but as they say, "Let go a little, find a little peace.  Let go all the way, find complete peace".  I really could not take no for an answer and was driven to fully eradicate my suffering, so that I could truly live a complete and happy life.  

What the path may bring for you, and how success on path will impact your life is for you to discover however, everyone's different.  emoticon

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/23/20 10:10 AM as a reply to Hibiscus Kid.
Let's bump this back to the front of the line! There's great stuff here, well worth remembering, plus maybe we can add to it.

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/23/20 12:16 PM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
Great idea, I take a look at this thread every now and then for inspiration emoticon

Here's a bit I jotted down from a Shinzen Young video about the value of Awakening.

"There’s no informed consent for enlightenment. People tend to overestimate or underestimate how wonderful the experience is. How wonderful is it? I would say anyone who has entered into the world of no-self, emptiness and wisdom-mind, who abides in that world, if you give them a choice between living one day knowing what they know and living an entire lifetime not knowing what they know-- I can’t speak for everyone but I would say most people who live in that world would rather have one day knowing what they know rather than a lifetime of not knowing."

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/23/20 12:24 PM as a reply to Hibiscus Kid.
Hibiscus Kid:
Besides the popular/traditional answer "awakening is good for nothing"... why should anyone pursue this?

I'm in need of some motivation. Please feel free to let it fly! 

Hey buddy,

Not that I know much of anything but Kenneth Folk said it like this in his Three Speed Transmission, "In response to my questions about enlightenment, my teacher, Bill Hamilton used to say, "Highly recomended...can't tell you why."

Its not that he wasn't willing to tell me. He was. He tried to explain it to me. But whenever he said something, I heard something else. He knew that the best thing he could do for me was to encourage me to find out for myself. They're aren't any shortcuts. You just have to find out for yourself.

I never try to sell this to anybody. I just work with the energy people bring. If you're asking his question, you are probab;y already hooked. There's no point in fighting it. Find out for yourself what all the fuss is about. Maybe you'll find out right now, as you read this. Maybe it will take you twenty years. So what? Do you really have a choice?"

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/23/20 12:32 PM as a reply to Andromeda.
This is just claiming unreasonably high attainment.

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/23/20 12:38 PM as a reply to Hibiscus Kid.
Hibiscus Kid:
Besides the popular/traditional answer "awakening is good for nothing"... why should anyone pursue this?

I'm in need of some motivation. Please feel free to let it fly! 

You are not pursuing it though. If the suffering is so great meditation happens by itself. I think in the beginning stages one must muster up motivation and courage to do it because the benefits are intangible yet. But with time your body naturally goes into meditation. 

Even while not being completely done yet, when shit hits the fan meditation happens by itself pretty much.

I guess you could say the mind gets conditioned to enter meditation automatically when suffering happens.

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/23/20 12:41 PM as a reply to Andromeda.
Andromeda:
If I were given two options:

1. Die tomorrow, which would mean just one more day with things as they are, or
2. Live another 50 years in good health plus winning the lottery but having to go back to things as they were

I would choose option 1 without hesitation.

What's going on with your practice, Kid?


This is pretty much claming a very high attainment.
How are you so sure in those 50 years you aren't going to deepen your realization or figure out there's a lot of new ground to cover?

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/23/20 12:59 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Not two, not one:
Hey Kiddo,

I really appreciated your good wishes a month or so ago, so I guess I owe you a reply  :-)  So here is one perspective on how the whole thing proceeds.

First
- Your certainty about yourself and the world gets exploded by some energetic rapture or glimpse of luminosity.  Which of course leads to all sorts of stuff coming up, as your carefully crafted defence mechanisms are also disrupted.

Then
- You get a glimpse of Truth that knocks the supports away from the central delusion in your life. Whole heaps of angst and suffering fall right away because they were based on that delusion. Those levels of angst and suffering will never ever return. It is an extraordinary milestone.

Then
- A whole series of false starts and shifts eventually culminate in thorough understanding and control of form, feeling, perception, voilitions and consciousness. It’s like you have finally been given the user manual to yourself!  There is some difficult stuff on the way as you figure out and rewire your control mechanisms, but eventually you break free of unconscious urges and can mostly choose your state of mind and actions (but only when you think to do so).

Then
- Then you work steadily through sensory development and the chain of dependent arising until the whole thing inverts, and that central subject (you) and object (the world) blends into something ineffable, with access to a blissful and unified expanded perception in a state of flow. This is an almost perfect state, except it comes and goes, and there is still a knot of something there, a nagging imperfection, a stone in the sandal, and your effort and identity get a bit devoted to being in this state of non-dual bliss.

And finally
- Unbinding. Seeing through the last knot of clinging and going to the state beyond states. This is the ordinary humanity. Back to the beginning.  Waking up happy every day, feeling completely liberated, not needing anything. It is The Cure - the death of the memetic virus that had been inhabiting your mind and pushing your buttons. It’s like you are  a giant steampunk factory with levers and dials and gears and belts and subsidiary machines, and the central powerplant just gets disintegrated. You are liberated.

There is still pain, and actually a little suffering as the subsidiary machines (sankharas) run on for a bit, and the dukka nanas seem to be have a bodily rhythm and so continue on in some way, but with much much less force. You can easily access whatever absorptions you had achieved, but being in an absoprtion (even non-dual bliss) becomes completely optional.

And you would rather be unbound and looking at the stain on the wall in a jail cell, than not be unbound and living with all the money, drugs, artworks, connections, cars, sex that you can imagine. Once you are rid of it, you don’t want that damn memetic virus back.  All it does is makes you suffer to get what it thinks it wants, but can never actually have. 

But you have no limits now, no fetters. So morality is the last training, if you want to live in society.

Just my ravings.

Malcolm

Wow emoticon didn't read through other replies but I guess I don't have to emoticon 
Nice one! Thanks! 

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/23/20 1:21 PM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
Laurel Carrington:
Let's bump this back to the front of the line! There's great stuff here, well worth remembering, plus maybe we can add to it.

Thanks for reviving this, Laurel. So many great hidden threads buried in here for those of us who haven't been around awhile.

I like this descriptiong from Daniel Ingram, time stamped from when the description begins.

https://youtu.be/W3kHi0LLzJs#t=30m25s


RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/23/20 7:35 PM as a reply to Hibiscus Kid.
Hibiscus Kid:
Besides the popular/traditional answer "awakening is good for nothing"... why should anyone pursue this?

I'm in need of some motivation. Please feel free to let it fly! 

To become free from the ten fetters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment#Path_and_Fruit
A Stream-enterer (Sotāpanna) is free from:

1. Identity view (Pali: sakkāya-diṭṭhi), the belief that there is an unchanging self or soul in the five impermanent skandhas[4][5]
2. Attachment to rites and rituals
3. Doubt about the teachings

A Once-returner (Sakadāgāmin) has greatly attenuated:

4. Sensual desire
5. Ill will
A Non-returner (Anāgāmi) is free from:

4. Sensual desire
5. Ill will

An Arahant is free from all of the five lower fetters and the five higher fetters, which are:

6. Attachment to the four meditative absorptions, which have form (rupa jhana)
7. Attachment to the four formless absorptions (ārupa jhana)
8. Conceit
9. Restlessness
10. Ignorance

I think it is correct to measure awakening by freedom from the fetters but I don't recognize any stages or any initial entry point. In my view everyone has some level of enlightenment (freedom from the fetters) and they can gradually increase it by practicing meditation and mindfulness.

I think reducing attachment to these fetters will make me a better human being (more compassionate, forgiving, tolerant, humble - reducing suffering for others), and will reduce suffering for myself.

Increasing freedom from the fetters occurs because meditation and mindfulness practices initially increase equanimity by decreasing mental turbulence etc. Later increasing feelings of anatta arise, the result of which is that you are less troubled by unpleasant emotions (the attachments and aversions through which the fetters bind you) because you feel that there is no one experiencing the emotions.

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/23/20 7:24 PM as a reply to Hibiscus Kid.
Hibiscus Kid:
Besides the popular/traditional answer "awakening is good for nothing"... why should anyone pursue this?

I'm in need of some motivation. Please feel free to let it fly! 


If you feel you need motivation I recommend samatha, metta, or jhana meditation. I find that when the meditation feels good, I don't need motivation. It is self-reinforcing because the pleasant feelings provide positive reinforcement. 

Also I find that I naturally fall into mindfulness practics and meditation is much easier and more natural if I avoid carbohydrate rich snacks and sugary foods. For me (and maybe others?) too much sugar and other carbohydrates does something subtle to my brain that interferes with practice. I don't really feel any different, I only notice the effect on my ability to concentrate in meditation and mindfulness.

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/23/20 10:36 PM as a reply to Hibiscus Kid.
Hibiscus Kid:
Besides the popular/traditional answer "awakening is good for nothing"... why should anyone pursue this?

I'm in need of some motivation. Please feel free to let it fly! 


awakening is good for nothing.

love, tim

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/23/20 11:42 PM as a reply to Hibiscus Kid.
The best part of waking up, 

Is Folger's in your cup!


This is my best explanation for why awakening is desirable. It's like coffee. 

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/24/20 12:22 AM as a reply to SigmaTropic.
emoticon
 Folger's is too expensive. but otherwise, with generic coffee, +1.

love, tim

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/24/20 1:16 AM as a reply to SigmaTropic.
SigmaTropic:
The best part of waking up, 

Is Folger's in your cup!


This is my best explanation for why awakening is desirable. It's like coffee. 
Yeah. I don't drink coffee but it's a good metaphor. I have found that since stream entry the baseline has shifted into actually liking to wake up in the morning most of the time. I can't really put my finger on why. I just seem to appreciate the experience more. 

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/24/20 1:32 AM as a reply to John.
Andromeda:
This is pretty much claming a very high attainment.
How are you so sure in those 50 years you aren't going to deepen your realization or figure out there's a lot of new ground to cover?

Not necessarily. It could also mean that previous state was terrible.

I for one consider my default state as quite good and while it had its issues I would still not reduce my lifespan 18250 times just to avoid it emoticon

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/24/20 2:05 AM as a reply to SigmaTropic.
SigmaTropic:
This is my best explanation for why awakening is desirable. It's like coffee. 
Coffee... awakening... it is just how my morning routine looks like emoticon

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/24/20 2:13 AM as a reply to John.
John:
Andromeda:
If I were given two options:

1. Die tomorrow, which would mean just one more day with things as they are, or
2. Live another 50 years in good health plus winning the lottery but having to go back to things as they were

I would choose option 1 without hesitation.

What's going on with your practice, Kid?


This is pretty much claming a very high attainment.
How are you so sure in those 50 years you aren't going to deepen your realization or figure out there's a lot of new ground to cover?

I'm with john on this. i have a gentle lean toward death. Every outbreath, that gift of the release of what is used up, is bliss, and peace, and sweet relief. And on the cusp, without bias, if the next in-breath does not come of itself, that is preferable, gently. and if the in-breath comes, as it has so far, beyond any argument or reading by me, so be it, and i'll just have to fucking see what's what, and do what presents itself as interesting enough to do.

or fucking do nothing, that lovely moment.

Coffee definitely helps. I'm not like Linda, waking up ready to go on the via positiva, with joy in it all. I wake up wishing hard that i was dead. Coffee and meditation, watching every breath for that exit door still there, alwasy there, are my way to remind me that i can sleep when i'm dead, as tom waits sings so beautifully. second cup of coffee, i may even stir my lazy ass to do some work. but only if that work doesn't fucking piss me off. i'd die at any point in the day, a thousand times, rather than swallow some of the shit the day inevitably presents.

love, tim

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/24/20 2:23 AM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Brandon Dayton:
Laurel Carrington:
Let's bump this back to the front of the line! There's great stuff here, well worth remembering, plus maybe we can add to it.

Thanks for reviving this, Laurel. So many great hidden threads buried in here for those of us who haven't been around awhile.

I like this descriptiong from Daniel Ingram, time stamped from when the description begins.

https://youtu.be/W3kHi0LLzJs#t=30m25s


the riff Daniel goes on from the merge point, as Brandon has it set up on his link--- https://youtu.be/W3kHi0LLzJs#t=30m25s
  --- is perfect, beautiful , very golly-gosh daniel at his gee-whiz best, utterly endearing. I clicked off when the interviewer said, "So there really is some real world advantage . . ." because that made me nauseous, and angry. Hopefully daniel told the guy that wasn't the fucking point, and by the time stamp the interview went on just fine. but i'm not that polite. i would probably have said, Jeezus fookin kreest, am i talking to the fucking ceiling fan here? and walked home, however far it was. i can't afford cabs these days. I certainly can't afford politness mosy of the time. Daniel is a rich man indeed.

love, tim

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/24/20 7:12 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
I'm with john on this. i have a gentle lean toward death. Every outbreath, that gift of the release of what is used up, is bliss, and peace, and sweet relief. And on the cusp, without bias, if the next in-breath does not come of itself, that is preferable, gently. and if the in-breath comes, as it has so far, beyond any argument or reading by me, so be it, and i'll just have to fucking see what's what, and do what presents itself as interesting enough to do.

That experience of sweet "relief" that you are talking about is something that I deem as very unskillful.
All it does long term is induce more suffering and even short term it is pretty low quality pleasure.

It is the best to eliminate it from experience completely. It rely on suffering and will stimulate suffering. It will also hinder efforts to find true solution to suffering.

Or in other words experiencing will cause depression and suicidal thoughts. Essence of relief is death/suicide...

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/24/20 8:32 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
Tim Farrington:
I'm with john on this. i have a gentle lean toward death. Every outbreath, that gift of the release of what is used up, is bliss, and peace, and sweet relief. And on the cusp, without bias, if the next in-breath does not come of itself, that is preferable, gently. and if the in-breath comes, as it has so far, beyond any argument or reading by me, so be it, and i'll just have to fucking see what's what, and do what presents itself as interesting enough to do.

That experience of sweet "relief" that you are talking about is something that I deem as very unskillful.
All it does long term is induce more suffering and even short term it is pretty low quality pleasure.

It is the best to eliminate it from experience completely. It rely on suffering and will stimulate suffering. It will also hinder efforts to find true solution to suffering.

Or in other words experiencing will cause depression and suicidal thoughts. Essence of relief is death/suicide...

Sri Ni Nurta,

Exactly! It is unskillful means for an unskilled laborer! anything else would require training that my unfortunate mental condition precludes.

still, any relief is a a relief, and i don't intend to live long enugh, depressed and suicidal and addicted to various substances guaranteed to shorten the lifespan, as i am, for it to mean shit what quality that pathetic and morbid pleasure is!

Thank you for this great feedback. I feel so seen, for myself, as i actually am. It is, dare i say it, a high-grade pleasure.

love, tim

RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/29/20 6:11 PM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Brandon Dayton:
I like this description from Daniel Ingram, time stamped from when the description begins.
https://youtu.be/W3kHi0LLzJs#t=30m25s

Thanks Brandon! 

I transcribed a couple of questions whose phenomenological answers seemed very interesting for practice. If any fellow member finds an error in the transcription, please let me know. At 35:49 there are some words I couldn't understand.

MaxAnte: What are some of the actual, real world, tangible benefits of full Enlightenment?

Daniel Ingram: This kind of painful process that was literally sort like a ‘low grade headache’ (best way to explain it) stopped. That was just delightful, and in its place there’s a sense of synchrony. Synchrony just feels really nice. Everything synchronizes with itself. Before, everything feels out of phase. There is this that and then my knowing of it. There where this that and then this, and I was here and I was there. There was this always sense of jarring out-of-phaseness, which somehow experientially is just unpleasant. It’s suffering. It’s a fundamental type of suffering.

And when that stopped, the sense of synchrony and naturalness is substantially more delightful, just experientially. And that keeps on being substantially more delightful, moment after moment. It’s like a pleasure you don’t get a tolerance to. It’s a niceness that every moment is just as nice as the moment before, in that specific way.

That doesn’t mean that things can’t be unpleasant, but that quality is also there, even in very unpleasant things. So I’m not meaning to say there’s not the perception of pain or that everything is always nice. It isn’t. There’s still pain, but that quality of synchrony is simply delightful and is always happening. Actually, I’ve come to appreciate it more as time has gone on it. Continues to sort of be like ‘yeah’, almost like there’s like … as it sort of cascades through all other aspects of mind and situations and conditioning.

It’s fascinating to see some memory –I may not have had in 20 years– come up, and now it arises in this totally different space, where identity is nothing like the solid sticky thing it was before. And now it’s just a thought and space. That rewires something in the brain that now that memory –which might have been painful or complicated– is now arising in a space that is so much more clear and open. And in which thought, rather than being contracted into, is literally just this super wispy thing in this big echoey room that is so much nicer … Also, there will be meetings and I’m looking around like I’m the only person in the room full-time. If you’re the person who’s really in the room and everybody else isn’t in the meeting, that’s a real advantage!

MaxAnte: So, you think there are some actually real-world advantages here that you’re experiencing ongoingly?

Daniel Ingram: Sure, because people are constantly like “oh, I wasn’t really present for that … I wasn’t really into that”. Well, now the cool thing about being awake is that the holodeck no longer being filtered through the serial line that was constantly getting interrupted, and turning to the imagined holodeck –there was another holodeck– would tuned out the sort of consensus holodeck when it’s tuned to its internal holodeck … well, that’s not happening in that way. The default is now the consensus holodeck (as much as anything can be a consensus when we all have our own advantage points).

Speaking in relative terms, but ignoring all the ontological problems –I don’t want to go into that–, basically the room and being in the room (or the space or the field or wherever you are) is the default. Whereas before, tuning out was the default. Being lost in thought was the default. The default mode network being activated to-not-really-be-here was the default. Now the natural default is to be here. And by the way, if I really need to, I can check my calendar and perform a cognitive task that for some reason like to do that high level function I really kind of need to tune out the room a little bit, that can happen. But then the room is back as soon as that stops. Whereas before, it was the other way around. This is substantially better.

The other thing is the proportionality, which is a hard thing to explain. 99% of this room –even if I’m in pain somewhere– has no pain. And this is the vast experience, so the whole room is the experience evenly in some kind of way. Let’s say I have a pain in my knee: it’s no bigger than it is. In comparison to the volume of the space, it’s still really small. And the mind is also not doing that contracted exaggerating thing it used to do, where it would take the pain or make this big thing out of it and ignore all the areas that were neutral or even pleasant, that it becomes the sort of fixation. Whereas (now) even when I have pain in one place, most other places are neutral and or might even feel nice.

And so, also things that feel nice are much easier to perceive as I’m here. You can’t see me now because this is an audio, but I’m moving my hands around and like the coolness of the air on my fingers, it’s delightful. There’s something about the echo in the room that sounds kind of cool, like even that little click of your fingers, like it has a sort of nice little snap to it. There’s the glistening of the light on your hair, which is just naturally kind of cool when it’s just allowed to be itself, and that sort of childlike wondrous way of people perceiving things when they’re just in it, like you’re watching a beautiful sunset, you forget about the day and you’re just in the beautiful colors …

Well, everything has something of that to it in some way, because there’s the immediate sensate experience and it’s wrought on rock (35:49?) because we get everything kind of processed, but as raw as you can get with the human brain that receives everything kind of processed, and so there’s something really nice about that. The proportionality of though also. So emotions are mostly thoughts and then you get contracted into the thought rather than having it just be this wispy thing in space. And then because when you contract into the thought it then becomes a huge part of your world and then that distorts how much of a reaction you have to it. And then that costs a much greater release of all the stress chemicals if you’re having some unpleasant thought, because the brain is now taking that as a total world or whatever you get lost in the anger or whatever and then that creates a whole much bigger stress response and all these chemicals.

Well now it’s not that they aren’t stressors and things, but the thought arises in the room, is proportional, and in terms of experience the thoughts are really small wispy things most of the time. And then the stress chemicals that result from that, even if it’s really unpleasant thought, are vastly less because the experience of it wasn’t contracted into and the brain didn’t freak out that now this is a total world cut off from most of the room, which again is fine, and in fact pretty nice. So, it’s not that it made all bad emotions go away, but the relationship to it and the physiology of it is really different.

And the envelope of these things thus is a lot different, meaning the sort of attack, sustain and decay –the music synthesizer terms in terms of sound–. The attack is really fast because things are clear, but the release is also really fast because the thought arises and then it disappears. And the maybe some little stress chemical arises and then those bodily sensations hang out for a little bit, and then they disappear. But there’s nothing like the sort of feedback loop in the way that it used to be before, where this hurts and this cost of the thought and this thing and then that causes stress chemicals and they would loop and loop and loop… and this really exaggerated distorted way long after the thing had happened. And you’re just sitting there most of the room is fine, like why is the brain doing that? It’s just torturing itself, it doesn’t have to. It doesn’t benefit from that. And so the default now is to not do that, whereas before the default was to do that. So it’s not like some small sort of short versions of that can’t happen in extreme circumstances, but it’s vastly shorter and it’s vastly milder. So that’s better.

All of those things have been substantial upgrades … like unbelievable upgrades. Like I would give it all the stuff I lost getting this, I would give that again and more … many more times, to get this. This is such a benefit in terms of the actual living feel of it. I can’t even tell you.

Does it perform exactly like the old text said it would? No. Does it beat the crap out of what I had before? Absolutely yes. And the cool thing is this is reproducible and it’s based on really straight forward assumptions, just sensate clarity about intentions, mental impressions, thoughts in the room, experience, spotty mind, Six Sense Doors, and just noticing that clearly. That’s really straight forward and portable. And so that’s one of the supercool things about it. And it actually is reproducible. So people were able to do this, they were able to tell me how to do it and it’s like ‘yeah!’ so I like that. It satisfies the empiricist in me. It’s very egalitarian. Like here you are, here’s your senses, perceive them clearly. This can be yours.



RE: Why is awakening so great?
Answer
6/29/20 4:50 PM as a reply to Pepe.
Pepe:
Brandon Dayton:
I like this description from Daniel Ingram, time stamped from when the description begins.
https://youtu.be/W3kHi0LLzJs#t=30m25s

Thanks Brandon! 

I transcribed a couple of questions whose phenomenological answers seemed very interesting for practice. If any fellow member finds an error in the transcription, please let me know. At 35:49 there are some words I couldn't understand.
Big thanks!

Based on this limited interview it would seem that Daniel's brain rewired itself to keep some kind of meta-process as his foreground task and from there all other processes get automatically scheduled to brain resources that are actually free and stay there as long as needed or as long as they not need to move elsewhere when eg. keeping them active for too long - which re-allocation happen when refering to this meta-process. This meta-process is most likely mix of 4th and 5th jhanas because he mentions small size of sensations which is main characteristic of 4th jhana and space which is main 5th jhana characteristic. When awareness is directly jumping between mental processes (what Daniel describes as his state in the past) it usually reuse large parts of the same parts of the brain which is very tiresome and require a lot of brain gymnastics like putting content of current memory to some kind of stack and then picking it up later. When however different processes are allocated to different parts of brain they can keep their internal state for quite some time thus it is much easier to do multi-tasking, effortlessly switch between objects of attention. Also any processes allocated to new free resources are not tiring but will actually generate pleasure. When processing anything content of part of brain which does it will be kept for some time inside the process itself so when switching attention nothing need to be done except keeping this part of the brain from completely going to rest. This is sort of half-activation state. When some time passes or there is indication these processed won't be needed anymore they can begin shutdown procedure which is pretty much the same as "safely remove hardware" before removing pendrive. After preparation is done part of the brain will go to rest and generate its own pleasure for some time.

This is how I see it. Personally I use something that works like that. the difference is that I put more emphasis internal structure of brain than doing management through keeping concentration on meta-processif itself. Daniel did much more Samatha practice and I only poked and peeked my brain and I can only do jhanas because I know how to do them so technical differences in practice manifest in differences in how mind is managed. I can also use meta-processes to do re-organization inside my brain and do so from time to time, especially when everything starts to get too convoluted for me to bother sorting it out. I rarely use 4th or 5th jhana for that. Each meta-state type has it own characteristics in how it organizes my brain and how I would then experience world so I tend to change it from time to time. I have my go to experience which I use the most but it is out of scope of this post I guess.

Note: this description is about self-management is pretty universal. Different meta-processes are used by different people at different times. (note: eg. cats are also people) Sense of self is usually such meta-process and it can work pretty well depending on how it is used. Issues happen because of degradation that can happen over time eg. using too small set of resources thus causing need to reuse small set of neurons over and over again. Maintenance is needed and of course when one knows jhanas then these jhanas can be directly used instead of sense of self and are much better for that and require less maintenance. Knowledge about how these things work can be used to further tweak mind to work even more differently than it tend to organize itself. Once new pathways are created by manually doing them they will tend to get scheduled automatically by meta-processes, especially those with which activation those pathways were created and/or used.