Hi there

I am seriously confused about certain things - more specifically about the path to take. My intention is to simply end my suffering , which means I do not want to experience anger , fear , sorrow , anxiety etc

1. I mainly wanted to know if anyone in the Dho community has spoken to some real Theravada monks if the end of the line at 4rth path would also mean that they will not experience anger , sorrow , fear , anxiety etc as opposed to what MCTB claims ? This is very important to know because if the monks claim that they also do not experience any such suffering then we can learn where we might be missing in our Insight practise.

2. How many Insight practitioners here have done Mindfulness of Body in the 18(?) ways ( for example seeing the body in cremation ground , seeing the body as a sack of grains etc ) ?

Regards
Shashank

The way some things have been explained in the past can certainly be confusing. It is up to experienced contemporary practitioners to update the methodology or at least to explain in contemporary terms what the original intended to say, and, if possible, to reinforce it with quotes from the original.

I would only ask that you stop for a moment and review the issues involved here. If you have been a serious student of the Dhamma and have done your homework with regard to discovering its true intent, you will have come to the conclusion that what Gotama taught was a way which allows a person to train their mind in such a way that dukkha (literally "suffering" or "unsatisfactoriness," yet in its essence "mental anguish," in all its different shades and colors, such as those you mentioned) was either attenuated (as one was walking the Path) or subdued (as one completed the Path) altogether. In order to accomplish this, one needs to be made aware of the true nature of the information entering the mind and whether or not it is being discerned correctly. In other words: Is what I'm seeing true, or is it a delusion? Because often what one perceives and imagines is the case is not the same as what the phenomenon being observed actually is.

In many instances, greed and hatred are caused by delusion and ignorance. If you cure the cause, you cure the disease, Gotama taught. The cause here being ignorance and delusion, and the cure being insight and wisdom, which comes from direct knowledge of the truth. Ignorance and delusion about what, you ask? Well, chiefly about what makes up (or what constitutes) "a person" and how the mind has become conditioned toward viewing this circumstance, as one among many other circumstances where a flaw in personality view (or some other "wrong view") causes friction in human relationships, leading to anger, fear, sorrow, anxiety etcetera.

The point being: If you wish to end suffering, you need to begin observing the origin of said suffering, and seeing it as it actually is. That is, observing how it actually arises and subsides (most often in the mind). With this stance as a foundational basis, you stand an actual chance of being able to end dukkha within your own life.

Review the Four Noble Truths and get to know them. Really get to know them, and why the Buddha thought them so important to be brought to people's attention.

More often than not, dukkha has its origin within the individual mind, as the result of wrong view or ignorance/delusion. If you are able to observe its arising within the mind as it is occurring, you are able to locate its source. Having found the source of its arising, observe how it subsides, knowing all the while that it will subside. Then become clear about the path which leads to the cessation of dukkha (i.e. the noble eightfold path). Practice that path with diligence and patience and it will take you to the end of suffering.

Always recognize that you (and you alone) are in control of the suffering that you experience. No one else. You must find your way out using the path that Gotama taught, if that is the vehicle you have chosen.

If you don't have confidence that Daniel, Tarin, Trent, Jeff, myself or any of the others here have been able to achieve this goal, then find different teachers. Speaking to monks isn't necessarily going to help. Many monks are in the same boat you're in, searching for a way out. But I understand what you are saying. You're saying: "...then I can learn [what] I might be missing in my Insight practice." It all comes back to you and what you are doing or not doing to make progress.


If you can see and understand what is being pointed at through the practice of Mindfulness of the Body, there's little reason to spend much time on its practice, once the realization has hit home. Personally, I understood what he was pointing at, the points he was endeavoring to make with regard to existential life. Consequently, I didn't feel the need to focus or spend much time on this practice. This practice was suggested only for those having difficulty comprehending what the Buddha meant about his statements regarding the inherent dissatisfaction of physical life. If one is unable to recognize the inherent dissatisfactory nature of existential life, then perhaps this practice will help bring that realization home.

Thank you for the answers Ian. I am already well into my Insight practise with most likely being a 2nd Path.

But what amazes me to no end is that I find that nobody is answering directly to what I have asked - whether those monks have ended their fear , anger , sorrow etc ? It was only recently that I discovered that Kenneth , Daniel still get nervous , annoyed(maybe very slightly but its still not the end of suffering however you call it) even after being 4rth paths - I am not criticizing them , but just wondering why Daniel , who has written an awesome book and Kenneth , who is running a professional site, would never want to know if the leading monks of our time have achieved the same ? Unfortunately I do not have enough resources to find this out , otherwise I would have tried.

The Buddha taught the end of suffering and it should lead to end of suffering , then why was there a need to practise AF by Trent , Tarin , Jeff ? Can you tell me what path you took ?

Then it may remain a question that you may never learn the answer to until you walk the Path as they did, and find out for yourself. No one can tell you this but yourself. What people are taught to "believe" about the Path and what actually happens may be two different things altogether. The only thing you can do is to walk the path yourself and find out. What's true for one person may not be true for the next person. Everyone experiences their own truth.


So now you have one answer: maybe fourth path doesn't necessarily absolutely end all suffering. What it does do is to allow one to confront any event or circumstance in their life head on, fully aware of the consequences and to deal effectively with whatever affective emotion may arise.

There's a sutta (MN 86) wherein the "murdering bandit" Angulimala, who was taken in by the sangha and trained until he reached arahanthood, was returning from an alms round, where the people recognized him from his bad reputation as a murdering bandit and showed their outrage toward him, hitting him with a clod, a stick, and a potsherd, with blood running from his cut head, with his bowl broken and with his outer robe torn, he approached the Buddha. Gotama saw him coming in the distance and told him: "Bear it, brahmin! Bear it, brahmin! You are experiencing here and now the result of deeds because of which you might have been tortured in hell for many years, for many hundreds of years, for many thousands of years."[824]

In the footnote [824] Bh. Bodhi explains: ". . . any volitional action (kamma) is capable of yielding three kinds of result: a result to be experienced here and now, i.e. in the same life in which the deed is committed; a result to be experienced in the next life existence; and a result to be experienced in any life subsequent to the next, as long as one's sojourn in samsara continues. Because he had attained arahantship, Angulimala had escaped the latter two types of result but not the first, since even arahants are susceptible to experiencing the present life results of actions they performed before attaining arahantship."

Reaching fourth path does not necessarily mean that all suffering ceases. Obviously, physical suffering continues. However, most mental suffering is seen for what it is: as impermanent, unsatisfactory, and without self reference. As such, in time, even the most sever of mental suffering is able to be attenuated and gradually (or even suddenly) done away with. If one hasn't dealt with the asavas (the mental defilements and influxes arising from sensual passion, states of being, views, and ignorance) then these continue to affect one until he deals with them. Whatever mental anguish hasn't been dealt with by the time one reaches arahantship still needs to be dealt with if one wishes to end the suffering they cause.


Not in so many words. As Paul McCarney wrote, it was a long and winding road. I followed the noble eightfold path like everyone else. In addition I read the discourses (as much as was available in printed form, that is) and endeavored to figure out on my own what Gotama was getting at. There's a lot to be said for reading, contemplating, and studying the discourses in one's practice. There's a lot there that many people ignore and never learn about.

I'd be curious in finding this out as well. At least in the DhO and KFDh communities it seems to given that, even after 4th path, emotions will arise, you will get annoyed, etc. They just won't affect you in quite the same way since you'll see them to not be you.

There are also those stories of famous, accepted-to-be-realized Zen monks that had notorious tempers, so it seems they weren't free from feeling some emotions (differently than most, but at least still having them arise and fall).

The only people I've interacted with that seem to have stopped suffering are the AFers. The backlash against AF is funny (especially look at the ending of this thread ) considering it seems a lot closer to the traditional "eliminating the 10 fetters" model of Enlightenment. Maybe your answer lies there?

Ian - Thanks again for the answers , though I used to believe that the traditional Arahant is already the one who has ended his suffering ( except physical suffering ).

I think even Beoman has understood the importance of knowing the answer to my question directly from the monks.

Hello Shashank,

The problem you're going to run into attempting to talk to anyone within the monastic community is that they are under very strict vows not to speak about such things with laypeople, especially within the Theravadin community. It is a Vinaya violation. Very serious in monastic circles. It may sound ridiculous and unfair, but that's just the way things are in religious circles.

So, #1. What I'm saying is: They're not going to talk to you (or anyone else in the lay community for that matter) about their own personal experiences of the path. It's just not going to happen. It's okay for them to discuss such matters amongst themselves, if there is agreement to doing such, but not with lay practitioners. It's a violation of their vows, which they take very seriously.

#2. Even if they were allowed to offer an opinion, it would still be only an opinion and not based on direct personal experience. I don't think that's the kind of information you are seeking, is it. The only thing they can do is to tout the party line. That is, to repeat what is traditionally taught within their own school or sect. Again, this is not the kind of answer you are seeking, is it.

People like Daniel, Tarin, Trent, Jeff Grove, Kenneth Folk et al. are not tied to any religious vows, so they're free to say whatever they like. Yet, beyond this, the best way to approach such questions is to double down on the practice yourself and find out from first hand experience. Like I said before, it doesn't matter what other people have experienced; what matters is what YOU experience. Whether or not a person is able to end ALL affective suffering depends on how diligent they have been in adhering to the practice, whether they have taken all the steps or not. Not everyone follows (or is made aware of) the same steps. So, you're going to run into a variety of opinions on this matter, each of which will reflect the unique experience of the particular practitioner.

All the best,
Ian

Thank you Ian