self denial

This Good Self, modified 13 Years ago at 12/15/10 12:54 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/14/10 10:52 PM

self denial

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Another theoretical consideration, prompted by some readings and a tv documentary on self-harm.

One spiritual practice I've been reading about lately is self-denial. Lots of examples, such as 'turning the other cheek' (Bible), tolerating the 'petty tyrant' (Carlos Castaneda), being the 'valley' instead of the 'mountain' (Taoism), self-flagellation (Catholicism), or more simply maintaining mindfulness and not reacting during difficult circumstances (Tolle). I'm sure there's lots of Buddhist stuff on this topic too. I find mild forms of self-denial a good practice since self-importance tends to take hold quite easily in me.

I was watching this doco on teenagers who self-harm through various methods, like cutting themselves. They were showing a re-enactment and it looked like an incredibly self-denying behaviour. They all said it made them feel better and eased their mental anguish, which is when I connected it with what I'd been reading.

The therapists were encouraging the kids to have a higher regard for themselves, which seems quite logical....until you view it in a spiritual light. Obviously no one wants one of these kids to permanently damage themselves or suicide, but none of the ones on the doco had. Part of me thought they'd be better off encouraging a less dangerous form of self-denial, (if that's what it is), rather than trying to get rid of it. Apparently the incidence of this behaviour is growing rapidly. What do you think?
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Bruno Loff, modified 13 Years ago at 12/15/10 4:39 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/15/10 4:39 AM

"Spiritual Lights"

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
I personally do not have any opinion about what you are calling self denial. You put very different things in the same bucket --- such as being mindful and unreactive (and unreactive might mean different things to different people), and self flagelation (which is a practice to induce ecstasy through pain). As I have no opinion on so many different things at the same time, I find your question hard to answer.


The therapists were encouraging the kids to have a higher regard for themselves, which seems quite logical....until you view it in a spiritual light.


If the kids hurt themselves out of self-dislike, then it is quite logical that they should like themselves better. This is true when I see it, under my own "spiritual light" (e.g. part of my current practice is learning to be my own best friend). As there are many brands of light bulbs, there are also many different spiritual lights. I don't know the particular brand of spiritual light with which you are shining on the matter, but it seems like it's one of the "very illogical®" brand?

I personally try to get a brand of spiritual light that has the highest Rate of Logical Consistency (RLC), Frequency of Practical Applicability (FPA), and Amused Gayety Incidence (AGI) that I can currently afford. emoticon

Unfortunately, I have had to pass out on some of the other features, such as the Divine Love Coefficient (DLC), the Index of Hallucinatory Credibility (IHC), the Belief in Reincarnation Factor (BRF), and the Boddhisatva Trip Rating (BTR). I couldn't find a spiritual light with enough RLC and FPA, which also had a high DLC, IHC and BRF. And I wasn't looking for a high BTC anyway, so I managed to squeeze in that little extra AGI. emoticon

Maybe you would like to change your particular brand of spiritual light to include other features, and weed out apparent paradoxes? Remember that each new spiritual light is paid, in advance, with hours of contemplative practice.
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Pål S, modified 13 Years ago at 12/15/10 4:57 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/15/10 4:57 AM

RE: self denial

Posts: 196 Join Date: 8/16/10 Recent Posts
Yes, I remember reading an article on self-harm. It has nothing to do with self-denial. Pleasure is relative and physical pain has a link to emotional pain. The self-harming in it self is not pleasurable, but the euphoric reward received after for stopping the harm is. (Yes there probably are people who enjoy the pain itself but usually self-harm is referred to emotionally devastated teenage kids to which this applies.)
Trent , modified 13 Years ago at 12/15/10 7:27 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/15/10 7:12 AM

RE: self denial

Posts: 361 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
CCC,

Generally, I think that the examples you give could reference methods or motivations which could be used for or lead to self denial, but I don't think that's common. Also, there's more than one way to "deny" the self, so that may be something to keep in mind when evaluating these circumstances.

Paul S.:
The self-harming in it self is not pleasurable, but the euphoric reward received after for stopping the harm is.


The reason people self-harm --when it is not a "cry for help"-- is usually because they want to remove the pain they're lost in; it is not to seek a euphoric reward. When a person is suffering enough that they can no longer tolerate the torrent of emotional pain and/or they lose control of their affective reactions, and typically when the feelings are still becoming worse (hence there being a sense of urgency), they turn to inducing physical pain upon the body because that stops or vastly reduces the emotional pain almost instantly. The sensations of physical pain override and cut through the emotional suffering, giving them relief to begin the battle again (in their heads or with others), or so that they can resume functioning (some people do this in bathroom stalls), or so that they can sleep, etc. It is a coping mechanism for those that experience extreme suffering and don't know how to deal with it else-wise, and one which seemingly puts the "power" (control) back in their hands (that may even be the primary motivation for doing it).

To be aware that such suffering exists may be a flashing light onto your instinctive altruistic impulses. ("I want to help, I want this to stop, I don't want my fellow humans to hurt like this!") The key then is to realize that the one thing you can do to help forever end this kind of pain in everyone, which of course includes these people, is to end this kind of pain in yourself.

Trent
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Pål S, modified 13 Years ago at 12/15/10 1:23 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/15/10 1:23 PM

RE: self denial

Posts: 196 Join Date: 8/16/10 Recent Posts
Found the article I was referring to: How pain can make you feel better
This Good Self, modified 13 Years ago at 12/15/10 5:12 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/15/10 5:12 PM

RE: self denial

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Thanks trent. You know when your posts are simple they carry much more weight. That might just be because I can understand them when they're simple, and I get lost otherwise!

Paul, thanks for the link. And Bruno, that's BS! emoticon
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 13 Years ago at 12/15/10 5:49 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/15/10 5:49 PM

RE: self denial

Posts: 443 Join Date: 5/6/09 Recent Posts
To add to what Trent said...

Yes, sometimes people engage in self-harm to distract themselves from internal suffering that they can't get under control. Cutting, or burning, or even pulling hair can be quite the distraction. And, it can result in the release of pain-numbing chemicals in the brain that make the whole body feel nice.

However, self-harm is also a strategy used by people with dissociative symptoms to ground themselves back into their bodies. In this way, it's a strategy to re-affirm a sense of self, rather than to degrade it. Dissociation is often a welcome occurrence when intentionally induced through meditation practice. When it is unwelcome, however, people often do whatever they can to become grounded.

In that sense, the kind of self-harm described in the initial comment is not much like the kind of self-denial practiced in the ascetic spiritual traditions we're familiar with.

-Jackson
This Good Self, modified 13 Years ago at 12/15/10 7:37 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/15/10 7:32 PM

RE: self denial

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
excellent. Jackson, your example of dissociation and re-affirming the self through pain makes good sense. Perhaps that could be extended to say that the potential physical danger of self-harm also draws you into the present moment? A bit like the way some young males seek out and engage in violence because it makes them feel 'alive'?
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 13 Years ago at 12/30/10 11:45 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/30/10 11:45 AM

RE: self denial

Posts: 443 Join Date: 5/6/09 Recent Posts
C C C:
excellent. Jackson, your example of dissociation and re-affirming the self through pain makes good sense. Perhaps that could be extended to say that the potential physical danger of self-harm also draws you into the present moment? A bit like the way some young males seek out and engage in violence because it makes them feel 'alive'


I don't really see self harm as a way of returning to the present moment, so much as a way to distract one's self from emptiness. Young males acting out in violent ways is always a kind of self-assertion technique, a way to perpetuate a sense of control to cover up our basic vulnerability that many find so terrifying.

The self-harm of the spiritual traditions seemed to have more to do with trying to atone for sins (penance) or to burn-up one's karma intentionally. I don't believe that either conceptual basis warrants the practice. I find acceptance to be a much healthier, and more effective, path to liberation. And I don't mean "self-acceptance", per se, like ego-affirming or anything like that. More like accepting things as they are, including our basic humanity. I see that as a stepping stone for further work, and I see self-denial/self-harm as getting in the way of that. Just my opinion.

-Jackson