2 years ago i experienced what i believe was PCE.

there was no good and evil. No beliefs, no morality.
Howevery, there was feelings - biggest joy in my life, biggest love of my life - love towards myself, that was also mirrored onto whole nature - murders got as much love as my family members (and probably if i would went further in this stage, stones would get as much love as my family members, but i'm not sure about that). Was this PCE? Is this about what is actual freedom?

I thought it was something-before-enightement, so i went to buddhism forums. I was always sceptic to meditation, and for 2 years never tried it, because that seemed to be in conflict with what i experienced. But they told "just meditate, you'l see". So i started to meditate - and it actually brought some progress - but now i see that enlightenment is not what i seek, so even thought meditation is correct i shouldn't blindly follow buddhists advices, since they are wrong.

So there are my questions.
What i experienced - was that PCE? is there joy and love in your life, those who are "actually free" ?

Should i meditate? If yes, then how? Should i observe my thoughts? should i kill them? Or maybe i should follow them?

There was a lot about buddhism/enlightement that was incorrect with my feelings/experiences, but i was told (and that's what i started to think) i just haven't been close enough to enlightenment.

With PCE almost everything i read seems to be correct, except this no feelings thing.
So tell me - is this right place for me?

Dude I frankly think that it's up to you to decide wether this place is "right for you" or not...

The great thing about the DhO is that people here are prone to be clear and honest. There is no hidden agenda, no purpose other than discussing meditative practice in a practical and straightforward way.

So you should be able to best judge for yourself wether this place interests you.

If you are interested in meditation, I suggest (again) that you read MCTB. I have read a lot of books about meditation, and that is the best one I've read to date.

The DhO is a website mostly for people having a determined, concrete, down-to-earth, no-bullshit approach to meditative practice. The actual freedom trust website is about achieving a specific meditative stabilization (called "actual freedom"), including a few specific practices leading to that.

Other sites which might sparkle your interest:

http://www.kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com --- a sister site to this one, with plenty of interesting articles and discussions. They are much more into the whole love thing over there.

http://www.aypsite.org --- A complete and thorough approach to yoga, if you're into spiritual god-worshiping kind of practices. They are COMPLETELY into the whole divine love thing over there.

http://www.thetaobums.com/ --- About the Taoist practices (chi kung, etc). There they have the whole yin and yang thing going on.

It's up to you to get informed and take your pick. Or if nothing interests you, go do it by yourself, maybe you'll avoid all the typical traps and pitfalls, and find something new. The point is: if you aren't interested in participating in the DhO, then just go away, don't expect the other participants to tell you whether this site is right for you or not.

Maybe it was an excellence experience? A PCE doesn't have any sense of being a self at all.

If you want to achieve enlightenment, Richard wrote some instructions somewhere on the AF website for the state he reached before going on to achieve AF.

What i was asking is "did i experienced PCE"?

Untill now i though that i was on path to enlightenment and buddhism/MCTB will help me to re-achieve my state.

Now i see thet actual freedom fits my experience much better than enlightenment, but i still have some doubts;

And by asking "is this right place for me" i actually want answer for my question about joy and love.


And i don't know how much i am interested in participating in DhO, because i don't know how much my experience is correct with either buddhism or actual freedom;

These answers are going to help me learn how close is my experience close to what DhO helps to achieve, and let me decide if i either want or not participate in DhO.

And again, there are things that are incredibly correct - like the way this state is achieved - i remember that how i achieved my state was veeeeery similar. Everything was perfect - this is also very correct.

But there are things that are not correct. For me this was state of ultimate joy. Do you feel ultimate joy? Because from what i read it seems that neither joy or pain is present in you(i mean those who claim to be actually free and creator of website about AF).

And don't get me wrong - i don't say that one should enjoy what's good and evade what's bad; i say that everything is joy. I remember that i left house in cold winter, and coldness was joy.

Is this what "actual freedom" is about?

I also remember that i probably didn't reffered to pain as to illussion - but something that is somehow equal to joy. Pain was joy, and by that i don't mean i was masochist. There were feelings, but either without any kind of judge/value, or all with same judge/value. It's possible that after realization of this all feelings become one - love - but i'm not sure about that, and don't think it's important - it's just effect of realization.

It was also about living this exact moment, but this is correct for both - enlightenment and af.

I also think that words "acceptation" and "love" meant same to me - but i'm not sure.

Also i don't exclude possibility that "love", "acceptation" and "joy" meant same to me, and now i refer to them as something else because at this moment love and joy seems to be two different things to me.

i just remembered. This is awesome feeling. I remember how what i experienced is being achieved.

It's following your thoughts, your desires. Think about something you want to do, and do it. Dont think about doing it, dont try doing it, just do it. And by doing it i don't really mean physical action - but that doesn't matter, because to really do this you have to move towards physical action. By doing it i mean acceptance of what you have to do, rising awareness of this act - it have to be done with whole mind; all psyhological defense mechanisms must pass away. It doesn't matter, if this will be done physically - because once fully accepted, desire may pass away. Its just important to be ready do something one want to de with full awareness - not like predending he don't really want to, or he don't really care. One have to accept he want and he care.

this kind of practice is opposite to meditation - one shouldn't clear his mind of thoughts, but accept and love them. But the end of the road is similiar - after accepting thoughts mind becomes clear, ones achieves great awareness and start to live with presence, not past or future.

The difference is that this is path of joy and love - once you follow it these become only stronger. There's no such thing as dark night. This is path of great inner peace.

Basic assuption is that everything is perfect in this moment, one only have to realize that. Everything including thoughts, fear, pain.

This path seems most natural to me from scientific point of view, since it doesn't assume that evolution made some kind of mistake.

What do you mean by that question? If you read the AF website, it seems to be about being Actually Free from the human condition. The human condition being one arrived at via evolution... it seems that would also imply something wrong with it. If evolution did nothing wrong we'd all by happy with exactly where we are. Which, incidentally, is why we do silly things like seek Enlightenment or Actual Freedom.

As for your experiences, from the little I know, it does sound more like an Actual Freedom-related thing, so I'd recommend reading the other posts here about that and see if they connect with you, until an AF'er can answer your question directly.

I look at trees, and this is most amazing view i have ever seen.
I listen to music, and this is most amazing sound i have ever heard.
I feel, and what i feel right now, no matter if it's pain, fear or love - it's most amazing thing i have ever felt.
.

This is message to myself, because i know that when i'll start to feel worse, i'll be back there, looking for way of changing and improving who i am, hoping this make me feel better.

It's gone right now, because coming to this forum and writing this message wasn't what i really wanted to do.

"what do i really want?" is the only question to be asked.

There's no 'I' or any emotion in a PCE.

Yeah, i read that. My path is different. It's about being human in 100%; not about getting rid of "human condition", and not about getting rid of the part of "human condition" we don't like, and not about changing our "human condition" (and what i believe this is what NLP is about).


I can't tell you to start enjoying sadness, because this is not something to seek for, this is just an effect.
I could tell you to accept yourself, but then you'l try to accept yourself, and trying to accept have nothing to do with accepting.
Only thing i can tell you is ask yourself "what do i really want".

This is message both to me, and you - because MAYBE someone will think that my path is more reasonable that those offered by buddhism or af.

Those words triggered something. I actually went through almost the exact same set of experiences while in the Dark Night. I would randomly get into what I called "really good moods." I'd just wake up and everything would be great, I would see with remarkable clarity and crispness... I'd just feel wonderful.

Then I'd get into really bad moods where I couldn't stand to do anything productive. I would get irritated at the slightest things. I thought my life was a mess and that was the problem, but I had also read MCTB and thought that it might just be Dark Night (which was correct), so I stuck through it.

I'd cycle through these randomly. What was strange to me is that the good moods wouldn't come from any particular effort... like I'd get really drunk one night and wake up with a hangover, yet in the good mood. I also started realizing that I would cycle, as you said. In the good mood I'd say "this is nice, and I feel very motivated to meditate, but I know it will pass..." In the bad mood I was just angry and wanted to escape, remembering how nice the good moods were.

Looking back, I believe that the "good moods" were just Mind & Body, the 1st nyana / stage on the Progress of Insight. The "bad moods" were when I went into the Dark Night. What's important to realize is that the good moods were actually a regression. I now realize why they often happened after getting drunk or stoned - I was just sliding back. If you continue to seek the good moods and ignore the bad ones, I believe you will be stuck in this cycle for a long time. I strongly recommend you read Mastering the Core Teachings of Buddha and see what it has to offer. In my case anyway it was definitely worth it to push through, as the bad moods led to very important realizations about suffering and my relationship to it, and confronting them (via insight meditation - you're right that "trying to accept myself" didn't work) is what made them go away for good (well, at least until the next path...).

You said:

Why is that the case exactly?

I woked up and i don't feel it anymore, and i don't feel confidence that this maybe something *more* that buddhism/enlightenment/af;
but i'll share my memories.

It's about acceptation. Once you get on this path you understand, you not only don't need to follow anyone voice, but you also don't want to. This is about listening to your self. in 100%.

It's totally not about getting something away. It's about accepting everything. Once in this stage you feel amazing, but this is not because you got rid of pain/sadness, but because you accepted them - and maybe effect is quite similar to enlightenment, maybe this is just different path - but i don't think so; i experienced awakening for about a second yesterday, and basing on my knowledge about buddhism - i felt like most of people following buddhism, even those enlighted, are sleeping; and they practise is about killing who they really are.

Also, one thing that i can reffer to - creator of MCTB was asked about enlightement, about being in state of constant love. He said, that this is not how most imagine this, that you are not "pure love", or something like that.

When i reach my state, i am pure love (even though that may sound naive right now).Mostly This part makes me think that my path isn't different path to enlightenment.

pawel,
You keep going on and on about memories of some experience you had in the past, and how all other paths are wrong.
Did you come here looking for advice? or did you come here with your own set of preconceptions about what and what is not true. The latter seems more like the case to me.

The people on this forum are accomplished practitioners who have gotten very good results from their practice, beyond your imagination. Therefore, if you wish to also make such progress, you can ask them how to do so.

So - if your doubt / certainty about practice is too strong for you to follow anyone else's advice, you will not gain anything from this forum, which is all about advice from other people, who have gotten further than one has.



And to where do you plan to lead people who wish to follow `your` path?



My point is - you have to acknowledge that others who have gone through what you have, have something to offer, and that you may be wrong on many of your preconceptions / beliefs on what is or is not , path.

I felt angry and very anxious few minutes ago. I considered meditating to reclaim my inner peace. But instead of this i did something different - i accepted these feelings. And just like that, instatly my state changes; i understand origin of my anger and anxious - i want to go out, dance and sing, but i don't. Realizing that is not yet doing what i want to do, but this is step forward.
In same instance my awareness increase. My anger and anxious changes in to will of live, feeling of being alive, being able to experience world in every aspect; and this feeling is present together with great inner peace.

As others have said... you're not asking any questions, and you don't seem to be receptive of our advice, so what is your goal for posting here? Maybe you do have the answer to whatever the question is, but it sounds like you haven't figured it out yet, in any case. Maybe it's MCTB Enlightenment, maybe Actual Freedom, or maybe you discovered something new. We can help you with things we know, but not with things we don't. I think it's likely that you're doing something someone else has before, but that's just me.

From what I know, maybe you just went from Re-Observation (very angry and anxious sounds exactly right) to Equanimity (instantly my state changes; i want to go out, dance and sing; sounds about right). That means you're pretty far along, and if you meditate well you could get Stream Entry soon. But that's just what I know. Could be something else.

If you just want to let us know how it's going for the benefit of all of us, then that's fine too! You can start a thread and we can chip in or not. We're oriented on practice, so write down what your practice is doing and what benefit it's having.

Pawel, this is exactly what we do during Insight or Vipassana practice: we accept whatever we experience, seeing that it is not `I`, nor do `I` have any control over anything I experience, feeling fully any experience that comes, and acknowledging it, perhaps with a soft verbal note (this is what noting practice is about). Doing this again and again, once comes to see more and more aspects of mind & body as being impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self, and moving through the progress of insight stages.

So do you feel less anxious now? note `feeling better`, do you feel safe, knowing that you can always accept what you are feeling, to feel better? note `safety`. do you feel satisfied? note `satisfaction`, do you feel afraid? note `fear`, do you feel doubt? note `doubt`. and so on.

I hope this will be useful to you.

Edit: just realized I posted this on the AF subsection, though my reply was aimed to Pawel's questions in the Insight section. Feel free to move it if necessary.

Pawel: The source of your anxiety is the same as the source of your love. And yes, it is who "you" really are: an internally fabricated sense of identity.

Actual freedom is about removing this source entirely. Is that clear to you now pawel? It just goes away, *poof*, *kaput*.

If you want to become actually free, then you'll find this website, and the AF trust website, very useful.

If you instead want to feel love and ecstasy 99% of the time, know that this is also possible. 100% is impossible because, like I said, love and hate emanate from the same place. If you want this, then I recommend that you go to:

http://www.aypsite.com

And learn the lessons there. They're all about love, surrendering, doing what you want, etc.

Really, it's your choice, and it's all been done before.

If you would like to make a better informed decision about what you would like to do, I recommend that you read:

1. the AF trust website (http://www.actualfreedom.com.au), on one hand, how they write, what they write about, what their reality view is, and

2. the AYP website (http://www.aypsite.com), on the other hand, how the guru and people there write, what they writes about, and what their reality view is.

Both of these resources are good and to-the-point, in the sense that they are strongly practice-oriented, and have a real achievement mentality --- they don't claim any sort of vaguely defined super spiritual/mental achievement, they both offer their mind-changing goals as something that is attainable by normal people like you and me, and tell you the practice you need to do to get there.

Then you should be ready to make a choice, just make it and go along with it. Remember that you can give both practices a try for a few months, and see which one produces the results you like best.

I hope that settles your question for good?

Bye,
Bruno