I had spent the previous sessions working on samatha and accessing the formless jhanas until attaining Nirodha Samapatti the other night but quickly felt the need to return to vipassana exclusively only to find myself very confused and wondering where to go next.

Tonight for example, I sat down to practice but found it incredibly difficult to note any faster than perhaps one or two sensations per second and there's a sense of fuzziness, a lack of clarity and density which has been there for the last few days. It's making me think that perhaps less NS and more AP and now I'm in Dark Night, something which I could accept and readily acknowledge my error, but when I investigate this it doesn't sit right.

There's nothing A&P-esque to what's gone on previously, if anything I could say that there's nothing at all happening other than trying to penetrate this sensation of dullness. It's all feeling quite Dark Night but, again, there's nothing like what I've come to experience as Dark Night as the feeling is totally different. If I were to describe it, it's like listening to music played at about 30bpm, if you've ever heard Sunn0))) then you'll get the idea. The lack of clarity makes it difficult to examine anything deeper than what's going on at the surface of the body, these sensations are actually quite clear but very physical and not at all subtle with the exception of some activity going from the 1st to 4th chakra areas.

Nirodha Samapatti strikes me as being something which would be very difficult to mistake for anything else, particularly the entry to it which is like nothing I've felt before. That I don't know where I am on the 4-Path system doesn't make matters any easier for me either! If attaining NS indicates an anagami then so be it, at least then I'll know but it's more so that I know how to progress than to claim any fancy titles or whatever.

The other point is that getting a Fruition is much more difficult than it was before, if I'm honest I'm struggling to get to low equanimity and have found my experience of going from dissolution to re-observation far more intense than before, particularly the physical aspects such as the shaking.

Can anyone offer any advice on this?

Tommy

I don't have any advice, but I remembered the following citation from MCTB, which I thought I would reproduce here, maybe it is helpful to you:



(my emphasis)

Take care.

Hi Tommy,

I don't know that this will offer any clarity as such, but when I read your original description of your NS experience, I was struck by how accurately it also described my first (and only, I think), A&P experience a few years ago. I have not attained to any path, so in theory, NS is still out of reach for me.

If you're interested in my experience, run a search on the DhO for "TM", and you'll see my post about rising up out of darkness. I'd be interested in your interpretation as well...

PJK

Bruno: I had read that section last night actually and it seemed quite accurate, particularly since today there's a distinct Dark Night vibe to the world today so you could be quite correct. Time, and more vipassana, will tell I suppose!

Patrick: Thanks for your observations, there's definitely major similarities between our experiences here. It's making me more convinced that I've made a total klutz of myself by claiming NS when perhaps it's just been a coincidence that I've hit A&P while trying to attain NS. If you've seen any of my previous posts on here you'll see that I have no idea where I am past stream entry since I've come a different way before finding DhO hence the confusion. Apparently NS is only available to anagamis and arahats so since I haven't "done the work", so to speak, within the Theravadan system it just caused more confusion!

By the way, I really like the way you communicate your experience as it's very evocative and clearly done with some great choice of words!

I came to the conclusion a while ago that I'd abandon trying to figure out where I am on this map but extended experiences of emptiness, formless realm, and other day-to-day experiences of this sort keep occuring and causing me to wonder. To be honest I'd like to have started with vipassana and followed a tried and tested route so that at least spotting these landmarks would be a bit clearer. However, this is the path I've walked and all I can do practice and learn.

Thanks again for your input folks, really appreciate it.

Hi Tommy,

Like you, my own path began in less structured circumstances, and as I've described elsewhere, I've been trying to map my own base of experiences onto the Theravada model...sometimes the connections are clear, sometimes they are not. There was much early confusion for me, as my unguided practice hadn't followed any linear progression, but seemed to represent a sample platter from both concentration and insight levels of meditation. I think that I have a clear understanding now of what I was going through years ago, and am now considering how to proceed from here. I wasn't trying to burst your bubble or anything with my post, but in my own search I have found that frank info was very helpful to me, even if it meant that I wasn't as far ahead as I had hoped ;)

Thanks for the compliments on my writing!
Patrick

I'm with Bruno, here...

1) Ease with meditating, no problem penetrating stuff, clear knowledge of the current cycle, easy Fruitions = Review.

2) Trouble meditating, not knowing which cycle you're at, hard to penetrate stuff, have to work at it again, not getting Fruitions = new cycle.

Nirodha Samapatti instigates a new cycle, so putting that between 1) and 2) is a strong indication.

Take pleasure in the fact that you are having difficulty! Something being hard generally indicates that you're learning new things...

Insert standard disclaimer about this being potentially wrong and time will tell etc.

Beoman: HA! As always your words are appreciated and your presence welcomed

Patrick: Not at all! To be honest I'd be happier having this particular bubble burst as it would make things a whole lot easier for me but I completely agree that frank advice, along with a no bullshit approach and complete honesty with ourselves and other seekers is hugely important. I appreciated the fact that you took the time to give a more grounded suggestion as my head is currently up my metaphorical arse so giving me that consideration certainly let me get a better perspective on things.

I'll be taking a break from posting until I get some more clarity and hopefully be able to come back and say where I am, what's going on and how things are going. I've got more of a sense of knowing where to go in terms of practice and realised that, regardless of where I'm at, noting everything which can be observed both in daily life and during practice is the way forward.

Thank you all again for everything.