Stream Entry? Surely not.

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Howard Clegg, modified 13 Years ago at 12/1/10 9:34 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/1/10 7:48 AM

Stream Entry? Surely not.

Posts: 61 Join Date: 10/15/10 Recent Posts
Dear all

I have an awful suspicion that I might have got stream entry. I say awful because I will feel very silly If I have not, in fact, attained to this.

Anyway, here goes.

A while ago I had this experience:

Now, I am always aware that there are always lots of sensations going on around me that go un-noticed by me. As my attention shifts I am always aware that the place my attention ends up is one of innumerable possibilities. At the beginning of the sit I control the speed and subject matter a bit so that I can stay with it enough to progress through the stages. Eventually the process gets too fast and I just try to keep up. I have started to realise that my earlier belief that, noticing should have a sensation, was a hint of something else. The fact is, that the noticing always gets there faster than my awareness of the noticing. Feels like I am always late to the party. The sensation and the noticing of it have already relaxed and had a beer. I was thinking that the sensation is the sensation of the noticing. And the fact that I’m always late means that this process could go on quite happily without me. This means that awareness, all of it, is not me. I find this really disturbing.


At the time I was only referring to physical sensations not mental sensations. I did not make this clear at the time and for this I apologize.

3 nights ago I was about 40 mins into an hour sit. I was working to bring mental objects in to direct observation. Some progress had been made on this front. By slightly raising my eyes above the horizontal and "looking" at the area of space above and in front of my forehead I was able to see thoughts "dripping" into my stream of consciousness at a rate that was observable but not so fast as to "carry me off" as it were. Feeling rather pleased with my self I "looked" a bit closer and observed what I can only describe as sensations of "baby concepts" forming in the center of my head. And then observing them "harden" in to words. All very soft and gentle, rather beautiful actually. This process had a physical and an emotional component, but very faint.

Anyway, during the investigation of aforementioned sensations it suddenly occurred to me that they were really no different to physical sensations, and that the reason that I was having difficulty observing them was exactly the same; they were occurring and being noticed completely independently of me. I was just turning up late to the party, again. This was a shocker and I was duly shocked.

At some point during this existential crisis, I found myself facing a black hole, surrounded by a brilliant white, flashing halo set in black space that was some how "lit up" although it was more of a feeling than anything visual. I have no memory of how I got there and no sense of context for it. I was just there. It only lasted for the briefest of moments and then I had a strong sensation of my consciousness snapping me back to reality, rather like being yanked on a piece of over stretched elastic but instantaniously. More like an on/off switch.

I had no idea what to make of this and I spent a while pontificating, before deciding that it was probably nothing. But making a firm resolution to get full enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings as soon as practical, just to be on the safe side.

So I went on with my practice. Noting away happily, smugly almost. Then I moved, or rather my body moved, just to adjust my posture a little. And it was a huge shock to me, I suddenly realized that I had no control over this, also that I never had and never would, ever again. I had "known" this before but this was different by several orders of magnitude. The rest of the sit was torture observing my body doing all kinds of verboten stuff. Twitching, smiling, moving, stretching. It was rather like the having lived on an island and then suddenly finding out that the island was the big toe of a sleeping sea monster. Or facing a charging bull elephant armed only with BB gun. It seemed to me that since I had chased my sense of self out of physical and mental sensations it had retreated in to gesture, expression, and the ability to make lasagne. I spent the rest of the evening dumbfounded, just observing all the crazy stuff my body/mind was doing, all the usual stuff as it turns out, but it was much more fun just to watch. Relaxing too, so relaxing.

Since then, more of the same, just following my body/mind around and watching it do its thing. I told my boss today that "No I will not be coming in to work today during my time off." Patiently explaining why it was not necessary and that his boss had already made this clear to both of us. I would have done this anyway, but would have been acutely anxious about it for ages. Today, not a ripple, its not that I don't care, more that I am unable to. It's not even that I can see the pointlessness of it, I don't even get that far. I just can't do it.

So, I've been looking for the cycles; A&P through the stages up until fruition I believe. How I understand this is: You see something joyous or marvelous in your life. You explore this and enjoy it. Then you realize its limitations and how it is'nt perfect after all. Then you begin to doubt your prior sense of ease and simple joy, confusion sets in maybe a little desperation. So you start to examine these difficult sensations in order to get some relief. And with some urgency, as its all rather painful and you need to find a way out, fast. This intense examination boots you up to equanimity and a bit of temporary space to get an overview.

All of the above I have observed on at least 3 separate occasions whilst out-in-the-world over the last couple of days. These are the ones I have been able to observe clearly. It only dawned on me properly that I might have hit stream entry this morning. So I've been furiously reviewing the events of the last few days and i believe a pattern is emerging. Time precludes me going into detail, but I can if anybody wants me too.

I know, this is crazy. How can I be me and not me simultaneously? No idea. Don't care at the moment either.

Which brings us to fruitions. What are they? Not sure. What I have observed is that the tension of equanimity does not go away, it needs a trigger, a release. Off the cushion this appears to be provided by an external factor. A question, a gesture, a demand. My response to this is the fruition. It some how encapsulates and explains all the joy of A&P through the pain of dark night and balanced tension of equanimity. The whole lot collapses like a house of cards leaving you with the hard kernel of "truth," but most importantly no guilt or recrimination. You see what you did and why, you see the result clearly. Job done, move on. These opportunities occur all the time, we just don't see them because we are so damned attached to our little bit of real estate.

Oh my God, if you will excuse the mixed metaphor, but I am knackered. Let me know what you think. My head is spinning with all this, perspective would be a good thing right now.

Let me state clearly for the record, that I have never "seen" a formation or a "wave of suchness." Nada, no clue.

"I" remain perplexed, but strangely unconcerned as well.

Howard
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Shashank Dixit, modified 13 Years ago at 12/1/10 10:15 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/1/10 10:15 PM

RE: Stream Entry? Surely not.

Posts: 282 Join Date: 9/11/10 Recent Posts
I think the best way would be to ask yourself how you see the "I" now. Is there some permanent kind of a shift in the way you see it and how sure are you about it ? or is there any other fundamental shift in perception ?

When it comes to fruition I can describe it something like this :- at a certain stage you get 'lost' of what exactly you were investigating and then you get back to the investigating mode again ( notice that I say "get back to" , so there is some kind
of an unknowing break in between ). After that I cannot exactly recollect what were my exact last thoughts before that 'break'
and you feel you have maxed out..you feel 'done' to the max and at ease and you feel there is no further need to investigate
any formations...and then some nice bliss waves follow...However these are general frutitions and I believe that the frutition that comes along with a path moment has a different wow-factor to it especially the one at stream-entry.
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 13 Years ago at 12/1/10 10:51 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/1/10 10:51 PM

RE: Stream Entry? Surely not. (Answer)

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
That does sound transformative, and good guesses are things like stream entry when the shift is that big and lasting, though things like the A&P and all that always apply, but your descriptions are impressive.

You mentioned you had more if anyone was interested, and I am, so let it rip if you wish: whatever descriptive detail, phenomenological descriptions, observations, insights, guesses, gaps, discrepancies, etc. you wish to put out there would be interesting.

Big advice: keep practicing clearly, presently, neither too tightly or too loosely, and just see what happens as this all unfolds, as these moments provide all sorts of great clues to all sorts of things, some of which you may only appreciate years later.

Sounds like you have done diligent work, whatever this is.

Daniel
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Howard Clegg, modified 13 Years ago at 12/3/10 3:46 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/3/10 3:45 PM

RE: Stream Entry? Surely not.

Posts: 61 Join Date: 10/15/10 Recent Posts
Hello Daniel

Daniel
You mentioned you had more if anyone was interested, and I am, so let it rip if you wish: whatever descriptive detail, phenomenological descriptions, observations, insights, guesses, gaps, discrepancies, etc. you wish to put out there would be interesting.


I would very much like to post and will do so soon, and thank you for the invitation. All kinds of stuff that I thought was irrelevant and I had half forgotten is now very much at the fore front of my mind. It is interesting that how I am responding to what is unfolding now, is so closely conditioned by some of my very first practice experiences. I big picture is developing surprisingly rapidly and I would like to share it soon. However the small stuff is just blowing my socks off and I feel I need stay close to it right now. I am posting all this on the "Stamina Issues" thread if you are interested.

Daniel
Big advice: keep practicing clearly, presently, neither too tightly or too loosely, and just see what happens as this all unfolds, as these moments provide all sorts of great clues to all sorts of things, some of which you may only appreciate years later.


I did not understand this when I first read it, being so used to have to fight tooth and nail for every insight. Now, facing what seems like an avalanche, careful, simple practice seems to be the only way.

Thanks again

Howard
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Howard Clegg, modified 13 Years ago at 12/21/10 7:58 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/21/10 7:57 AM

RE: Stream Entry? Surely not.

Posts: 61 Join Date: 10/15/10 Recent Posts
Hello Shashank,

Sorry for not replying before, but in all honesty I did not really understand what you were asking/describing.

I think the best way would be to ask yourself how you see the "I" now. Is there some permanent kind of a shift in the way you see it and how sure are you about it ? or is there any other fundamental shift in perception ?


I would love to say that everything now appears rosy/golden and/or insubstantial. Unfortunately not, everything appears as before, stuff is still stuff and, well, unforgiving too. Just like it always was. However on several occasions this kind of thing has happened, on and off the cushion. I've not given too much thought to these events because the acid test is always, does it benefit anybody? By that I mean does it lead to the reduction in suffering of myself and those I interact with. If the answer is no, then I just need to move on. As per MCTB

What has changed is my relationship to sensations. I am beginning to realise how vast the self is. The quality of my "off the cushion" practice varies widely but what I try to do is adopt a choice-less awareness or loose noting approach, so I may start with a sensation or group of sensations then loosen up and let my mind note whatever presents itself. On some occasions this "switching" process is fluid and fast. Sometimes I am able to do this whilst cooking and having a conversation at the same time. Very soon it becomes apparent how small and limited my attention is. In this environment with the self is doing a great many things. So my observer is paying attention to chopping carrots, then switches to the tail end of a comment that the self has made, notices that it also smiled a and shifted the body's weight. While noticing this the hands put the chopped carrots in the pot but the observer did not notice this because it was noticing the the weather, response from the other person was not fully noticed either, but the self manages just fine.

I am continually amazed at how the self can perform all these vastly complex activities with no direction from the observer at all. I have a vision of the observer as a goat hopping from rock to rock on the top of a mountain, the mountain being the self. The goat has no idea what is really going on, but can convince him self otherwise because the air is clean and the view arresting.

I am aware that this kind of experience does not reduce suffering for anyone, but it does sum up my emerging attitude towards "stuff." I'm just more accepting about everything. No pyrotechnics, well okay some, but not for a couple of days. This has a down side of course. Its very easy to let go of the sensations that are nice and fluffy, but to realise, as I did the other day, that the anxiety that I was feeling due to the heavy traffic I was in, was also no-self, was much more difficult. You don't feel the need to manipulate nice sensations so much, but the grotty ones are much more challenging. At that moment I felt a rather profound sense of loss.

On a different note, I've not cycled for a couple of days. This has been a blessed relief. Re-observation is such a sneaky SOB. But this has given me a chance to remember what it was like before. For a while, cycling was becoming so normal that I was starting to believe that it was normal and perhaps I was attaching undue significance to the process. Then it stopped and the difference has been fairly clear. So that is a relief.

Shashank, your comments about the fruition process are very familiar, but I would not have been able to put my experiences in to words. The whole "getting lost" thing. For a split second you think you were just distracted, but then something "drops" and it's "over." I don't have the clarity yet to spot the whole process, some are much clearer than others.

You mention path moment fruitions as being more powerful. Am I right in thinking that we only get four in all? Maps and models vary after all and I have read about people feeling that they have completed a path but actually have not. Also can there be paths within paths? I'm fairly certain that there are cycles within cycles. Did my head in for a while too.

Thanks

Howard