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Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch

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Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/14/19 8:22 AM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Dream Walker 8/14/19 12:19 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/14/19 3:15 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/14/19 9:56 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Bob No No 8/14/19 4:55 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Dream Walker 8/14/19 8:20 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/14/19 8:33 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Dream Walker 8/14/19 8:49 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/14/19 9:21 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch spatial 8/14/19 10:07 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/14/19 10:21 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch spatial 8/14/19 10:27 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/14/19 10:36 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch spatial 8/14/19 11:29 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/15/19 12:03 AM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Lars 8/16/19 1:17 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch spatial 8/14/19 9:35 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Chris Marti 8/14/19 9:49 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch spatial 8/14/19 9:58 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Dream Walker 8/14/19 11:04 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Dan Jones 8/16/19 9:22 AM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/16/19 12:07 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch svmonk 8/17/19 12:54 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/17/19 1:36 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch spatial 8/14/19 12:23 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/14/19 3:30 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch spatial 8/14/19 4:08 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Chris Marti 8/14/19 4:11 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/14/19 7:26 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Chris Marti 8/14/19 4:13 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/14/19 8:12 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch spatial 8/14/19 9:16 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Chris Marti 8/14/19 9:24 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Dream Walker 8/14/19 4:46 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/14/19 7:42 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Lars 8/15/19 12:45 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/15/19 12:57 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Dream Walker 8/16/19 2:15 AM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Dream Walker 8/16/19 2:53 AM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/16/19 4:52 AM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/15/19 3:16 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/15/19 3:23 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/15/19 3:51 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/16/19 1:50 AM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/16/19 5:17 AM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch svmonk 8/17/19 12:37 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/17/19 1:28 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch svmonk 8/18/19 4:55 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/18/19 5:58 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch svmonk 8/18/19 9:46 PM
RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/18/19 11:13 PM
I have been wondering for a while if there is a clear distinction between feeling energetic stuff and having great clarity with regard to very finegrained touch sensations. If so, what is it? How does one know which is which?

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 12:19 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Play with sensation "out there at the hand" vs knowing of the sensation over here in the mind. Fun stuff. Noticing shinzen style of in vs out.
Its excellent work to get second path.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 12:23 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I have been wondering for a while if there is a clear distinction between feeling energetic stuff and having great clarity with regard to very finegrained touch sensations. If so, what is it? How does one know which is which?

I don't know the answer to this, but I think your suspicion is correct. Doing things like what Dream Walker suggested seemed to do interesting things for me. This sort of territory put me in a place that makes it really hard to talk about normal things with normal people. I kinda wish somebody had warned me about that. Or, maybe I'm just dark nighting...

I'm really curious to hear what happens next!

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 3:15 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Play with sensation "out there at the hand" vs knowing of the sensation over here in the mind. Fun stuff. Noticing shinzen style of in vs out.
Its excellent work to get second path.



Thanks for the advice! I appreciate it.

I find it much less painful to shift into the mode of just acknowledging that the sensations occur where they occur and are known already in the occurring. That includes the knowing in the mind too, of course; it too occurs where it occurs and is an occurring in itself rather than a perception of something that occurred elsewhere. When I can perceive that, there are much less tensions. I know that, and still I fall back into struggling with it. So yeah, working on that seems like good advice.

The Shinzen style of in vs out actualizes the question I posed, and many similar questions (which I hope is the purpose of the distinction, because otherwise I find it overly simplistic). The subtler the sensations, the more ridiculous the distinction seems. There is no inside, no outside.

I guess I need to rephrase myself a bit... One of the reasons for posing the question is the fact that both the dharma maps in MCTB2 and Culadasa’s model of the jhanas (if I remember correctly) include criteria for when energetic stuff is supposed to occur and not occur. I thought I knew what energetic stuff was, but I’m getting increasingly unsure. Isn’t it all energetic when it comes down to it? Or have I totally misinterpreted the concept? Isn’t it just a matter of how much you zoom in on something (even if the zooming in may also cover relatively large areas - it can still be in finegrained detail)?

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 3:30 PM as a reply to spatial.
spatial:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I have been wondering for a while if there is a clear distinction between feeling energetic stuff and having great clarity with regard to very finegrained touch sensations. If so, what is it? How does one know which is which?

I don't know the answer to this, but I think your suspicion is correct. Doing things like what Dream Walker suggested seemed to do interesting things for me. This sort of territory put me in a place that makes it really hard to talk about normal things with normal people. I kinda wish somebody had warned me about that. Or, maybe I'm just dark nighting...

I'm really curious to hear what happens next!



What is my suspicion then? That there is no distinction? Something else?

Bah, normal people - do they even exist? But sure, there are different degrees of unnormal. The trick is getting to know so many even more weird people that one stops caring, or rather finds joy in the great diversity and in being part of the amazing woo woo club. Let’s celebrate our weirdness! (if this makes you feel worse, please ignore it and forgive me!)

Hm... I don’t think I ever wish that I were able to talk about normal things. I tend to wish that less unnormal people were able to talk about more unnormal things. That would be so much more fun.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 4:08 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
spatial:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I have been wondering for a while if there is a clear distinction between feeling energetic stuff and having great clarity with regard to very finegrained touch sensations. If so, what is it? How does one know which is which?

I don't know the answer to this, but I think your suspicion is correct. Doing things like what Dream Walker suggested seemed to do interesting things for me. This sort of territory put me in a place that makes it really hard to talk about normal things with normal people. I kinda wish somebody had warned me about that. Or, maybe I'm just dark nighting...

I'm really curious to hear what happens next!



What is my suspicion then? That there is no distinction? Something else?


I assumed your suspicion is that there is no distinction.

I think I am agreeing with that suspicion. It does seem like everything is energetic. Things just aren't what they appear to be. So much of what appears to be a "thing" is actually more like "my reaction to the thing". And not just in a straightforward way, like "the thing is actually nothing more than an image of the thing". But, it includes stuff like the whole process of pulling my attention off of whatever it was on before, and putting it onto the "thing". Which involves destroying other "things", and creating this "thing". It involves moving and stabilizing the body in such a way that this "thing" can be maintained. It involves having emotional reactions (do I like/dislike the "thing"?), constructing a sense of where it is in space, what are the possibilities of interacting with it, what might the future/past hold with respect to it, how it's changing or staying the same, etc. And this affects everything else that's going on at the same time.

It's like nothing is really happening to you...you're just creating it all in real-time.

That seems obvious on some level, but....I've noticed that it's not obvious, and if you are going in with the assumption that there's a me to whom things are happening (which is a completely normal assumption that is reinforced by the very fabric of human language, and thus by any possible meditation instruction, it would seem), then things get really weird and stressful. They get stressful because you are expecting some stability in the sense of the relationship between the watcher and the watched, and that stability is inevitably shattered in every possible way (just by the mere act of being a conscious creature), at some point or another. So, if you keep insisting on it, you will suffer.

It's all very confusing to me, but it does seem like the more I can come to terms with this, the more smoothly things seem to go. Or, maybe it's the other way around.


Hm... I don’t think I ever wish that I were able to talk about normal things. I tend to wish that less unnormal people were able to talk about more unnormal things. That would be so much more fun.

Oh, absolutely!

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 4:13 PM as a reply to spatial.
This sort of territory put me in a place that makes it really hard to talk about normal things with normal people. I kinda wish somebody had warned me about that. Or, maybe I'm just dark nighting...


Nah.

I once was at a meditation conference with Kenneth Folk and a friend of mine, a new practitioner, was opining at one of the receptions about how he could direct his attention in certain ways and all. KF and I looked at each other and started to laugh, which of course caused a deep and lengthy conversation with my other friend about attention, the great mystery that it is and it can be, and how it's really pretty obvious that "directing" attention is a chimera, an after-the-fact illusion of sorts.

I say all this so that I can tell you that what you now know, deep, deep down from your own personal experience, is great cocktail party and drunk/high conversation material. Use it to scare and mystify your friends. You can be the Eddie Murphy of the room!

 Things just aren't what they appear to be.

Exactly!

emoticon

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 4:11 PM as a reply to spatial.
They get stressful because you are expecting some stability in the sense of the relationship between the watcher and the watched, and that stability is inevitably shattered in every possible way (just by the mere act of being a conscious creature), at some point or another. So, if you keep insisting on it, you will suffer.

You will get used to all this - really, and truly. I shit you not.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 4:46 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I have been wondering for a while if there is a clear distinction between feeling energetic stuff and having great clarity with regard to very finegrained touch sensations. If so, what is it? How does one know which is which?
Well, the vibrations of the sensation a of touch are the same as the pixelization of vision, which is the same as the nada sound of the ears. All are expressions of the "vipassana" speed of mind approaching the speed of the attentional system. Investigation of these expressions will tell ya some stuff about them. Are vibrations overlapping with touch? Are they in the same "space"? In here or out there? Same time or a delay? I can see even though it's pixels/visual snow, I can hear thru the nada sound, so what's really happening here? I got some good mileage investing this stuff. 
Good luck,
~D

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 4:55 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Play with sensation "out there at the hand" vs knowing of the sensation over here in the mind. Fun stuff. Noticing shinzen style of in vs out.
Its excellent work to get second path.

Why is it excellent work to get second path?

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 7:26 PM as a reply to spatial.
Very well put, Spatial, and great observations!

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 8:12 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:

I say all this so that I can tell you that what you now know, deep, deep down from your own personal experience, is great cocktail party and drunk/high conversation material. Use it to scare and mystify your friends. You can be the Eddie Murphy of the room!


Haha! I may have done that a few times. I may have done that sober too.

I like your sense of humor. emoticon

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 7:42 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:

Well, the vibrations of the sensation a of touch are the same as the pixelization of vision, which is the same as the nada sound of the ears. All are expressions of the "vipassana" speed of mind approaching the speed of the attentional system.

That’s almost exactly what I said to Michael Taft about my subjective experience when I was working with him against first path. At least that’s what I meant. I was probably less eloquent.

Dream Walker:

Investigation of these expressions will tell ya some stuff about them. Are vibrations overlapping with touch? Are they in the same "space"? In here or out there? Same time or a delay? I can see even though it's pixels/visual snow, I can hear thru the nada sound, so what's really happening here? I got some good mileage investing this stuff. 
Good luck,
~D


Thanks! I have been thinking in a similar vein but couldn’t put it into words as clearly. This was very helpful. I’ve got a valid track to follow then.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 8:20 PM as a reply to Bob No No.
Bob No No:
Dream Walker:
Play with sensation "out there at the hand" vs knowing of the sensation over here in the mind. Fun stuff. Noticing shinzen style of in vs out.
Its excellent work to get second path.

Why is it excellent work to get second 
It's my opinion that first path is identification of sensations as you. Second path is identification of thoughts and the mental echo of sensations as you. Exploring those more subtle things bare fruit. Try it and see.
It's my framework of awakening thread.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 8:33 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Hm... The practice leading up to my stream entry investigated the impermanence of the mental echoes of sensations that apparently falsely assumed to be the self; apparent because these ”subjective points” were impermanent and popped up in different places with no continuity in-between them.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 8:49 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Hm... The practice leading up to my stream entry investigated the impermanence of the mental echoes of sensations that apparently falsely assumed to be the self; apparent because these ”subjective points” were impermanent and popped up in different places with no continuity in-between them.
Ah, then you've mined those grounds with some benifits. Look again to see if there might but be a bit more to find, especially with body boundaries and space. Where exactly does stuff happen? How is location created? Think about vectors and deconstruction of spacial limits.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 9:16 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I say all this so that I can tell you that what you now know, deep, deep down from your own personal experience, is great cocktail party and drunk/high conversation material. Use it to scare and mystify your friends. You can be the Eddie Murphy of the room!
This will take some practice, but I can imagine the possibilities... emoticon

Chris Marti:

You will get used to all this - really, and truly. I shit you not.


Here's a question. Is fourth path when you still do all the normal stuff:

- you still know where things are
- you still have a sense of being here, and other stuff is over there
- you still have a sense of being a separate entity
- you still have a sense of having free will
- you still have a sense of past, future, attention, awareness
- etc.

except that you don't do that peculiar thing where you make your head hurt trying to do all of that? I'm certainly not there, but I'm just wondering if that's where this is all heading.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 9:21 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Will do. I’m sure that further deconstructions of space are needed. I have had a jhanic experience where time was no longer sequential, but instead it was spatially organized. I probably need to see through space more in order to have that collapse as well. Ironically, I have only recently learned to view space in a relatively ”normal” way. Maybe it would have been more helpful not to learn to have images of how the body occupies space according to mainstream views. I blame the yoga.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 9:24 PM as a reply to spatial.
Here's a question. Is fourth path when you still do all the normal stuff:

The normal stuff never disappears. You will just know what it actually is, and you will stop believing those stories.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 9:35 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Bob No No:
Dream Walker:
Play with sensation "out there at the hand" vs knowing of the sensation over here in the mind. Fun stuff. Noticing shinzen style of in vs out.
Its excellent work to get second path.

Why is it excellent work to get second 
It's my opinion that first path is identification of sensations as you. Second path is identification of thoughts and the mental echo of sensations as you. Exploring those more subtle things bare fruit. Try it and see.
It's my framework of awakening thread.
I'm having a hard time understanding this description. Could you please give some examples?

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 9:49 PM as a reply to spatial.
I'm having a hard time understanding this description. Could you please give some examples?

What, you don't want to bare fruit?

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 9:56 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Could somebody please clarify what is meant by energetic stuff? Does the concept include all these fine-grained vibrations? Or does it only refer to very obvious Kundalini stuff such as flashes, explosions and heatwaves?

However, jokes and advice are welcome too. emoticon

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 9:58 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I'm having a hard time understanding this description. Could you please give some examples?

What, you don't want to bare fruit?
Not in public! 

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 10:07 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Will do. I’m sure that further deconstructions of space are needed. I have had a jhanic experience where time was no longer sequential, but instead it was spatially organized. I probably need to see through space more in order to have that collapse as well. Ironically, I have only recently learned to view space in a relatively ”normal” way. Maybe it would have been more helpful not to learn to have images of how the body occupies space according to mainstream views. I blame the yoga.
What is a "normal" way? What did yoga do to you?

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 10:21 PM as a reply to spatial.
Yoga gave me mental images of my body as it occupies space. I didn’t have that before. When I closed my eyes and focused on body parts, visualizing them took an enormous effort. My default mode was for them to experience themselves with the tactile sense. I only had access to them from inside, so to speak. Now there is an overlay of a visual perspective that claims that they are ”over there”. This feels like developing in the wrong direction. On the other hand, dramatically improved abilities to move the body with precision is very helpful indeed. I don’t collide with things and people as much, and balancing is less difficult. I also appraciate being able to do the asanas correctly because I can translate the sensory input into an image of what it looks like. And now if I close my eyes, I can actually remember the looks of my immediate surrounding and my spatial position. That’s convenient in daily life. Still, it annoys me that my eyes think that they are the subjective point. The hell they are.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 10:27 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Yoga gave me mental images of my body as it occupies space. I didn’t have that before. When I closed my eyes and focused on body parts, visualizing them took an enormous effort. My default mode was for them to experience themselves with the tactile sense. I only had access to them from inside, so to speak. Now there is an overlay of a visual perspective that claims that they are ”over there”. This feels like developing in the wrong direction. On the other hand, dramatically improved abilities to move the body with precision is very helpful indeed. I don’t collide with things and people as much, and balancing is less difficult. I also appraciate being able to do the asanas correctly because I can translate the sensory input into an image of what it looks like. And now if I close my eyes, I can actually remember the looks of my immediate surrounding and my spatial position. That’s convenient in daily life. Still, it annoys me that my eyes think that they are the subjective point. The hell they are.

Why do you think yoga triggered this? Do you think it's because you hadn't spent a lot of time doing physical activity before?

Your eyes are the subjective point when it comes to looking at your body, aren't they?

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 10:36 PM as a reply to spatial.
It was the first time I had the chance to translate the experiences into images and the images into experiences in a way that I could process.

Well, yeah, sort of, but only with regard to perception, not in general. And it’s not really that simple either. The raw sensory input of seeing occurs where the so called object is, doesn’t it? Not that there are distinct objects; it’s all rather a messy stream. The categories and limits are mental constructions. Then the sensory data is processed in collaboration between the eyes and the brain. ”Seeing” is a whole bunch of processes that people tend to regard as a single entity. And space is a construct too, anyway, isn’t it? Just because our minds need that kind of organization of information.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/14/19 11:29 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
It was the first time I had the chance to translate the experiences into images and the images into experiences in a way that I could process.

Well, yeah, sort of, but only with regard to perception, not in general. And it’s not really that simple either. The raw sensory input of seeing occurs where the so called object is, doesn’t it? Not that there are distinct objects; it’s all rather a messy stream. The categories and limits are mental constructions. Then the sensory data is processed in collaboration between the eyes and the brain. ”Seeing” is a whole bunch of processes that people tend to regard as a single entity. And space is a construct too, anyway, isn’t it? Just because our minds need that kind of organization of information.
I wonder if you're experiencing what I mentioned in a different thread, about how I said that I had to stop trying to control my eyes. It sounds like you might be getting bothered by something similar. It was driving me crazy...knowing that my eyes didn't have to move, but they still did, anyway. It got so bad on my retreat last year, I thought meditation was permanently messing up my eye muscles. Eventually, I let them do whatever they wanted to do. My suspicion now is that my eyes were always doing those things, and I had just never noticed it before. I'm guessing that so much of our perception of where things are located is wrapped up in eye movements. I don't know. The idea of bringing my attention to any object without moving my eyes is laughable at this point. It just seems to be an intrinsic part of the process.

There have been several times where I got frustrated that some new, weird movement or sensation was occurring somewhere in my body, seemingly out of my control, and then I realized that I'm probably just suddenly noticing a fundamental process that I had been taking for granted up to that point. Occasionally, that has happened after panicky, sleepness nights or trips to the doctor.

I wonder if this visual imagery really is totally new for you, or if you just never noticed it. When I close my eyes and focus on body parts, I get a ton of images, some zoomed in, some zoomed out, some from the perspective of my eyes, some from other angles. I don't know if those were always there, or if meditation has trained me to notice them.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/15/19 12:03 AM as a reply to spatial.
No, that’s a different phenomenon. I have had that too, or something similar.

Well... I’m fairly certain that I had significantly less of a body image than what is normal. That manifested as very obvious clumsiness too. Also, my sense of direction was a joke. I basically had a linear sense of space. If I had memorized the way between A and B and between B and C, then in order to move from A to C I would move like A-B-C even if A and C were next to each other. In my view of the world, the possibility for a shortcut between A and C didn’t make sense. I couldn’t process that. I learned that before yoga, though, but at the age of 35 or something like that. Seriously.

People who didn’t believe me when I said that I had very little visual thinking asked me to visualize the wall behind me with my eyes closed. I could easily remember the tactile sensations of touching the wall, the sound of various touches of it, and even the smell of the wall paper. I could not recall the color and pattern of it. It turned out to be plain white when I checked. I had lived there for more than a decade, and it was the room in which I spent most of my time.

There was probably a glitch somewhere in the processing chain. Once the connection was made, it didn’t take long to develop visual imagery. Most of the links were probably in place.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/15/19 12:45 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Well, the vibrations of the sensation a of touch are the same as the pixelization of vision, which is the same as the nada sound of the ears. All are expressions of the "vipassana" speed of mind approaching the speed of the attentional system.

Thanks, this really clarifies something i'd suspected for a while. Occasionally during more intensive practise periods vipassana speed has started to sync with attentional speed (causing all kinds of "interesting" stuff) but i'm not sure i've ever managed to actually match the speeds. Out of curiosity, what would happen if a second pather did the same exercise and got up to that speed? Fruition instead of another path? Sorry Polly, don't mean to threadjack.   emoticon

I think you actually brought the thread more back to topic. No problem. I’m interested in the answer too.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/15/19 3:16 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I have been wondering for a while if there is a clear distinction between feeling energetic stuff and having great clarity with regard to very finegrained touch sensations. If so, what is it? How does one know which is which?
Well, the vibrations of the sensation a of touch are the same as the pixelization of vision, which is the same as the nada sound of the ears. All are expressions of the "vipassana" speed of mind approaching the speed of the attentional system. Investigation of these expressions will tell ya some stuff about them. Are vibrations overlapping with touch? Are they in the same "space"? In here or out there? Same time or a delay? I can see even though it's pixels/visual snow, I can hear thru the nada sound, so what's really happening here? I got some good mileage investing this stuff. 
Good luck,
~D


If by inner and outer you mean the distinction between mind generated and coming through the sense organs, then there is a distinction of course. Is that what you are getting at? And does ”energetic” mean having to do with mind generated tactile sensations? In that case I even less understand why there would be no energetic stuff in EQ. It is much subtler, indeed, but it is there.

I need to learn to use the wording ”tactile sensations” rather than the sloppy wording ”touch sensations”, because otherwise it gets misleading. Being a non-native speaker, I haven’t quite grasped the difference in the wordings.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/15/19 3:23 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Does this mean that opening a chakra menas learning to access that field with one’s intentions? Not that one is in control, because the intentions are conditioned anyway.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/15/19 3:51 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
But even if something is mind generated, it probably manifests materially somehow. I mean, the jhanas are mind generated but there are neurotransmittors involved. To the extent that anything is material, they are. And the spreading of neurotransmittors can be sensed. There are tactile sensations involved in that. So in that sense, the distinction is messy.

But I guess that those who are fully absorbed are too busy to notice those tactile sensations. Maybe that’s the point.

I listened to a dharma talk by Ayya Khema who explained that the word viriya (?) is often translated as energy but she preferred the translation willpower, or something like that, and that suddenly made it much more tangible for me. The word energy is too abstract. But relevant, I guess, because that sort of makes Einstein’s theory of relativity an explanation of nonduality as well. Cool. So... energy is sort of a propensity for things to happen, whereas matter is the manifestation. Wouldn’t it be really cool if the mathematical calculation were valid for magick as well?

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/16/19 1:50 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
But... if energy is the propensity for something to happen, what does that make stagnated energies? Some kind of somatized procrastination of the universe? That would be so typical. Procrastination is a real problem for me, so why wouldn’t this bodily pain be due to some form of procrastination too? Stagnated energies is the best explanatory model I can come up with for it, because practices that are supposedly balancing energies is the only thing that cures it. The manifestation of it seems to be inflammation, but the explanatory model of inflammation says that the cure is rest and antiinflammatory medz, both of which only make it worse (antiinflammatory medication causes histamine reactions in individuals with histamine intolerance).

So... Is the pain really intentions of the universe that I have failed to recognize and do something about, or resisted? That’s an interesting perspective.

If I’m just rambling nonsense now, please tell me straightforwardly.

Lars:
Dream Walker:
Well, the vibrations of the sensation a of touch are the same as the pixelization of vision, which is the same as the nada sound of the ears. All are expressions of the "vipassana" speed of mind approaching the speed of the attentional system.

Thanks, this really clarifies something i'd suspected for a while. Occasionally during more intensive practise periods vipassana speed has started to sync with attentional speed (causing all kinds of
"interesting" stuff) but i'm not sure i've ever managed to actually match the speeds. Out of curiosity, what would happen if a second pather did the same exercise and got up to that speed? Fruition instead of another path? Sorry Polly, don't mean to threadjack.   emoticon
My opinion is that described in my framework. Second path people looking towords third will have a lot to look at. Boundaries and opening up each sense door. The attentional system filters out data as well as selecting the door, you can open each door wider but the selection is just a part of reality at this point. Once each door is open( maybe with fruitions or not, unimportant at this point) permanently then that's third path. Get to looking at the constraints of each door and how to open it wider. High concentration ànd investigation. Delete those things that are running in the background that cause delusion.
~D

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/16/19 2:53 AM as a reply to Dream Walker.
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5593904#_19_message_5593904

Oh my goodness, time has flied, but fun to reread classic stuff. Hahaha.
~D

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/16/19 4:52 AM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Lars:
Dream Walker:
Well, the vibrations of the sensation a of touch are the same as the pixelization of vision, which is the same as the nada sound of the ears. All are expressions of the "vipassana" speed of mind approaching the speed of the attentional system.

Thanks, this really clarifies something i'd suspected for a while. Occasionally during more intensive practise periods vipassana speed has started to sync with attentional speed (causing all kinds of
"interesting" stuff) but i'm not sure i've ever managed to actually match the speeds. Out of curiosity, what would happen if a second pather did the same exercise and got up to that speed? Fruition instead of another path? Sorry Polly, don't mean to threadjack.   emoticon
My opinion is that described in my framework. Second path people looking towords third will have a lot to look at. Boundaries and opening up each sense door. The attentional system filters out data as well as selecting the door, you can open each door wider but the selection is just a part of reality at this point. Once each door is open( maybe with fruitions or not, unimportant at this point) permanently then that's third path. Get to looking at the constraints of each door and how to open it wider. High concentration ànd investigation. Delete those things that are running in the background that cause delusion.
~D


Oh, do they open permanently*?! That would be such a great relief! So that is what I’m struggling with. That makes total sense. Thankyou!

But... what happens with my ADHD then? Maybe I should be grateful that it involves attention deficit, not awareness deficit.

*) I’m assuming that it’s not really permanent, but rather something that is there while there is awareness, and when there is no awareness, we don’t notice its absence because we are not aware anyway.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/16/19 5:17 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
But... if energy is the propensity for something to happen, what does that make stagnated energies? Some kind of somatized procrastination of the universe? That would be so typical. Procrastination is a real problem for me, so why wouldn’t this bodily pain be due to some form of procrastination too? Stagnated energies is the best explanatory model I can come up with for it, because practices that are supposedly balancing energies is the only thing that cures it. The manifestation of it seems to be inflammation, but the explanatory model of inflammation says that the cure is rest and antiinflammatory medz, both of which only make it worse (antiinflammatory medication causes histamine reactions in individuals with histamine intolerance).

So... Is the pain really intentions of the universe that I have failed to recognize and do something about, or resisted? That’s an interesting perspective.

If I’m just rambling nonsense now, please tell me straightforwardly.


Maybe what yoga and qigong do is working with intention and learning both to avert distractions from it and letting it transform into action/occurrings? Having the exchange between propensity of happening and actual happening and the resulting manifestation flow more freely?

I have a hunch that this kind of exchange is key to the current layer. That would also explain why my executive dyscfunction and attention deficit seem to be laid bare in such a challenging way. Interesting.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/16/19 9:22 AM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Play with sensation "out there at the hand" vs knowing of the sensation over here in the mind. Fun stuff. Noticing shinzen style of in vs out.
Its excellent work to get second path.
Hmm, this was a bit of a confusing instruction and either it's got an assumption that turns out to be false later from further investigation / insight, or I'm missing something. 

To me, right now, it seems not inconcievable (because I used to view it this way) but simply not 'true' that there is some sort of 'knowing' over 'here' in the mind distinct from the sensation over 'there'

It's been different in the past, but for me in my every day default mode, the 'knowing' of the sensation is at the location of the sensation. Then, there might be this *seperate sensation* that's something like "knowing" in the head, but then that is located just there, where its arising, in the same away the knowing of the sound of the plane is located just there with the plane. The "knowing in the head" this is usually some place I identify with, but that is also a sensation, it doesn't arise simultaneously, but in quick succession after, no different to hearing a plane pass over-head then feeling cold. Sometimes I still feel this 'knowing' is taking place in my head, as it's also common to identify with my hand but not always, especially as it seems the sensations go on all by themselves and do what ever they want to do. But under conditions of reaction or protection, that's my hand! Don't hurt it! emoticon

It depends on contexts: when I am in social groups or there's environmental factors that require identification (protect this body, fear, ego, etc) then it's there, but in other contexts of 'seclusion', eg safe in my bed at night, early morning, etc, it dissipates away and knowing is just what is arising, there's nothing else or thing that is the "knowing".

I guess this point is an interesting one to have to understand different views of insights etc. 


EDIT: I better keep it on topic with OP's question. so OP I think what you are asking is an anthropological question, dependent on what people mean by 'energetic'. In the case of someone practicing vipassana, for me, I have experienced chills running up and down my spine, aeroplanes passing overhead, the sound of traffic, and the smell of petrol, flowers and farts. However, the chills running up and down the spine thing usually seems co-habitant with fine-grained awareness.

Now I'm not sure this is what everyone means by 'energetic', because, for instance, when I hear people in some other yogic tradition, say Yoga with breath work, talking about controlling the breath and kundalini phenomena, I feel they've missed something, which is the pure observation aspect, and that these things arise in accordance with causes and conditions, they can't be controlled, so in that context, I fail to see how it's possible that fine-grained awareness has developed when they are trying to disturb the natural breath but deliberatly breathing in certain ways, maybe what they mean by "energetic" or "qi" is different, but it's absolutely mystifying to me what they could mean, unless they also mean this ASMR-type thing I'm used to experiencing all the time that began when I first started vipassana practice on a retreat.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/16/19 12:07 PM as a reply to Dan Jones.
I agree with you first section, Dan. And yes, it was an anthropological question, sort of, in order to understand people’s distinctions about nanas and jhanas.

As for working with qi or prana or kundalini, I’m thinking that there is a magickal aspect to it where intention makes a difference. That adds up because we cannot control our intention. We can be more in tune with it, but when working towards that, there is no doing, but that was what was already happening.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/16/19 1:17 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Thanks for the reply, took a look through your framework again (read through parts of it a year or so ago). One thing I noticed was that now that vision problems are getting worse I couldn't read the map anymore. The black on dark grey text in the middle area is tough for someone with eye issues. I did a quick and dirty edit to make it readable (made the black text in the boxes white), but I can't seem to upload images to attach here anymore, just linking to outside images. Is it not possible to upload images here anymore?

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/17/19 12:37 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I think the Sanskirt term "prana" is more accurate than "energy". There are some words which are difficult to translate accurately in Dharma practice.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/17/19 12:54 PM as a reply to Dan Jones.
The image of the hand in the mind is cognitive, and subject to clinging ("my" hand). The actual sensation in the hand as it arises is at the level of "contact" in the Twelve Links and is not cognitively accessable AFIK. The sensation percieved in the hand is at the level of "feeling" in the Twelve Links and is percieved as part of the subtle body. The subtle body is where the mind meets the body. In a certain sense, it is not objective but rather a way to organize sensation and feeling into a concept that allows conceptualiztion around, the way the physical body is for organizing physical cause/effect.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/17/19 1:28 PM as a reply to svmonk.
svmonk:
I think the Sanskirt term "prana" is more accurate than "energy". There are some words which are difficult to translate accurately in Dharma practice.


That’s interesting. How would you define it?

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
Answer
8/17/19 1:36 PM as a reply to svmonk.
svmonk:
The image of the hand in the mind is cognitive, and subject to clinging ("my" hand). The actual sensation in the hand as it arises is at the level of "contact" in the Twelve Links and is not cognitively accessable AFIK. The sensation percieved in the hand is at the level of "feeling" in the Twelve Links and is percieved as part of the subtle body. The subtle body is where the mind meets the body. In a certain sense, it is not objective but rather a way to organize sensation and feeling into a concept that allows conceptualiztion around, the way the physical body is for organizing physical cause/effect.


Thanks! Yeah, as long as it is recognized as ”my hand” there must be some conceptualization to it. That recognition gradually dissolves, though, as concentration and clarity deepen.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
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8/18/19 4:55 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
See here.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
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8/18/19 5:58 PM as a reply to svmonk.
That was an interesting read.

I still don’t understand what kind of energetic stuff is only accessable in some nanas.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
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8/18/19 9:46 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I am no expert in the maps so I can't say what the connection is.

But from my understanding, prana, nadis, chakras and bindus are an alternative to the Western way of conceputualizing the body-mind connection, based largely on tantra, both Buddhist and Hindu. Whereas in the Western model, causality runs strictly from the physical to the mental, in the tantric model, causality runs in both directions.

RE: Distinction between energetic stuff and finegrained sense of touch
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8/18/19 11:13 PM as a reply to svmonk.
Yes, that is a huge limitation to the Western model despite its great successfulness in other way. Yoga is what keeps me healthy where biomedicine has failed. I had chronic fatigue to the extent that I had to lie down while I was cooking food. Any amount of physical strain gave me flue-like symptoms. Now I do yoga several times a week. If I fail to do so, the symptoms come back.