PCE in terms of 12 links of DO

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Shashank Dixit, modified 13 Years ago at 12/22/10 8:31 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/22/10 8:29 PM

PCE in terms of 12 links of DO

Posts: 282 Join Date: 9/11/10 Recent Posts
Hi there

Although , I have started a bit of my AF practise , but coming from a background of insight practice , I invariably tend to
go back n forth and comparing the two ( just as I am sure all others having a foothold in insight practice have also been ).
I know that my end goal is the end of suffering and I am working towards it , but here is a thought that went by :-

In the 12 links of DO , there is the causal link of vedana leading to bhav ( vedana > tanha > upadana > bhav ). When vedana(feeling) is not arising , then the rest of the causal link is also broken , meaning , bhav ( becoming , the base of I as Goenka says) also doesn't arise.
In terms of a PCE , it is nothing but the feeler self ( vedana ) not arising and hence the thinker Self ( bhav ) not arising. So a PCE experience being a pure sensate one only goes from Sankhar(volition) link to Phasa(contact) link.

- Shashank
Trent , modified 13 Years ago at 12/23/10 9:33 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/23/10 9:33 AM

RE: PCE in terms of 12 links of DO

Posts: 361 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Hello Shashank,

Shashank Dixit:
In terms of a PCE , it is nothing but the feeler self ( vedana ) not arising and hence the thinker Self ( bhav ) not arising. So a PCE experience being a pure sensate one only goes from Sankhar(volition) link to Phasa(contact) link.


It's nice to see such an investigation taking place. Though, I would take it further and say that the PCE is a temporary cessation of ignorance-- the first step in the dependent origination chain. Hence why so much is revealed by one's experiences of the PCE.

Do you think this substantiates the essentiality of naivete (as it pertains to cultivating the PCE)?

Trent
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Shashank Dixit, modified 13 Years ago at 12/23/10 9:47 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/23/10 9:46 PM

RE: PCE in terms of 12 links of DO

Posts: 282 Join Date: 9/11/10 Recent Posts
Hello Trent

It's nice to see such an investigation taking place. Though, I would take it further and say that the PCE is a temporary cessation of ignorance-- the first step in the dependent origination chain. Hence why so much is revealed by one's experiences of the PCE.


Exactly , I too believe this being the case - that PCE is a temporary cessation of ignorance - and AF being a permanent one.

Do you think this substantiates the essentiality of naivete (as it pertains to cultivating the PCE)?


I am not sure but could it be such that the result of sincerity development be the same as the suppression of the 5 hindrances post 4rth samtha jhana so as to be conducive for further investigation ?

It increasingly appears that the end result in both cases the same - ending of suffering, but due to the conditioning before ( sincerity in actualism practice and equanimity in insight practice ) there could be a difference in qualia of the ensuing experience.

But again , I am not 100% sure on anything yet and more field testing is required. I wonder how much of it I'll do though in front of the pull of a PCE emoticon

- Shashank
Trent , modified 13 Years ago at 12/27/10 3:24 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/27/10 3:24 PM

RE: PCE in terms of 12 links of DO

Posts: 361 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Hi,

Shashank Dixit:

I am not sure but could it be such that the result of sincerity development be the same as the suppression of the 5 hindrances post 4rth samtha jhana so as to be conducive for further investigation ?


Yes, that is one way of looking at it; though that is the case all the time (and not just post 4th samatha jhana).

There are many discourses and categories regarding ignorance (ignorance of stress, ignorance of the cessation of stress, specific instances of ignorance, etc.). In the context of a functional view of dependent origination, all forms of ignorance are placed under one umbrella (the 'self'). Ignorance in this case then can be generally thought of as the cumulative identifications (beliefs, world-views, etc.) of a self which are confused with actuality / thought to be part of nibbana / not properly understood to be fabricated by 'me'.

To be naive is to be honest about one's self / one's ignorance / one's fabrications (and the results / kamma of those fabrications) with the pure intent to sincerely dismiss those artificial creations upon recognizing them. It is a general way of orienting one's self in the world as it is happening right now. It is a cultivated quality of being which results in the release of ignorance as a whole (and in the same way that it is a release of ignorance when applied to a single instance of ignorance, such as a belief about one's view of the world). Said another way: it is the tool that both sees ignorance and eradicates it. And so, the application of such often leads spontaneously to the experiencing of pure consciousness, as (to borrow a phrase) it is the closest a self can get to innocence. Said another way: it is like a pathway to the doorstep of the actual world.

Shashank Dixit:
It increasingly appears that the end result in both cases the same - ending of suffering, but due to the conditioning before ( sincerity in actualism practice and equanimity in insight practice ) there could be a difference in qualia of the ensuing experience.


I will need you to define your use of 'equanimity' here for me to reply.

Shashank Dixit:
But again , I am not 100% sure on anything yet and more field testing is required. I wonder how much of it I'll do though in front of the pull of a PCE emoticon


Haha, sounds good; field testing is the way to being 100% sure on anything at all.

Do you see how naivete may also lead to wonder?

Trent
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Shashank Dixit, modified 13 Years ago at 12/28/10 10:51 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/28/10 10:51 AM

RE: PCE in terms of 12 links of DO

Posts: 282 Join Date: 9/11/10 Recent Posts
To be naive is to be honest about one's self / one's ignorance / one's fabrications (and the results / kamma of those fabrications) with the pure intent to sincerely dismiss those artificial creations upon recognizing them


Couldn't agree more !

I will need you to define your use of 'equanimity' here for me to reply.


By equanimity , I mean the equanimity regarding formations. (sankhar-upekkha)

Do you see how naivete may also lead to wonder?


Yeah , there is a wonder that automatically grows upon seeing the magical , "bloomy" world unfolding in front of you. Though I have probably only got glimpses of such and they are pretty unstable , I can safely say that even in those moments , there is such a silence and perfectness of the universe that is 'felt' , that I really won't want to trade anything in place of it.

- Shashank
Trent , modified 13 Years ago at 12/29/10 3:01 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/29/10 3:01 PM

RE: PCE in terms of 12 links of DO

Posts: 361 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Hello,

Shashank Dixit:
By equanimity , I mean the equanimity regarding formations. (sankhar-upekkha)


Okay. In that case, the end of suffering will require both sincerity and equanimity and the ensuing experience (freedom from suffering) will not differ in any substantial way regardless of whichever you decide to emphasize in practice (if you decide such a thing). But hey, don't take my word for it, check it out for yourself.

Trent:
Do you see how naivete may also lead to wonder?

Shashank Dixit:
Yeah , there is a wonder that automatically grows upon seeing the magical , "bloomy" world unfolding in front of you. Though I have probably only got glimpses of such and they are pretty unstable , I can safely say that even in those moments , there is such a silence and perfectness of the universe that is 'felt' , that I really won't want to trade anything in place of it.


By being sensually attentive to this place in space and at this moment in time, you may begin to wonder so much about "what comes next?" that the world stops unfolding in front of you entirely. This universe, where you already always are, is where both safety and stability always abounds. And although there is no trade done in actuality, keep in mind that 'I' can never, ever experience perfection; it is 'me' that has always been standing in the way of this magical paradise.

Trent
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Shashank Dixit, modified 13 Years ago at 12/31/10 10:53 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 12/31/10 10:53 PM

RE: PCE in terms of 12 links of DO

Posts: 282 Join Date: 9/11/10 Recent Posts
Trent H.:
Hello,

Shashank Dixit:
By equanimity , I mean the equanimity regarding formations. (sankhar-upekkha)


Okay. In that case, the end of suffering will require both sincerity and equanimity and the ensuing experience (freedom from suffering) will not differ in any substantial way regardless of whichever you decide to emphasize in practice (if you decide such a thing). But hey, don't take my word for it, check it out for yourself.

Trent:
Do you see how naivete may also lead to wonder?

Shashank Dixit:
Yeah , there is a wonder that automatically grows upon seeing the magical , "bloomy" world unfolding in front of you. Though I have probably only got glimpses of such and they are pretty unstable , I can safely say that even in those moments , there is such a silence and perfectness of the universe that is 'felt' , that I really won't want to trade anything in place of it.


By being sensually attentive to this place in space and at this moment in time, you may begin to wonder so much about "what comes next?" that the world stops unfolding in front of you entirely. This universe, where you already always are, is where both safety and stability always abounds. And although there is no trade done in actuality, keep in mind that 'I' can never, ever experience perfection; it is 'me' that has always been standing in the way of this magical paradise.

Trent


Thank you Trent. Indeed I need to let go of that control , as even Stefannie advised the same.