not enlightenment, but something that felt close to

pawel adam baranski, modified 10 Years ago.

not enlightenment, but something that felt close to

Posts: 24 Join Date: 12/2/10 Recent Posts
I definitevly achieved "awakening" - i felt that i slept my whole life, and all people around me are asleep, and i'm finally awakeen.

But that wasn't all i felt, i achieved much further stage;


What i experienced seems to be exactly correct with how osho describes enlightment;
From other descriptions of enlightement - i don't think what i achieved was state of non-duality.

I felt like 100% blank page, that nothing from past have any kind of effect on me.
I wanted to enjoy life in every ascpet, inlcluding experiences that most of us consider "sad".
Life was "dancing and singing";
To describe my state i could say that i felt 100% acceptance, but that's not true - i realized that there's no such thing as acceptance, i was beyond that.

What made this state dissapear was probably urge to maintain this state.

It was 2 years ago, and back then i didn't knew anything about enlightenment, buddhism or meditation.


So, what was that?
pawel adam baranski, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: not enlightenment, but something that felt close to

Posts: 24 Join Date: 12/2/10 Recent Posts
Also i felt great love to whole nature, but that love was simply mirror of love to myself.
thumbnail
Bruno Loff, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: not enlightenment, but something that felt close to

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Have you considered you might simply have gone through A&P? (Are you familiar with this terminology? I guess so since you use "dark night")

Have you read "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha," by Daniel Ingram? (Free online ebook, free pdf version, Amazon.com link)

The chapter on A&P is on this link.
pawel adam baranski, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: not enlightenment, but something that felt close to

Posts: 24 Join Date: 12/2/10 Recent Posts
i am not and i did not read this book, i used "dark night" because it was in category name :}
pawel adam baranski, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: not enlightenment, but something that felt close to

Posts: 24 Join Date: 12/2/10 Recent Posts
i just read that and i don't think it was this. Only thing that is somehow correct is this: "
Soon the meditator will learn what is meant by the phrase, “Better not to begin. Once begun, better to finish!” as they are now too far into this to ever really go back. Until they complete this progress of insight, they are “on the ride” and may begin to feel that the dharma is now doing them rather than the other way around, as they will progress inevitably and relatively quickly"

I am unable to back to "normal life", even though it happened 2 years ago and i didn't achieved anything even close to it (but i started to meditate about week ago), and while meditating - i'm progressing very quickly.


and i though that "dark night" simply means feeling bad.

Anyway, if that somehow helps to recognize what i experienced, i know how it started - it started from great pain, that i decided to accept. With acceptation of this pain acceptation of everything else has came.

I remember that yesterday, when i achieved something i call "void", i was thinking that what i called "acceptance" back then is what i call "meditation" right now, but i don't know if this is true.
pawel adam baranski, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: not enlightenment, but something that felt close to

Posts: 24 Join Date: 12/2/10 Recent Posts
I read those stages and i think i was further.

i just don't remember this part to happend: "
non-state, there is absolutely no time, no space, no reference point, no experience, no mind, no consciousness, no nothingness, no somethingness, no body, no this, no that, no unity, no duality, and no anything else"
pawel adam baranski, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: not enlightenment, but something that felt close to

Posts: 24 Join Date: 12/2/10 Recent Posts
I wonder, do you people simply follow your regular lifes after achieving further stages?

When i was experiencing what i described, i felt exactly same love to every single person. I wouldn't be able to be in any kind of 1-1 relationship, for example.
thumbnail
Ident Silence, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: not enlightenment, but something that felt close to

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
I'd agree with Bruno, this sounds like an A&P which can give one the impression that they're now enlightened, or at least more realised than they actually are. Whether you like it or not, the A&P is followed by the Dark Night which certainly does not:

simply mean feeling bad.


Trying to place yourself on the map of the stages of insight based on memories from two years previously and with no experience of any other models of spiritual progress, particularly claiming to have attained something close to enlightenment, will set you up for a fall. I know this because I've been there too. The state you've experienced is something which can be reached again through insight practice. Once you've sat down, got your concentration in order and began noting every sensation that arises and passes within your sensory experience of reality you will pass through distinct stages of insight and inevitably experience the same, or at the very least similar sensations to what you've experienced before.

I'm not trying to disparage your claims or dampen the obvious emotional impact that the experience had on you, but you're becoming lost in the content of what occured rather than examining it for what it is. I'm sure many of us on here who have put these techniques into practice could tell you identical stories about feeling one-ness with everything, "100% acceptance" of all the suffering in the world and all manner of blissful, A&P related tales.

What i experienced seems to be exactly correct with how osho describes enlightment;
From other descriptions of enlightement - i don't think what i achieved was state of non-duality.


So what do you think enlightenment means? You say you don't think you acheived a state of non-duality which would lead me to believe that you haven't attained enlightment.

What made this state dissapear was probably urge to maintain this state.


Impermanence: You realise that this state is not a constant change in perception or awareness. It has arisen, it has passed.

Suffering: The urge to stay in that state and hold onto it will lead you to suffer the desire to re-enter it. Even when you do enter it again, it will arise and pass and until you realise this you will be stuck at that level.

Not self: What you experienced is not you, nor is it a part of you, nor is it something you own. It's a state which exists and can be experienced by using the correct techniques. If you identify with it and believe it to be part of you, you'll miss the point because it will only arise and pass like every other sensation.

If you had even attained stream entry then such a shift in awareness would be permanent and require no effort to maintain. Even then it's still not enlightenment but you'd at least be on the right path.

I am unable to back to "normal life", even though it happened 2 years ago and i didn't achieved anything even close to it (but i started to meditate about week ago), and while meditating - i'm progressing very quickly.


What do you mean by "normal life"? Do you mean your day-to-day environment? Your job? Relationships? If so, this sounds like what Daniel refers to in MCTB as a "bleedthrough" during the Dark Night which, in my humble opinion, would probably be a fair approximation of 'where you are' as the Dark Night can last years until we learn to see the way out. If you want the advice of someone else who is new to this site, the terminology and these very effective and time-served techniques then go learn about vipasanna and start practising immediately.

To be "progressing very quickly" suggests that you know where you started, where you are at present and where you're headed. In what way are you progressing quickly?

I wonder, do you people simply follow your regular lifes after achieving further stages?

When i was experiencing what i described, i felt exactly same love to every single person. I wouldn't be able to be in any kind of 1-1 relationship, for example.


Don't use this experience as an excuse to fuck around if you're in a relationship, mess your friends around or treat people who haven't experience the A&P with disrespect or as lesser beings. Been there, done that, looked like a cock and payed the price for it. Seriously. Use this lesson and learn to be a loving and compassionate human being.

As for simply following a regular life, I can only speak for myself based on my own experiences and what I've learned from the wisdom of those much further advanced than I am on the path: The lessons we learn, the insights and realisations must all be integrated into our daily lives because, regardless of our level of attainment, we're still human and unless we choose a monastic life from here on in then we still need to be able to function as 'normal' members of society. If you chose a monastic path then it's your choice and that's what I used to think you needed to do to become enlightened until I understood what enlightenment is.

I'm just a guy on the internet who's working towards enlightenment like everyone else on this site. I'm making no claims to having attained anything other than the understanding that practice of vipassana and the understanding of the Three Characteristics will, with hard work and effort, lead to enlightenment.

Put what happened in perspective. Accept that you have experienced that there is more to reality than you were previously aware of but don't try to say you're an enligheneted being until you actually understand what enlightenment is. I don't believe that you can experience "something that felt close to" enlightenment without first understanding what enlightenment is and what actually occurs on entry into that stage of the path. Until we experience it for ourselves we're only ever creating ideas which bear no resemblance to the truth and are based on what you think it would feel. If you think it, it's a thought. It's not self, it arises and passes like all other thoughts, and your misunderstanding of enlightenment will only bring suffering as you will continually miss the point of the essential insights you can gain during meditation.

Remember, I'm just someone else who's new to this site and the specific practises discussed in Daniel's book. What I say is purely an opinion and I could be completely wrong but having interpreted similar experiences in unrealistic ways in the past, and now having the fortune to have come across this site, I can say that I understand where you're coming from. There are people on here who know a lot more about this than I do and it's your responsibility to educate yourself and learn from those who have walked the path before you.

Good luck with your searching and please keep your feet on the ground.

Tommy
pawel adam baranski, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: not enlightenment, but something that felt close to

Posts: 24 Join Date: 12/2/10 Recent Posts
I'm getting confused.

When i was in this state, there was no such thing as being a dick. Also, no one was either closer or farther from my heart; murders had same love as my family members.

and by saying that "Don't use this experience as an excuse to fuck around if you're in a relationship, mess your friends around or treat people who haven't experience the A&P with disrespect or as lesser beings. Been there, done that, looked like a cock and payed the price for it. Seriously" it means you have no idea what are you talking about, unless you speaking about post-a&p(when it passes), and not about a&p itself.

And by "I am unable to back to "normal life", even though it happened 2 years ago and i didn't achieved anything even close to it (but i started to meditate about week ago), and while meditating - i'm progressing very quickly." i mean that re-achieving this state is main point of my life from 2 years, and everything else is less or more meaningless.
pawel adam baranski, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: not enlightenment, but something that felt close to

Posts: 24 Join Date: 12/2/10 Recent Posts
"Even my old music friend was keeping most of what he knew to himself, and issues around disclosure of meditation theory and personal practice details nearly cost us our friendship. "

Both, keeping something to myself and concept of friendship seems incorrect with what i experienced. I felt same way towards anyone, and didn't care at all what are their feelings toward me, so basically i was in same relation with everyone. (and if what i experienced was A&P, then if this friend made any kind of progress these things shouldn't happend)

A lot of this book foreword doesn't make sense to me and is incorrect with what i experienced.


Also, there's a lot about vibrations in every stage. I don't remember any vibrations.

I can't really relate to any of stages desribed in book, and i think that's because of how i achieved this.

I did this not by meditation, but by "doing what i want to do". Well, it's hard to describe right now because i don't feel it right now;

But i think that love and awareness are two different things; often when meditating i pursue only awareness; once it's connected with love it's hard to call it meditation anymore, it's simply process of acceptation of "true self".

It's being observer, not the seeker. Once meditation is connected with love i no longer seek anything, i just observe;
and this observation is not caused great awareness and realization of illussions, but of acceptance and love to who one is.


I can't give clear description because this isn't something i am experiencing right now.
thumbnail
Ident Silence, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: not enlightenment, but something that felt close to

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts

Both, keeping something to myself and concept of friendship seems incorrect with what i experienced. I felt same way towards anyone, and didn't care at all what are their feelings toward me, so basically i was in same relation with everyone. (and if what i experienced was A&P, then if this friend made any kind of progress these things shouldn't happend)

A lot of this book foreword doesn't make sense to me and is incorrect with what i experienced.


Have you considered the idea that it is you who is incorrect while the teachings of Buddha, as explained by Daniel Ingram, a guy who has attained to Arahatship through these teachings and practices, are perfect, can be tested in reality and are easily verified if you take the time to get your head out of your arse and actually practice?

You're making no sense here and appear to be trying to bend what you experienced to fit your own flawed understanding of what you expect enlightenment to be. Yes, post A&P these feelings are typical but you have to understand that they are only feelings, sensory experience processed through the six sense doors, understood according to our expectations of reality and filtered through our preconditioned perception.

If you've spent two years trying to get back to this state, whether it was an A&P or not, means that you have an attachment to a state which is impermanent and not self. By craving this, you will suffer for it until you learn the techniques to reach this state and then examine the Three Characteristics of it. Sit down, stabilise your concentration and begin vipassana practice; you will hit the A&P again and again and again if you practice well.

I'm getting confused.

When i was in this state, there was no such thing as being a dick. Also, no one was either closer or farther from my heart; murders had same love as my family members.

and by saying that "Don't use this experience as an excuse to fuck around if you're in a relationship, mess your friends around or treat people who haven't experience the A&P with disrespect or as lesser beings. Been there, done that, looked like a cock and payed the price for it. Seriously" it means you have no idea what are you talking about, unless you speaking about post-a&p(when it passes), and not about a&p itself.

And by "I am unable to back to "normal life", even though it happened 2 years ago and i didn't achieved anything even close to it (but i started to meditate about week ago), and while meditating - i'm progressing very quickly." i mean that re-achieving this state is main point of my life from 2 years, and everything else is less or more meaningless.


Of course there is no such thing as "being a dick" during an A&P, I'd have thought that someone who makes claims to attainments like yourself would have understood this already. You're taking the attitude of "I know better than you" and perhaps you do but you're inability to take any rational criticism from people who are trying to help you to understand your experience is foolish.

You're free to think that I don't know what I'm talking about, it matters not a jot to me since you're responsible for your own life, and the mistakes you make just as I am. All I was trying to offer was the opinion of someone who's been where you have.
pawel adam baranski, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: not enlightenment, but something that felt close to

Posts: 24 Join Date: 12/2/10 Recent Posts
Yes, i do consider that i am wrong, even thought often it doesn't sound that way.

I dont claim that my descriptions are correct, i provide them hoping that someone will tell me what i experienced and where i am right now; and if what i experienced was A&P, then why i doesnt seems to fit description at all.

I'm not saying that something is incorrect, i'm saying that something seems to be incorrect for me in this moment, and i consider that this is just some kind of delusion.


#edit

what i experienced is very close to a lot of these descriptions: http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/actualism/others/corr-pce.htm


the biggest difference is that it wasn't something that "just happend". It took me about 2 weeks, every day achieving "deeper stage".
pawel adam baranski, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: not enlightenment, but something that felt close to

Posts: 24 Join Date: 12/2/10 Recent Posts
i'm getting just more and more confused googling for explanation of pce/actual freedom and its connection to enlightenment.

What stage of insight this is?
pawel adam baranski, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: not enlightenment, but something that felt close to

Posts: 24 Join Date: 12/2/10 Recent Posts
Af and enlightenment seems to be two different things. That doesn't make any sense to me, since they both are about "ultimate conscious".
thumbnail
Ident Silence, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: not enlightenment, but something that felt close to

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
You should go on the board on here for PCE's and AF to discuss that since there will be people on there who'll know more about where you're coming from. I'm not yet familiar with these areas so I can't offer any advice here.

Either way, I genuinely wish you the very best in your practice and hope you get to where you want to be.
thumbnail
Bruno Loff, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: not enlightenment, but something that felt close to

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
pawel adam baranski:
Af and enlightenment seems to be two different things. That doesn't make any sense to me, since they both are about "ultimate conscious".


Has it ever occurred to you that just because something feels like the ultimate mode of consciousness, that doesn't necessarily mean:
(1) that it in fact is so, nor
(2) that such a thing as the ultimate mode of consciousness even exists?

I once had an A&P experience when it really felt like God was showing me something. I once had a meditative experience when I thought love was the stuff the universe was made of. I once had a dream when it REALLY REALLY FELT that I could fly.

Breadcrumb