Hello again,

This cycle thing is starting to settle a bit now. The stages are turning up pretty much as advertised. My 9am A&P arrived as a blast of fierce joy that brought tears to my eyes. It involved somebody gently holding on to my arm for support in the icy conditions we are having over here, then not letting go for half an hour. We walked along like old friends, chatting away, without a care in the world.

This man is not the kind of guy who would ask for help if his life depended on it. I am not the kind of guy that people just assume will help. I have always had a "do not mess!" sign around my neck. Nobody knows that I'm really a softy, apparently this guy suddenly does.

I'm not noticing the middle stages, Fear, Misery or Disgust yet, but my life is very supportive right now so maybe they are muted for this reason. I experience a Dissolution as the inevitable come down after the high of A&P; which is always unsustainable after all. Feel lethargic and tired for a bit then a shower and a sit and I'm fine again.

My sitting is dramatically different in this post path world. Morning sit is always dreamy, bit distracted, Jhana like. Mid-morning post shower, is the most unruly. I assume that this is because I am in the dark night even though I can't see it walking around. Prior to path my sitting was disciplined and full-on with no excuses. Now the only session that comes close is my afternoon/evening sit.

In the late afternoon my thought processes start to go in to a higher gear, "grinding," if you will. This I assume to be Re-observation. I'm okay with this for quite a while, then it all gets too much and I start to get really sick of this crazy guy shouting in my head. This sounds like Desire for Deliverance. But wait! That is supposed to come before Re-observation. Curious.

The first chance I get, I sit down to sort this nutter out. This session is the closest to a "normal" mahasi style sit that I have in the day. I stay with physical sensations as much as possible, building up from the breath and contact with the cushion then up by stages to the whole physical sensory field, cycle round the sensations a few times. At some point I move to equanimity and the fruition pops fairly quickly, followed by the bliss wave, which is very pleasant in equanimity.

That's it, I get the rest of the evening off I suppose. Or do I? I am intrigued to know if the cycle re-starts immediately or if it re-sets itself after a night's sleep. I'm assuming retreat would be an excellent place to find this out.

Now I've got half of the cycle in clear view and is behaving as advertised, I am much more confident about calling my self a stream enterer (although the usual small print still applies.) I appear to have seen both ends and am working towards the middle of the thing. The next questions are kind of inevitable.

How many times can this happen in a day?

And

If this is "automatic" where does practice fit in?

The first question is way above my pay grade and I don't anticipate going there for a while. However the fact that It just happens all on its own (strong no-self thing happening here) suggests that the best I can do at the moment is just observe it as clearly as possible until I know exactly what is going on. Staying out of its way is also advisable. I got really caught up with Re-observation for a while there and it wasn't nice.

Practice for me at the moment is more about seeing clearly and facilitating the process, rather than doing the thing commando style. Gently gently. I assume that will change eventually.

So if the cycle of insight is "natural" or no-self, was it always this way? Even before path? I suspect that this is the case. After all half western literature is based on it. Big shock-unavoidable consequences-associated pain and grief-denial-looking for a saviour-humility/acceptance-growth. The other half is, of course, based on doomed love. I digress.

So what about practice? I suppose if you get to SE, you should have a level of competence that means you get to choose what to do and how to do it. There are no promises or guarantees, but the fact that the thing is going to go chugging on in to the distance, does take the pressure off. For myself, I know that I'm going to have to do a lot of work on Jhanas at some point. Eventually I will be standing at the gates of third path and the process will be demanding competences in the formless realms that I just do not have at the moment. However I think I have plenty of time to address this. Besides I have enough on my plate at the moment.

So, I'm expecting my thought processes to go bananas in a few hours. It will be interesting to see if this happens now I have actually written about it. Experience suggests that writing about something changes the experience for me, which is why I do it. We shall see.


Howard

Not that I know so much, but... I think it can happen a lot in a day. Interestingly, for me, my Review went really fast through A&P, Dissolution, etc., up to Equanimity. Then I'd kind of flounder in Equanimity and not be able to pop a fruition too naturally. After a Fruition, though, I would immediately go into A&P again and start over. It is confusing that the stages can go in other orders, and also confusing that I could will a Fruition without any cycle at all. Not sure how that all fits in. I think I messed up my ability to naturally Review by forcing the Fruitions though so I've kind of given up on Reviewing, now..

And the 2nd question, I don't know! I've been told that after SE, our minds will notice insights automatically (that is, aspects of the 3 Chars), so we just have to focus on looking at the right things to get insights that will lead us to the next path. Again with me also forcing particular stages it didn't feel too automatic, but I suppose it could have been.

Where did you hear that formless realms are important to get 3rd path? I'm curious about that.

Do you still note, by the way, or do you just observe?

Hi

Beo


Yeah, me too. I think you are only limited by the speed, accuracy and precision of your practice.


Beo


Is all this happening on the cushion? I ask because I've been very relaxed about my post path practice and my experiences are rather different. I've done very little formal sitting (an hour or so a day) but all the components of the cycle have turned up fairly reliably, and almost always off the cushion. The only thing that I have to return to the cushion for is the fruition. Saying that, yesterday's was on the street putting my key in the car door. Sounds like you've maxed-out your post path practice. I, on the other hand, am just too tired to push anything. Physically I feel fine, better than ever in fact but spiritually and emotionally I am drained. I would like to do less practice and if I would I could, but this subject matter has always been the most interesting thing in my life. I just can't resist peeking into the box.

I can well understand your confusion. I think one of the problems with pushing the practice, post path, is that, shall we say, "will directed" events are much more likely. The mind is a powerful thing and post path you are much more likely to notice this. So when significant stuff happens there is always the issue of "was that me or was that just the cosmos doing its thing." As human beings we chuck out all kinds of requests to the cosmos. Most of them we don't notice or think of them as being "right" or "fair" and therefore, justified, what ever the hell that means. My own theory, for what its worth, is that the cosmos does its level best to answer each and every one of these requests no matter how partial or ill advised. Ergo confusion.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that you are making partial or ill advised requests, I was stating the general case. However if you are doing lots of practice in a post path environment, your intentionality will be strong. So you will get lots of strong feedback. Very easy for this to become overwhelming. If your response is to practice more.... you can see where this is going.

The problem with accepting my premise, that we are in a conversation with the cosmos, is that there then arises the risk that we start to see significance in every little thing. This may be the case, but dwelling on this is just a short road to the same old confusion. Which is why I have found Daniel's and Tarin's advice so useful. Gentle, careful, open practice with not too much agenda.
See what is and gently notice your place within it.

That was a rant. Oh well. You may have noticed that my perspective is not very Theravadan. This is mainly because most of my practice history has been Tantric and/or energy based. When I say Tantric, I mean auras, chackras, astral temples and whatnot. Intentionality is implicit and often very explicit in lots of this stuff. I used to go to a drop-in Ti-chi class were the guy used to teach a very interesting and simple technique to sense somebody's intentions. You could argue that all of the martial applications of Ti-chi are about sensing intention. If you go up against some of the senior teachers it can be very spooky.


Beo


Hmmm... Its all no-mind. Insight happens or it doesn't, you have no control, especially post path. But you do need to "turn up" for it to happen, so if you are off somewhere doing some very intense practice and being very disciplined etc. then you may not be as receptive as you need to be to see it.

For example, a lot of what I am writing now I am discovering for the first time as I write it. This is my way of "turning up." Its feels lovely, but the quality control may not be the best. Hope you understand that.

Lovely to chat,

Howard