RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Culadasa Misconduct Allegations JP 8/20/19 9:02 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 8/20/19 10:24 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Babs _ 8/20/19 11:07 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Dada Kind 8/20/19 11:34 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Babs _ 8/20/19 12:35 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations neko 8/21/19 3:43 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Griffin 8/21/19 5:19 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations neko 8/21/19 5:42 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Ben V. 8/20/19 11:33 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Edward 8/20/19 12:18 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 8/20/19 12:22 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Richard Zen 9/14/19 12:21 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Ben V. 8/21/19 10:59 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Jordi 8/20/19 1:24 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/20/19 1:02 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Not two, not one 8/20/19 10:58 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/21/19 2:58 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations YCR 8/21/19 3:00 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/21/19 3:02 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Babs _ 8/21/19 6:29 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations neko 8/21/19 7:18 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations neko 8/21/19 3:51 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Not two, not one 8/21/19 4:24 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations neko 8/21/19 5:10 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Daniel M. Ingram 8/21/19 5:56 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Babs _ 8/21/19 5:01 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations JohnM 8/22/19 11:32 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Griffin 8/29/19 6:50 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/29/19 7:39 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Daniel M. Ingram 8/30/19 3:30 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/30/19 4:00 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Laurel Carrington 8/30/19 9:02 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations spatial 8/30/19 9:38 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 8/30/19 10:10 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Not two, not one 8/21/19 5:17 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations neko 8/22/19 4:24 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Jinxed P 8/22/19 10:07 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 8/21/19 7:24 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Paul 8/21/19 7:30 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Ryan 8/21/19 8:47 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations S. 8/21/19 9:31 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Babs _ 8/21/19 10:10 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 8/21/19 11:44 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Babs _ 8/21/19 1:10 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Ryan 8/21/19 1:30 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Stirling Campbell 8/21/19 1:40 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Babs _ 8/21/19 2:05 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Stirling Campbell 8/21/19 3:59 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Babs _ 8/21/19 5:11 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Stirling Campbell 8/21/19 5:38 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations svmonk 8/21/19 10:39 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations YCR 8/21/19 3:03 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Shaun Steelgrave 8/21/19 8:17 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations S. 8/21/19 9:59 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/21/19 2:23 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations S. 8/21/19 2:45 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/21/19 3:10 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Blue Jay 8/21/19 9:52 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Edward 8/21/19 10:06 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Monsoon Frog 8/21/19 7:06 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Siavash ' 8/21/19 8:50 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Fastlane 8/22/19 4:05 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Monsoon Frog 8/22/19 6:00 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Michael 8/22/19 6:19 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 8/22/19 7:11 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations neko 8/22/19 4:28 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Siavash ' 8/22/19 2:57 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations mushi 8/22/19 5:04 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Babs _ 8/23/19 6:21 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 8/23/19 6:43 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Babs _ 8/23/19 7:07 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 8/23/19 7:39 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/23/19 7:50 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Babs _ 8/23/19 8:36 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/23/19 8:49 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Siavash ' 8/22/19 10:16 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Ben V. 8/23/19 7:31 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations spatial 8/23/19 4:49 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 8/23/19 5:09 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations spatial 8/23/19 6:40 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Ben V. 8/23/19 5:21 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 8/23/19 5:23 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Siavash ' 8/23/19 5:34 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Ben V. 8/24/19 8:19 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/24/19 8:31 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Laurel Carrington 8/24/19 9:28 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations spatial 8/23/19 5:50 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations spatial 8/23/19 6:05 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Siavash ' 8/23/19 6:08 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Stirling Campbell 8/23/19 8:54 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Sugar Dharma Daddy 8/24/19 4:34 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/24/19 5:07 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Not two, not one 8/23/19 8:08 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/24/19 5:39 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Smiling Stone 8/24/19 7:07 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/24/19 8:41 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Smiling Stone 8/24/19 9:12 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/24/19 9:19 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations A. Dietrich Ringle 8/23/19 5:36 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Raving Rhubarb 8/26/19 5:39 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Babs _ 8/26/19 8:12 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Laurel Carrington 8/26/19 9:01 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Daniel M. Ingram 8/26/19 9:28 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Raving Rhubarb 8/28/19 8:03 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Ben V. 8/28/19 9:57 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Dhamma_no_drama Dhamma_no_drama 8/28/19 11:57 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations shargrol 8/28/19 10:11 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 8/28/19 11:00 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Shaun Steelgrave 8/28/19 11:10 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/28/19 12:23 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Shaun Steelgrave 8/26/19 9:23 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Raving Rhubarb 8/27/19 1:22 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/27/19 2:27 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Noah D 8/28/19 6:36 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 8/28/19 6:58 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Bames Jond 8/29/19 11:33 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 8/29/19 11:49 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/29/19 12:03 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Siavash ' 8/29/19 2:07 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/29/19 2:19 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Siavash ' 8/29/19 2:35 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/30/19 8:40 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Siavash ' 8/30/19 9:34 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Griffin 8/29/19 2:40 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Bames Jond 8/29/19 3:04 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/29/19 3:08 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations spatial 8/29/19 5:23 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/30/19 1:27 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations spatial 8/30/19 9:31 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/5/19 5:43 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/30/19 9:00 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Siavash ' 8/30/19 9:45 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Laurel Carrington 8/29/19 12:59 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Paul Anthony 8/29/19 2:05 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/30/19 8:46 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Tom C 9/5/19 4:22 AM
John Yates Misconduct Edward 9/5/19 4:57 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Not two, not one 9/5/19 5:31 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Tom C 9/5/19 6:07 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Raving Rhubarb 9/7/19 4:11 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Ward Law 9/5/19 9:52 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Tom C 9/5/19 9:58 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/5/19 10:16 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Tom C 9/5/19 10:59 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Siavash ' 9/5/19 12:41 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/5/19 1:49 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Chris M 9/5/19 1:51 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Tom C 9/5/19 4:49 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations shargrol 9/5/19 6:00 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations spatial 9/5/19 6:13 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations neko 9/6/19 3:42 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Edward 9/6/19 4:02 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations neko 9/6/19 5:59 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/6/19 7:54 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations neko 9/6/19 8:02 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/6/19 8:06 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/6/19 8:14 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/6/19 8:23 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Edward 9/6/19 8:40 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations neko 9/6/19 9:00 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/6/19 11:37 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations neko 9/6/19 8:50 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/6/19 11:38 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations neko 9/7/19 3:36 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/7/19 7:22 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Raving Rhubarb 9/6/19 4:25 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Tom C 9/6/19 5:59 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations neko 9/6/19 6:18 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Tom C 9/6/19 6:25 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Chris M 9/6/19 7:31 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Chris M 9/6/19 7:16 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Tom C 9/7/19 6:43 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Chris M 9/7/19 2:31 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations svmonk 9/7/19 8:26 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Shaun Steelgrave 9/7/19 8:35 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations svmonk 9/8/19 7:37 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Adam 9/8/19 8:09 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations JohnM 9/9/19 5:27 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/9/19 5:41 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations JohnM 9/9/19 5:54 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/9/19 8:48 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations shargrol 9/9/19 9:09 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Edward 9/9/19 10:32 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations JohnM 9/9/19 11:34 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations shargrol 9/9/19 8:24 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/9/19 6:49 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations JohnM 9/9/19 11:32 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations neko 9/6/19 7:32 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/6/19 8:08 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations shargrol 9/6/19 6:40 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Tom C 9/6/19 6:30 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations shargrol 9/6/19 6:46 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Tom C 9/6/19 7:26 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Edward 9/6/19 7:49 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations shargrol 9/9/19 6:11 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/9/19 6:44 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Tom C 9/9/19 8:22 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations shargrol 9/9/19 8:59 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Monsoon Frog 9/10/19 1:51 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations shargrol 9/10/19 5:53 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/10/19 6:30 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/11/19 1:25 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Griffin 9/9/19 7:42 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations shargrol 9/9/19 4:04 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations spatial 9/9/19 8:51 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Stirling Campbell 9/11/19 12:15 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Not two, not one 9/9/19 8:11 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Griffin 9/13/19 6:46 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Santiago Jimenez 9/13/19 7:02 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/13/19 8:34 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Milo 9/14/19 1:10 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/14/19 8:00 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Milo 9/14/19 11:30 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Griffin 9/14/19 5:10 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Ben V. 9/14/19 6:48 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/14/19 6:55 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/14/19 7:58 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/14/19 8:18 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Griffin 9/14/19 8:50 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/14/19 10:45 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Griffin 9/15/19 8:29 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/15/19 8:37 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Siavash ' 9/15/19 8:43 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/14/19 11:00 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/14/19 11:31 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/14/19 4:06 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/15/19 12:44 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Laurel Carrington 9/14/19 11:46 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/14/19 11:54 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Milo 9/14/19 12:32 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Not two, not one 9/15/19 5:44 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/19/19 3:29 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations neko 9/18/19 8:01 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Griffin 9/18/19 2:15 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Ryan 9/18/19 1:39 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/18/19 1:50 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Laurel Carrington 9/18/19 2:17 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/18/19 3:19 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Laurel Carrington 9/18/19 5:50 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/18/19 7:57 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Not two, not one 9/18/19 10:19 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/19/19 7:06 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Laurel Carrington 9/19/19 3:17 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/19/19 3:20 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Laurel Carrington 9/19/19 3:21 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Siavash ' 9/19/19 3:32 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/20/19 6:24 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Laurel Carrington 9/20/19 10:05 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Not two, not one 9/20/19 2:40 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Laurel Carrington 9/20/19 5:28 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations spatial 9/20/19 5:49 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/20/19 7:49 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Not two, not one 9/21/19 12:47 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/21/19 4:31 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Jens Theisen 9/21/19 4:57 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Not two, not one 9/19/19 3:44 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/19/19 5:31 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/20/19 6:26 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Laurel Carrington 9/20/19 11:11 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/20/19 7:58 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Milo 9/20/19 8:48 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/21/19 4:28 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/21/19 4:37 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/21/19 8:03 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Sriram Arya 9/21/19 11:11 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Milo 9/21/19 6:10 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/21/19 6:53 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Milo 9/21/19 11:37 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/22/19 2:14 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Jens Theisen 9/22/19 3:28 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/21/19 1:06 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Jens Theisen 9/21/19 5:08 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/21/19 5:37 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Jens Theisen 9/21/19 5:52 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Not two, not one 9/21/19 6:38 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Jens Theisen 9/21/19 7:13 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/21/19 9:08 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/21/19 1:50 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Not two, not one 9/21/19 2:04 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/21/19 7:05 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/21/19 9:04 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/21/19 7:29 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/22/19 2:10 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Laurel Carrington 9/21/19 9:03 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/21/19 9:16 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Laurel Carrington 9/21/19 9:30 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/21/19 12:07 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/21/19 7:40 PM
Thread Split Chris M 9/22/19 11:58 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Laurel Carrington 9/21/19 9:22 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Stirling Campbell 9/21/19 11:46 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/21/19 11:42 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/21/19 7:46 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/21/19 12:11 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations shargrol 9/21/19 3:49 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/21/19 8:17 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Not two, not one 9/21/19 2:07 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/21/19 7:12 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/22/19 2:27 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/21/19 6:27 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/22/19 3:22 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/22/19 8:04 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Edward 9/20/19 1:45 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Not two, not one 9/20/19 6:15 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Ryan 9/20/19 7:36 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/20/19 5:35 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Stirling Campbell 9/20/19 5:45 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/19/19 4:10 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/20/19 2:43 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Stirling Campbell 9/18/19 5:00 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Laurel Carrington 9/18/19 5:52 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Stirling Campbell 9/18/19 6:59 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Laurel Carrington 9/18/19 7:15 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/18/19 8:16 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Jim Smith 9/19/19 12:27 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Siavash ' 9/19/19 12:45 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Stirling Campbell 9/19/19 12:48 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/19/19 5:15 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/19/19 5:56 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/20/19 9:11 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/20/19 7:57 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/19/19 5:34 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Babs _ 9/18/19 2:29 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/18/19 3:20 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Milo 9/14/19 11:41 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/16/19 9:42 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/17/19 12:43 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Edward 9/15/19 10:15 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Tom C 9/16/19 3:46 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Griffin 9/16/19 5:00 AM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Jim Smith 9/16/19 2:46 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Chris M 9/16/19 3:20 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/16/19 8:25 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations terry 9/16/19 8:27 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations George S 9/17/19 9:31 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Not two, not one 9/17/19 4:43 PM
RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 9/18/19 3:25 AM
JP, modified 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 9:02 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 9:02 AM

Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 175 Join Date: 3/31/17 Recent Posts
The Dharma Treasure Board of Directors sent out the following email yesterday:
Dear Dharma Treasure Sangha,

It was recently brought to the attention of Dharma Treasure Board members that John Yates (Upasaka Culadasa) has engaged in ongoing conduct unbecoming of a Spiritual Director and Dharma teacher. He has not followed the upasaka (layperson) precepts of sexual harmlessness, right speech, and taking what is not freely given.

We thoroughly reviewed a substantial body of evidence, contemplated its significance, and sought confidential counsel from senior Western Dharma teachers, who urged transparency. We also sought legal advice and spoke with various non-profit consultants to draw on their expertise and objectivity in handling this matter. As a result of our process, the Board has voted to remove Mr. Yates from all positions with Dharma Treasure.

In a series of Board meetings as well as written correspondences with Mr. Yates, he admitted to being involved in a pattern of sexual misconduct in the form of adultery. There is no evidence that this adultery involved improper interactions with students or any form of unwanted sexual advances. Rather, adultery with multiple women, some of whom are sex workers, took place over the past four years. The outcome was extended relationships with a group of about ten women. Relationships with some continue to the present day.

He has provided significant financial support to some of these women, a portion of which was given without the prior knowledge or consent of his wife. Mr. Yates also said he engaged in false speech by responding to his wife’s questions with admissions, partial truths, and lies during these years.

After we brought this misconduct to the attention of Mr. Yates, he agreed to write a letter to the Sangha disclosing his behavior, which would give students informed consent to decide for themselves whether to continue studying with him. However, after weeks of negotiations, we were unable to come to an agreement about the content and degree of transparency of his letter.

At the end of this entire process, we are sadly forced to conclude that Mr. Yates should not be teaching Dharma at this time. Likewise, we are clear that keeping the upasaka (layperson) vows is an absolutely essential foundation for serving as the Spiritual Director of Dharma Treasure. With heavy hearts, the Board has voted to remove him from this role, from the Board, and from all other positions associated with Dharma Treasure.

We also acknowledge the benefit of Mr. Yates’ scholarship, meditation instructions, and the personal guidance he has provided for so many earnest seekers, including ourselves. People from all over the world have been deeply impacted by the Dharma he has presented, and we do not wish to minimize the good he has done. We are forever grateful for the study and practice we have all undertaken together with Mr. Yates.

We know people may feel disbelief and dismay upon learning about this pattern of behavior. However, it is our strong wish that we all use this time as an opportunity to practice patient inquiry, compassion, and discernment. Our goal in sharing this information with the Sangha is to provide each of you with enough information to make your own informed decision about whether or how to work with Mr. Yates as a teacher. We hope this transparency about Mr. Yates’ behavior can help us all move toward a place where we honor teachers for their gifts while acknowledging they are complex human beings who make mistakes.

You can imagine this has been a long, methodical, and distressing process. Moving forward, we feel it is in the best interest of the organization to form a new Board that brings fresh perspectives and energy. The current Board will resign after vetting and electing new qualified Board members to carry on the mission of Dharma Treasure.

Finally, we hope this disclosure about Mr. Yates’ conduct does not shake your confidence in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. The transformative strength of refuge in the triple treasure can sustain us through this challenging time. Many other communities have walked this difficult path and emerged wiser and stronger. The ancient and modern history of Buddhism is filled with examples of the Dharma’s liberating individual and social power and compassion. Let us never forget that.

In service,

The Dharma Treasure Board of Directors
Blake Barton
Jeremy Graves
Matthew Immergut
Eve Smith
Nancy Yates

There are also discussion threads on this on the TMI subreddit and streamentry subreddit.  Culadasa left a personal response on the TMI thread:
Please do not take this letter as fact. It includes false information, and distortions and misrepresentations of fact. I, in fact, resigned from the Dharma Treasure Board due to irreconcilable differences including their refusal to engage in mediation. Rather than accept my resignation as tendered, they chose to vote me off the Board and remove me as Spiritual Director of Dharma Treasure. A fuller and more complete explanation will be forthcoming. In the mean time, I strongly recommend everyone hold off on jumping to conclusions or engaging in analysis or commentary. We are taking our time (myself and my advisors) so as to respond in the healthiest and most appropriate way with the best interest of all parties in mind. Thank you, Culadasa

I personally will be wishing the best for everyone affected, including Culadasa, his wife, and the Dharma Treasure community.
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 10:24 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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That's truly a shame, and sad for all concerned. It does illustrate the fact that there's no escape from being human as long as we're still alive.
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Babs _, modified 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 11:07 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 11:07 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Based on these statements it doesn't sound as big as it seems. He had sex with professionals, didn't abuse his students, apparently lied to his wife, broke his vows and that's why he was forced to leave?
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Dada Kind, modified 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 11:34 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 11:34 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 633 Join Date: 11/15/13 Recent Posts
People have different standards of big deal, but this seems like a big deal to me.

Also, "some of whom were sex workers". Not all. (According to this letter).

He has provided significant financial support to some of these women, a portion of which was given without the prior knowledge or consent of his wife.

https://www.patreon.com/culadasa

Well-meaning people give money to Culadasa to support his cancer recovery, his new book, etc. Not to, frankly, financially support hookers. When I looked at that patron count yesterday it was 342.
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Babs _, modified 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 12:35 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 12:35 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Dada Kind:
People have different standards of big deal, but this seems like a big deal to me.

Also, "some of whom were sex workers". Not all. (According to this letter).

He has provided significant financial support to some of these women, a portion of which was given without the prior knowledge or consent of his wife.

https://www.patreon.com/culadasa

Well-meaning people give money to Culadasa to support his cancer recovery, his new book, etc. Not to, frankly, financially support hookers. When I looked at that patron count yesterday it was 342.

Sure. Based on the letter some of them were sex workers, some sex partners, to whom he gave money to. I actually think that this is a notable upgrade to all teachers who seduced and abused their students. When reading of Sogyal Rinpoche's case, for example, I thought that why he didn't just go to sex professionals, rather than force his students. He had the money, like Culadasa. The obvious difference to Culadasa is his long academic career which I believe made him wealthy.

He is a human being and these women, whether pros or partners are also human beings with all kinds of issues and problems. If and when he had the opportunity and means to help them with money, with whatever needs they might have had for it, why shouldn't he have helped?

It's not a black and white world we are living in. Often in scandals it looks like monastic and christian views of seeing sex and sexuality as something bad, affect people's mind in understand these things. As far as I understand Japanese and Tibetan cultures, for example, that meditation teacher has extra-marital relationships would be a non-issue. It's a completely different situation in christian culture because people have subconsciously bought into christian beliefs.

Maybe new information about this comes out which makes it clearer why he chose to leave or was kicked out but as it seems now, it looks like the board and the sangha made a big mistake.
neko, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 3:43 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 3:36 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 762 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
Kim Katami:
Based on these statements it doesn't sound as big as it seems. He had sex with professionals, didn't abuse his students, apparently lied to his wife, broke his vows and that's why he was forced to leave?

This is a good question, so I think it is worth unpacking it a bit.

Having been in the TMI-TT (TMI Teacher Training), and having quit it* a few weeks before rumors started to transpire that something bad was going on behind the scenes, this is my take, in case anyone is interested.

In the teacher training classes, and I hear on Patreon too, Culadasa was focussing a lot of his teaching on ethics and behaviour, mostly in the form of the five hindrances and ten fetters, to the point where I would actually say that he spent much more time talking about actions, emotions, philosophy, and psychology than about actual meditation practice, which is by the way one of the many reasons I have quit the TMI-TT*. Because of Culadasa's emphasis on ethics and behaviour, he has a self-selected audience of students and teachers-in-training who place a huge importance on those things, while simultaneously practioners who are interested in the deep end of contemplative practice get bored, disappointed, or turned away eventually.

Now put all of this together. His alleged behaviour explicitly contradicts his upasaka vows, his teachings, and his claims to attainment, which is what makes this a big deal in context. If he hadn't taken upasaka vows, hadn't been letting it on that he was a ten-fetter arahant, hadn't been teaching that you cannot get into jhana unless you banish the hindrances first; If he had been talking more about practice and less about his psychology-based models of enlightenment... if his teaching were different, his behaviour would be taken differently.

It's as if it turned out that you (Kim) are not actually capable of reading bhumis by looking at pictures of practioners vs. if it turned out that Shinzen Young can't. Shinzen has talked about occasionally being able to recognise something about the depth of people's practice by looking at their faces and body language (you know the youtube videos), but he does not place any emphasis on it, so no-one would be surprised or outraged if it turned out that Shinzen's skill at that is unreliable. But in your teaching, that aspect plays a huge role, so people would be holding you liable for that.

-----------


* My reasons for quitting are largely off-topic now and a story for another time, but for the record, I think that there are serious flaws in Culadasa's teaching, his standards for awakening (which range from highly diluted on one end to completely unrealistic on the opposite end), his standards for authorising people to teach (which are sometimes dangerously low, although he does have a few good students), in the depth of his own personal practice, and in the many subtle and not-so-subtle ways he discourages open discussion about practice and dismisses practices other than his own.
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Griffin, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 5:19 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 5:19 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 271 Join Date: 4/7/18 Recent Posts
My reasons for quitting are largely off-topic now and a story for another time, but for the record, I think that there are serious flaws in Culadasa's teaching, his standards for awakening (which range from highly diluted on one end to completely unrealistic on the opposite end), his standards for authorising people to teach (which are sometimes dangerously low, although he does have a few good students), in the depth of his own personal practice, and in the many subtle and not-so-subtle ways he discourages open discussion about practice and dismisses practices other than his own.

This is interesting. Maybe actually this is the opportunity to share the details? If you weren't planning on starting a new thread, of course.
neko, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 5:42 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 5:39 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Griffin:
This is interesting. Maybe actually this is the opportunity to share the details? If you weren't planning on starting a new thread, of course.

I understand the interest, but I will not say more about that, as:

1) I don't want to kick a man when he's down.

2) I don't want the current drama on ethics and behaviour to get mixed up with the much more important discussion of the deep end of contemplative practice.

3) I am not sure it would be a skilful use of my time to start a discussion that would potentially see me facing an organisation of hundreds of people.

4) My negative opinions should goad me to direct my energy into creating something good rather than on destroying something that I consider not so good. Not that it'll be easy, as I have the unhealthy inclination to be more critical than productive.

So definitely no more details on that now, and possibly not ever. My only goals in writing that were to distance myself publicly from the TT and Culadasa, as I feel having taken part in it does not reflect positively on me, and to clarify that the reasons are unrelated to whomever Culadasa has beeh having sex with, his relationship with his wife, and how he uses money.
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Ben V, modified 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 11:33 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 11:27 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Read that letter yesterday and still digesting it. Somewhat shaken. Even though the Pragmatic Dharma movement has made it a point that the belief that awakening does not necessarily mean good sila (and are different lines of development), I am still somewhat puzzled here. If awakening allows one to see through the empty (3cs) nature of phenomena, then it should be easier (perhaps even automatic) not to buy into lust or other mind phenomena. To have arisen lust, grasp it, then make it into a plan of execution to nourish it, then develop long-term unfaithful relations with many partners, sounds like a lot of identification and solidifying of lust to me. There has to be strong 'selfing' in this.

It's one thing to say morality does not become perfect with awakening, but to do continuous misbehaviors involving obvious strong and continuous grasping, it's hard for me to reconcile that with awakening (or full awakening). To misbehave, it seems to me that there must be first a state of greed, aggression or delusion that arises, and then grasping of it, for misbehavior to occur. Where is the "liberation" (Mokha/Moksha) in this??

The idea of serious misbehaviors and high awakening being compatible is becoming more and more suspicious to me. 

Well, this rant of mine is from a still not fully awakened dude (me). I'm open for responses.

I guess in the end we should stay focused on one's own practice and how it helps us, and use teachers for what good they can give us, but not cling to any ideas of how attained they are. "Pragmatic studentship" should be about taking the good aples from a tree and not bother (and be bothered) by the bad apples in the same tree. TMI is still on my llist of books I look forward to read...
Edward, modified 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 12:18 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 11:41 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 129 Join Date: 6/10/19 Recent Posts
Completely agree Ben. I don't think we're doing anyone any favours by glibly shrugging our shoulders when men setting themselves up as spiritual exemplars show an inability to understand very basic moral principles. 
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 12:22 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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JMHO --
I don't think we're doing anyone any favours by simply shrugging our shoulders when men setting themselves up as spiritual exemplars show an inability to understand very basic moral principles. 

If there's nothing else you get out of this latest example of a dharma teacher taking advantage of their position to do some form of harm to other humans, this is it: stop putting these people on a pedestal. They have demonstrated that they are as human as everyone else, and just as prone to lapses in judgment, to err, to cause harm to others.
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Richard Zen, modified 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 12:21 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 12:05 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Chris Marti:
JMHO --
I don't think we're doing anyone any favours by simply shrugging our shoulders when men setting themselves up as spiritual exemplars show an inability to understand very basic moral principles. 

If there's nothing else you get out of this latest example of a dharma teacher taking advantage of their position to do some form of harm to other humans, this is it: stop putting these people on a pedestal. They have demonstrated that they are as human as everyone else, and just as prone to lapses in judgment, to err, to cause harm to others.
I just saw this now! LOL! Oh well. It's actually a relief. Looking down from above or looking up from below creates its own distortions in the mind. I definitely looked up to him, but that's just my own projection. To want what we don't have is very powerful. If there's not enough disenchantment in the practice then the desire has a way through.

I think a lot of people should be happy they have a good wife and have sex. If one wants to renounce sex then a disgust practice has to be in place or it's not likely to work. Sex is one of the most powerful desires, which is why we are all born. emoticon

EDIT: Even more important: Keep practicing as if you are never Enlightened. There's always room for improvement. The feeling of "done-ness" must be an illusion.
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Ben V, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 10:59 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 10:59 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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One thing in all this that doesn't seem to be addrssed, at least directly, is the pain that the wife must be in right now, if the allegations are true.

This is not just about the topic of Dharma teachers misbehaving, or about students being disappointed that their teachers displayed misbehaviors.

It is not first and foremost about a discussion of how awakening and ethics are or are not related.

Nor is it about ethical reflections around polyamory (I don't see any polyamory in the allegations anyway).

I imagine, if the allegations are true, that the most pain inflicted in this situation is to the wife, who must be devastated. 

If the allegations are true, she needs our compassion and empathy, at least in thoughts. May she and all others involved get whatever healing they need.
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Jordi, modified 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 1:24 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 12:54 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Not too good, not too bad, just a human being.

This last time, for diferent sutations in my life I trying to understand what is desire and why is an strong impulse that drives to act in certain ways. 

When I was traveling 2 years ago in south-asia I was in Thailand and someone recomend me a temple in Udon Thani. People said that the monk master was full awakened and has powers and everything, the full pack. So I went there with the idea to learn Jhanas, so we have like two meetings a week, every time I ask about how to enter into the Jhanas He start speaking about Sila and the four immeasurables, how important is compassion and love, give oneself to others etc. I got pissed off becouse he always talk about that and he didnt tell me to much about jhana. He always repeat the same thing in all the talks we have: "Sila is my shield".

This last time this "Sila is my shield" start to make more sense to me, and I see how important is. A shield to protect ourself but also to protect others. At the end I think is about being honest and clear with onself and do our best with our defects of character without trying to hurt other people.

Ironically the most "good persons" I know; people who has genuinely a good heart, that gives with expect nothing in return, that have always time for you, that  radiates compasion and love; they never done any kind of meditation practice and dont know nothing about that topic. This made me think a lot about that. I meditated quite a lot and I still see myself selfish and self-centred ( here Im talkin about me hehe) driven by plesure and my own personal benefits.

So yeah...why he did all this stuff? Who knows, maybe subconsciously he wanted to sabotage himself and kill the character he created or other people push him to be. Or maybe he just want to have sex and enjoy life emoticon. Being the "archetype of Buddha" is not easy. Culadassa goes back to stage 1 haha! No-no just joking...

Anyways what he has given with his book, talks, inspiration and everything is in some way is immeasurable too emoticon
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 1:02 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 1:02 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I’m sad to hear this, for all parties involved. I don’t personally see any ethical problem in having many partners per se as I’m polyamorous myself, but lying about it and betraying confidences is not okay and probably doesn’t make anyone happy (including Culadasa himself). Paying for sex, as I see it, often (albeit perhaps not always) involves exploiting of somebody's bad situation. For me that would be the worst part, but of course I don’t know the circumstances here. Transparency was a wise choice. As for the rest, that’s not for me to judge. I can understand, though, why people might be unwilling to financially support someone who alledgedly spends his money according to what was described here. I’m not going to blame anyone for seeking lust, regardless of how much, but I have principles for how to do that in order not to harm others. At the same time, there are a lot of judgements around people whose hearts do not adhere to the monoamorous norm. Therefore I can understand the need to keep relationships secret, if that is what this is about (love). That doesn’t make it okay to go behind people’s backs, but it makes it human.
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Not two, not one, modified 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 10:58 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/20/19 10:58 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 1038 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
This looks like an enormous mess. The letter seems very strange to me.

There is no mention of an independent investigation, or of controls put in place to handle conflicts of interests within the board. There are implied judgements and criticisms about polyamory or prostitution, which has nothing to do with the dharma or five precepts as far as I can see (provided all parties are consenting adults under their own care). The letter notes that other parties knew of at least some of the financial support, and received at least some admissions, and this really raises more questions than it answers. There appears prima facie to be a breach of privacy principles in the content of the letter.

Given all this, it is very difficult to see this letter as right speech.

Aside from Chris' excellent point about not putting human teachers on a pedestal, I would just observe that sangha's and boards are not necessarily any better. The anarchic decentralisation of the DhO has its points ... 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 2:58 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 2:58 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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As for conflicts of interest, I just noticed that one of the directors who wrote the letter shares the same family name as Culadasa. Is that a coincidence, or is it his wife?
YCR, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 3:00 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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It's his wife.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 3:02 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 3:02 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Oh. Ehm... That’s problematic.
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Babs _, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 6:29 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 6:29 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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YCR:
It's his wife.
What if Culadasa sought sexual relationships because they didn't have sex with his wife? That story we've all heard before.

neko:

...Culadasa was focussing a lot of his teaching on ethics and behaviour, mostly in the form of the five
hindrances and ten fetters, to the point where I would actually say that he spent much more time talking about actions, emotions, philosophy, and psychology than about actual meditation practice...

Now put all of this together. His alleged behaviour explicitly contradicts his upasaka vows, his teachings, and his claims to attainment, which is what makes this a big deal in context. If he hadn't taken upasaka vows, hadn't been letting it on that he was a ten-fetter arahant, hadn't been teaching that you cannot get into jhana unless you banish the hindrances first; If he had been talking more about practice and less about his psychology-based models of enlightenment... if his teaching were different, his behaviour would be taken differently.

A lot of really experienced meditators end up emphasizing ethics. How long did you study with him? Did you just see a small slice of his teaching career where he put too much emphasis on ethics, while not discussing meditation practice as much as other times?

Did he make the claim of being fully liberated? Is that what you're saying?

Despite of vows and many talks on ethics, if one is not fully liberated, one's going to have sexual drive and desire.
neko:
...As far as I understand, Culadasa was in a monogamous marriage, and the allegation is that he was lying to his
wife and spending shared finances on sex workers without his wife's consent.
Sexual drive is at the center of all of this. What kind of practices did he teach or practice to purify it? 
neko, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 7:18 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 6:36 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 762 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
Kim Katami:

How long did you study with him?

The expression "study with him" does not seem to capture the dynamics, as I do not feel that I have learnt much from him besides what was already in TMI... a good part of which I have gradually come to realise I disagree with. Anyway:

* I have spent about two weeks on retreat with him, but as co-adventurers and not in a student-teacher relationship.

* About a year and a half of TMI teacher training, meeting twice monthly for two hours each time. Makes about 80 hours, I guess.

I would prefer not to go into more detail because of the reasons I listed above, sorry.
neko, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 3:51 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 3:49 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 762 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
curious:

There are implied judgements and criticisms about polyamory or prostitution


I couldn't disagree more. As far as I understand, Culadasa was in a monogamous marriage, and the allegation is that he was lying to his wife and spending shared finances on sex workers without his wife's consent. If true, those are behaviours that are considered unacceptable in the polyamorous community and the sex workers communities too. Actually, I would say that those communities are even more sensitive to these topics, because of the strong culture of awareness of the risks of STDs and the emphasis on obtaining the consent of all the parties involved.
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Not two, not one, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 4:24 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 4:24 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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neko:
curious:

There are implied judgements and criticisms about polyamory or prostitution


I couldn't disagree more. As far as I understand, Culadasa was in a monogamous marriage, and the allegation is that he was lying to his wife and spending shared finances on sex workers without his wife's consent. If true, those are behaviours that are considered unacceptable in the polyamorous community and the sex workers communities too. Actually, I would say that those communities are even more sensitive to these topics, because of the strong culture of awareness of the risks of STDs and the emphasis on obtaining the consent of all the parties involved.

Sure, he might be a scumbag. Or might not. Hard to tell from the letter. But the rather pious dharmic condemnation in the letter doesn't sit well with me. There are worse things in the Suttas. Like a monk abandoning a wife and child, and sitting in meditation ignoring the wife putting the child in front of him while she wails in despair and demands support for their livelihood. The response from the sanga - "What a true brahman he is to avoid distraction from his meditation, and how badly the wife is behaving."  To me that is grossly immoral - but it is nonetheless consistent with the dharma.

So condemn him by all means, if the evidence is there. But let's not cloak it in the dharma. And let's have our eyes open to the rather strange processes recorded in this letter. Anyway, just my view, I don't expect anyone to agree. And of course I am at a distance, whereas I acknowledge you have more direct experience.

With deep respect to you Neko (and I do mean that)

Malcolm
neko, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 5:10 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 5:08 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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curious:
But the rather pious dharmic condemnation in the letter doesn't sit well with me.

Fair enough. But do notice that the letter was written by Culadasa's students, and that kind of piety was inculcated into them, or at least systematically reinforced, by Culadasa himself.


curious:
There are worse things in the Suttas.

Oh, absolutely. There's loads of bollocks in the suttas. That's not a very strong defence, though, is it?



curious:
But let's not cloak it in the dharma.

I am not a Buddhist, nor am I a particularly big fan of the word dharma, so I don't have much a dog in that fight.

There are more basic and universal laws than the dharma, one is if you talk the talk the talk, you've gotta walk the walk. This is a principle of dignity, virtue, and personal responsibility that applies to all domains of life and human interaction. Since Culadasa makes it all about 5 hindrances, 10 upasaka vows, and 10 fetters, he has to stand up to his own standards.

(Besides, again, I believe that there are more serious flaws in Culadasa, TMI, and his TT.)



curious:
With deep respect to you Neko (and I do mean that)

Appreciated and reciprocated. emoticon
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 5:56 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 5:56 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
I have no idea to what degree all the allegations against Culadasa are true, but I do know some of the people on the board and have much respect for them. It would be extremely surprising to me if they were making this up, and, in fact, not surprising if in some ways what they put out wasn't at least slightly euphemistic.

Nancy, his wife, was a particularly strong example of kindness, nurturing, and support to Culadasa and everyone else she came in contact with during the month I stayed at Dharma Treasure last September. Her capacity to defend and rationalize his relatively toxic behavior to me then was also a strong demonstration of her love and commitment to him and her obvious wish for people to get along and feel ok.

Regarding STDs, I spent a year online at the National AIDS Hotline, so can't help but have those memories of some calls I took return when I read about all of this.

I have been wishing everyone involved well in this obvious challenging situation. As you all likely know, I have written extensively about the fact that mammals are mammals, but that is not the same as excusing behavior that harms, and I think it is clear that, however you slice it, harm has been done. That said, perhaps people will learn from this, grow into their own practices, and be lights unto themselves.

I am inspired to quote from this reddit thread, with typos corrected, which quoted one of my most inspiring teachers, Bill Hamilton, from his book Saints & Psychopaths, and echoing Neko's ethic valuing those who try to walk their talk:

PSYCHOPATHS SAY MEAN DO disparity:

Breaks own rules
Many bad debts
Writes bad checks
Break promises
No true regard for truth
Tell close associates to lie
Push philosophy aggressively
Attractive and drawing
Comes on with unsolicited advice
Good reputation fades in time
Projects & organization degenerate
In the long run things turn out badly
People are damaged by long term association
Are unconcerned for effect of actions on self and others
Apologize as last resort
Ignore their own mistakes and apologizes only if cornered
If trapped will do or say anything to escape
Typically have variable exotic health problems
Typically have many accidents and injuries
Felt unloved when a child
Can sit still only when center of attention
Enslave people around them
Substance abuse common
Compulsion to become the center of attention
Adopt many aliases

Do your own math, reach your own conclusions, make your own decisions, choose as wisely as you can, realizing that every choice has some downside to it, though some clearly may be better than others. Think about what sort of world you want to live in and what you wish to promote. Finding some way to balance forgiveness and paths to redemtion with real, just consequences for harm is clearly an ongoing debate that we must all engage with carefully.

Things I liked about Bill:

Kept his dharma extremely clean and uncorrupted from a financial point of view, asking nothing for his teachings.
Didn't seek to tell people his way was the best, just a good one.
Referenced and respected lots of other works and teachers that were not his own.
He didn't seek widespread fame or admiration, and so died relatively unknown, which, while clearly a loss for people who didn't know him, clearly demonstrated a certain humility that I had great respect for despite my own obvious lack of ability to emulate it.
He was reluctant to talk about his own practice, which I sometimes found irritating, but at least he didn't say he was one thing and blatantly turn out to be another.
Would talk about the dark side of the path and the downsides of meditation and the Dark Night.
Would talk a lot and honestly about shadow sides of meditation practice, traditions, and communities.
Admitted his own mistakes and used them as a way to teach others so they could hopefully avoid similar problems.
Had powerful depths of meditation and could speak from that place with a great deal of nuance, richness, and sophistication.
In short, he seemed to all appearances to walk his talk, to be what he said he was, to meet his own high ideals.


Best wishes to all impacted by this.
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Babs _, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 5:01 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 5:01 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 709 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:
...
Nancy, his wife, was a particularly strong example of kindness, nurturing, and support to Culadasa and everyone else she came in contact with during the month I stayed at Dharma Treasure last September. Her capacity to defend and rationalize his relatively toxic behavior to me then was also a strong demonstration of her love and commitment to him and her obvious wish for people to get along and feel ok.
...

I am inspired to quote from this reddit thread, with typos corrected, which quoted one of my most inspiring teachers, Bill Hamilton, from his book Saints & Psychopaths, and echoing Neko's ethic valuing those who try to walk their talk:

PSYCHOPATHS SAY MEAN DO disparity:

Breaks own rules
Many bad debts
Writes bad checks
Break promises
No true regard for truth
Tell close associates to lie
Push philosophy aggressively
Attractive and drawing
Comes on with unsolicited advice
Good reputation fades in time
Projects & organization degenerate
In the long run things turn out badly
People are damaged by long term association
Are unconcerned for effect of actions on self and others
Apologize as last resort
Ignore their own mistakes and apologizes only if cornered
If trapped will do or say anything to escape
Typically have variable exotic health problems
Typically have many accidents and injuries
Felt unloved when a child
Can sit still only when center of attention
Enslave people around them
Substance abuse common
Compulsion to become the center of attention
Adopt many aliases

Do your own math, reach your own conclusions, make your own decisions, choose as wisely as you can, realizing that every choice has some downside to it, though some clearly may be better than others. Think about what sort of world you want to live in and what you wish to promote. Finding some way to balance forgiveness and paths to redemtion with real, just consequences for harm is clearly an ongoing debate that we must all engage with carefully.

Hello Daniel.

Are you saying Nancy Yates discussed Culadasa's sexual conduct with you last year?

Are you implying that Culadasa is psychopathic? That you bring out a list like that in this thread does make it seem so.
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JohnM, modified 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 11:32 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 11:32 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 87 Join Date: 1/7/18 Recent Posts
Thank you Daniel for these pithy reminders. Very helpful to me at this time.
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Griffin, modified 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 6:50 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 6:50 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 271 Join Date: 4/7/18 Recent Posts
Dear Daniel,

You mentioned Culadasa's "toxic behavour". Based on your november online discussions, I got this impression: Culadasa percieved your playfull wish for exchange of different opinions as some sort of aggression. It seems that he is over-sensitive to criticism and keeps his feelings bottled up until he "explodes" at some point.

However, this didn't leave the impression to be so severe as a personality disorder.

During the time you were on retreats together, did you notice any other "red flags" about his behaviour, that you feel comfortable sharing? By contrast, first time you met Culadasa, your experience was positive ("Again, a remarkable work by a remarkable guy. I was lucky enough to meet him at the recent Dharma Teacher's convention in New York this June, and the maturity, depths and stability of his practice was clear.").
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 7:39 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 7:32 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I’m thinking that maybe it was more of a callout to be mindful of any tendencies in that direction in all our communities rather than labelling someone with a diagnosis, but I don’t know. I’m thinking that most people have at least some minor tendencies and that some circumstances might reinforce them. Putting somebody on a piedestal as a collective and expecting them to live up to that standard might contribute. I’m not talking about expectations of being honest to one’s family now; those are very reasonable expectations. I’m thinking more in line with never even thinking about the kind of stuff that he would have needed to communicate in the first place. But I know too little to say much about this particular case. I was thinking more about general tendencies to put people on piedestals and the consequences of that - both in terms of what it creates and in terms of what warning signs it makes us miss.
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 3:30 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 3:30 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Griffin:
Dear Daniel,

...

During the time you were on retreats together, did you notice any other "red flags" about his behaviour, that you feel comfortable sharing? By contrast, first time you met Culadasa, your experience was positive ("Again, a remarkable work by a remarkable guy. I was lucky enough to meet him at the recent Dharma Teacher's convention in New York this June, and the maturity, depths and stability of his practice was clear.").

Yeah, there's that. There is clearly a learning curve in this life regarding these issues, as nearly everyone here is noticing, and that applies to me as well, clearly. Might check out this thread, in which I belatedly realized that, as an INFP, I am probably at some significant starting deficit in sorting out such people, given my natural initial tendency to give people some benefit of the doubt. There have been other examples of my blindness in this regard that have had substantial negative impacts on my life and work also, as some here will recall from the some previous dramatic sagas.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 4:00 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 4:00 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I’m an INFP too. Cool.
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Laurel Carrington, modified 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 9:02 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 9:02 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/7/14 Recent Posts
I’m an ENFJ on the Myers Briggs scale, and when I met Culadasa, I felt an overwhelming sense of love that at the same time was both personal and impersonal. I was with him for a week in a retreat-like setting where Daniel was also present, and did not interact with him personally until he was about to leave. He took my hand and we exchanged a few words, and his eyes and his smile were utterly kind and accepting. 

So I have to ask: who is the “real” Culadasa/John Yates? I’ve made clear on this thread that I see his behavior as destructive, but is this all there is to the man? Daniel just used the term “such people,” and I gather that he has Culadasa chalked up as a fraud at the very least, if not a psychopath. I’m not willing to go there. 
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spatial, modified 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 9:38 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 9:38 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 614 Join Date: 5/20/18 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:
Yeah, there's that. There is clearly a learning curve in this life regarding these issues, as nearly everyone here is noticing, and that applies to me as well, clearly. Might check out [url=]this thread, in which I belatedly realized that, as an INFP, I am probably at some significant starting deficit in sorting out such people, given my natural initial tendency to give people some benefit of the doubt. There have been other examples of my blindness in this regard that have had substantial negative impacts on my life and work also, as some here will recall from the some previous dramatic sagas.
I think you accidentally linked to the current thread...

I'm also surprised to see you label yourself as an INFP, since your public-facing persona is so clearly a textbook ENTP.
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 10:10 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 10:10 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 5117 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I'm also surprised to see you label yourself as an INFP, since your public-facing persona is so clearly a textbook ENTP.

Personal observation: Daniel's writing voice is very different from his in-person persona  emoticon
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Not two, not one, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 5:17 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 5:07 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 1038 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
neko:

There are more basic and universal laws than the dharma, one is if you talk the talk the talk, you've gotta walk the walk. This is a principle of dignity, virtue, and personal responsibility that applies to all domains of life and human interaction. Since Culadasa makes it all about 5 hindrances, 10 upasaka vows, and 10 fetters, he has to stand up to his own standards.


Neko, you are right. If that is how he is presenting himself, that is how he should live.

An interesting contrast would be Drukpa Kunley's Flaming Thunderbolt of Wisdom - he talked the talk and walked the walk. Of course it was a rather different regularly intoxicated and extremely polyamorous talk, but he was at least consistent ...  I am surprised he doesn't get more discussion in western buddhism.  emoticon

Poem about happiness

I am happy that I am a free Yogi.
So I grow more and more into my inner happiness.
I can have sex with many women,
because I help them to go the path of enlightenment.
Outwardly I'm a fool
and inwardly I live with a clear spiritual system.
Outwardly, I enjoy wine, women and song.
And inwardly I work for the benefit of all beings.
Outwardly, I live for my pleasure
and inwardly I do everything in the right moment.
Outwardly I am a ragged beggar
and inwardly a blissful Buddha.

Drukpa Kunley
neko, modified 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 4:24 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 4:24 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 762 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
curious:

An interesting contrast would be Drukpa Kunley's Flaming Thunderbolt of Wisdom - he talked the talk and walked the walk. Of course it was a rather different regularly intoxicated and extremely polyamorous talk, but he was at least consistent ...  I am surprised he doesn't get more discussion in western buddhism.  emoticon

Poem about happiness

I am happy that I am a free Yogi.
So I grow more and more into my inner happiness.
I can have sex with many women,
because I help them to go the path of enlightenment.
Outwardly I'm a fool
and inwardly I live with a clear spiritual system.
Outwardly, I enjoy wine, women and song.
And inwardly I work for the benefit of all beings.
Outwardly, I live for my pleasure
and inwardly I do everything in the right moment.
Outwardly I am a ragged beggar
and inwardly a blissful Buddha.

Drukpa Kunley

Oh, absolutely: If someone publicly presented himself thusly, it'd be totes kosher AFAIC. Let consenting adults do consenting adult stuff.
Jinxed P, modified 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 10:07 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 10:07 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 347 Join Date: 8/29/11 Recent Posts
neko:
curious:

An interesting contrast would be Drukpa Kunley's Flaming Thunderbolt of Wisdom - he talked the talk and walked the walk. Of course it was a rather different regularly intoxicated and extremely polyamorous talk, but he was at least consistent ...  I am surprised he doesn't get more discussion in western buddhism.  emoticon

Poem about happiness

I am happy that I am a free Yogi.
So I grow more and more into my inner happiness.
I can have sex with many women,
because I help them to go the path of enlightenment.
Outwardly I'm a fool
and inwardly I live with a clear spiritual system.
Outwardly, I enjoy wine, women and song.
And inwardly I work for the benefit of all beings.
Outwardly, I live for my pleasure
and inwardly I do everything in the right moment.
Outwardly I am a ragged beggar
and inwardly a blissful Buddha.

Drukpa Kunley

Oh, absolutely: If someone publicly presented himself thusly, it'd be totes kosher AFAIC. Let consenting adults do consenting adult stuff.

It's an interesting phenomenon where the people who we thought of as pristine, go down hard for things like adultery (think Tiger Woods, Hugh Grant). But JFK, rock stars,  get away with it without much of a second thought. It's almost part of their charm. Same with spiritual teachers.

Osho demanded blowjobs at forty-five minute intervals from his acolytes, but he owned it and boasted to have had more sex than any man in history.

We care more about the supposed inconsistency than we due about the action itself. 
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 7:24 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 7:12 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 5117 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
There is no mention of an independent investigation, or of controls put in place to handle conflicts of interests within the board. There are implied judgements and criticisms about polyamory or prostitution, which has nothing to do with the dharma or five precepts as far as I can see (provided all parties are consenting adults under their own care). The letter notes that other parties knew of at least some of the financial support, and received at least some admissions, and this really raises more questions than it answers. There appears prima facie to be a breach of privacy principles in the content of the letter.

Jumping in to agree with curious, and as someone who often deals with small organizations under duress for various reasons, this is not uncommon. It's true, however, that having innate conflicts of interest makes the duress far worse, and introduces more and deeper emotional conflict and potential liability. The letter does contain actionable information. Legally actionable, that is. I hope they all have professional liability and directors and officers insurance.
Paul, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 7:30 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 7:30 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 72 Join Date: 1/24/19 Recent Posts
Wow, disturbing!

I noticed no one has addressed the matter of Yates’ apparent response on Reddit saying it’s mostly false and he’ll respond in time. Presumably he intends to deny the allegations or some part of them. This means either (a) he’s doubling down and trying to recoup some dignity by lying, or (b) there’s something fishy about the whole thing and he wants to clear his name.

The message asked that people don’t jump to conclusions, yet the rest of the thread here does precisely that. I’m in no way defending anyone, and like everyone else, this reads to me as pretty damning information. Still, is it not wise to wait and see what Yates has to bring to the table? Is it not possible that this is all a dispute between a warring couple who are at each other’s throats, and the board and community have been dragged into it? 

It strikes me as interesting that, at his advanced age, and battling cancer, it appears he’s decided to go for one last lap of youthful fun before it’s over. If he was someone prone to sexual misconduct, does it not say something interesting that no such allegations have emerged from his decades of work/service as a spiritual mentor who must’ve had countless opportunities for indiscretions while he was younger, healthier, and more capable? It looks odd to me, little that I know anyway. I’d be interested to know more before settling on a view on the matter.

Ok. Sad and unhappy news. All the best for everyone involved.
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Ryan, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 8:47 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 8:47 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 76 Join Date: 2/21/19 Recent Posts
As I’ve said elsewhere, it would be wise to withhold judgments and speculation until we hear from Culadasa on the matter, so long as his in depth response comes reasonably soon. I don’t know any of the people involved, so I can only speak to this as an outside observer, and while this isn’t a courtroom, it is nonetheless unfair to judge someone before they’ve at least had a chance to fully address allegations against them. Given that it sounds like there are privacy/confidentiality agreements in place at Dharma Treasure (DT), a prudent person would consult with an Arizona attorney prior to making a big public statement on the issue, so it may take a little bit of time. Moreover, the letter mentions financial support of these women. If there turns out to have been improper comingling of funds, criminal liability is not impossible. At the federal level, I’m thinking tax charges, assuming DT is a 501(C)(3), and maybe wire fraud + conspiracy to commit (of course, everything is wire fraud to DOJ, but that’s a whole ‘nother rant). I don’t know much about Arizona criminal law, but wouldn’t be surprised if there were similar potential criminal liability there. All that is of course the type of speculation we shouldn’t put any stock into until/unless more facts come out, but maybe will serve as a few reasons why it’s best to wait a while before drawing any final conclusions.

But from broader perspective, this has obviously shocked a lot of people and maybe that’s not entirely a bad thing. Dharma teachers preaching psychological perfection models are doing a disservice to the extent they are setting students up for disillusionment and abandonment of spiritual practice when what they learn doesn't deliver as promised. For my part, I’m once more grateful for Daniel’s MCTB which so clearly emphasizes how morality is a totally separate training from insight/wisdom. I think we have enough anecdotal evidence to say with a high degree of confidence that while insight may help one to see and drop some of their unskillful behaviors, you shouldn’t bank on it, and you’ll still have to put the work into the first training regardless.
S, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 9:31 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 9:31 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 21 Join Date: 6/26/14 Recent Posts
Dharma teachers preaching psychological perfection models are doing a disservice to the extent they are setting students up for disillusionment and abandonment of spiritual practice when what they learn doesn't deliver as promised.

Here here.
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Babs _, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 10:10 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 10:10 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 709 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts

Dharma teachers preaching psychological perfection models are doing a disservice to the extent they are setting students up for disillusionment and abandonment of spiritual practice when what they learn doesn't deliver as promised.
This is mostly theravada forum and the goal of that is different than that of mahayana and vajrayana. Nevertheless, this statement is in direct contradiction with the idea of buddhahood as an attainment which by definition is marked by psychological perfection. Pick any teacher or text from mahayana and they all are teaching this. That it wouldn't be possible is an idea entertained by secular buddhists and such.

Mistaken analysis of one's or other's attainment is a different question.
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 11:44 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 11:44 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 5117 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
... psychological perfection.

This is like using the term "objective reality." 

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Babs _, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 1:10 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 1:10 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 709 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
... psychological perfection.
This is like using the term "objective reality." 


Presumably everyone here knows what the term buddhahood alludes to.
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Ryan, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 1:30 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 1:30 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 76 Join Date: 2/21/19 Recent Posts
Kim Katami:
Chris Marti:
... psychological perfection.
This is like using the term "objective reality." 


Presumably everyone here knows what the term buddhahood alludes to.
Maybe yes, maybe no. I've never met one myself and, given the zen admonition to kill on sight, I sort of hope I never do.
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Stirling Campbell, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 1:40 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 1:39 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 622 Join Date: 3/13/16 Recent Posts
Kim Katami:

Presumably everyone here knows what the term buddhahood alludes to.

Everyone knows what it alludes to, though I expect most have different ideas of where buddhood begins. IMHO, expecting anyone who appears to inhabit a human body to behave impeccably (according to YOUR standards) is simply folly, regardless of your aspersions about their attainment. Some of the greatest teachers have seemingly had very human failings. What is more important, from my perpective, is what these apparent failings show us about our OWN characters, not about theirs. We are always surrounded by dharma. emoticon


-


General Question: Was the dharma from Culadasa good enough for you BEFORE these allegations?
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Babs _, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 2:05 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 2:05 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 709 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Stirling Campbell:
Kim Katami:

Presumably everyone here knows what the term buddhahood alludes to.

Everyone knows what it alludes to, though I expect most have (1) different ideas of where buddhood begins. IMHO, expecting anyone who appears to inhabit a human body to (2) behave impeccably (according to YOUR standards) is simply folly, regardless of your aspersions about their attainment. (3) Some of the greatest teachers have seemingly had very human failings. What is more important, from my perpective, is what these apparent failings show us about our OWN characters, not about theirs. We are always surrounded by dharma. emoticon

-

General Question: (4) Was the dharma from Culadasa good enough for you BEFORE these allegations?
Hi,

1. What do you mean with "different ideas of where buddhahood begins"? I'm not a scholar but out from the top of my head I can't think of any differing views about this within mahayana schools.
2. No, I don't think it is foolish to expect perfect behaviour from buddhas, incl. those who inhabit physical body. However, it's a completely different question who are buddhas and who are samsaric beings. Even a drop of poison spoils a tank of clear water.
3. Do you mean "greatest teachers" who were attained buddhas or just people who were great teachers? Who do you mean specifically?
4. I have his book which I've read a bit and watched a bunch of his lectures online. I always liked him and his style of teaching. I even applied for his teacher training, though was rejected.
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Stirling Campbell, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 3:59 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 3:59 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 622 Join Date: 3/13/16 Recent Posts
Kim Katami:

1. What do you mean with "different ideas of where buddhahood begins"? I'm not a scholar but out from the top of my head I can't think of any differing views about this within mahayana schools.
2. No, I don't think it is foolish to expect perfect behaviour from buddhas, incl. those who inhabit physical body. However, it's a completely different question who are buddhas and who are samsaric beings. Even a drop of poison spoils a tank of clear water.
3. Do you mean "greatest teachers" who were attained buddhas or just people who were great teachers? Who do you mean specifically?
4. I have his book which I've read a bit and watched a bunch of his lectures online. I always liked him and his style of teaching. I even applied for his teacher training, though was rejected.

Kim,

1. I mean in general, or amongst those on this board - not specifically in the Mahayana view. I personally agree with Dogen, and actually think this applies nicely to the entire question of Culadasa's behavior:

As all things are buddha-dharma, there is delusion and realization, practice, birth and death, and there are buddhas and sentient beings. 

As the myriad things are without an abiding self, there is no delusion, no realization, no buddha, no sentient being, no birth and death. - Dogen, Genjo-koan


2. Arhats are considered Buddhas in some traditions. An arhat would abide in no-self (IMHO) but still act as a human, flaws and all. I am not saying that this is Culadasa. As for a true "Mahayana" Buddha... I have not met one to the best of my knowledge, so cannot comment.

3. I think you could say it was either. Even the Buddha lost his temper, if we are to believe some accounts. I consider both Sogyal Rinpoche (who I have seen teach) and Chogyam Trungpa to be some of the greatest teachers (as an example) and yet many would agree that both had their flaws from a human behavioral perspective.  

4. I meant to ask this question to the entire board, so don't feel singled out. Thank you for your answer. emoticon
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Babs _, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 5:11 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 5:11 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 709 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Stirling Campbell:

Kim,

3. I think you could say it was either. Even the Buddha lost his temper, if we are to believe some accounts. I consider both Sogyal Rinpoche (who I have seen teach) and Chogyam Trungpa to be some of the greatest teachers (as an example) and yet many would agree that both had their flaws from a human behavioral perspective.  

Impossible to discuss Shakyamuni because none of us here has firsthand knowledge or experience of who he was, what he did and whether he had fits. Also, the notion of someone being a fully liberated buddha is a complex question because there is no way (other than OHBM, afaik) that people could agree on that. But considering Soggy and Trungpa... Well, I'm just going to have to strongly disagree on either of them being great teachers. Sure, they taught dharma, among all the nasty things, but I do not consider either of them "great" in any way.
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Stirling Campbell, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 5:38 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 5:37 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 622 Join Date: 3/13/16 Recent Posts
Kim Katami:

Impossible to discuss Shakyamuni because none of us here has firsthand knowledge or experience of who he was, what he did and whether he had fits. Also, the notion of someone being a fully liberated buddha is a complex question because there is no way (other than OHBM, afaik) that people could agree on that. But considering Soggy and Trungpa... Well, I'm just going to have to strongly disagree on either of them being great teachers. Sure, they taught dharma, among all the nasty things, but I do not consider either of them "great" in any way.

Exactly - this is what I am saying. There will be many ideas about it, but the qualities of THE Buddha (or any historical Buddha) can only be assumed or imputed, never known... 

You are naturally free to choose whatever teachers you prefer - but in my experience the dharma perfumes the fabric of every phenomena.
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svmonk, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 10:39 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 10:21 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 400 Join Date: 8/23/14 Recent Posts
Right.

However, I am suprised to note that no one commented on the qualitative difference between this case and the cases of Richard Baker at SFZC in the '70's and early '80s, Sogayl Rimpoche more recently, and the Sakyoung, head of Shambhala until he was removed last year for, among other things, allegedly raping some of his female students. Since I know two women involved in two of these cases, I can pretty much say that these were not "he said-she said" stories, but rather involved sustained and systematic abuses of an asymmetric power relationship over many years that the sanghas involved chose to explain away and ignore rather than deal with. One of those women was the Zen teacher that I took tokudo (monk) vows with, and she spent the first year I studied with her periodically talking about the harm that such abuse does, both to the individual and the group. She insisted I read Raven, the story of Jim Jones and the People's Temple, and told me that if she ever started behaving like that, it was my job to call her out on it.

From the description of the allegations in this thread, nobody is accusing Culadasa of that. This is not to say that his behavior is at all acceptable in a Dharma teacher, or that there might not be legal implications (if, for example, some of the money he paid to prostitutes was embezzled from temple funds). I personally find his behavior unacceptable in anyone, much less a Dharma teacher, and if a unbiased investigation and trial does result in proven law-breaking, then he should naturally suffer the consequences. And Daniel's report on his inhospitable behavor last September is indeed puzzling. Why did he invite Daniel if he was going to behave like such a jerk?

With respect to his teachings, I found TMI to be quite helpful in clarifying my own practice with respect to jhana. I have never been able to do the "stable luminous ball at the nostrals" visualization (what Culadasa describes as the "luminous" jhanas), and in TMI, Culadasa describes some other types of jhana that I have experienced. I've never actually met him, and just briefly viewed one of his Youtube videos (wasn't very impressed). But actually, I can say the same thing about Richard Baker. Several years ago, I read one of the best commentaries on the Heart Sutra I have ever read, written by him (he now has a center in Crestone, Colarado and Switzerland). Some folks further up thread commented on the "saints and psychopaths" aspect so I won't say more.

It is best that the board requested his resignation, and if he broke any laws, he should be prosecuted, but I hope people will keep this in perspective. The amount of psychological and spiritual harm to others that can come from systematically abusing a power relationship is several orders of magnitude worse than the kinds of behavior Culadasa is being accused of.
YCR, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 3:03 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 3:03 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 20 Join Date: 7/15/19 Recent Posts
What a shame he is not able to teach. I hope I will still be able to meet him one day.
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Shaun Steelgrave, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 8:17 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 8:17 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 121 Join Date: 7/7/19 Recent Posts
He did nothing wrong.
S, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 9:59 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 9:18 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 21 Join Date: 6/26/14 Recent Posts
I am a little surprised there seems to be many people on this thread who seem to think that what is legal and what is ethical are the same thing.

Curious that some people might think that harming your wife through an affair is not unethical, or does not violate a precept to do no harm through sexual heedlessness and deceit (two precepts).

I find it surprising and unsurprising at the same time that people are more worried about financial shenanigans, though I would agree financial shenanigans are a more serious issue than non-traditional sexual lifestyles. This does not just sound to me like some people are being prudes. Even if monogamy is not the right or preferred lifestyle by some people who conscientiously live differently, that doesn't just excuse arbitrary behavior and harmful actions in arbitrary marriages. Even in polyamorous contexts I think explicit and implicit boundaries grounded in the consent of multiple people beyond those involved in a particular sex act are pretty common (how many polyamorous people but the most idealistic would be comfortable with their primary partner sleeping also with the first partner's siblings or their boss or coworkers, or engaging in very risky behaviors)?

It is also curious that some people here think that violating Culadasa's privacy in this way is egregious and that a legally rigorous standard of proof should be required for any discussion. I might avoid plenty of people for bad juju and bad reputations (such as their wife and former colleagues dismissing them for ethical misconduct from a religious organization) without legally admissable evidence.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 2:23 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 2:23 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
S.:
I am a little surprised there seems to be many people on this thread who seem to think that what is legal and what is ethical are the same thing.

Curious that some people might think that harming your wife through an affair is not unethical, or does not violate a precept to do no harm through sexual heedlessness and deceit (two precepts).

I find it surprising and unsurprising at the same time that people are more worried about financial shenanigans, though I would agree financial shenanigans are a more serious issue than non-traditional sexual lifestyles. This does not just sound to me like some people are being prudes. Even if monogamy is not the right or preferred lifestyle by some people who conscientiously live differently, that doesn't just excuse arbitrary behavior and harmful actions in arbitrary marriages. Even in polyamorous contexts I think explicit and implicit boundaries grounded in the consent of multiple people beyond those involved in a particular sex act are pretty common (how many polyamorous people but the most idealistic would be comfortable with their primary partner sleeping also with the first partner's siblings or their boss or coworkers, or engaging in very risky behaviors)?

It is also curious that some people here think that violating Culadasa's privacy in this way is egregious and that a legally rigorous standard of proof should be required for any discussion. I might avoid plenty of people for bad juju and bad reputations (such as their wife and former colleagues dismissing them for ethical misconduct from a religious organization) without legally admissable evidence.


As far as I have seen, I’m one of the very few posters that explicitly said that polyamory per se is not a problem, and I did that only because some of the formulations both in the letter and in this thread seemed to say it is immoral regardless of circumstances to have more than one intimate (romantic and/or sexual) relationship. I did NOT say that betrayal of confidence was okay. On the contrary, I explicitly said that it’s not. And to add to the nuances, many polyamorous people do not have a primary partner. In my community, that term is often frowned upon as ethically problematic. I haven’t got the faintest idea as to whether or not Culadasa is polyamorous or as to what happened here. I neither defend him nor accuse him, have only said a few words about my own boundaries.
S, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 2:45 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 2:41 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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As far as I have seen, I’m one of the very few posters that explicitly said that polyamory per se is not a problem, and I did that only because some of the formulations both in the letter and in this thread seemed to say it is immoral regardless of circumstances to have more than one intimate (romantic and/or sexual) relationship. I did NOT say that betrayal of confidence was okay. On the contrary, I explicitly said that it’s not. And to add to the nuances, many polyamorous people do not have a primary partner. In my community, that term is often frowned upon as ethically problematic. I haven’t got the faintest idea as to whether or not Culadasa is polyamorous or as to what happened here. I neither defend him nor accuse him, have only said a few words about my own boundaries.

A few other posters have focused on (a) the consent of all parties he had sex with as the primary ethical question, or (b) made statements suggesting monogamy is bad or unimportant (saying for example it is an artifact of Christian morality, or that he did nothing wrong sleeping with multiple people). That was my starting point for talking about it. I did not mean to single out your statements about polyamory as an attempt to justify his behavior, or to single out your comments in general. In fact I wanted to suggest that even within a kind of rich, consent-driven framework like polyamory that his behavior is not obviously acceptable. I am sorry if I sounded like I was criticizing you, or polyamory. I have a decent amount of experience with polyamorous people, communities, etc though I do not currently practice a polyamorous lifestyle. I have no particular criticism of it that I would claim is relevant.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 3:10 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 3:10 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Thanks for your kind clarification! I didn’t feel singled out, but just wanted to be clear in case I wasn’t. I appreciate that nuanced perspective. <3

As for the end of my last post, I didn’t mean to adress you in particular, so that part was unclear (still). I got the impression that some posters basically saw the whole thread as either accusing or defending Culadasa, so I thought that maybe I wasn’t clear enough. That felt a bit uncomfortable, because I wouldn’t want to contribute to a polarized discussion.
Blue Jay, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 9:52 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 9:52 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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In my opinion it is not a good idea to speculate on what did or did not happen until all the facts are determined beyond reasonable doubt, especially when we are talking about dharma teachers who might be members of the Noble Sangha.
Edward, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 10:06 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 10:06 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Just in case anyone hasn't seen 'Wild Wild Country' on Netflix. It's brilliant. 
Monsoon Frog, modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 7:06 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 6:27 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 73 Join Date: 3/16/14 Recent Posts
As recent events are engaging with aspects of Culadasa's behavior that are bringing his claims and policies into question, I do have a comment. 

I'll preface this by stating I've never had a direct exchange with Culadasa and the little that I do know of him is via a very limited exposure to the dharma media he's produced and various publicly shared opinions of those who've practiced with him … on the whole mostly positive (with some exceptions until recent events). I do own his book based on many recommendations however I've not finished it as I bogged down a short distance into it (likely attributable to having reached a point of over-saturation in dharma reading than to anything in particular about the book ... and it remains in position near the top of my reading cue). I listened to some very brief sections of his YouTube videos and a podcast, but frankly not enough to really get a solid feel for what his teaching and scene are like. 

I recall some time ago reading (where I can’t recall exactly - quite possibly it was on this forum) about Culadasa offering one-on-one Skype teachings which were priced at an hourly rate that was far beyond any fee I’d ever heard of a Buddhist teacher ever charging for the dharma … IIRC it wasn't a sliding scale but rather a fixed fee and it almost approached the hourly fee of a good, experienced, successful NYC attorney. It’s not my place to tell someone how to run their business or how to become a market maker in the dharma, nonetheless my impression was that the fee was outlandish and it was hard to make sense of it in context of a 'Buddhist' teacher (as opposed to a strictly secular-pragmatic meditation teacher unaligned with Buddhism specifically … furthermore I'm not aware of teachers in the latter category charging such high fees). It did leave a very odd taste in my mouth. Very odd. Maybe Culadasa needed the funds for personal expenses and/or maybe he needed them to support his 'harem'? Is that fee structure a manifestation of excessive greed or ambition? Is there an explanation that's reasonable (with an understanding that due to the current allegations of deceitfulness and how it eventually plays out much of what Culadasa henceforth discloses may be subject to skepticism)? I’m sure I don’t know the whole story and maybe his scene and the cost of living in Arizona is more than I’ve ever imagined. It just seemed wierd. I'm honestly not sure what to think but my initial gut impression has never changed: something is 'off'. Maybe as the current scandal unfolds I'll be able to better make sense of this either pro or con. 

No doubt that the TMI brand has been damaged no matter how you slice it. 
Despite that I have the impression that Culadasa has something unique and valuable to share that's suited to this particular moment of the Dharma's unfolding in the West. 
Wishing the very best to Culadasa and all those impacted by these events and that we all grow wiser through them. Perhaps in time the truth will emerge and we'll have another data point to add to our collective wisdom. 


PS: a shout out to Daniel and his evocation of Bill Hamilton's admonitions and example of keeping it real. 
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Siavash ', modified 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 8:50 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/21/19 8:48 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Culadasa once said that that high fee is to filter students that really need to talk to him, and to put a control on how he (Culadasa) spends his time, and to make him use his time more skillfully, because without that, he spends too much time on answering people's questions, and doesn't get enought time for more important works.

I once sent him an email, said that because of US sanctions I am not able to buy his book, but probably I could ask a friend in another country to buy it but they can't send it to me, he responded promptly, and after he gave permission, my friend purchased a kindle version of the book, and after I sent the purchase confirmation to Culadasa, he sent me a pdf copy of the book, and said that my friend can use that copy too.
Fastlane, modified 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 4:05 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 4:00 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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$325 for a 45 minute consultation:
https://dharmatreasure.org/private-consultations/

Oddly there doesn't seem to be any word of the revelations on the Dharma Treasure site or forum. It's all over Reddit of course.  
Monsoon Frog, modified 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 6:00 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 4:28 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 73 Join Date: 3/16/14 Recent Posts
Fastlane:
$325 for a 45 minute consultation:
https://dharmatreasure.org/private-consultations/

Oddly there doesn't seem to be any word of the revelations on the Dharma Treasure site or forum. It's all over Reddit of course.  


Siavash Mahmoudpour:
Culadasa once said that that high fee is to filter students that really need to talk to him


Pardon me while I recover from Buddhist sticker shock. 

Based on those figures I’ll modify my assessment and state that Culadasa’s hourly dharma fee is equal to what a high end NYC attorney charges by the hour. 

In other words income and wealth become the filter for a 'real need to talk’? Sounds to me like nothing more than a way to filter out the students without deep pockets. Anyone that can dish out a consultation fee of $433/hr is going to either be in a high income bracket, a desperate sucker, or both ... regardless of 'the need to really talk'. 

neko wrote:
Those are actually standard fees, particularly in San Francisco and Los Angeles. I know several not-so-big names who charge similar fees. If a famous or not-so-famous teacher does not publish his or her hourly rate on his or her website, chances are they charge similar amounts. The only reason you've never heard of similar fees is that mostly people keep quiet about it, for fear of the backlash.

The money flow in modern Buddhism.

I really need to hurry up and get enlightened so I'll have my license to print money : )


And a Bill Hamilton quote: 
“As one of my students said after reviewing the costs of retreats around the country, ‘I can’t afford to be a Buddhist.’ I hope to change this situation.”

Michael, modified 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 6:19 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 6:19 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 21 Join Date: 10/2/17 Recent Posts
I personally would also never pay that much and I can understand why it would make people sceptical.

On the other hand: I (or anybody else) does have no right to another person's time. If I feel I really need help and I think that only talking to a certain person for two hours every day will help me and that person doesn't want to or charges too much money for me.... well, tough luck.

And there is the very real question on how a demanded teacher does spend his time. It's a legitimate point. How would you decide who "really" needs help? Also if somebody needs TMI specific help, there are forums where teachers and teachers-in-training can answer you. I am sure some would also be willing to skype with you for free or for dana.
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 7:11 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 6:29 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Based on those figures I’ll modify my assessment and state that Culadasa’s hourly dharma fee is equal to what a high end NYC attorney charges by the hour. 

Just for the sake of accuracy, a high-end attorney in NYC can cost upwards of $1,000 per hour. I have professional experience with paying such people.
neko, modified 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 4:28 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 4:22 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Monsoon Frog:

I recall some time ago reading (where I can’t recall exactly - quite possibly it was on this forum) about Culadasa offering one-on-one Skype teachings which were priced at an hourly rate that was far beyond any fee I’d ever heard of a Buddhist teacher ever charging for the dharma …

$325 for a 45 minutes consultation, according to this web page:

https://dharmatreasure.org/private-consultations/

The cost of his teacher training is comparable: $2000 for the full course of about 50 classes of two hours each, with 20 participants in each cohort gives you an hourly rate of:

($2000 * 20) / (50 * 2 hours) = $400 per hour


Although in actual practice the Teacher Training classes are proceeding at a slower pace than anticipated, so they end up being something closer to 65 classes in actual practice, which gives you:

($2000 * 20) / (65 * 2 hours) = $310 per hour


Those are actually standard fees, particularly in San Francisco and Los Angeles. I know several not-so-big names who charge similar fees. If a famous or not-so-famous teacher does not publish his or her hourly rate on his or her website, chances are they charge similar amounts. The only reason you've never heard of similar fees is that mostly people keep quiet about it, for fear of the backlash.

So in this regard Culadasa stands out not for how much he charges, but for being completely public about it, which is a point in his favour.
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Siavash ', modified 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 2:57 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 2:57 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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One of the interesting parts of this thing for me, is the mention of 4 years period in the letter. I wonder what was the relationship between publishing TMI, and these behaviors. Did they start after TMI has been published? Also what was the role of that psychological work that Culadasa had done with Douglas Tataryn. Did these activities start after that psychological work, or before it?
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mushi, modified 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 5:04 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 5:04 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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I seen this posted on Reddit but I figured it was worth a cross-post here for discussion purposes.

Watching the July Patreon Q&A, I am struck by something Culadasa said, initially on the subject of shamanism and psychological healing. In this short passage, he is describing how awakening can blind one to shadow stuff that never got "cleaned up."

The most interesting piece is from 58:00 to 1:01:20. The link is 
https://youtu.be/X7brJ8qrLBo 

Just putting this forth as information.
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Babs _, modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 6:21 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 6:21 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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mushi:
I seen this posted on Reddit but I figured it was worth a cross-post here for discussion purposes.

Watching the July Patreon Q&A, I am struck by something Culadasa said, initially on the subject of shamanism and psychological healing. In this short passage, he is describing how awakening can blind one to shadow stuff that never got "cleaned up."

The most interesting piece is from 58:00 to 1:01:20. The link is 
https://youtu.be/X7brJ8qrLBo 

Just putting this forth as information.
In the video Culadasa, a veteran of 50 years of practice and one of the most respected teachers of buddhist meditation in the West, discusses The Mind Illuminated, his own version of buddhist sutrayana meditations, and states that it "doesn't go far enough", despite of insight and awakening that the method produces. This lecture was given about a month before he was fired or himself left his own Dharma Treasure organisation due to allegations of misconduct in the forms of lying and extramarital sexual affairs.

Although Culadasa's bio says that together with his hinayana lineage, he also has vajrayana lineage, I have never seen or found a reference that would state that he is a tantric practitioner or that he would teach tantra. If you know that my information lacks in this regard, please correct me. I have sought this bit of information for few years but never found it. In some webcasts he has mentioned vajrayana in general but I have never seen him talk about tantric practices in the sense that it was something that he and his students were actively involved with. 

In the video he says that he has gone through buddhist meditation training and that, despite of some illumination, "buddhist meditation traditions" (in plural) have severe deficiencies. He goes on to say that combination of shamanism and buddhism would tap what his practices leave untapped. In this connection, he also mentions Tibetan buddhism and Bon-tradition. It adds to my belief that he is not a vajrayana practitioner because he doesn't mention his own vajrayana teachings or practices.

To my knowledge, Culadasa is a practitioner of sutrayana, so I cannot take his statement about the deficiency of all buddhist traditions  seriously. I am aware that buddhism in general and Tibetan vajrayana in particular has all kinds of problems but in general based on my own observations vajrayana practitioners as a rule go farther in their practice than practitioners of sutrayana within both mahayana and hinayana. I leave scholars, academics and doctors of buddhism entirely out of this. In terms of bhumi analysis (OHBM) it can be clearly seen that tantrics have more bhumis open and perfected, or in common terms have more clarity and purity than sutrayana practitioners do. By saying this I do not deny the benefits of sutrayana, neither in mahayana nor in hinayana, because I know from my own experience that sutra practice reaps beneftis. However, in my experience as well as Culadasa's, sutrayana leaves a lot of the psyche into the shadow. It just "doesn't go far enough". For this reason I have discussed the greater benefits of tantric practice.

The problem is that sutric meditation practice is built on one's own effort, energy and ability of attention which in the present samsaric condition are very limited. On the other hand, tantric deities that are archetypes of the enlightened mind cannot but reveal all the nooks and corners of the mind or psyche, leaving nothing hidden. This is the potential tantric practice. Some ex-Tibetan buddhists, like Stephen Batchelor, have not understood this so they have renounced tantra.

Culadasa, "As you progress on the paths of awakening, the changes of you recognising them (parts of our pscyhe) as something that needs to be purified, diminishes.".

It is such a strange thing to say but at least he is honest. This precisely is Culadasa's testimony of the insufficiency of his long sutric practice that according to his experience, he is no longer able to find the very inner obstructions and habits that lead him to behave in unethical and destructive ways. 
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 6:43 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 6:42 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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To my knowledge, Culadasa is a practitioner of sutrayana, so I cannot take his statement about the deficiency of all buddhist traditions  seriously. I am aware that buddhism in general and Tibetan vajrayana in particular has all kinds of problems but in general based on my own observations vajrayana practitioners as a rule go farther in their practice than practitioners of sutrayana within both mahayana and hinayana.

You're taking a tragic, terribly unfortunate and painful occurrence that is affecting a lot of people and making a "my dharma is better than your dharma" thing out of it. 
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Babs _, modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 7:07 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Chris Marti:
To my knowledge, Culadasa is a practitioner of sutrayana, so I cannot take his statement about the deficiency of all buddhist traditions  seriously. I am aware that buddhism in general and Tibetan vajrayana in particular has all kinds of problems but in general based on my own observations vajrayana practitioners as a rule go farther in their practice than practitioners of sutrayana within both mahayana and hinayana.
You're taking a tragic, terribly unfortunate and painful occurrence that is affecting a lot of people and making a "my dharma is better than your dharma" thing out of it. 
Not exactly, Chris. Are you not hearing what he is saying? I do think it's again really tragic that senior buddhist practitioners screw up like this. Like it or not, one has to have a really selective filter to not see that there are big problems there/here.
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 7:39 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 7:39 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Not exactly, Chris. Are you not hearing what he is saying? I do think it's again really tragic that senior buddhist practitioners screw up like this. Like it or not, one has to have a really selective filter to not see that there are big problems there/here.

You're deflecting. It's patently obvious there are problems here but they are exacerbated by people who make the problems out to be anything other than human foibles.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 7:50 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 7:50 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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I have to agree with Chris. You may have the best intentions, but it is probably painful enough for everybody involved without having this turned into some kind of dharma battle. Besides, didn’t you say that this was not that much of a problem? Suddenly you find it really tragic?
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Babs _, modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 8:36 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 8:36 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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I will not battle with you or anyone else. You are free to disagree with what I say and interpret what I say in your own way.

To me, at the moment, it looks like Culadasa's misconduct isn't even nearly as bad as many of his colleagues, but still it is misconduct. I never said or meant that it was nothing, just that he didn't seem to screw up as badly as others.

I intended my previous message to be constructive and helpful, rather than desctructive or divisive. I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings by posting it so soon after the bad news came out. I didn't come to think of this when posting my message.

I wish the best for Culadasa, his family and students. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 8:49 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 8:49 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Oh, okay. Thanks for clarifying! I’m not going to hold you to my interpretations. It is so easy to misunderstand each other on the internet, and predicting what others will make of something isn’t always that easy.
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Siavash ', modified 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 10:16 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/22/19 10:16 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Culadasa apologized:
Dear Dharma Friends,

I’m writing to say I’m sorry. I’m sorry for the harm and suffering I have caused my wife and family. I engaged in adultery and wrong speech, and failed to honor my commitment to my marriage. I’m also sorry for the pain I have caused the members of the Dharma Treasure Board, who have all been supportive friends for many years. And I’m sorry for the hurt, disappointment, and confusion this revelation has caused you who are learning about it now. (To be clear, I engaged in consensual relationships with adult women, none of whom were my students.)

Please bear with me as I take time to understand what led me to my choices and address all that’s happened. I intend to enter therapy, and I look forward to hearing and reflecting upon your responses to this letter as a part of my process of cleaning up and growing up. As part of that process I have also begun to work with dharma peers. Please be patient with me as I begin to understand the full impact of what I’ve done. More information to follow, I’ll communicate with you as I’m able.
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Ben V, modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 7:31 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 7:31 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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That's a respectable apology, IMHO. Wishing him the best in his process to come.
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spatial, modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 4:49 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 4:47 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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I am disturbed by some of the condemnations of his behavior. To be clear, I'm not defending any of his behavior. However, I have to believe that if the offense caused the same amount of pain to his wife, but was non-sexual in nature, it wouldn't be seen as being such a big deal. I'm sure that the taboo nature of the topic made it unnecessarily difficult for him to deal with this situation before it got out of control. Of course, I don't know all the details, but I find it hard to see this as such a simple case of lying.

It seems pretty obvious to me that many people are upset about this because of the expectations they had of him. Those expectations are unrealistic, and should never have been there in the first place. Demanding an apology from him so that you can feel like "the world makes sense again" is, in my estimation, not the best way to learn and grow from this incident. I also can't help but wonder if his apology is not serving to reinforce those expectations in the future.

At the same time, I will admit that this whole thing is a little bit disorienting for me, as well. I had some of those expectations, too.
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 5:09 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 5:09 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 5117 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
... many people are upset about this because of the expectations they had of him. 

Yes, that's the heart of where the condemnations and anger and fear and doubt and disappointment come from. I had a teacher once who disappointed me in a very public way. Not the kind of thing that caused this incident but none-the-less very upsetting. It taught me, at least in regard to the dharma, that we can't put people, any people, on pedestals. They're people!
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spatial, modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 6:40 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 6:40 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 614 Join Date: 5/20/18 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
... many people are upset about this because of the expectations they had of him. 

Yes, that's the heart of where the condemnations and anger and fear and doubt and disappointment come from. I had a teacher once who disappointed me in a very public way. Not the kind of thing that caused this incident but none-the-less very upsetting. It taught me, at least in regard to the dharma, that we can't put people, any people, on pedestals. They're people!
That's a really hard lesson to learn. I've been through that sort of thing many times with various kinds of teachers in my life. Part of what is disorienting me is realizing just how much I do that. Demanding that a teacher live up to my need to put them on a pedestal...it's totally unworkable.
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Ben V, modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 5:21 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 5:21 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 417 Join Date: 3/3/15 Recent Posts
Reading your post, I'm wondering then, what level of ethics shall we expect from a Dharma teacher, a teaching in which a part of the path is sila/ethics? The basic moral precepts include abstention from lying and from sexual misconduct. What if a teacher is involved long-term in breaking them? What are we to make of that?

I don't have easy answers. Obviously more and more we see how humans can screw up. But if someone is in a position of a teacher of a certain path, and he or she betrays aspects of that path big time, it seems normal that students will react in dismay. In any case, I think we could still appreciate whatever strength a teacher has and feel gratitude for it, even if he or she screws up in other ways. I havn't read TMI but it seems many are benifiting from it. 
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 5:23 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 5:23 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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What if we were to hold dharma teachers to the same moral standards we hold everyone?
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Siavash ', modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 5:34 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 5:34 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 1679 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
What if we were to hold dharma teachers to the same moral standards we hold everyone?

That would be great. When I see that people expect that dharma teachers should do all kind of work or service, but don't demand money, it kind of looks unbelievable to me. Why should we expect a senior professional (a senior teacher) to spend their time for us and don't be paid? Really why?!
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Ben V, modified 4 Years ago at 8/24/19 8:19 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/24/19 8:19 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 417 Join Date: 3/3/15 Recent Posts
Your question, as simple and "no brainer" as it seems, got me thinking here, in a good way emoticon :

Holding teachers to the same standard as everyone else is actually a good way to keep teachers both feet planted on the ground. It counters rationalizations that some teachers may have such as "when you realize emptiness every actions is enlightened action, including having an affair with students' wives": which is not the case with Culadassa but many other eachers have thought along those lines. Students were told to focus on their own practices and use the opportunity to work on their attachments, while the teachers were doing harm. This won't happen so easily if the student holds the teachers to the same standards as everyone else. The student would be able to say, "hey, that's not right and I don't accept that."

Also, it would counter unfair pressure on teachers to act 24/7 like fictional-level saints. 

It would keep students both feet on the ground as well.

It would also help people be compassionate toward teachers when they screw up instead of blaming them for not acting up to their projections. 

What I would say also though is, teachers are probably better to be held to the same standard as everyone else on the path, but have certain additional rules appropriate to their position.

As a therapist, for example, my clients can express all sorts of feelings toward me (love, romance, anger, fear, etc). This actually helps their process if I respond properly, like helping them explore their projections behind such feelings and inner life in a way that leads to growth. However, it is not ok for me to express my own feelings toward them, as this would completely sabotage the therapy. It would in fact be a betrayal of them, and hence bad ethics.

So teachers need certain rules that are different from students in order to remain effective teachers, especially as it relates to relationship with students. This being said, I'm aware that in the case here the teacher was not misbehaving toward the students. It was outside of such relationship. 

In any case, I appreciate the reflection on ethics and student projection that this whole thread is doing.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/24/19 8:31 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/24/19 8:31 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Ben V.:
Your question, as simple and "no brainer" as it seems, got me thinking here, in a good way emoticon :

Holding teachers to the same standard as everyone else is actually a good way to keep teachers both feet planted on the ground. It counters rationalizations that some teachers may have such as "when you realize emptiness every actions is enlightened action, including having an affair with students' wives": which is not the case with Culadassa but many other eachers have thought along those lines. Students were told to focus on their own practices and use the opportunity to work on their attachments, while the teachers were doing harm. This won't happen so easily if the student holds the teachers to the same standards as everyone else. The student would be able to say, "hey, that's not right and I don't accept that."

Also, it would counter unfair pressure on teachers to act 24/7 like fictional-level saints. 

It would keep students both feet on the ground as well.

It would also help people be compassionate toward teachers when they screw up instead of blaming them for not acting up to their projections. 

What I would say also though is, teachers are probably better to be held to the same standard as everyone else on the path, but have certain additional rules appropriate to their position.

As a therapist, for example, my clients can express all sorts of feelings toward me (love, romance, anger, fear, etc). This actually helps their process if I respond properly, like helping them explore their projections behind such feelings and inner life in a way that leads to growth. However, it is not ok for me to express my own feelings toward them, as this would completely sabotage the therapy. It would in fact be a betrayal of them, and hence bad ethics.

So teachers need certain rules that are different from students in order to remain effective teachers, especially as it relates to relationship with students. This being said, I'm aware that in the case here the teacher was not misbehaving toward the students. It was outside of such relationship. 

In any case, I appreciate the reflection on ethics and student projection that this whole thread is doing.


Now this is very constructive thinking, I’d say. This is how we learn from what’s happened. Of course that doesn’t help with the close relationships affected by this, but it is not for us to take on that learning either.
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Laurel Carrington, modified 4 Years ago at 8/24/19 9:28 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/24/19 9:00 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/7/14 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
What if we were to hold dharma teachers to the same moral standards we hold everyone?

I agree with you completely, Chris. Anyone who did what John Yates/Culadasa did would be violating his marriage outrageously, and then of course there’s the matter of breaking the law by going to sex workers. (On that subject, by the way, from what I understand men often do that in order to protect their marriages, because the transactional nature of the relationship minimizes the complication of having an affair with someone, getting emotionally involved, etc.)
 
My own thoughts: Culadasa took special vows, which he then broke. That in itself is a violation of trust. He also did something that obviously would harm the sangha if it came out, which it inevitably did. So he behaved recklessly towards the community. We’re not just talking about a slip-up or a “mistake” either, but a long-term, extensive pattern of violation involving many women.

I agree that all of us have to look at our unrealistic expectations and ask ourselves what role these have played in our practice. Are we thinking underneath it all that if we practice well over many years we will become perfect, or that we will unlock the secrets of the universe and dwell in a realm of jhanic bliss that will obliterate more primitive urges? I have discovered a remnant of such thinking in myself in light of this situation. Are we attached to authorities, to father figures? Do we want a kindly, trustworthy person to tell us how to practice, how to be in this world? Again, I have had a longstanding tendency in this direction. 

So yes, maybe this fall from grace can have good results for some of us if we go more deeply into our unexamined assumptions. But there are other, better ways for a teacher to help students see these things than disillusioning them in this way. I’m thinking about the reddit threads I’ve been following, full of folks who are bogged down in skeptical doubt. So to those who suggest that Culadasa’s actions have harmed only himself, his wife, and perhaps the women with whom he was involved, I have to say that I disagree. There has been harm done that demands an apology. Culadasa is a public figure, his teachings involve more than just a how-to manual for a perceptual shift, and his behavior does matter. 

I acknowledge that he did not get involved with students or their partners, and this, of course, is a good thing, but neither did he just have a slip-up or two. There is an element of compulsion in what he did, and then of course there’s the problem of the money, and the lying. I am emphasizing all of this not to be judgmental, but because I want to be clear about what has happened. We can say that teachers are humans, but along with making mistakes, or giving way to compulsions, humans have to clean up, and in order to do that properly they have to see the mess as clearly as possible, with no softening or excuses. There are reasons, but reasons are not excuses. 

None of what I’ve said means that I don’t have compassion for this man. I have great compassion for him, I believe he has offered the world a tremendous gift with his teaching and his book, and I think there are still good things he can do as his future unfolds. But the good does not cancel the harm; both need to be acknowledged. In addition, the meditation community going forward needs to learn more from this and similar cases about how extensive practice and attainments intersect with other aspects of human drives and experience. We want our practice to help us to do more good in the world, and less harm. There is work to do in figuring out how. May all beings find peace and joy. 
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spatial, modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 5:50 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 5:50 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 614 Join Date: 5/20/18 Recent Posts
Ben V.:
Reading your post, I'm wondering then, what level of ethics shall we expect from a Dharma teacher, a teaching in which a part of the path is sila/ethics? The basic moral precepts include abstention from lying and from sexual misconduct. What if a teacher is involved long-term in breaking them? What are we to make of that?

I don't have easy answers. Obviously more and more we see how humans can screw up. But if someone is in a position of a teacher of a certain path, and he or she betrays aspects of that path big time, it seems normal that students will react in dismay. In any case, I think we could still appreciate whatever strength a teacher has and feel gratitude for it, even if he or she screws up in other ways. I havn't read TMI but it seems many are benifiting from it. 

I don't have easy answers either.

If a teacher is abusing students, or knowingly misrepresenting his own level of attainment, then it would seem to me that he shouldn't be teaching. 

I'm not so sure that "breaking precepts" is quite as clear-cut. What is the benefit in only allowing people to teach who are perfect exemplars of moral conduct? In what way does that serve the students? And, where are you going to find these people? We all make mistakes now and then. Not to mention that there are many who exhibit perfect morality, but for the wrong reasons.

What exactly is the issue here? That he betrayed the path? I'm not sure that the path is something that can be "betrayed." It is a training. You're supposed to make mistakes. That's kinda the point. I'm more interested in how he handles himself now, than in what happened in the past.

Is the issue that his mistakes indicate that his level of mastery is nowhere near what he claimed it was? If that's true, I could understand saying that he's not qualified to teach. But, I'm not convinced that it's true. I just don't know.

It feels like a deflection of responsibility. Condemning him does not seem to me to be a practice in the spirit of metta or other Buddhist principles. I fail to see what benefit it brings, beyond making people feel safe. Is the issue that he's now revealed to have been a bad teacher all along, or that he's no longer living up to the grandfatherly image people had of him?
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spatial, modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 6:05 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 6:05 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Also, the amount of good that this man has done in his life is simply mind-boggling to me. Writing a book like that, spreading that kind of information, the impact he has had on his students and readers who will then go out into the world and do likewise...

If I wanted to learn morality, I would not want to learn it from someone who had a normal life and never makes mistakes. Instead, I would rather learn it from someone who had a completely screwed up childhood, has somehow managed to turn himself into a force for good, and is currently working on some unresolved intimacy issues.

I don't mean to defend him so vigorously, but this is a perspective that definitely shows up in my mind.
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Siavash ', modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 6:08 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 6:08 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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spatial:
Also, the amount of good that this man has done in his life is simply mind-boggling to me. Writing a book like that, spreading that kind of information, the impact he has had on his students and readers who will then go out into the world and do likewise...

If I wanted to learn morality, I would not want to learn it from someone who had a normal life and never makes mistakes. Instead, I would rather learn it from someone who had a completely screwed up childhood, has somehow managed to turn himself into a force for good, and is currently working on some unresolved intimacy issues.

I don't mean to defend him so vigorously, but this is a perspective that definitely shows up in my mind.

I agree completely.
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Stirling Campbell, modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 8:54 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 8:54 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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spatial:

If I wanted to learn morality, I would not want to learn it from someone who had a normal life and never makes mistakes. 

Exactly. And what makes anyone think that there isn't teaching in this episode as well as in his book or in the speech?

I am not saying this as an apologist for Mr. Yates.
Sugar Dharma Daddy, modified 4 Years ago at 8/24/19 4:34 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/24/19 5:07 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/24/19 5:07 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Sugar Dharma Daddy:


I also see the point in the argument behind this. There are structures at play that enable people in some positions to get away with things that are harmful to others. Being a teacher in the dharma is one such position, and it also interacts with other positions with regard to power structures such as gender inequalities, racism, class, and ableism. I think it is important to be aware of these structures and mindful of how they affect us. By making excuses we contribute to structures that enable this to happen. Especially if we do it differently for different people. I cannot tell to what extent we are doing this, but to some extent I think it is likely that we are (as a collective).
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Not two, not one, modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 8:08 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 7:33 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Well, the precepts and Sila generally are part of the eightfold path. It’s quite interesting in the Suttas when Dharmadinna, an arhat, is approach for guidance by her ex husband, and she says “yes I followed the eightfold path”. Past tense, as in the path stops at the destination.  Somewhere else is the Suttas, the question is raised what kind of monks needs to worry about heedlessness from intoxication, and the answer is all except those whose taints are ended. And of course Tibetan buddishm has many examples of renowned teachers drinking and having sex, and in fact yab-yam sex (physical or visualised) can be part of the Tibetan path for both females and males.

Even in Theravada, I think that sila is a means to an end, rather than being the end in itself. The primary purpose of sila is to help purify oneself. One would hope that having had deep non-dual insights Culadasa would seek to show harmlessness and act from compassion, and he mostly seems to do this, even in the nature of his transgression, except that he clearly has deeply hurt his wife and friends.  

And yes, I agree the precepts are a bit of a red herring here. Would he get the same reaction for breaking the precepts by having a glass of red wine. Or by setting mouse traps? I suspect not. So I think what we have here is clinging to the guru, and clinging to sila. And maybe clinging to judeo-christian morality. Clinging leads to suffering. 

Less clinging, less suffering.

So Spatial - let me ask from a place of compassion - what else are you clinging to? No need to answer but you might find it an interesting question to examine. What you have recognised in yourself is also a door. You can open it and walk through, if you want to.

May all beings flourish.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/24/19 5:39 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/24/19 4:44 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
spatial:
I am disturbed by some of the condemnations of his behavior. To be clear, I'm not defending any of his behavior. However, I have to believe that if the offense caused the same amount of pain to his wife, but was non-sexual in nature, it wouldn't be seen as being such a big deal. I'm sure that the taboo nature of the topic made it unnecessarily difficult for him to deal with this situation before it got out of control. Of course, I don't know all the details, but I find it hard to see this as such a simple case of lying.

It seems pretty obvious to me that many people are upset about this because of the expectations they had of him. Those expectations are unrealistic, and should never have been there in the first place. Demanding an apology from him so that you can feel like "the world makes sense again" is, in my estimation, not the best way to learn and grow from this incident. I also can't help but wonder if his apology is not serving to reinforce those expectations in the future.

At the same time, I will admit that this whole thing is a little bit disorienting for me, as well. I had some of those expectations, too.

Very well put! Personally I think there is a similar taboo with regard to romantic relationships regardless of the amount of sex. Seeing a (one) partner as ”mine” has deep cultural roots that interact with the psychological roots that seem to differ between individuals. It is seen as the default mode. It is assumed that a relationship is monogamous if the parties involved haven’t explicitly ”renegotiated” this. Given that context, imtimate relationships with others become a betrayal, but that is a conceptual overlay. This doesn’t make it less of a betrayal. We need to relate to the actual context, not to contexts that might have been. However, it is not a once and for all given context.

I agree with your whole post.

Apologies should be to those wo have directly been harmed. I have no need for an apology, as I haven’t been harmed. Apologies may not be the most skillful way to relate to it either. I don’t know if the actions involved buying of sexual service, and frankly, it is none of my business, but in general I see that kind of transaction as part of oppressive systems that interact in complex ways. Harm can be done even with subjective consent, because consent is dependently originated and may be less onepointed than one thinks. Apologizing to someone who subjectively consented gets sort of condescending, though, because it implies lack of agency. People in general like to think of themselves as having agency. From a buddhist perspective, there is no agency for any of us ultimately, but that doesn’t really help with that. Therefore harm cannot always be adressed in apologies. I still believe that it is skillful to consider it as harm and try to minimize one’s partaking in oppressive systems. That is my opinion, and I’m sure not everyone agrees. It’s not an ultimate truth, but it is how I relate to ethics in my life. Of course, having loving relationships with people who also happen to sell sex is a different thing. The same goes for supporting them economically. They should not be excluded from people’s caring based on some arbitrary principal. It is my personal belief, though, that a transactional approach to intimate interplay can to a varying extent make it difficult for the parties involved to pinpoint the exact boundaries for what is what. Therefore it is also sometimes very complicated to draw the lines fow exactly what is an ethically unproblematic form of relating and what contributes to power imbalances that enable harm to be done. I think unfortunately most people apply some degree of transactional thinking to their close relationships, because that’s how samsara works, but paying for sex puts that to a head. The way I see it - and I know that this is intensively debated - normalizing the buying of sex enhances samsara. I don’t think it’s the way to go. At the same time, the people who sell sex should be respected just like everybody else and have the same rights. They should not be stigmatized. I don’t know what would accomplish this* without normalizing something that enhances samsara and that also makes it too easy to exploit people in trafficking and people who have a difficult situation socially and economically, sometimes involving severe drug addictions and self-harming behavior (I have friends who have sold sex as self-harming behavior). The dependent origination here is a mess.

*) EDIT: I personally believe that the Swedish law, that makes it legal to sell sex but illegal to buy it, is an attemt at balancing this, and the best one that I have heard of so far, but obviously it doesn’t work perfectly. This is a very complicated issue.
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Smiling Stone, modified 4 Years ago at 8/24/19 7:07 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/24/19 7:07 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 341 Join Date: 5/10/16 Recent Posts
Hey Linda, I agree with your whole post.

"Apologies should be to those wo have directly been harmed. I have no need for an apology, as I haven’t been harmed. Apologies may not be the most skillful way to relate to it either. I don’t know if the actions involved buying of sexual dhamma service, and frankly, it is none of my business, but in general I see that kind of transaction as part of oppressive systems that interact in complex ways.[...]. Of course, having loving dhamma relationships with people who also happen to sell sex it is a different thing. The same goes for supporting them economically. They should not be excluded from people’s caring based on some arbitrary principal. It is my personal belief, though, that a transactional approach to intimate dhamma interplay can to a varying extent make it difficult for the parties involved to pinpoint the exact boundaries for what is what. Therefore it is also sometimes very complicated to draw the lines fow exactly what is an ethically unproblematic form of relating and what contributes to power imbalances that enable harm to be done. I think unfortunately most people apply some degree of transactional thinking to their close relationships, because that’s how samsara works, but paying for sex dhamma puts that to a head. The way I see it - and I know that this is intensively debated - normalizing the buying of sex dhamma enhances samsara. I don’t think it’s the way to go."

Well I stop there, sorry, I could not help it... It came to me reading your post. Like dhamma, we like sex to be free. Money takes a whole emotional dimension off the act of making love (well, I infer here)... Ok the commercialisation of dhamma has more in common, perhaps, with the commercialisation of discussion as in various therapies but the point remains. There is a demand, which has to be satisfied...

About the Culadasa issue, it seems to me, taking in account Daniel's comment, that the board was composed of wise and balanced people, and that they pondered for a long while before going public.It seems to me that it got to the point where they recognized that he was not fit to teach anymore, period. I do not see it as a jealous reaction of his wife. And he waited for a while before issuing his "apology", when it became evident that there was no way out. He is still navigating not to lose his "big business" in the long term. And his apologies are directed at his customers, mainly...
I also wonder, with Slavash, if it had something to do with his therapy, because he talks in the DY podcast of how different emotions (hindrances, really) came to the surface after being absent for so long. Was lust one of them? Maybe getting in therapy was already part of looking for a solution, not a trigger. It seems also that he got a lot of help from some students with putting the book into shape... doubt is creeping in about his attainments, I must confess.

Well, enough rambling, that was pure reactivity I admit
May all involved find true happiness, true liberation
smiling stone
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/24/19 8:41 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/24/19 8:17 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Hi Smiley!

I don’t know if the part of stopping there and apologizing meant that you found something to disagree with or if you just felt the need to say something instead. In either way, I think you raise valid points, in your whole post. The selling and buying of dhamma involves similar complications, I suppose, although the power balance is very different in those two cases. The person selling dhamma normally doesn’t get abused by their customers as often as is the case in the majority of transactions regarding sexual services. That abuse is my main reason for not wanting to normalize buying of sex (for singling out this kind of transaction in particular) and yet not wanting the selling to be illegal.

As for the role of therapy, I’m leaning more to it as a solution than a trigger, but I don’t think one thing excludes the other. If there was spiritual bypassing leading to emotions being repressed rather than dealt with, those emotions were probably just waiting to manifest somehow. Anyway, I think this is how the human mind works. I don’t mean to speculate specifically about one person’s psyche. Therapies that suddenly open the dam could enable a flood, I guess. Maybe that dam would have burst anyway, maybe it would have remained blocked until death, or maybe it would have been possible to open it gradually for a more even flow. Who knows? Would it have been a good thing to keep it fully blocked? Good for whom, for what purpose? Does the mimick of an ideal relationship make anyone truly happy? I doubt it. Is it skillful to open a dam in a way that allows the flood to tear apart its surroundings? Well, of course not. What kind of opening of the dam would have had a skillful outcome? That is very difficult to say. Let’s just say that now we know that this wasn’t it and wish for the best possible outcome from what has now unfolded.
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Smiling Stone, modified 4 Years ago at 8/24/19 9:12 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/24/19 9:12 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 341 Join Date: 5/10/16 Recent Posts
Hey Linda,
Nothing to disagree with, I just felt that applying the same trick on the last three lines of your text would have been rude and improper (as you validly raise the point that it is already a little bit far-fetched to draw a connection between dhamma and sex).
When I was talking about solution or trigger, I meant that maybe the damm had already been flooded, and that therapy was a first move toward a resolution, but did not prove sufficient. these kind of hypothesis are not so skillfull anyway...
metta
smiling stone
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/24/19 9:19 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/24/19 9:19 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Ah, I see. Yeah. Thanks both for the clarification and the respectfulness!

Oh, I see. Then I misunderstood and replied to something else. I should probably be mindful of mind-racing today.
A Dietrich Ringle, modified 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 5:36 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/23/19 5:36 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 881 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
Renunciation and the fruits of the spiritual life 
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Raving Rhubarb, modified 4 Years ago at 8/26/19 5:39 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/26/19 5:38 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 73 Join Date: 7/5/18 Recent Posts
This thread is very entertaining, but I'm not sure what to learn from it yet. I'll try to sum up:
  • You can go from public celebrated meditation hero to psychopath pretty quickly.
  • As a grown man who provides lots of value to people, and they pay for it, you are not allowed to spend your money in the way you want to. You have to ask your wife for her permission first. Otherwise the internet will be very angry with you.
  • The real problem with Culadasa is that he followed a sutrayana practice. That's the reason why he couldn't get rid of desire. He should have followed a vajrayana practice instead. If he had done that, he would not have pretended to be a 10 fetter arahant while hiring hookers secretly. Instead he would have written poems praising sex, drugs, & rocknroll while living accordingly. This would have been a much better and very different outcome.
  • The dhamma is much better than therapy because it REALLY LIBERATEZ YOU FROM THEM SUFFERINGZ and it removes ALL THEM HINDRANCEZ. But when push comes to shove, you do not actually seek out a better dhamma teacher. You seek out therapy instead. At least after you have been found out, that is. This is because... ?_?
  • Although it's the current year, people still believe in fairy tales aka 10 fetter Buddhism. (the reddits are pretty involuntarily hilarious)
  • Although it's still the current year, people still believe in fairy tales aka life-long traditional marriage being a particularly good and realistic idea. (the reddits are pretty involuntarily hilarious)
  • If you are currently dying and try to escape your dead bedroom marriage beforehand, it is appropriate to have at least 10 new sexual partners. (Mysteriously, we lost count of the exact number.) This probably corresponds somehow to the 10 stages of TMI.
More interesting is an alternative conclusion: the TMI system doesn't work, but not for the reasons which people point out now.
If TMI worked, it should show people what they can really expect from practice.
But apparently it doesn't: as soon as they discover their hero's preference for sexual variety, they're like "I better find another system".
Uh huh.
Lol.
C'mon people, what are you even doing?
Why the fuck do you even practice if you are discouraged by something as banal as your dying teacher's attempt at escaping his dead bedroom?
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Babs _, modified 4 Years ago at 8/26/19 8:12 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/26/19 8:12 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 709 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Raving Rhubarb:
This thread is very entertaining, but I'm not sure what to learn from it yet. I'll try to sum up:
  • You can go from public celebrated meditation hero to psychopath pretty quickly.
  • As a grown man who provides lots of value to people, and they pay for it, you are not allowed to spend your money in the way you want to. You have to ask your wife for her permission first. Otherwise the internet will be very angry with you.
  • The real problem with Culadasa is that he followed a sutrayana practice. That's the reason why he couldn't get rid of desire. He should have followed a vajrayana practice instead. If he had done that, he would not have pretended to be a 10 fetter arahant while hiring hookers secretly. Instead he would have written poems praising sex, drugs, & rocknroll while living accordingly. This would have been a much better and very different outcome.
  • The dhamma is much better than therapy because it REALLY LIBERATEZ YOU FROM THEM SUFFERINGZ and it removes ALL THEM HINDRANCEZ. But when push comes to shove, you do not actually seek out a better dhamma teacher. You seek out therapy instead. At least after you have been found out, that is. This is because... ?_?
  • Although it's the current year, people still believe in fairy tales aka 10 fetter Buddhism. (the reddits are pretty involuntarily hilarious)
  • Although it's still the current year, people still believe in fairy tales aka life-long traditional marriage being a particularly good and realistic idea. (the reddits are pretty involuntarily hilarious)
  • If you are currently dying and try to escape your dead bedroom marriage beforehand, it is appropriate to have at least 10 new sexual partners. (Mysteriously, we lost count of the exact number.) This probably corresponds somehow to the 10 stages of TMI.
More interesting is an alternative conclusion: the TMI system doesn't work, but not for the reasons which people point out now.
If TMI worked, it should show people what they can really expect from practice.
But apparently it doesn't: as soon as they discover their hero's preference for sexual variety, they're like "I better find another system".
Uh huh.
Lol.
C'mon people, what are you even doing?
Why the fuck do you even practice if you are discouraged by something as banal as your dying teacher's attempt at escaping his dead bedroom?
Thank for that RR. Good remarks.

I don't know if it's because of Hamilton's book and his influence on this community, that people are branded psychopaths so easily. I've seen discussions about this on various forums and it always is the case that people's view about personality disorders is too limited to be taken seriously, so it just becomes bashing and ill talk. I am not a psychiatrist but the black or white-type branding is obviously based on limited understanding and has nothing to do with actual diagnosis of such disorders.

Daniel Ingram, himself a doctor, hasn't answered my questions reg. his bringing up psychopathy in this thread, in relation to Culadasa, but to me it seemed just like the type of branding we see elsewhere online. I didn't dig it and feel that it was both strange and unskillful of Daniel to put it out there. If there is more to your comments, Daniel, please enlighten us.

Yes, the internet is very angry to people who break rules or make mistakes. Casting stones still goes on... Thanks again RR.
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Laurel Carrington, modified 4 Years ago at 8/26/19 9:01 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/26/19 9:01 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/7/14 Recent Posts
Raving Rhubarb, with what clairvoyance do you assume Culadasa has had a dead bedroom? Sheesh. 

Yeah, monogamous marriage is challenging, boring, outdated, yadayadayada. Plenty of people still manage to thrive in such marriages. 

My take on TMI is that some people do well with it, others not so well. I tend to think we all benefit from mixing things up a bit rather than marching along a narrow path. And we shouldn’t expect anything from our teachers beyond ordinary morality, whatever that means. A good start would be basic honesty.  
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 4 Years ago at 8/26/19 9:28 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/26/19 9:28 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Curiously, during September 2018, during one of the Q&A sessions where Culadasa and I were present, he went into this discussion about how kind and compassionate it was for women to have sex with old sick men like him, a point which seemed perfectly reasonable to me, and he got this large smile on his face, and he stared warmly at Nancy Yates, his wife, and she started warmly back at him, and they had this shared moment which seemed to imply that things were well on that front at home, at least then. Little did I know what was behind that smile at the time, but the image in my head now takes on this whole other set of meanings.

I have no idea if this was what it seemed, if this was a public performance, or if they were actually lovers then, etc. I do know it gave me and likely others the distinct impression that they were or wished to appear that they were. One more small data point of likely little profound relevance or meaning.

As to raising Bill's concerns and bringing up his list and recommending that people to do their own math and draw their own conclusions, that is a perfectly reasonable thing to do in situations like this. Call me old school or whatever. If one wishes a more sophisticated discussion of this sort of topic, as it seems some do, consider reading Malignant Self Love, by Sam Vankin, a self-admitted narcissist who also wrote probably the best book on narcissism available, and then, like independent adults, draw your own conclusions and make your own decisions.

As to stating that Vajrayana practice would simply get one praising drugs and prostitutes: I think that both the Vajrayana and the topics of drugs and prostitutes are a bit more complicated than that.
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Raving Rhubarb, modified 4 Years ago at 8/28/19 8:03 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/28/19 8:03 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 73 Join Date: 7/5/18 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:
Curiously, during September 2018, during one of the Q&A sessions where Culadasa and I were present, he went into this discussion about how kind and compassionate it was for women to have sex with old sick men like him, a point which seemed perfectly reasonable to me, and he got this large smile on his face, and he stared warmly at Nancy Yates, his wife, and she started warmly back at him, and they had this shared moment which seemed to imply that things were well on that front at home, at least then. Little did I know what was behind that smile at the time, but the image in my head now takes on this whole other set of meanings.


o_O With every detail this story is getting weirder...

btw I find your restraint admirable. Everyone is upset about their fantasies of the emotional perfection/psychological perfection/perfect action/no desire models being shattered. You could be like "TOLD YOU SO" all over reddit, but you aren't...
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Ben V, modified 4 Years ago at 8/28/19 9:57 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/28/19 9:57 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 417 Join Date: 3/3/15 Recent Posts
I was hoping that pragmatic dharma teachers would discuss this case, or ethics and teachers in general, beyond the "awakening doesn't make one ethically perfect" discourse. In that respect I appreciate that Daniel did just that (i.e. go beyond just saying that) when he said " I have written extensively about the fact that mammals are mammals, but that is not the same as excusing behavior that harms..."

So ya, we get it, awakening doesn't make anyone perfect. And even if we get it, it can still be upsetting when a teacher that teaches a path including moral vows breaks them to such an extent. And we can be upset in a mature way, accepting flaws and forgiving. But I think it is still ok to be upset with this.
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Dhamma_no_drama Dhamma_no_drama, modified 4 Years ago at 8/28/19 11:57 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/28/19 11:57 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 27 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Ben V.:
I was hoping that pragmatic dharma teachers would discuss this case, or ethics and teachers in general.


Same!

I hope that at some point Culadasa can talk openly about all of it and be honest about how he end up making those choices.
shargrol, modified 4 Years ago at 8/28/19 10:11 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/28/19 10:11 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 2345 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
I think it’s still really early on.... I wouldn’t be surprised if it gets weirder 
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 8/28/19 11:00 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/28/19 11:00 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 5117 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I wouldn’t be surprised if it gets weirder 

Bingo!
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Shaun Steelgrave, modified 4 Years ago at 8/28/19 11:10 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/28/19 11:10 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 121 Join Date: 7/7/19 Recent Posts
*chews popcorn*
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/28/19 12:23 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/28/19 12:16 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Raving Rhubarb:
Daniel M. Ingram:
Curiously, during September 2018, during one of the Q&A sessions where Culadasa and I were present, he went into this discussion about how kind and compassionate it was for women to have sex with old sick men like him, a point which seemed perfectly reasonable to me, and he got this large smile on his face, and he stared warmly at Nancy Yates, his wife, and she started warmly back at him, and they had this shared moment which seemed to imply that things were well on that front at home, at least then. Little did I know what was behind that smile at the time, but the image in my head now takes on this whole other set of meanings.


o_O With every detail this story is getting weirder...

btw I find your restraint admirable. Everyone is upset about their fantasies of the emotional perfection/psychological perfection/perfect action/no desire models being shattered. You could be like "TOLD YOU SO" all over reddit, but you aren't...


HAHAHAHAHA! Sorry, my restraint is less admirable. I could easily see myself going ”TOLD YOU SO” all over internet on a bad reobservation day, so I’m relieved that I was in no position to do so. Oh, the remorse... I can easily imagine that feeling as well. And as I don’t think awakening will fix that (thanks to Daniel and this forum), I need to find other ways of working with that kind of impulses.

Edited to add:
I don’t mean to ridicule anyone who is upset, though. This is a complex issue. I’m not enough familiar with Culadasa’s ethical teachings to comment on potential contradictions there.
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Shaun Steelgrave, modified 4 Years ago at 8/26/19 9:23 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/26/19 9:23 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 121 Join Date: 7/7/19 Recent Posts
haha +1
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Raving Rhubarb, modified 4 Years ago at 8/27/19 1:22 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/27/19 1:22 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 73 Join Date: 7/5/18 Recent Posts
I forgot two noteworthy points:
  • In 2019, if you are a meditation teacher, not sexually exploiting your students is an act worthy of praise. 
  • When people are on their deathbed and you ask them what they regret about their life, then they will tell you they should have spent less time working and more time with their family. Or so I hear. Well, that's what they say. When they actually have some time left, and they have the ability and money to do some of it before they die, then they go poly big time and spend years building a network of lovers/sexual partners. This is an observation from a highly attained spiritual teacher. His practice probably showed him what is really important in life, so rather than condemning him, we should follow his example. I mean, this is what we've been doing all along, why stop now...
btw @Kim: Although I find this and the related reddit discussions quite bizarre, I'm not actually trying to defend this culadasa guy. If you manage to make a big business out of making vows, and then you are caught after breaking them for 4 years straight and lying to everyone about it, then maybe being asked to step down from your position is not so unreasonable... Guy is still famous and probably has still a lot of followers left. He could try for a second career pandering to the poly community. He could invent some new vows and declare himself Upasaka 2.0 or something.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/27/19 2:27 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/27/19 2:27 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Actually, polyamorous people as a community seem to be more inclined towards tantric practices. emoticon
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Noah D, modified 4 Years ago at 8/28/19 6:36 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/28/19 6:36 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Raving Rhubarb:
This thread is very entertaining, but I'm not sure what to learn from it yet. I'll try to sum up:
  • You can go from public celebrated meditation hero to psychopath pretty quickly.
  • As a grown man who provides lots of value to people, and they pay for it, you are not allowed to spend your money in the way you want to. You have to ask your wife for her permission first. Otherwise the internet will be very angry with you.
  • The real problem with Culadasa is that he followed a sutrayana practice. That's the reason why he couldn't get rid of desire. He should have followed a vajrayana practice instead. If he had done that, he would not have pretended to be a 10 fetter arahant while hiring hookers secretly. Instead he would have written poems praising sex, drugs, & rocknroll while living accordingly. This would have been a much better and very different outcome.
  • The dhamma is much better than therapy because it REALLY LIBERATEZ YOU FROM THEM SUFFERINGZ and it removes ALL THEM HINDRANCEZ. But when push comes to shove, you do not actually seek out a better dhamma teacher. You seek out therapy instead. At least after you have been found out, that is. This is because... ?_?
  • Although it's the current year, people still believe in fairy tales aka 10 fetter Buddhism. (the reddits are pretty involuntarily hilarious)
  • Although it's still the current year, people still believe in fairy tales aka life-long traditional marriage being a particularly good and realistic idea. (the reddits are pretty involuntarily hilarious)
  • If you are currently dying and try to escape your dead bedroom marriage beforehand, it is appropriate to have at least 10 new sexual partners. (Mysteriously, we lost count of the exact number.) This probably corresponds somehow to the 10 stages of TMI.

LOL at this section!

This is an x post from reddit, but I would like to share my opinion here also:

No, I feel bad for him dealing with a mixing of his public & private lives. I think his ability to teach dharma has little to do with what professional services he utilizes. I think seeing sex workers rather than misconduct with students is a testament to realization. I think it’s also fishy that this “expose” is occurring within the context of marital conflict - it poses more of a conflict of interest then I’ve seen in similar past scenarios.

Edit: I also have a big ethical problem with the confounding of various types of sexual misconduct. I find it troublesome to even vaguely associate someone an adult man who has concensual contact with adult sex workers with other teachers who commit sexual assault against the daughters of their students (Sakyong Mipham, Muktananda), against adult female students (Eido Shimano, Sasaki Roshi, Sogyal). It reminds me of when Aziz Ansari (who went on a date with a women, inappropriately persauded her to sleep with him for 30 minutes & then stopped) was lumped in with serial rapists like Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein. To me, the counfoudning of these cases undermine the growing importance of the practice of radical consent in our society. For an overview of this practice, see "Good Sex" by Jessica Graham. The most important thing in case of true abuse of power is the radical shifting of power out of the hands of the abuser & into those of the victim. To do this, we have to be able to distinguish between dopey decision making & true evil.
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 8/28/19 6:58 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/28/19 6:45 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 5117 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
JMHO, but it's not the consensual sex with other adults that makes this troubling. It's the hypocrisy. The guy makes himself out to be holier than thou and then it turns out he's a bit of a fiend. The dude is supposedly happily married (see Daniel's description of their public relationship up above) and yet it turns out he's a bit of a fiend. In my estimation, this is an example of what can happen when you project the image that you may not to be subject to your human-ness. 
Bames Jond, modified 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 11:33 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 11:26 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 16 Join Date: 5/25/15 Recent Posts
Exactly Chris.

I think most people haven't paid close enough attention to what he is/was actually teaching and saying. I can understand why one might read the book, benefit from it's clear and relatively secular instructions etc. and then with these revelations go "hey, what's the big deal, just a dude doing dude stuff". But when taken in full context of the view he consistently presented over years (in a, let's remind ourselves, relatively exclusive and arrogant fashion) on the Dhamma and the possibilities of meditation practice, his admission of sexual misconduct on this scale paints him as a complete hypocrite if not a pathological liar.

Having not just read the book but been on retreat with him for a couple months, listened to a number of his teaching retreats, and generally been in the scene, the fact is that he was not simply purporting to adhere to the Upasaka vows, but actually explicitly or implicitly a much higher degree of emotional perfection type enlightenment. Consider the following:
  • In a teaching retreat he claimed that at some path there's no compulsion for sex
  • He says at fourth there's no desire/suffering
  • Claims progressive insight and samadhi are characterized by progressive unification
  • Strong claims that insight and "compassion" are related
  • Not just the above, but is/was writing his next book on how if some significant minority of the world population achieves first path we'll enter a utopic post-history state
Again, he's been saying the above consistently for years now. Needless to say, his actions contradict all of those claims.

Luckily for me, Daniel's writings were my first exposure to serious practice and so I had a shield against taking any of that stuff too seriously, not to mention my own intuiton and experience with Culadasa to go off. But for people who took it more seriously, it's no wonder they are upset or confused. And to blame it all on "grandfather projection" means you don't know much about what the man was teaching.

In the Theravada the process of developing right view is often presented as a gradual one: we start open-minded yet a little skeptical. We put the instructions into practice, confirm a few of the predictions and therby gain a bit of faith in the further predictions, at least enough to do the practices sincerely. This process is encouraged especially in Western contexts by analogy to the scientific process. But Culadasa's actions make one consider the converse reasoning: if so many of his claims are false, then why not assume the rest are false as well? Or at least likely enough to be false to justify not doing the damn hard work to find out ourselves!

Personally, I am pretty sure there's tremendous value in this path, but I can see why people who had done little to no projection might still lose the desire to practice - which in my mind is the only consequence of concern, the rest is his business.
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 11:49 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 11:49 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 5117 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
But Culadasa's actions make one consider the converse reasoning: if so many of his claims are false, then why not assume the rest are false as well? Or at least likely enough to be false to justify not doing the damn hard work to find out ourselves!

Yep. That's the serious long term damage to this arena that people like Culadasa (and The Sakyong, and many others) cause. They make legitimate reasons to practice, and the legitimate results of dedicated practice, seem as trite and potentially harmful as their own bullshit.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 12:03 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 12:03 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Has he specifically been teaching people to refrain from any hedonistic pursuit of sexual pleasure? Oups... Yeah, I can see how that might affect people’s faith in the dharma.
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Siavash ', modified 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 2:07 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 1:55 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 1679 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Has he specifically been teaching people to refrain from any hedonistic pursuit of sexual pleasure? Oups... Yeah, I can see how that might affect people’s faith in the dharma.


I have heard him say that an arhat can have sex withuot craving. The point that looks contradictory to me, is the point about compassion. He has said that when an arhat wakes up in the morning, since they don't have craving, their motivation for life is the compassion for all beings. And he considers himself an arhat. I don't see a problem about paying for sex, but lying about it? 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 2:19 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 2:19 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Personally, I think paying for sex is even worse than lying about it since the normalization of buying sex is intimately connected with an increase in trafficking and other forms of exploitation of people’s bad situations. Lying isn’t okay either, of course, especially since there are also health risks involved.

I have listened to quite a few dharma talks from Culadasa without hearing anything that led me to believe that he considered awakening a way to reach perfection, but maybe I just took it for granted that perfection was out of the equation and therefore didn’t interpret it that way. Also, I had already seen him display passive aggressiveness on the internet, so it was pretty obvious that he had some psychological growing left to do, like most people. It actually took me a while to even consider listening to his dharma talks because I had a bad feeling from his online behavior. Then I decided to be more pragmatic about it and listen selectively, and I found his dharma talks very helpful.
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Siavash ', modified 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 2:35 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 2:35 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 1679 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
Well I didn't say that paying for sex is ok, my point was that from what we know from the story, I don't see a problem in that part (paying for sex), because there aren't much details about it. I think this issue is more complicated than saying once for all that it's ok or not ok. I know wealthy people who had/have all kinds of facilities in their life, but they like to do sex for money. I am against having rules that ignores minorities, also against anything that exploits people's minds and body's and trusts etc, like this whole sex traffic business, but anything that would ignore minorities (I don't mean that you said that minorities should be ignored :-), just needed to say this), would lead to some other problems I think.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 8:40 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 8:40 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Siavash Mahmoudpour:
Well I didn't say that paying for sex is ok, my point was that from what we know from the story, I don't see a problem in that part (paying for sex), because there aren't much details about it. I think this issue is more complicated than saying once for all that it's ok or not ok. I know wealthy people who had/have all kinds of facilities in their life, but they like to do sex for money. I am against having rules that ignores minorities, also against anything that exploits people's minds and body's and trusts etc, like this whole sex traffic business, but anything that would ignore minorities (I don't mean that you said that minorities should be ignored :-), just needed to say this), would lead to some other problems I think.


Right. That is a nuanced approach. I like it. If no exploitation or abuse of power is involved, intentionally or unintentionally, then I don’t have a problem with people paying for sex per se. It’s just so tricky to disentangle what is what in this world where oppression does occur in different directions.
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Siavash ', modified 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 9:34 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 9:34 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 1679 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Siavash Mahmoudpour:
Well I didn't say that paying for sex is ok, my point was that from what we know from the story, I don't see a problem in that part (paying for sex), because there aren't much details about it. I think this issue is more complicated than saying once for all that it's ok or not ok. I know wealthy people who had/have all kinds of facilities in their life, but they like to do sex for money. I am against having rules that ignores minorities, also against anything that exploits people's minds and body's and trusts etc, like this whole sex traffic business, but anything that would ignore minorities (I don't mean that you said that minorities should be ignored :-), just needed to say this), would lead to some other problems I think.


Right. That is a nuanced approach. I like it. If no exploitation or abuse of power is involved, intentionally or unintentionally, then I don’t have a problem with people paying for sex per se. It’s just so tricky to disentangle what is what in this world where oppression does occur in different directions.

Yes. I guess in 99.xx % of times, there are some exploitations involved.
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Griffin, modified 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 2:40 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 2:40 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 271 Join Date: 4/7/18 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I have listened to quite a few dharma talks from Culadasa without hearing anything that led me to believe that he considered awakening a way to reach perfection

Here's a quote from Culadasa's handout on awakening:
People often expect enlightened beings to live up to their own ideals and expectations of enlightenment: To be beautiful, graceful, pleasing, healthy, intelligent, neat, radiant, charismatic, loving, to have psychic powers, etc, etc. Some will expect the enlightened being to have no personality, no ego, to never speak in the first person, and to experience no emotion other than love. Infallibility and omniscience, amongst other psychic powers like reading minds and knowing the future, are popular expectations. Most will assume the enlightened beings are free from neuroses, phobias, and obsessions. All such expectations are doomed. As William Hamilton said, “I haven’t met an Arahant who wasn’t a unique caricature” of the personality he was before enlightenment. And as Sayadaw U Pandita once said, “Because of habit patterns, it is possible for an Arahant to be obnoxious. However the difference with Arahants is that, if it is pointed out to them that they are obnoxious, they are capable of reflecting on situations and changing their behavior.”

To be fair, the rest of the handout does describe awakening in pretty superlative terms (complete freedom from desire and aversion etc.).
Bames Jond, modified 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 3:04 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 3:04 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 16 Join Date: 5/25/15 Recent Posts
That's a good quote Griffin, thanks for dredging it up.

He clearly didn't only buy in to the perfection view. Part of the problem here is the mind's tendency to fixate and localize the complex interconnected universe region we might call Culadasa down into a person with a coherent and static view. He definitely has changed his views on various issues over time (e.g. sati used to mean for him "optimal interaction of attention and awareness" and now is just awareness itself).

My best intention here would not be to gotcha-him, but instead to simply point out how someone could have earnestly followed his teachings without too much dadd-ifying and still be legitimately confused about the epistemic status of this whole meditation thing. There's no doubt for me that he is a brilliant teacher with a gift for clear and thoughtful merging of theory and practice. At the same time, his own lived experience seems to contradict some of his stated opinions about the consequences of a successful meditation practice and his credibility generally.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 3:08 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 3:08 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I see your point. That’s well put.
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spatial, modified 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 5:23 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 5:23 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 614 Join Date: 5/20/18 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Personally, I think paying for sex is even worse than lying about it since the normalization of buying sex is intimately connected with an increase in trafficking and other forms of exploitation of people’s bad situations. Lying isn’t okay either, of course, especially since there are also health risks involved.

I have listened to quite a few dharma talks from Culadasa without hearing anything that led me to believe that he considered awakening a way to reach perfection, but maybe I just took it for granted that perfection was out of the equation and therefore didn’t interpret it that way. Also, I had already seen him display passive aggressiveness on the internet, so it was pretty obvious that he had some psychological growing left to do, like most people. It actually took me a while to even consider listening to his dharma talks because I had a bad feeling from his online behavior. Then I decided to be more pragmatic about it and listen selectively, and I found his dharma talks very helpful.

Coincidentally, I happen to be listening to a talk by him right now, and he happens to be talking about this very topic (in regards to stream entry). He's making the point that before stream entry, morality is about following external rules, but after stream entry, it comes from inside, from way the mind processes reality. 

This is why it's hard for me to take seriously the comments that say "nevermind perfect virtue, Culadasa is failing to be simply a decent human being." Morality that is the result of seeking social approval by following rules might be beneficial as far as society is concerned, but how can one possibly compare it with the results of actual wisdom? And, to me at least, it follows that training the mind to re-process reality in a wiser fashion is going to take time (and experience), even after the capacity is unlocked.

Listen starting at 33:26: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTTbURalWwY
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 1:27 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 1:27 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Yeah, well, I was talking about real life consequences for people, not some moral principle and definitely not social approval. What exactly are you saying? That the actions might have been much wiser than we could possibly understand in our limited wisdom? Or that the burden of wisdom might be too difficult to navigate for the guy’s poor human brain?
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spatial, modified 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 9:31 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 9:31 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 614 Join Date: 5/20/18 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Yeah, well, I was talking about real life consequences for people, not some moral principle and definitely not social approval. What exactly are you saying? That the actions might have been much wiser than we could possibly understand in our limited wisdom? Or that the burden of wisdom might be too difficult to navigate for the guy’s poor human brain?
My comments weren't really in response to anything you were saying, apart from "I found his dharma talks very helpful", and the fact that this talk is directly related to the current topic.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 5:43 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 5:43 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
spatial:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Yeah, well, I was talking about real life consequences for people, not some moral principle and definitely not social approval. What exactly are you saying? That the actions might have been much wiser than we could possibly understand in our limited wisdom? Or that the burden of wisdom might be too difficult to navigate for the guy’s poor human brain?
My comments weren't really in response to anything you were saying, apart from "I found his dharma talks very helpful", and the fact that this talk is directly related to the current topic.



Thanks for clarifying! Sorry for my confusion!
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 9:00 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 9:00 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Siavash Mahmoudpour:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Has he specifically been teaching people to refrain from any hedonistic pursuit of sexual pleasure? Oups... Yeah, I can see how that might affect people’s faith in the dharma.


I have heard him say that an arhat can have sex withuot craving. The point that looks contradictory to me, is the point about compassion. He has said that when an arhat wakes up in the morning, since they don't have craving, their motivation for life is the compassion for all beings. And he considers himself an arhat. I don't see a problem about paying for sex, but lying about it? 


The part about having sex without craving doesn’t seem like preaching that people should behave in a certain way to me (and you don’t seem to think that either), but more like a description of a shift that may occur. Whether it is actually free from craving is not for me to say. I have noticed some kind of change in my own sexuality since SE, though. It’s like a hook that used to kick in doesn’t kick in as a default anymore. I find it difficult to explain, but it is noticable. I imagine that there may be more shifts at later paths. It seems likely that craving can still occur, though.

As for the part about being driven by compassion for all beings, that’s a great ideal, but it doesn’t seem to hold up to scrutiny. I think probably one doesn’t realize that one was embedded in ego stuff until one gets out of it. If one is aware of that risk, maybe it is easier to get out of it in time to see what is happening. Assuming that there is no such risk seems to be the greatest risk.
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Siavash ', modified 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 9:45 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 9:41 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 1679 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Siavash Mahmoudpour:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Has he specifically been teaching people to refrain from any hedonistic pursuit of sexual pleasure? Oups... Yeah, I can see how that might affect people’s faith in the dharma.


I have heard him say that an arhat can have sex withuot craving. The point that looks contradictory to me, is the point about compassion. He has said that when an arhat wakes up in the morning, since they don't have craving, their motivation for life is the compassion for all beings. And he considers himself an arhat. I don't see a problem about paying for sex, but lying about it? 


The part about having sex without craving doesn’t seem like preaching that people should behave in a certain way to me (and you don’t seem to think that either), but more like a description of a shift that may occur. Whether it is actually free from craving is not for me to say. I have noticed some kind of change in my own sexuality since SE, though. It’s like a hook that used to kick in doesn’t kick in as a default anymore. I find it difficult to explain, but it is noticable. I imagine that there may be more shifts at later paths. It seems likely that craving can still occur, though.

As for the part about being driven by compassion for all beings, that’s a great ideal, but it doesn’t seem to hold up to scrutiny. I think probably one doesn’t realize that one was embedded in ego stuff until one gets out of it. If one is aware of that risk, maybe it is easier to get out of it in time to see what is happening. Assuming that there is no such risk seems to be the greatest risk.


Yes, I think the part about sex without craving, is something more genuine and real than just preaching, but I don't know more.

About compassion, in the Buddhist Geeks conference that they talked about Sasaki Roshi's case, Shinzen said that it's not that he doesn't have compassion, but his definition of compassion is different from how I (Shinzen) would define it, and he said that Sasaki Roshi lacks empathy and not compassion. I don't know that the same argument could be applied to Culadasa too, but if it's the case that your motivation for all your actions is compassion (including compassion to yourself), it's a little hard to justify hiding things and lying about them and etc, to think that they are just compassionate actions and behaviors.
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Laurel Carrington, modified 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 12:59 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 12:59 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/7/14 Recent Posts
I have a feeling that, if a new book does come out, it will be a far different book from the one he would have written before all this came out. 

I do have a question about unification of mind: I don’t see this as a false teaching perse, just something that can never be done completely. But unification can occur with the mind becoming more concentrated. 
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Paul Anthony, modified 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 2:05 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/29/19 2:05 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 71 Join Date: 6/22/10 Recent Posts
Sincere question - could it be more helpful to look at these types of questions as ones of competence rather than ethics? Given the various diverse ethical perspectives that we see on the thread, and Chris' suggestion (shared by Kenneth Folk on Twitter, and others here) that we don't put anyone on an unrealistic ethical pedestal....  Compulsive self-destructive behaviour would seem to be a problem in an advanced meditation teacher b/c at the very least it speaks to a lack of psychological flexibility. Is there any purpose to an advanced dharma practice that doesn't modestly increase my ability to respond skillfully to difficult, compulsive private urges that lead me towards potential harm? It seems to me that this is not much of a pedestal (more like a low bar of basic competence- a bit like expecting a mechanic to know something about cars). I don't know for sure of course that Culadasa's behaviour was compulsive, or self destructive, but there are precedents (e.g. Trungpa). And so the concerns expressed here seem reasonable to me. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 8:46 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 8/30/19 8:46 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Paul Anthony:
Sincere question - could it be more helpful to look at these types of questions as ones of competence rather than ethics? Given the various diverse ethical perspectives that we see on the thread, and Chris' suggestion (shared by Kenneth Folk on Twitter, and others here) that we don't put anyone on an unrealistic ethical pedestal....  Compulsive self-destructive behaviour would seem to be a problem in an advanced meditation teacher b/c at the very least it speaks to a lack of psychological flexibility. Is there any purpose to an advanced dharma practice that doesn't modestly increase my ability to respond skillfully to difficult, compulsive private urges that lead me towards potential harm? It seems to me that this is not much of a pedestal (more like a low bar of basic competence- a bit like expecting a mechanic to know something about cars). I don't know for sure of course that Culadasa's behaviour was compulsive, or self destructive, but there are precedents (e.g. Trungpa). And so the concerns expressed here seem reasonable to me. 



It’s a valid question, but maybe it would be helpful to think of human development as something that occurs on different axes? Insight and morality are different trainings, as Daniel emphasizes. They could possibly benefit each other, but assuming that one would lead to the other seems very risky.
Tom C, modified 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 4:22 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 4:22 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

Posts: 37 Join Date: 8/13/19 Recent Posts
This is extremely interesting and feeds into other questions myself and others seem to have, that is mostly ignored or obfuscated. Can Daniel or something else who is 4th path clearly explain;

What exactly is the machanism that drives someone to pursue sex with prostitutes behind their wives back if not craving and delusion?

It makes no sense to talk about anything else in relation to Dharma. Can someone who is 4th path explain clearly and concisely what circumstances or mechanisms causes an Arhart to puruse sex in general, let alone with prositutes behind their wives back. 

One thing that is hard to reconcile is that the level of craving from the first glance must be _huge_ for somemone to to go and pursue these activities within these cirumstances. Most normal humans who never meditate seem to have less craving and more equanimity then a meditaiton master and self proclaimed arhat.

Ill add a disclose; Im 31 - have slept with hundreds of women including many prostitutes - so I can understand what it is John and his wife must be going through - I wish them both well in his recovery.
Edward, modified 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 4:57 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 4:56 AM

John Yates Misconduct

Posts: 129 Join Date: 6/10/19 Recent Posts
I agree this is an important question but it relies on assumption that John Yates is enlightened. That is not a given.
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Not two, not one, modified 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 5:31 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 5:31 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

Posts: 1038 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
Tom C:
This is extremely interesting and feeds into other questions myself and others seem to have, that is mostly ignored or obfuscated. Can Daniel or something else who is 4th path clearly explain;

What exactly is the machanism that drives someone to pursue sex with prostitutes behind their wives back if not craving and delusion?

It makes no sense to talk about anything else in relation to Dharma. Can someone who is 4th path explain clearly and concisely what circumstances or mechanisms causes an Arhart to puruse sex in general, let alone with prositutes behind their wives back. 

One thing that is hard to reconcile is that the level of craving from the first glance must be _huge_ for somemone to to go and pursue these activities within these cirumstances. Most normal humans who never meditate seem to have less craving and more equanimity then a meditaiton master and self proclaimed arhat.

Ill add a disclose; Im 31 - have slept with hundreds of women including many prostitutes - so I can understand what it is John and his wife must be going through - I wish them both well in his recovery.

So ... speaking an eternal beginner and somewhat incompetent.

Surely we would expect deeply liberated beings to be rather complicated people? If so, there probably aren't any simple explanations available.

Or, for a different answer. Sex is fun. And so is eating. Or washing. Or discussing the dharma. So why stop? Especially if you now appreciate it more, engage more from a place of love than need, and have improved sensation, better energy control, and much better care for others.

Or, for a different answer. Imagine owning a vintage metallic silver e-type jag. You cherish it, and cling to the idea of driving, and having the car wrecked would be like losing an arm, and when your cousin asks to drive you feel anger and jealously. You cling to it.  OR you hate the sight of it, you resent the gas costs and the repayments and the fact it led to you make some big mistakes in life. You have an aversion to it. Now imagine you neither cling to it, nor have an aversion. You can still drive it, and enjoy driving it, but without craving the drive, or missing it when you don't drive it. Perhaps you were fearful of driving because of social norms in your neighbourhood?  But now you realise those don't really matter so you can go out and do drag racing and burnouts and handbrake turns and all those other things, to your heart's content. Or not. It doesn't really matter that much.

Or, for a different answer. After liberation you have to deal with the sankharas that remain. The last step of transcental dependent arising is the "letting go of that very craving". You are liberated, but have the residue of self remainining - not just the fabrications of  body, mind and speech, but also the habits and patterns and reinforcement mechanisms that built you into the individual that was liberated. How much you have depends on how much you purified on the path. How much you keep depends on your choices about how to live in society.  You might retreat to a monastery, but then likely you have lots of dharma/monastery sankharas that fuel that. Or you might be a householder, so you have other householder stuff to deal with there. So even a liberated being has her or his shit to deal with, even as a monk. But that shit just doesn't stick like it did before. It's just a residue remaining of the torment you had before, that you have cured.

So ... why does it worry you Tom C?  What is the bit of your worldview that is being contradicted?  Asking from genuine interest, because I think the answer would be a really useful object of contemplation. 
Tom C, modified 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 6:07 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 6:07 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

Posts: 37 Join Date: 8/13/19 Recent Posts
curious:
Tom C:
This is extremely interesting and feeds into other questions myself and others seem to have, that is mostly ignored or obfuscated. Can Daniel or something else who is 4th path clearly explain;

What exactly is the machanism that drives someone to pursue sex with prostitutes behind their wives back if not craving and delusion?

It makes no sense to talk about anything else in relation to Dharma. Can someone who is 4th path explain clearly and concisely what circumstances or mechanisms causes an Arhart to puruse sex in general, let alone with prositutes behind their wives back. 

One thing that is hard to reconcile is that the level of craving from the first glance must be _huge_ for somemone to to go and pursue these activities within these cirumstances. Most normal humans who never meditate seem to have less craving and more equanimity then a meditaiton master and self proclaimed arhat.

Ill add a disclose; Im 31 - have slept with hundreds of women including many prostitutes - so I can understand what it is John and his wife must be going through - I wish them both well in his recovery.

So ... speaking an eternal beginner and somewhat incompetent.

Surely we would expect deeply liberated beings to be rather complicated people? If so, there probably aren't any simple explanations available.

Or, for a different answer. Sex is fun. And so is eating. Or washing. Or discussing the dharma. So why stop? Especially if you now appreciate it more, engage more from a place of love than need, and have improved sensation, better energy control, and much better care for others.

Or, for a different answer. Imagine owning a vintage metallic silver e-type jag. You cherish it, and cling to the idea of driving, and having the car wrecked would be like losing an arm, and when your cousin asks to drive you feel anger and jealously. You cling to it.  OR you hate the sight of it, you resent the gas costs and the repayments and the fact it led to you make some big mistakes in life. You have an aversion to it. Now imagine you neither cling to it, nor have an aversion. You can still drive it, and enjoy driving it, but without craving the drive, or missing it when you don't drive it. Perhaps you were fearful of driving because of social norms in your neighbourhood?  But now you realise those don't really matter so you can go out and do drag racing and burnouts and handbrake turns and all those other things, to your heart's content. Or not. It doesn't really matter that much.

Or, for a different answer. After liberation you have to deal with the sankharas that remain. The last step of transcental dependent arising is the "letting go of that very craving". You are liberated, but have the residue of self remainining - not just the fabrications of  body, mind and speech, but also the habits and patterns and reinforcement mechanisms that built you into the individual that was liberated. How much you have depends on how much you purified on the path. How much you keep depends on your choices about how to live in society.  You might retreat to a monastery, but then likely you have lots of dharma/monastery sankharas that fuel that. Or you might be a householder, so you have other householder stuff to deal with there. So even a liberated being has her or his shit to deal with, even as a monk. But that shit just doesn't stick like it did before. It's just a residue remaining of the torment you had before, that you have cured.

So ... why does it worry you Tom C?  What is the bit of your worldview that is being contradicted?  Asking from genuine interest, because I think the answer would be a really useful object of contemplation. 

Dear curious,

I understand attachement, which alot of your post deals with. Wherever there is attachment - delusion is also there.

Your reply deals with the content or actions of humans - I'm more interested into the mechanism behind these then the actions or the content themselves. I simply posit the question;

If free from craving, aversion & delusion... what is the mechanism or process that compels a human male into seeking prositutues behind their wives back? 

I myself and know many others who have seen plenty of prosititues - I am yet to find anyone that found it meaniful or easn't completely deluded around the whole process to due to craving, aversion and delusion. We aren't talking about subtle delusion or craving, aversion.. this is a big gross form.

Craving, aversion and delusion of what? Aversion to the current feelings and sensations that make up our experience... resulting in craving of pleasant sexual feelings and sensation....deluded that the pursuit of these feelings and sensations leads to anything but suffering (they are void, empty and dukkha).

Craving & aversion are interlinked - where you find one the other will always be, and where you cultivate one, automatically you cultivate the opposing.

I'm sorry if you feel my post comes acrossed as worried.. I can only affirm I'm not worried.. as in my original post I'd like a 4th path to comment on the mechanisms involved, for the sake of learning and discussing applicable pragmatic Dharma.
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Raving Rhubarb, modified 4 Years ago at 9/7/19 4:11 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 4:32 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

Posts: 73 Join Date: 7/5/18 Recent Posts
Tom C:

Your reply deals with the content or actions of humans - I'm more interested into the mechanism behind these then the actions or the content themselves. I simply posit the question;

If free from craving, aversion & delusion... what is the mechanism or process that compels a human male into seeking prositutues behind their wives back? 

I myself and know many others who have seen plenty of prosititues - I am yet to find anyone that found it meaniful or easn't completely deluded around the whole process to due to craving, aversion and delusion. We aren't talking about subtle delusion or craving, aversion.. this is a big gross form.

Craving, aversion and delusion of what? Aversion to the current feelings and sensations that make up our experience... resulting in craving of pleasant sexual feelings and sensation....deluded that the pursuit of these feelings and sensations leads to anything but suffering (they are void, empty and dukkha).
Maybe you are the one who is deluded and doesn't find it meaningful, and everyone else is having a lot of fun emoticon

(Hint: the process/mechanism is exactly the same one as before. The only difference is the reason why the Arahat does the prostitutes behind his wife's back. Normal people don't tell their wife because then she is angry at them. Arahats don't tell their wife out of compassion because they know that she would suffer if she knew.)
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Ward Law, modified 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 9:52 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 9:52 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

Posts: 123 Join Date: 9/7/15 Recent Posts
One thing that is hard to reconcile is that the level of craving from the first glance must be _huge_ for somemone to to go and pursue these activities within these cirumstances.

I question this conclusion, along with similar conclusions asserted in other posts.

First, we don't really know much about "these circumstances"; all we know is the general story alleged in the formal post, a story that Culadasa says is not entirely true. Or did I miss something? A few people are surely in possession of the sordid details, but I have yet to see them.

More importantly, we need to remember that there are at least two factors that influence the outcome of a potential sexual encounter: the degree of craving or lust, as you mentioned, and the degree of inhibition or self restraint. I suggest that, especially in the case of an old man such as Culadasa, the latter is much more significant. For what it's worth, Culadasa himself has been trying to tell us this. If we want to understand why meditation masters misbehave, I suggest that this is the avenue of investigation that will be most fruitful. 
Tom C, modified 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 9:58 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 9:58 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

Posts: 37 Join Date: 8/13/19 Recent Posts
Ward Law:
One thing that is hard to reconcile is that the level of craving from the first glance must be _huge_ for somemone to to go and pursue these activities within these cirumstances.

I question this conclusion, along with similar conclusions asserted in other posts.

First, we don't really know much about "these circumstances"; all we know is the general story alleged in the formal post, a story that Culadasa says is not entirely true. Or did I miss something? A few people are surely in possession of the sordid details, but I have yet to see them.

More importantly, we need to remember that there are at least two factors that influence the outcome of a potential sexual encounter: the degree of craving or lust, as you mentioned, and the degree of inhibition or self restraint. I suggest that, especially in the case of an old man such as Culadasa, the latter is much more significant. For what it's worth, Culadasa himself has been trying to tell us this. If we want to understand why meditation masters misbehave, I suggest that this is the avenue of investigation that will be most fruitful. 

Like said the circumstances/story/content are mostly irrelevant if the bare facts of an awakened being pursuing prositutes. The mechanism which cause them to pursue the aforementioned would contradict Dharma at first glance - that's why asking for clarificaiton from 4th path people - to give us more insight to genuinely how these events can happen - in relation to craving,aversion and delusion which shouldn't be present.

Degree of inhibition and self restrait would be equanimity to observe lust without reacting - that is without reacting with craving or aversion.

Can you have no equanimity and also no craving/aversion? 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 10:16 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 10:16 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I have seen cases of embarrassingly poor communication among professors in communication, deeply unethical behavior among ethicists, teachings in pedagogics that were extremely unpedagogical, sociology professors who refused to acknowledge that there is such a thing as gender discrimination, and so forth. That has never led me to question those research areas per se. Human beings are fallible and areas of expertise are broader than the competency of one individual. Why should awakening be so different? We need to be critical of bad behavior and structures that foster it and do our best to behave with both wisdom and compassion, but questioning the whole dharma every time somebody has poor judgement doesn’t make sense.

Another thing: why does this thread disappear and pop back again, over and over again?
Tom C, modified 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 10:59 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 10:54 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

Posts: 37 Join Date: 8/13/19 Recent Posts
Polly,

Thanks for the reply. Perhaps my questioning came across as loaded. I'm not talking or implying about standards we should hold John or anyone else to, or passing moral judgement on what he has done - I wish everyone involved a speedy healing.

I'm talking about Dharma - and hoping with advanced practitioners explore whether any other mechanism could cause someone 4th path to behave this way other then craving,aversion or delusion.

It then begs the question - is it then possible to have momentary periods of lack of equinimtiy once you reach 4th path or are there certain groups of sensations like lust and sexual pleasure that even at 4th path can override unskillful practitioners without previous practise? He might never have been exposed to such sensations/temptations in previous circumstances before 4th path (married/financially poor/good health). Perhaps lust and sexual temptation needs special training etc

I'm just opening dialogue around the Dharma, not around John himself.
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Siavash ', modified 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 12:41 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 12:41 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

Posts: 1679 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
I wonder why some people don't call him Culadasa anymore? Or why people wouldn't call him John, when he was the good guy and they were learning from him? Who gave him the name Culadasa, and why? And who is taking that name from him, and why?

I think some respect and dignity is missing here with this name calling thing.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 1:49 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 1:49 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Tom C:
Polly,

Thanks for the reply. Perhaps my questioning came across as loaded. I'm not talking or implying about standards we should hold John or anyone else to, or passing moral judgement on what he has done - I wish everyone involved a speedy healing.

I'm talking about Dharma - and hoping with advanced practitioners explore whether any other mechanism could cause someone 4th path to behave this way other then craving,aversion or delusion.

It then begs the question - is it then possible to have momentary periods of lack of equinimtiy once you reach 4th path or are there certain groups of sensations like lust and sexual pleasure that even at 4th path can override unskillful practitioners without previous practise? He might never have been exposed to such sensations/temptations in previous circumstances before 4th path (married/financially poor/good health). Perhaps lust and sexual temptation needs special training etc

I'm just opening dialogue around the Dharma, not around John himself.


That was exactly what I was addressing.
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 1:51 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 1:51 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

Posts: 5117 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
 ... is it then possible to have momentary periods of lack of equinimtiy once you reach 4th path or are there certain groups of sensations like lust and sexual pleasure that even at 4th path can override unskillful practitioners without previous practise? 

Obviously, yes.
Tom C, modified 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 4:49 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 4:49 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

Posts: 37 Join Date: 8/13/19 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
 ... is it then possible to have momentary periods of lack of equinimtiy once you reach 4th path or are there certain groups of sensations like lust and sexual pleasure that even at 4th path can override unskillful practitioners without previous practise? 

Obviously, yes.
Ah okay, I'm new to the forum, I assumed 4th path was the eradication of craving, aversion and delusion.

I've read Daniels definitions,  and they never talk in terms of the above, or rarely mention levels of suffering, they are very ambigious.
shargrol, modified 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 6:00 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 6:00 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 2345 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Tom C, have you read MCTB2 (https://www.mctb.org/)? Daniel actually does a pretty thorough job of talking about the various definitions... see: https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-v-awakening/37-models-of-the-stages-of-awakening/
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spatial, modified 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 6:13 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/5/19 6:13 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

Posts: 614 Join Date: 5/20/18 Recent Posts
Tom C:
It then begs the question - is it then possible to have momentary periods of lack of equinimtiy once you reach 4th path or are there certain groups of sensations like lust and sexual pleasure that even at 4th path can override unskillful practitioners without previous practise? He might never have been exposed to such sensations/temptations in previous circumstances before 4th path (married/financially poor/good health). Perhaps lust and sexual temptation needs special training etc

I'm just opening dialogue around the Dharma, not around John himself.
As far as I can tell, cats and dogs appear to be enlightened. I'm not sure what that says about people.
neko, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 3:42 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

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Tom C:

Can Daniel or something else who is 4th path clearly explain.

No. There is no commonly accepted definition of "4th path". If you go to the suttas, the definitions are full of contradictions, as well as supertitious crap.

Because of this, when Daniel says the words "4th path", and when Culadasa says the same words, they are talking about two completely different things. So we have two problems:

  • (1) Nothing that Daniel says on what he calls "4th path" can shed any light on what Culadasa means when he says "4th path", and
  • (2) nothing that Culadasa says on what he calls "4th path" can shed any light on what Daniel means when he says "4th path".

Actually, you can generalise these statements any two Buddhist meditation teachers X and Y:

  • (3) For all X and Y (with Y ≠ X), nothing that X says on what he calls "4th path" can shed any light on what Y means when he says "4th path".

Unfortunately, in the case of Culadasa, we have one additional problem:

  • (4) Not much of what Culadasa says on what he calls "4th path" appears to shed much if any light on what Culadasa means when he says "4th path",

as far I can tell, having braved through tens of hours of Culadasa talking about 4th path and making very little sense. In fact, Culadasa talks about what he calls "4th path" as

  • (i) Something that is related to ethics, behaviour, emotion, actions, and morality, and
  • (ii) something that he goes in and out of all the time.
Which is like saying I am vegetarian between meals or I never kick puppies except for the times when I do. By Culadasa's definition of arahantship, most people in the world are arahants (for much of the time, except when they aren't), and for all we know most people in the world might actually be arahants more often than Culadasa is.
Edward, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 4:02 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Nicely put Neko. Do you think  map consensus could in theory be achieved or that different practices, proclivities, inevitably lead to development across different axes?
neko, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 5:59 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Edward: I don't believe there will ever be any kind of consensus. 

The source material is irreparably flawed, internally contradictory, and it carries a burden of dogma and superstition, evolved through millennia of memetic selection in response to the needs of some of the darker sides of the human psyche that seeks non-answers and non-solutions to its issues, and you can't beat millennia of selection of stupidity with common sense, as experience has painfully shown time and again. But don't take me for a pessimist on this. Personally, I don't worry too much about it, since I don't identify as Buddhist (nor as Hindu, Christian, Jew, Muslim, and so on), and I am not at all interested in coming to a consensus with those who do.

What might be possible is building small communities that are well insulated from the bullshit and do stuff that is effective. Compare science: A large section of humanity still believes in all kinds of pseudoscientific bullshit (that vaccines cause autism, that there is no global warming, that magic sugar saves, that you can solve the antropocene crisis by getting guilt tripped for eating a hamburger by a sixteen year old girl with selective mutism)... nevertheless, a relatively small group of people actually do the science, and they do that simply by ignoring everybody else's irrational thinking, sticking to a logical, evidence-based, practical way of doing things, all the while being out there in the open, publishing their results for everyone to see, although it is very few who are actually willing and able to put in the time to understand what is being talked about.

Notice that I am not claiming that meditation is (or should be (or need be)) a science, which is a very complex issue. I am just saying that step one is giving up on the idea that you need to achieve the metaphorical equivalent of scientific consensus with flat earthers, and step two is not using words like "arahant", which is the metaphorical equivalent of not discussing transubstantiation when you build a synchrotron.

I understand Daniel's desire to re-appropriate that term, and I do sympathise with him, but I think that it is a huge waste of time and a losing proposition. I think he should just call it "full-blown non-dual non-agental non-central instantaneous perception", which rolls off the tongue really well, innit? At the most, he could add, as a footnote, that he believes that after you strip all the bullshit off the term "arahant", FBNDNANCIP is what you are actually left with, but even that is calling for a lot of confusion and wasted time, in my not-so-humble opinion.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 7:54 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Neko, I agree with most of what you are saying and you seem pretty brillant, but it also seems to me like you are using ”with selective mutism” as a way of diminishing someone’s credibility. I hope I misunderstood that.
neko, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 8:02 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Neko, I agree with most of what you are saying and you seem pretty brillant, but it also seems to me like you are using ”with selective mutism” as a way of diminishing someone’s credibility. I hope I misunderstood that.

Sixteen year olds have no credibility on global warming to begin with, there's really nothing to diminish. You know who has credibility on global warming? Climatologists. If Greta Thurnberg wishes to have credibility on global warming, she should pursue a PhD in physics.
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 8:06 AM
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... Greta Thurnberg... 

"Thunberg"   emoticon
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 8:14 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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neko:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Neko, I agree with most of what you are saying and you seem pretty brillant, but it also seems to me like you are using ”with selective mutism” as a way of diminishing someone’s credibility. I hope I misunderstood that.

Sixteen year olds have no credibility on global warming to begin with, there's really nothing to diminish. You know who has credibility on global warming? Climatologists. If Greta Thurnberg wishes to have credibility on global warming, she should pursue a PhD in physics.



So why did you add it? It seems like a rhetorical punchline.

I know who she is. I’m from Sweden too. I don’t know about where you come from, but here in Sweden 16-year-olds can’t pursue PhD:s, and making fun of kids is considered immature. And making fun of her autistic traits is pretty low (although unfortunately many people in Sweden do not realize that either).
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 8:23 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Look, you seem to be a good guy. I don’t think you meant any harm. It’s just... remarks like that are not as harmless and fun as they may seem to those who are not targeted. The abundance of them hurts a lot and contribute to harm.
Edward, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 8:40 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Despite lacking a PhD in climatology, I don't feel discouraged from protesting against my government's response to climate change. If my views were in opposition to the established science then that would be a problem. Right?
neko, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 9:00 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Edward:
Despite lacking a PhD in climatology, I don't feel discouraged from protesting against my government's response to climate change. If my views were in opposition to the established science then that would be a problem. Right?

The problem is that practically no one can name a single climate scientist and everyone knows who GT is because she has been on the first page of all newspaper non stop for what, a year now? Which goes to show the point I was trying to make, that science operates secluded from the opinions of kids, and practical meditation should operate secluded from the opinions of dogmatists.

Nothing more than that.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 11:37 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Edward:
Despite lacking a PhD in climatology, I don't feel discouraged from protesting against my government's response to climate change. If my views were in opposition to the established science then that would be a problem. Right?



Right.
neko, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 8:50 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Look, you seem to be a good guy. I don’t think you meant any harm. It’s just... remarks like that are not as harmless and fun as they may seem to those who are not targeted. The abundance of them hurts a lot and contribute to harm.


Look, you seem to be a good girl, but I wasn't targeting Greta Thunberg  (thanks Chris), I was targeting people who listen to climate scientists talking about heart surgery, people who listen to heart surgeons talking about quantum mechanics, people who listen to quantum physicists talking about Pokémons, and people who listen to little kids talking about climate science.

Luckily, climate scientists are still doing their thing without listening to what Greta Thunberg has to say on climate science, which is why we still have climate science, instead of some weird discussions about how climate science brings an end to suffering and makes you walk on water.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 11:38 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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I know you weren’t targeting Greta or other people with selective mutism, but the problem is that you used selective mutism as a pejorative, which contributes to and legitimizes harmful attitudes against autistic people. There are more worthy and less harmful ways to make your point. I’m not interested in picking a fight. I just hope that you find it in your heart to listen when I tell you that wordings like that hurt people who are already vulnerable.

I’m not a girl, by the way. I’m non-binary. But nevermind.
neko, modified 4 Years ago at 9/7/19 3:36 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/7/19 3:28 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I know you weren’t targeting Greta or other people with selective mutism, but the problem is that you used selective mutism as a pejorative, which contributes to and legitimizes harmful attitudes against autistic people.

This is extremely off topic and I am not sure why you are so obsessed on this, but I feel I have to answer because you are misrepresenting my views.

Anyway.

1. Do not put words into my mouth, not even indirectly. I never brought autism into the picture. (It is, in fact, as far as I understand, not possible to have both autism and selective mutism, according to the DSM-5. But this is besides the point. I did not bring autism up.)

2. Do not put words into my mouth. I was not using selective mutism as a pejorative. I was pointing to the way her selective mutism is used by all newspaper articles that mention it as a proxy for authority, the argument going more or less invariably as:

I. Greta Thunberg has selective mutism.

II. She only speaks about things she feels are important.

III. She speaks about climate change.

IV. Therefore, climate change is important.

Now, before you jump to conclusions again, and put words into my mouth again e.g. to the effect that I might be claiming that climate change is not important, which I am not, as I believe that climate change is important. What I am pointing out to is that the reason climate change is important is because climate scientist say that it is important, and not because a child with selective mutism who only talks about things she feels are important talks about climate change. Let me be even more explicit. What follows from (I-III) is not that climate change is important, what follows from those premises is that a child with selective mutism feels that climate change is important, which does not mean that it is. Attributing authority to a child on climate change because she has selective mutism is, again, like attributing authority to a heart surgeon on quantum mechanics because he likes Pokémon(s?).

I was, in other words, making a point that:

EXPERTISE > FEELINGS.

Which is, unsurprisingly, something that has to be spelled out step-by-step in the current political climate in which FEELS > REALS.

By the way, did I say do not misrepresent my views and do not to put words into my mouth?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/7/19 7:22 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/7/19 4:32 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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I said that I was hoping that I was misunderstanding you, and I’m really glad that I did - or rather, I’m really glad that you didn’t intend for the wordings to be a pejorative. My comment was an invitation to explain yourself. If you really believe that people give a child the status of an expert because of her selective mutism, then I can see that it was not a pejorative. You could have explained that directly, because that was not something I could have guessed, but it was probably similarly difficult for you to see what possible connotations your wordings had for people who do not share your taken-for-granted knowledge and assumptions. Thankyou for explaining it now! I’m very relieved that you are not one of the many people who use this kind of diagnosis to discredit people. Maybe it’s good to know that they often express themselves just like you did and really intend it as a pejorative (which becomes clear as the conversation continues), so if you don’t want to be mistaken for one of them it might be helpful to be more explicit about why you bring it up. This wouldn’t be a problem if the pejorative use of the wording weren’t so common, though. The fact that you didn’t even realize that it could be interpreted as a pejorative actually brings some hope about humanity. Therefore I’m grateful that you cleared that out.

Are newspapers really presenting her selective mutism as a merit? I have never seen that. I think you may have misunderstood that. Maybe they are just making the rhetorical point that at least some people have understood the urgency of the situation. That has nothing to do with merits, only personal priorities. Or maybe newspapers in your country are even worse than those in Sweden. I guess that’s a possibility. Still, the way you present it, it sounds like they are talking about personal priorities and try to make the point that, given the current situation and the scientific data available, more people should open their eyes and make the same prioritization.

Greta is autistic/aspie according to her herself (she is very open about it), the doctors that diagnosed her, and her mother who is an advocate for the rights of autistic people, but perhaps you know better. Or rather, perhaps the media think they know better (that’s more fair, since it is now clear that you are talking about media logic rather than actual diagnosis). The media logic that you are criticizing seems to have emphasized one part of Greta’s way of functioning and labelled it as selective mutism, but it is really part of her autistic wiring regardless of what they or you call it. I have autistic friends that are selective mutists at least in function, but they prefer to describe it as being non-verbal. I don’t know what description Greta prefers.

I apologize for my poor wording in the post where I explained explicitly how your wordings appeared to me. I should have phrased it as being about my interpretation and continued to ask for your reason to bring it up.
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Raving Rhubarb, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 4:25 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 4:21 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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neko:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Look, you seem to be a good guy. I don’t think you meant any harm. It’s just... remarks like that are not as harmless and fun as they may seem to those who are not targeted. The abundance of them hurts a lot and contribute to harm.


Look, you seem to be a good girl, but I wasn't targeting Greta Thunberg  (thanks Chris), I was targeting people who listen to climate scientists talking about heart surgery, people who listen to heart surgeons talking about quantum mechanics, people who listen to quantum physicists talking about Pokémons, and people who listen to little kids talking about climate science.

Luckily, climate scientists are still doing their thing without listening to what Greta Thunberg has to say on climate science, which is why we still have climate science, instead of some weird discussions about how climate science brings an end to suffering and makes you walk on water.

Look, you seem to be a good binary, but as a former Pokémon master in my last life, I have to disagree. There's no such thing as 'Pokémons', there's only Pokémon...


Thank you for bringing up 'selective mutism', though, I learned a new word today, although I'm not entirely sure why - maybe you were alluding to the possibility that Greta Thunderberg uses this feature as a sales pitch which is about as credible as writing a book about losing weight if your favourite colour is blue?

The source material is irreparably flawed, internally contradictory, and it carries a burden of dogma and superstition, evolved through millennia of memetic selection in response to the needs of some of the darker sides of the human psyche that seeks non-answers and non-solutions to its issues, and you can't beat millennia of selection of stupidity with common sense, as experience has painfully shown time and again. But don't take me for a pessimist on this. Personally, I don't worry too much about it, since I don't identify as Buddhist (nor as Hindu, Christian, Jew, Muslim, and so on), and I am not at all interested in coming to a consensus with those who do.

This sounds like you have a lot of aversion. You need to meditate more and have faith in the Buddha's teachings, then you can finally be liberated.

People who invest 1000s of hours in learning the Buddhas teachings and following the practices and then saying they're not Buddhists are like people who spend 1000 of hours studying different variants of tail call optimization and then say they're not nerds 

emoticon

Tom C, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 5:59 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

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neko:
Tom C:

Can Daniel or something else who is 4th path clearly explain.

No. There is no commonly accepted definition of "4th path". If you go to the suttas, the definitions are full of contradictions, as well as supertitious crap.

Because of this, when Daniel says the words "4th path", and when Culadasa says the same words, they are talking about two completely different things. So we have two problems:

  • (1) Nothing that Daniel says on what he calls "4th path" can shed any light on what Culadasa means when he says "4th path", and
  • (2) nothing that Culadasa says on what he calls "4th path" can shed any light on what Daniel means when he says "4th path".

Actually, you can generalise these statements any two Buddhist meditation teachers X and Y:

  • (3) For all X and Y (with Y ≠ X), nothing that X says on what he calls "4th path" can shed any light on what Y means when he says "4th path".

Unfortunately, in the case of Culadasa, we have one additional problem:

  • (4) Not much of what Culadasa says on what he calls "4th path" appears to shed much if any light on what Culadasa means when he says "4th path",

as far I can tell, having braved through tens of hours of Culadasa talking about 4th path and making very little sense. In fact, Culadasa talks about what he calls "4th path" as

  • (i) Something that is related to ethics, behaviour, emotion, actions, and morality, and
  • (ii) something that he goes in and out of all the time.
Which is like saying I am vegetarian between meals or I never kick puppies except for the times when I do. By Culadasa's definition of arahantship, most people in the world are arahants (for much of the time, except when they aren't), and for all we know most people in the world might actually be arahants more often than Culadasa is.
@Shargol thank you I read his descriptions
Thanks Neko, I enjoyed your post, both the content and tone emoticon

I will state - there seems to my eye be a huge disparity between the way Daniel and maybe others describe 4th Path and the reason why we are all here; suffering.

Daniels book from a quick scan doesn't talk in terms of suffering, the reduction or end of suffering, more a perceptual shift in reality, which somewhat ambiguously implies reduction in suffering, but isn't explicit or explain how so. In fact Daniel doesn’t seem to talk at all explicitly in terms of aversion, craving or suffering. Just the change in the way reality is perceived.

I can understand how hard it is to standardised goals and terminology. For me personally understanding a path or goals, it makes it easier to reference foremost reductions in craving, aversion (delusion), and suffering. Speaking outside of this framework leaves room for ambiguity and clarity on the goals we are all here to try to achieve.

Quite a contrast to the Buddha who explicitly spoke about suffering and the end of suffering.
neko, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 6:18 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

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Tom C:
@Shargol thank you I read his descriptions
Thanks Neko, I enjoyed your post, both the content and tone emoticon

emoticon


I will state - there seems to my eye be a huge disparity between the way Daniel and maybe others describe 4th Path and the reason why we are all here; suffering.

Daniels book from a quick scan doesn't talk in terms of suffering, the reduction or end of suffering, more a perceptual shift in reality, which somewhat ambiguously implies reduction in suffering, but isn't explicit or explain how so.

He actually does. The problem is that what Daniel means when he uses the word "suffering" and what you mean when you use it are, once again, two very different things. The "suffering" that you get rid of when you get into what Daniel calls 4th path is a kind of "suffering" you will never realise that you had until you see the world through that lens which does not have it. Which is why I add the "end of suffering" sales pitch to the list of things not to talk about. Much better descriptors of what can be attained are:

* Highly recommended, can't tell you why (Bill Hamilton).

* The Ultimate Duh (Daniel).

* That thing you're babbling on about, it ain't the real thing (Laozi).

* The suffering you will lose is not one you know you have (myself, I believe, unless I am plagiarising someone else).


In fact Daniel doesn’t seem to talk at all explicitly in terms of aversion, craving or suffering. Just the change in the way reality is perceived.
He does, but not very much, which is really rather wise I believe, since 'aversion', 'craving' and 'suffering' are really misleading words.



Quite a contrast to the Buddha who explicitly spoke about suffering and the end of suffering.

Yes, but don't forget that the Buddha is a collective pseudonym like Nicolas Bourbaki or, perhaps more appropriately, Alan Smithee. What was going on through the mind of the dude who signed himself as The Buddha when he wrote "end of suffering" is anyone's guess. Perhaps he was very depressed and even more hopeful. Or perhaps his monastery was not getting enough donations.
Tom C, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 6:25 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 6:25 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

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neko:
Tom C:
@Shargol thank you I read his descriptions
Thanks Neko, I enjoyed your post, both the content and tone emoticon

emoticon


I will state - there seems to my eye be a huge disparity between the way Daniel and maybe others describe 4th Path and the reason why we are all here; suffering.

Daniels book from a quick scan doesn't talk in terms of suffering, the reduction or end of suffering, more a perceptual shift in reality, which somewhat ambiguously implies reduction in suffering, but isn't explicit or explain how so. In fact Daniel doesn’t seem to talk at all explicitly in terms of aversion, craving or suffering. Just the change in the way reality is perceived.

He actually does. The problem is that what Daniel means when he uses the word "suffering" and what you mean when you use it are, once again, two very different things. The "suffering" that you get rid of when you get into what Daniel calls 4th path is a kind of "suffering" you will never realise that you had until see the world through a lens that does not have it. Which is why I add the "end of suffering" sales pitch to the list of things not to talk about. Much better descriptors of what can be attained are:

* Highly recommended, can't tell you why (Bill Hamilton).

* The Ultimate Duh (Daniel).

* That thing you're babbling on about, it ain't the real thing (Laozi).

* The suffering you will lose is not one you know you have (myself, I believe, unless I am plagiarising someone else).

Quite a contrast to the Buddha who explicitly spoke about suffering and the end of suffering.

Yes, but don't forget that the Buddha is a collective pseudonym like Nicolas Bourbaki or, perhaps more appropriately Alan Smithee. What was going on through the mind of the dude who signed himself as The Buddha when he wrote that is anyone's guess.

Neko, thanks for responding. I am not disagreeing with anything you wrote so please don't take as such, just seeking clarification in a way that might make sense to my mind.

The list of phrases you provided I find extremely ambiguous and slightly unhelpful. You are almost insuanating that what is reduced by reaching 4th path can't be explained or quantified. This is also seems extremely unhelpful let alone explain why someone should or would pursue it.

What exactly is reduced? Can anyone give concrete real world examples of how things would have been before or after 4th path - namely perception and reaction, and how suffering would have been in both cases so we can understand some sort of tangible difference.
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 7:31 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

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Tom C --

What exactly is reduced? Can anyone give concrete real world examples of how things would have been before or after 4th path - namely perception and reaction, and how suffering would have been in both cases so we can understand some sort of tangible difference.

"Reducing" anything is just the wrong way to think about this stuff. It's about understanding, having a deep grokking of how the mind works. When you reach certain junctures in your practice you will see more deeply into the process. Those peeks at the process are what people call "insight" and it is accumulating insight that leads to what people call "awakening." What's happening is not some automatic reduction in human capabilities - those are, by definition, human attributes. They don't magically disappear no matter how much insight we have or how awake we might become.

What CAN happen, but doesn't HAVE to happen, is that as we accumulate insight and awaken we can apply those insights to our own behavior, our own life and how we interact with the reality we find ourselves experiencing every second. If we're motivated to do that then we can change and improve our interactions.

You need to understand this because it's one of the motivating factors, for me it was THE motivating factor, to do and see this for yourself. You're not practicing meditation to become some kind of god-like figure, super-human, or a mystical creature. You're practicing to understand your humanity and the way your human mind operates at the very deepest level. This is why Daniel Ingram doesn't talk much about "reducing" capabilities. It's because awakened people are still people with personalities and varying desires to use their insights for the good of others.

If a dharma teacher makes awakening sound mythical and like there is some kind of automatic reduction in any human attribute, or like they have some secret sauce, formula or understanding that you need them and only them for, run away. Fast.

The tangible difference is in how deeply you understand your mind - this is usually called "wisdom." It's not a difference in what you can or can't do, but in what you can or can't see and understand.

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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 7:16 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

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BTW - I find the way this all gets described by lots of people extremely frustrating. I had that same frustration for years as I tried to figure this out. I get it. The level of jargon and bullshit one needs to get through is monumental and much of it is misleading in the extreme. I'm on the side of anyone who wants relatable, sensible and realistic explanations. That's one reason I point folks toward MCTB - it's the most sensible and realistic way to pick this stuff up. Following the path as taught by Daniel Ingram and Kenneth Folk was the one thing that worked for me, finally.
Tom C, modified 4 Years ago at 9/7/19 6:43 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/7/19 6:25 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

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Chris Marti:
Tom C --

What exactly is reduced? Can anyone give concrete real world examples of how things would have been before or after 4th path - namely perception and reaction, and how suffering would have been in both cases so we can understand some sort of tangible difference.

"Reducing" anything is just the wrong way to think about this stuff. It's about understanding, having a deep grokking of how the mind works. When you reach certain junctures in your practice you will see more deeply into the process. Those peeks at the process are what people call "insight" and it is accumulating insight that leads to what people call "awakening." What's happening is not some automatic reduction in human capabilities - those are, by definition, human attributes. They don't magically disappear no matter how much insight we have or how awake we might become.

What CAN happen, but doesn't HAVE to happen, is that as we accumulate insight and awaken we can apply those insights to our own behavior, our own life and how we interact with the reality we find ourselves experiencing every second. If we're motivated to do that then we can change and improve our interactions.

You need to understand this because it's one of the motivating factors, for me it was THE motivating factor, to do and see this for yourself. You're not practicing meditation to become some kind of god-like figure, super-human, or a mystical creature. You're practicing to understand your humanity and the way your human mind operates at the very deepest level. This is why Daniel Ingram doesn't talk much about "reducing" capabilities. It's because awakened people are still people with personalities and varying desires to use their insights for the good of others.

If a dharma teacher makes awakening sound mythical and like there is some kind of automatic reduction in any human attribute, or like they have some secret sauce, formula or understanding that you need them and only them for, run away. Fast.

The tangible difference is in how deeply you understand your mind - this is usually called "wisdom." It's not a difference in what you can or can't do, but in what you can or can't see and understand.


Thanks Chris,

I enjoyed this post. There however seems to be some preconceived notions regarding the idea that everyone looking to reduce suffering is also looking for constant Jhana bliss. This isn't the case.

Surely they're not mutually exclsusive. We can talk about reducing suffering - and also know that life isn't going to emotional bliss. It's seems irrational to think otherwise.

I think talking about what types of suffering, in what quantities, via what mechanisms is essential to disucssing Dharma. This is primarily how the Buddha spoke - it would make no sense to speak in other terms.

I know form my own practice and experience suffering is reduced - thats a fact - from identifiation with sensations and thought - the amount of thoughts or reactions you have (in the form of thought) substantially reduces - you suffer less frequantly with less intensity.

The only caveat being is the more you walk the path you suffer less, but are much more aware of any suffering that does arise.

If at each post mental induced suffering - isn't reduced - I'd posit it's not true insight or true Dharma. 


N.b. I whole heartedly agree that sitting thinking of an end goal of reducing suffering doesn't reduce any suffering - only following the process of practise and insight does - so the answer to all questions on the absolute level always points back to practise or noticing what makes up our sensatory experience.
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/7/19 2:31 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/7/19 2:31 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

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I know form my own practice and experience suffering is reduced - thats a fact - from identifiation with sensations and thought - the amount of thoughts or reactions you have (in the form of thought) substantially reduces - you suffer less frequantly with less intensity.

That's consistent with my view, Tom. Suffering (dissatisfaction, discomfort, etc.) can be reduced to the extent that one has the capability and motivation.
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svmonk, modified 4 Years ago at 9/7/19 8:26 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/7/19 8:26 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

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Right. Physical and emotional pain will never go away. The thing that does is identifying with it as "mine".
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Shaun Steelgrave, modified 4 Years ago at 9/7/19 8:35 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

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What about the cravings for prostitutes?
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svmonk, modified 4 Years ago at 9/8/19 7:37 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

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C'mon Shaun! If the guy's horny and he isn't getting it from his wife, what does it matter who he f***s? He's, what 70 and she's, what, in her late 60's? When women get to that age, sometimes they lose interest in sex, even though men don't. If he didn't and she did then there is a problem in the relationship that they need to talk about. That's not the issue. The issue is that he lied to his wife rather than talk with her about it and misrepresented himself to his sangha and to the world. He didn't take a vow of celebacy after all.

Compared to the the Sakyong, former head of the Shambala lineage, Culadasa's a saint. The Sakyong's been accused of beating up and raping his female students and after the allegations were raised, he discretely departed to India for a period of "reflection and meditation" (I wonder if the US and India have an extradition treaty?). Similarly with the recently departed Sogyal Rimpoche (Sogyal Rimpoche died  week before last). According to his obituary in the NY Times, Sogyal beat up his male attendent and threw food at him when he was having problems with his girlfriends (plural). Nobody has accused Culadasa of that level of inappropriate and even illegal behavior. Culadasa just behaved like a normal, flawed human being.

Anyway, I kind of wish this thread would die.
Adam, modified 4 Years ago at 9/8/19 8:09 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/8/19 7:44 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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The tricky part with explaining exactly what is reduced is that the primary mechanism is the reduction of Avidyā https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avidy%C4%81_(Buddhism), i.e. lack of knowing the nature of reality (and theoretically, ultimately the complete removal of suffering caused by not knowing). Because not knowing is the problem, any attempt to convey how and what suffering arises from not-knowing is actually exactly the same as attempting to covey what enlightenment is, so you just end up back where you started, only now with a little more suffering arising from trying to make logical sense of something that can only really be understood by direct experience, because to understand it is the same thing as to attain it.
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JohnM, modified 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 5:27 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 5:27 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Considering my personal involvement with Sogyal, Culadasa, and a number of other teachers accused of varying degrees of misconduct and/or abuse over the decades, I was moved to write the following. If it helps even one person sidestep the costly mistakes I've made through my own ignorance of cult structures and manipulators, it will have been worth the effort.

--

SPIRITUAL FASCISM

As a forty-year veteran of exposure to multiple cult-like communities that in one way or another were exploited by leadership and a peer-enabled/enforced culture of pathological dishonesty, I've identified three core motivations of followers who continue to show deference to dishonest leaders, and who refuse to cut their losses in the face of mounting evidence of lying and corruption by those leaders.

These three motivators are:

1. An honest desire to seek awakening to help oneself and others, subverted by head-in-the-sand spiritual bypassing.
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE CORPSES.
2. A desperate need for approval and validation from a charismatic or cleverly sympathetic, parent-like figure.
THIS IS THE ENGINE THAT DRIVES CULTS.
3. A selfish determination to acquire "THE ANSWER" to life's complexities, so as to patent and market it to exploit and dominate others for perceived personal gain. (Actually, the greatest personal loss - but this is not apparent to these sociopaths.)
THESE ARE THE SPIRITUAL FASCISTS.

As a serious spiritual seeker with decades of field experience, I suggest that all practitioners with the heart for actual learning study our own motivations, and create a pie chart representing the proportional relationships between these three motivating forces over time in one's own involvements and those of one's community of peers and leaders, to better understand the extent to which cultish tendencies are being permitted to gain ascendancy in ourselves and our communities.

https://www.meta-chart.com/pie#/display

And then to ask ourselves the following questions, as if our lives depended on it. (They do - my hope is to help others avoid my own costly mistakes in permitting unscrupulous operators to rob me of my assets and relationships and decades of my life that I can never get back.) Ask yourselves:

Does the membership condone dishonesty or gaslighting by leadership or the group as a whole? Are control of personal assets and relationships usurped by leadership? Do leaders enjoy (I would argue: suffer from - Vajra Hell) a lack of transparency that holds them beyond accountability that the lowest member or outsider might be subject to? Are hazing and bullying praised as "tough love" or "training"?

These are hallmarks of an abusive cult. May I never again permit/enable unscrupulous narcissists and sociopaths to define me or my ethics. May I never concede stewardship of my own reality and good conscience to anyone - especially those whose actions are not in accord with their own self-proclaimed values.

Leaders who lie to their followers do not deserve to be coddled or respected. They should be shown the door with extreme prejudice. They have betrayed the ultimate obligation of a teacher: to put the  well-being of their students first.

May we all be free of leaders who espouse compassion and sustainability as they frack the very communities they purport to serve.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 5:41 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 5:41 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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That’s a powerful post. I’m so sorry for what you have gone through!

I’m starting to think that maybe it’s a blessing that I haven’t got somewhere to go to for my practice on a regular basis but do almost all of it in the safety of my own home, alone, with a very diverse and outspoken online community as my teacher.
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JohnM, modified 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 5:54 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 5:54 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Thank you Linda "Polly Ester" Ö.

I would envy you if it weren't for the bona fide bodhisattvas I have also personally encountered along the way. Who are these? My presence here gives you a strong hint as to my perceptions of some of those luminaries of the bodhisphere.

xo John
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 8:48 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 8:48 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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JohnM:
Thank you Linda "Polly Ester" Ö.

I would envy you if it weren't for the bona fide bodhisattvas I have also personally encountered along the way. Who are these? My presence here gives you a strong hint as to my perceptions of some of those luminaries of the bodhisphere.

xo John


Yeah, there really are good people out there too, not least here.
shargrol, modified 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 9:09 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 9:04 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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JohnM:
Thank you Linda "Polly Ester" Ö.

I would envy you if it weren't for the bona fide bodhisattvas I have also personally encountered along the way. Who are these? My presence here gives you a strong hint as to my perceptions of some of those luminaries of the bodhisphere.

xo John

Be careful of believing your perceptions of luminaries --- it could turn into the same basic problem of looking beyond yourself. Buddha is your _own_ mind, so to speak. 

"I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos."


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.045.than.html

Edward, modified 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 10:32 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 10:32 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Parletre on samatha as a potential cause of sexual misconduct followed by a response by Daniel.
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JohnM, modified 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 11:34 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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shargrol:

Be careful of believing your perceptions of luminaries --- it could turn into the same basic problem of looking beyond yourself. Buddha is your _own_ mind, so to speak. 


Thank you for that timely reminder. Much appreciated!
shargrol, modified 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 8:24 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 5:58 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Awesome post (Spiritual Fascism), thanks JohnM!
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 6:49 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 6:49 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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JohnM,

Thank you for providing us with the benefit of your long (and painful) experience. This is what true adults do - they learn from mistakes and help others avoid making them.
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JohnM, modified 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 11:32 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 11:32 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Thank you Chris,

There is a definite sense of unpacking and decoding the dynamics that make us humans so easily fall into these patterns. The hope that this information will help myself and others avoid these patterns in the future gives me a great deal of comfort and sense of purpose in all this.

Your thoughtful words are very heartening.

J
neko, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 7:32 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 7:22 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

Posts: 762 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
Tom C:
The list of phrases you provided I find extremely ambiguous and slightly unhelpful.

Yes, they are! But at least they are not misleading, lies, or manipulative sales pitches, which is worse. If you can do better than what I have done, I am all ears. emoticon

And thanks for the "unhelpful" bit, which I consider a compliment, since the dao that can be talked about is not the real dao*, and hence, if I said something that sounds helpful, it would actually be a red herring. emoticon



Tom C:
You are almost insuanating that what is reduced by reaching 4th path can't be explained or quantified.

Totally.




Tom C:
This is also seems extremely unhelpful let alone explain why someone should or would pursue it.

So you believe that something more helpful can be said. Awesome! What is that? I'd love to hear it.



Tom C:
What exactly is reduced? Can anyone give concrete real world examples of how things would have been before or after 4th path - namely perception and reaction, and how suffering would have been in both cases so we can understand some sort of tangible difference.

In my not-so-humble opinion, trying to practice to attain a reduction in, let alone an elimination of, suffering is very counterproductive, so I would suggest to just drop that idea, and instead take a good look at how your perceptions work, including that thing that you call suffering, which can certainly be investigated in extreme painstaking detail, down to the micro-moment and the micro-location, which is certainly a very useful thing to do.

__________

* I am not a daoist either.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 8:08 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 8:08 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Afllegations

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neko:

* Highly recommended, can't tell you why (Bill Hamilton).

* The Ultimate Duh (Daniel).

* That thing you're babbling on about, it ain't the real thing (Laozi).

* The suffering you will lose is not one you know you have (myself, I believe, unless I am plagiarising someone else).


That’s good enough for me.
shargrol, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 6:40 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 6:24 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Hah, I _love_ it Neko! 

Tom C, my goodness... it's very very very very clear that Daniel talks about reduction of suffering throughout the book. (https://www.mctb.org/?s=suffering) Right?

It seems like you are really focused on the supposed end state (4th path) rather than the entire domain that preceeds it, which is really where the good stuff is. Neko's rant comes into play here: of course a very simple idealized description of complete and total enlightenment --- the buddha has perfect perception, perfect thinking, perfect emotions, perfect behavior, and no suffering --- is easy to understand and sounds awesome and would be the marketing campaign for the religion founded on the buddha. But the real interesting stuff comes from reading the suttas with a critical mind, picking up on all the curiousities that still exist within the texts and a much more interesting picture emerges. And if you supplement the study of buddhism with the study of other meditative traditions... a VERY interesting perspective emerges.

But most of all, it's our own personal practice that matters... so all of this dogma debate is pretty worthless in the big scheme of things.


In a sense the question is not the abstract question "Can an arahat do (insert bad thing}?" which is a completely abstract question. The important question is "In this real world, can you simply trust that someone who can describe dharma well and hints that she/he is a arahat to be honest and to look out for everyone else's best interest?"  Can you ever turn over trust in that way? Hell, no. For a number of reasons, but mostly because it really doesn't matter how erudite and elegant a person speaks, nor what titles they give themselves or others give them. Every cult in the world starts with wishful thinking and a subtle desire to regress to a child-like pseudo-innocence where we turn over personal power to someone else. 

In a sense the other question is "Are these practice good at all if some/all the advanced practioners are such fuck ups?" Again, this goes back to the point that it's our own personal practice that matters. If it helps us, it's good stuff. If it doesn't help us, it's not worth our time. If it only seems to help someone else, but they wind up being a fuck-up... well that's their problem. (It's only when we want to defend the practices/religion as part of our identity that other people's problems with practice/religion will bother us.)
Tom C, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 6:30 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 6:30 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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shargrol:
Hah, I _love_ it Neko! 

Tom C, my goodness... it's very very very very clear that Daniel talks about reduction of suffering throughout the book. (https://www.mctb.org/?s=suffering) Right?

It seems like you are really focused on the supposed end state (4th path) rather than the entire domain that preceeds it, which is really where the good stuff is. Neko's rant comes into play here: of course a very simple idealized description of complete and total enlightenment --- the buddha has perfect perception, perfect thinking, perfect emotions, perfect behavior, and no suffering --- is easy to understand and sounds awesome and would be the marketing campaign for the religion founded on the buddha. But the real interesting stuff comes from reading the suttas with a critical mind, picking up on all the curiousities that still exist within the texts and a much more interesting picture emerges. And if you supplement the study of buddhism with the study of other meditative traditions... a VERY interesting perspective emerges.

But most of all, it's our own personal practice that matters... so all of this dogma debate is pretty worthless in the big scheme of things.

Hi Shargol,

Unfortunately for me (perhaps it's my mind) I don't get clear conscise definitions of what exactly is reduced and in what quantity from Daniels book. As said I find it ambigious. I'm sorry if my line of question is frustrating.

Forgive my questions, I'm new and trying to gain an understanding into the community. It doesn't make any tangible difference to my practice, am just simply trying to gain an understanding.
shargrol, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 6:46 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 6:42 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Tom, looks like you replied to my post as I was editing it. Anyway, no worries. emoticon

As far as trying to understand "the community" --- it's the wierdest collection of un-alike individuals as you will ever stumble across!  emoticon
Tom C, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 7:26 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 7:26 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 37 Join Date: 8/13/19 Recent Posts
shargrol:
In a sense the question is not the abstract question "Can an arahat do (insert bad thing}?" which is a completely abstract question. The important question is "In this real world, can you simply trust that someone who can describe dharma well and hints that she/he is a arahat to be honest and to look out for everyone else's best interest?"  Can you ever turn over trust in that way? Hell, no. For a number of reasons, but mostly because it really doesn't matter how erudite and elegant a person speaks, nor what titles they give themselves or others give them. Every cult in the world starts with wishful thinking and a subtle desire to regress to a child-like pseudo-innocence where we turn over personal power to someone else. 

In a sense the other question is "Are these practice good at all if some/all the advanced practioners are such fuck ups?" Again, this goes back to the point that it's our own personal practice that matters. If it helps us, it's good stuff. If it doesn't help us, it's not worth our time. If it only seems to help someone else, but they wind up being a fuck-up... well that's their problem. (It's only when we want to defend the practices/religion as part of our identity that other people's problems with practice/religion will bother us.)


Shargol,

For sake of clarity I never asked 'Can an Arhart do bad things'. I just asked what potential mechanism could cause an 4th path to do certain behaviours.

I'll try to clarify my stance and my intentions:

I don't actually care about labels apart from them making conversation easier when standardised and clearly defined. I also have no predefined expectation of what 4th path should or shouldn't be. I am just confused as to how a 4th Path person suffers, at what level is it reduced and in what way - in a clearly defined tangible explanation.

Like previously disclaimed it could and probably just be the way my mind works - but to my mind its clear at all what quantity, under what circumstances, via which mechanisms suffering is reduced.

It seems way more 'Some suffering is reduced some of time. What type of suffering, how much and which amount of time we cant tell you -  but you should go do it' - doesnt seem very helpful.
Edward, modified 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 7:49 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/6/19 7:49 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 129 Join Date: 6/10/19 Recent Posts
Tom C:


It seems way more 'Some suffering is reduced some of time. What type of suffering, how much and which amount of time we cant tell you -  but you should go do it' - doesnt seem very helpful.


https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/7699341#_19_message_7838274
shargrol, modified 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 6:11 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 6:09 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Tom C:


Shargol,

For sake of clarity I never asked 'Can an Arhart do bad things'. I just asked what potential mechanism could cause an 4th path to do certain behaviours.

I'll try to clarify my stance and my intentions:

I don't actually care about labels apart from them making conversation easier when standardised and clearly defined. I also have no predefined expectation of what 4th path should or shouldn't be. I am just confused as to how a 4th Path person suffers, at what level is it reduced and in what way - in a clearly defined tangible explanation.

Like previously disclaimed it could and probably just be the way my mind works - but to my mind its clear at all what quantity, under what circumstances, via which mechanisms suffering is reduced.

It seems way more 'Some suffering is reduced some of time. What type of suffering, how much and which amount of time we cant tell you -  but you should go do it' - doesnt seem very helpful.

I've been wanting to reply to this post... but it's sort of a self-defeating question. "What mechanism causes a 4th path person to do things" but "no predefined exectation of what 4th path should or shouldn't be".  In my mind, those two statements kind of cancel each other out. 

(And in the context of this thread, it assumes/implies that Culadasa was 4th path.)

But my best guess is that you would find the progress of adult development described in Cook-Greuter's ego development theory (https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/wiki/resources-reading#wiki_cook-greuter.27s_ego_development_theory) really interesting. It talks about the way that suffering is reduced with adult development. It also describes how each stage of progress has it's own blindspots and limitations.

The tricky thing about talking about the universe of meditation stuff is not only are there a million different practices, but they effect they have differs from person to person. Like "exercise" which makes us stronger and more capable through tearing down muscles and patterning movement, "meditation" makes us more clear minded and adaptable by tearing down limiting concepts and patterning behaviors.
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 6:44 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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... it assumes/implies that Culadasa was 4th path.

Oh gosh, you went there.

emoticon


Tom C, modified 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 8:22 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 8:20 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 37 Join Date: 8/13/19 Recent Posts
shargrol:
Tom C:


Shargol,

For sake of clarity I never asked 'Can an Arhart do bad things'. I just asked what potential mechanism could cause an 4th path to do certain behaviours.

I'll try to clarify my stance and my intentions:

I don't actually care about labels apart from them making conversation easier when standardised and clearly defined. I also have no predefined expectation of what 4th path should or shouldn't be. I am just confused as to how a 4th Path person suffers, at what level is it reduced and in what way - in a clearly defined tangible explanation.

Like previously disclaimed it could and probably just be the way my mind works - but to my mind its clear at all what quantity, under what circumstances, via which mechanisms suffering is reduced.

It seems way more 'Some suffering is reduced some of time. What type of suffering, how much and which amount of time we cant tell you -  but you should go do it' - doesnt seem very helpful.

I've been wanting to reply to this post... but it's sort of a self-defeating question. "What mechanism causes a 4th path person to do things" but "no predefined exectation of what 4th path should or shouldn't be".  In my mind, those two statements kind of cancel each other out. 

(And in the context of this thread, it assumes/implies that Culadasa was 4th path.)

But my best guess is that you would find the progress of adult development described in Cook-Greuter's ego development theory (https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/wiki/resources-reading#wiki_cook-greuter.27s_ego_development_theory) really interesting. It talks about the way that suffering is reduced with adult development. It also describes how each stage of progress has it's own blindspots and limitations.

The tricky thing about talking about the universe of meditation stuff is not only are there a million different practices, but they effect they have differs from person to person. Like "exercise" which makes us stronger and more capable through tearing down muscles and patterning movement, "meditation" makes us more clear minded and adaptable by tearing down limiting concepts and patterning behaviors.

Hi Shargol,

You can read those two statements as; 'I have no personal criteria or opinion on what standard the term 4th Path should encompass - or what can be achieved at 4th path, realistic or unrealistic. However, from my understanding of Culadasa he alluded to have removed craving/aversion & delusion if not completely to at least a very high level'

I guess my theorem is this - to pursue prosititutes behind your wifes back using money for your cancer fund you must either;

1) Be completely deluded to the truth that pursuing this leads to suffering for yourself and others - and must have high level of craving/aversion/delusion present 

2) A physcopath - having no delusion, craving, or aversion you decide to pursue the aforementioned for no discernbile reasons. This is akin to being of sound mental health, free of self harm compulsions - then picking up a knife and stabbing yourself in your hand for no reason - this would also be quite physcopathic behaviour

The above is just a loose theorem no doubt both or incorrect and untrue (or maybe a mixture of both) - the truth we will never know
shargrol, modified 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 8:59 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 8:36 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Tom C:


I guess my theorem is this - to pursue prosititutes behind your wifes back using money for your cancer fund you must either;

1) Be completely deluded to the truth that pursuing this leads to suffering for yourself and others - and must have high level of craving/aversion/delusion present 

2) A physcopath - having no delusion, craving, or aversion you decide to pursue the aforementioned for no discernbile reasons. This is akin to being of sound mental health, free of self harm compulsions - then picking up a knife and stabbing yourself in your hand for no reason - this would also be quite physcopathic behaviour

The above is just a loose theorem no doubt both or incorrect and untrue (or maybe a mixture of both) - the truth we will never know


Sure that makes sense. (Except you are saying it in a very binary way (all or nothing). He could have been somewhat deluded, have had some level of greed/addiction -- you know what I mean?)

Seems like some lighter version of #1 is most likely, but we'll see. We don't really know much, so most of what's happening we are all kinda projecting our anxieties into the situation. But I suspect we will know at some point. He wasn't living in some compound on an island in Borneo, there are plenty of people who interacted with him, worked with him... so I'll bet more information will eventually see the light of day. 

By the way, the article I linked to is _really_ good. Highly recommended!
Monsoon Frog, modified 4 Years ago at 9/10/19 1:51 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/10/19 1:15 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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shargrol:

I've been wanting to reply to this post... but it's sort of a self-defeating question. "What mechanism causes a 4th path person to do things" but "no predefined exectation of what 4th path should or shouldn't be".  In my mind, those two statements kind of cancel each other out. 

(And in the context of this thread, it assumes/implies that Culadasa was 4th path.)

But my best guess is that you would find the progress of adult development described in Cook-Greuter's ego development theory (https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/wiki/resources-reading#wiki_cook-greuter.27s_ego_development_theory) really interesting. It talks about the way that suffering is reduced with adult development. It also describes how each stage of progress has it's own blindspots and limitations.


From my recollection Cook-Greuter's ego development theory doesn’t appear to describe development in the terms that Buddhism, whether pragmatic or orthodox, often presents it. IIRC Cook-Greuter’s theory states that no matter how far one has progressed in ego development one still contains all the previous lower stages of development and can easily revert to them depending on circumstance. For example, one reaches the highest stage of ego development but then undergoes some stressful event which results in one relating to the world in a manner consistent with a much lower stage of development. 

The difference is that individuals are limited by the highest stage they have reached … one who has reached a higher stage of ego development will have access to that higher stage (presumably as a baseline?) whereas that higher stage will be completely inaccessible to those at lower stages of ego development. Nonetheless, the individual with a higher stage of development may respond to circumstances from any lower stage down the chain resulting in access to the higher stages becoming occluded.  The stages in this model are thus less stable than many Buddhist models of development/enlightenment.

A very heavy stressor comes along with powerful triggers and presumably someone of the highest ego development can become infantilized (to use an exaggerated example).

I do recall a post some years ago from Daniel reporting on his being sick (maybe it was the flu?) and his reflections on how a simple illness completely ravaged and rattled his state of mind, threw off his mental balance, and converted it into something very much grosser than the baseline he was used to. 

People invariably want irreversible transformation. 
They don't want to put in all the hard work to attain unitive stages of development only to have it invert on them and they're suddenly reacting to life like a teenager.
It may not be popular but there seems to be a place for fragility ... and not thoroughly buried in the footnotes? 
shargrol, modified 4 Years ago at 9/10/19 5:53 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Good addition Moonsong Frog. The theory definitely does not suggest people become more and more perfect, but rather more and more developed --- and each stage can have pathologies within the stage and there is always movement between the stages (either "reverting"/regression or simply "using" the previous worldviews -- going to earlier stages can be appropriate, not always pathological).

So in the model it's possible to be:
* A fairly less developed adult but who is morally good within that context.
* A fairly advanced adult that pathlogically uses their worldview to cause harm.
* A fairly advanced adult that is under such stress that they regress to previous stages.
* A fairly advanced adult that adopts the worldview/behavior of a lower stage but doesn't regress into that worldview.
etc.

Lots of possiblities. And fairly descriptive of the world to me.
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/10/19 6:30 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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People invariably want irreversible transformation. They don't want to put in all the hard work to attain unitive stages of development only to have it invert on them and they're suddenly reacting to life like a teenager.

It may not be popular but there seems to be a place for fragility ... and not thoroughly buried in the footnotes? 

Well said, Monsoon Frog! Another riff on my own recurring theme - people will be people, no matter what.

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/11/19 1:25 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Monsoon Frog:


From my recollection Cook-Greuter's ego development theory doesn’t appear to describe development in the terms that Buddhism, whether pragmatic or orthodox, often presents it. IIRC Cook-Greuter’s theory states that no matter how far one has progressed in ego development one still contains all the previous lower stages of development and can easily revert to them depending on circumstance. For example, one reaches the highest stage of ego development but then undergoes some stressful event which results in one relating to the world in a manner consistent with a much lower stage of development. 

The difference is that individuals are limited by the highest stage they have reached … one who has reached a higher stage of ego development will have access to that higher stage (presumably as a baseline?) whereas that higher stage will be completely inaccessible to those at lower stages of ego development. Nonetheless, the individual with a higher stage of development may respond to circumstances from any lower stage down the chain resulting in access to the higher stages becoming occluded.  The stages in this model are thus less stable than many Buddhist models of development/enlightenment.

A very heavy stressor comes along with powerful triggers and presumably someone of the highest ego development can become infantilized (to use an exaggerated example).

I do recall a post some years ago from Daniel reporting on his being sick (maybe it was the flu?) and his reflections on how a simple illness completely ravaged and rattled his state of mind, threw off his mental balance, and converted it into something very much grosser than the baseline he was used to. 

People invariably want irreversible transformation. 
They don't want to put in all the hard work to attain unitive stages of development only to have it invert on them and they're suddenly reacting to life like a teenager.
It may not be popular but there seems to be a place for fragility ... and not thoroughly buried in the footnotes? 


This is excellent. Thankyou for a great post!
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Griffin, modified 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 7:42 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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If I understand MCTB correctly, awakening (wisdom training) removes fundamental suffering, fundamental craving and fundamental delusion. "Ordinary" suffering and craving are related to morality training.

On the other hand, in traditional Buddhism, craving/delusion is considered to be the root of ALL suffering. I.e. if there is ANY suffering, there must be some craving behind it (a desire that reality is different than it is).

This is the most interesting question to me: how to explain the difference between these two views (pragmatic dharma vs traditional dharma)?

It's easy to just say that Culadasa's love life is a matter of morality training and has nothing to do with wisdom. However, why both "fundamental craving" and "ordinary craving" have the word "craving" in them if they are two totally unrelated and distinct processes? There must be some kind of deeper explanation.

By "deeper explanation", I mean something like this (this is not my definitive opinion, just an example of a possible explanation):

SPIDER MODEL OF AWAKENING


Delusion & fundamental craving are indeed source of all suffering. However, not in the sense: "In every instance of suffering, there would be no suffering if there were no fundamental craving/delusion", but in this sense: "All patterns of everyday craving&suffering (sankharas) have been initially developed on the basis of fundamental craving/delusion; however, sankharas continue to run automatically even if we remove their original root.”

Babies have an inborn (rudimentary) sense of separate self (for evolutionary reasons), and this delusion is like a spider that makes a web of sankharas (ordinary suffering). (If babies were born without this fundamental instinctive delusion, there would have no suffering, but they would be also be incapable for living.) Arahatship is "full awakening" in the sense that it destroys the "spider", but the web is still there (you cannot delete thousands of neural pathways with one strike). In traditional ideal, "full awakening" also means destroying the whole web. However, there are several problems with this - firstly, it may be impossible to ever remove the whole web. Secondly, even if possible, it is questionable whether that should be our goal. Maybe it’s the goal of classical “sutrayana” – complete renunciation, permanent cessation, parinirvana – in other words, nonexistence. “Skillful web” (without a spider) may be an alternative spiritual goal, more suitable for modern times and compassionate paradigm.

 
Here’s an alternative, opposite explanation:

SECONDARY SUFFERIG MODEL


According to this model, babies are born without any sense of self. Conceptualization that occurs during growing up creates the delusion of self and “fundamental suffering”. So, “fundamental suffering” is not actually “fundamental” – it’s just a secondary layer of suffering, a consequence of conceptualization during early childhood development. Awakening is just cleaning this unnecessary layer of craving/suffering. Babies and animals are already in an awakened state. An awakened person, therefore, is susceptible to all forms of ordinary craving and suffering, just like baby is.
 
What do you think? Which model is correct? Neither?
PS Everything I said might be just a load of horsesh*t. But I am happy to learn from my mistakes.
 
shargrol, modified 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 4:04 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 8:50 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Griffin:

SPIDER MODEL OF AWAKENING

SECONDARY SUFFERIG MODEL



What do you think? Which model is correct? Neither?

 

I think it's developmental. Babies have no self, but there are urges. Following their urges, toddlers develop a self. As language develops, they learn and engage in constant self-narration/self-talk. ("I put this box on this box. I walk now. I am hungry.") That self-talk and pure emotionality becomes our early sense of self. Teenagers and adults develop refinements on the narrative self by expanding categories of thought and complexity of thought, while developing distance from purely reactive emotionality, but still have the core "narrator/observer". Pretty much all of adult life is about developing and protecting a superior sense of self, for all the benefits and suffering it brings.

Meditation puts the spotlight on inner experience as an experience, which in a sense turns it into an outer experience. Maladaptive self strategies become really obvious (like trying to be "100% good" or supressing emotions, or denying our acutal ambitions) and get refined, spurring adult development. 

Eventually the effort involved in reflexively holding and protecting a sense of self becomes more obvious, along with developing a familiaritywith "the void" when no selfing occurs. It's sloppy to say this, but you could say that enlightenment is basically being okay with a sense of self coming and going, without feeling fear of annilation, along with the other associated maturation that occurs during the road to enlightenment. 

That Cook-Greuter article argues quite pursuasively for this view.
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spatial, modified 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 8:51 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Griffin:

SECONDARY SUFFERIG MODEL


According to this model, babies are born without any sense of self. Conceptualization that occurs during growing up creates the delusion of self and “fundamental suffering”. So, “fundamental suffering” is not actually “fundamental” – it’s just a secondary layer of suffering, a consequence of conceptualization during early childhood development. Awakening is just cleaning this unnecessary layer of craving/suffering. Babies and animals are already in an awakened state. An awakened person, therefore, is susceptible to all forms of ordinary craving and suffering, just like baby is.

I suspect that this model is closer to how it works. I think that the stages of awakening are about breaking up deeper and deeper levels of conceptualization. So, I think traditional understandings of Buddhism are a bit misguided. But, I'm not advanced enough to know for sure. Maybe an arahat can weigh in...
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Stirling Campbell, modified 4 Years ago at 9/11/19 12:15 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/11/19 12:13 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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The Culadasa story has significant value as it leads to some questions about just what 4th path IS. Is it possible that an arhat can "misbehave" in relation to our ideas about what "enlightened behaviour" is? Are our ideas about morality absolutes, or mental constructs?  Is it possible to break a vow and still see reality as it is? Does the behavior of the teacher invalidate the teachings? It is worth carefully examining what the completion of "4th Path", and what "self" really are, as well as investigating which specific parts create deep feelings of attachment or aversion around the Culadasa story, IMHO.

I personally think that what is true about Daniel's "Perfect Speech" section of MCTB2 is true about this topic:

"Very closely related to the action models are those models that imagine that enlightened beings will always say exactly the right thing in a perfectly kind and appropriate way. It is not that right speech as a practice and part of the eightfold path isn’t important; it very much is, but here I am talking about models regarding results. It is not that insight practice can’t help us to recognize our intention to speak before we speak and thus provide an increased ability to internally edit the mental script before it translates to actual words. It is not that insight practices can’t slowly transform our ways of being in the world into somewhat healthier ones, as they often do.

However, the ideals that people have around right speech almost always conform to their own personal vision of exactly what proper speech and etiquette are and how everything should be said, ideals that are part of their own individual and cultural conditionings, which vary widely. Chances are slim that any two people, even awakened ones, would agree on exactly what would be the perfect thing to say and the perfect way to say it in any given situation, and that also includes awakened beings. Styles of communication, agendas, and goals for speaking vary widely. There is little chance that you will understand exactly what someone else is trying to accomplish when they say something, and even less of a chance that anyone will always know exactly how someone will interpret what they say." - MCTB2, The Perfect Speech Models, Daniel Ingram


-

We are very fortunate to have access to this board. Notwithstanding our generous host, there are a literal cornucopia of posts in this thread especially that point DIRECTLY at the nature of things and could easily be a ladder to great insight for anyone looking carefully and thoughfully. 
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Not two, not one, modified 4 Years ago at 9/9/19 8:11 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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.....:

SECONDARY SUFFERIG MODEL


According to this model, babies are born without any sense of self. Conceptualization that occurs during growing up creates the delusion of self and “fundamental suffering”. So, “fundamental suffering” is not actually “fundamental” – it’s just a secondary layer of suffering, a consequence of conceptualization during early childhood development. Awakening is just cleaning this unnecessary layer of craving/suffering. Babies and animals are already in an awakened state. An awakened person, therefore, is susceptible to all forms of ordinary craving and suffering, just like baby is.
 
What do you think? Which model is correct? Neither?
PS Everything I said might be just a load of horsesh*t. But I am happy to learn from my mistakes.
 

Not bad, but the suttas would say liberation is rooting out even the tendency towards more craving. Hence a baby still has the tendency and is thus not liberated in the sense the suttas use the term.

But yes, you still have the web after the spider is killed. It looks kind of pretty in the sunlight, and waves nicely in the breeze.

Eventually the web goes too, and then there is no residue remaining.  
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Griffin, modified 4 Years ago at 9/13/19 6:46 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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"Being human" does not necessarily equal having sex with dozen mistresses and prostitutes. Expecting fidelity and honesty does not equal putting someone on pedestal and demanding perfection. 

Daniel wrote that there are people who "live lives that would be considered unremittingly exemplary and even saintly by the very highest standards of human generosity, compassion, and conduct. I have been fortunate enough to meet and work with a few of these people and continue to stand in awe of them."

So, it's possible.

But the burning question is this: Is Awakening completely and inherently amoral phemomenon (unrelated to morality)? Is the classical image of the Buddha just lumping together two disparate things - "perfect being" archetype and awakening? 

Or maybe that's a lazy and simplistic answer? Maybe there is an intricate web of deeper potential psychological connections that should be described? (What comes to mind is a view abot relation between emptiness and compassion that can be often found in the literature).

It seems to me like we have an unexplained hole in our pragmatic dharma perspective. On the one hand, we there are obvious examples of awakened people behaving immorally. On the other, there are things that imply that awakening and compassion have some deeper relation, things like this: "We might say that compassion is the ultimate aspect of desire, or think of compassion and desire on a continuum. The more wisdom or understanding of interconnectedness there is behind our intentions and actions, the more they reflect compassion and the more the results will turn out well. The more greed, hatred, delusion, or lack of understanding of interconnectedness there is behind our intentions and actions, the more they reflect the distorted aspect of desire and the more suffering there will likely be." (MCBT)

How to solve this contradiction?
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Santiago Jimenez, modified 4 Years ago at 9/13/19 7:02 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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I just started a thread called "Waking up and Growing up - a new understanding of Enlightenment?" that is preciselly aimed at the new ways of looking at this stuff. It seems to be related to the integration of Eastern and Western wisdom. (Awakening technologies and Development technologies)
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/13/19 8:34 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Griffin, et al, I'm going to maintain the contrarian position, at least for argument's sake, that awakening is not related to morality, ethics and societal norms. There are extraordinary, exemplary human beings who don't have any kind of spiritual practice. I further assert that being an exemplary human being is completely unrelated to having a spiritual practice. I'm also going to assert that people with spiritual practices, even those who are awakened, have the same incidence of moral and ethical misbehavior that other human beings have. Of course, I can't prove any of these assertions but I think it's helpful, even healthy, to maintain this kind of skepticism.

And neither, of course, can the claim that awakened people have some leg up on morality be proven. I suspect it's all in how you look at it, and in what you believe.

Simply put, the unexplained hole in our perspective doesn't actually exist unless and until we place a specialness on awakening or spirituality.

YMMV
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Milo, modified 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 1:10 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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What do mean by an unexplained hole in perspective?
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 8:00 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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What do mean by an unexplained hole in perspective?

That was a quote from a post by Griffin.
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Milo, modified 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 11:30 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Chris Marti:
What do mean by an unexplained hole in perspective?

That was a quote from a post by Griffin.


Oh ok. That's what I get for jumping in late to a massive thread emoticon
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Griffin, modified 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 5:10 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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I had adopted the same view, but things like these Daniel's quotes made me question that assumption:

"The more wisdom or understanding of interconnectedness there is behind our intentions and actions, the more they reflect compassion and the more the results will turn out well."

"One of the things that stream entry did to me was that I began to perceive the world and those around me very differently. Everything suddenly seemed to me the inevitable movement of empty compassion." 

"What is interesting is that as soon as I got stream entry, all I could think about was how everything was the balanced manifestation of empty compassion, and that this applied to all beings without exception, and I did this with very strict noting technique in a very Theravadan context and set of conceptual frameworks. Suddenly so much Mahayana stuff that had been so obscure suddenly made sense, and I also saw how I had misread plenty of the Theravadan stuff to miss those aspects in it."

@Milo
On the one hand, there is some relationship between awakening and compassion, and on the other, we know that an awakened person can be totally immoral. I feel that we lack a comprehensive explanation for this. We can't just say that it's apples and oranges.
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Ben V, modified 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 6:48 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Thanks for reminding us of those quotes. They are certainly relevant to this discussion.

I once asked Kenneth Folk if he thinks someone who does not observe the basic 5 moral precepts can still attain awakening. His answer was quite interesting:

He said that if such person can succeed to maintain their attention on successive phenomena in meditation, they may still break through to stream-entry. But once they get stream-entry, it is less likely they will break those precepts because, having seen the illusory nature of the self removes investment of energy in that illusory self, which in turn liberates energy to be more aware of others and the impact of our actions on others. He did of course also say that the idea that a stream-winner can't break precepts is bogus.

I was surprised to hear this from one of the awakened man out there who is very up-front in debunking the myth of moral perfection of awakened people. What I got from all this is that yes, awakening seems to contribute in some ways to moral development, but not in the exaggerated way tradition (especially commentarial Pali Buddhism) has been claiming it does.

Chris, I wouldn't know how to answer the questions you raised here. For my part I think I'll just have to remain open and somewhat agnostic to those questions; of why some awakened people can skrew up so bad. Of course, maybe they are not awakened as they say? Or maybe their habit energy from pre-awakening were very bad habits that persisted? Or maybe you're right about morality and awakening not being related. 

The latter point reminds me of an psychologist author I used to read in the past, the late Albert Ellis, a forefathers of the cognitive -behavioral tradition. He was given a copy of B. Gunaratana's Mindfulness in Plain English and asked to comment on what he thinks. One of his critique of it was the assumption that insight into reality (a notion he was also suspicious of), would automatically make one more compassionate. He said to be more compassionate one must desire and decide to be compassionate, and most importantly practice compassion in order to be compassionate. He didn't buy into the idea that one becomes compassionate by perceiving some aspects of reality such as impermanence and no-self.

Ps. Apologies if my memory of what Kenneth said exactly turns out mistaken, but that's exactly what I remember from his answer.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 6:55 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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I’m thinking that for some awakened people life may involve new temptations that they weren’t morally prepared for. They may have better tools for dealing with the usual traps (and they may or may not use these tools depending on circumstances), but when new golden traps arise, their egos may say “Screw these tools - I’m going to check this out!”
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 7:58 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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... these Daniel's quotes made me question that assumption...

I think it's dubious to draw general conclusions form one example. I think Daniel is an exception in many ways, as is Kenneth Folk. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 8:18 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Chris Marti:

I think Daniel is an exception in many ways


Yeah, well, he makes the effort rather than counting on it to be delivered, and he is adamant about seeing the traps rather than denying them. I believe that’s the way to go about it. It isn’t easy. Most people are uncomfortable with seeing their shadowsides.
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Griffin, modified 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 8:50 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Well, those quotes were just a drop in the ocean. Every book on awakening that I encountered claims that there is some kind of link between insight and compassion. Examples are countless, here's the first one that came to mind:

"Generally speaking, and although it may at first seem paradoxical, as we travel this meditative journey into emptiness we find that the more we taste the voidness of all things, the more loving-kindness, compassion, generosity, and deep care for the world open naturally as a consequence in the heart. Seeing emptiness opens love. Just as Nāgārjuna wrote: 'Without doubt, when practitioners have developed their understanding of emptiness, their minds will be devoted to the welfare of others'." (Rob Burbea, "Seeing that frees")

Also, if we look back to Daniel's quotes, he is not just speaking about some personal quirks, he is saying that insight into interconnectedness is somehow related to compassion, and mentions Mahayana and empty compassion in general context.

I am not saying "awakened person = moral human being", I'm just saying that there may be some kind of inherent psycho-neurological link between insight and compassion, wich may or may not manifest in an individual case; it's possible that nobody understands the exact nature of that link.
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 10:45 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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I am not saying "awakened person = moral human being", I'm just saying that there may be some kind of inherent psycho-neurological link between insight and compassion, wich may or may not manifest in an individual case; it's possible that nobody understands the exact nature of that link.

It's obvious, and true, that nobody understands the nature of the link  emoticon

But it's fun to think and talk about, right?
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Griffin, modified 4 Years ago at 9/15/19 8:29 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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It's obvious, and true, that nobody understands the nature of the link  emoticon

But it's fun to think and talk about, right? 
Exactly emoticon
 
If so, how do you explain Richard Baker Roshi, the Sakyong, and so many other awakened people who are total shits to many of their students?
 
What comes to mind is an old video where Shinzen Young passionately speaks about his teacher, Sasaki Roshi, saying that he has tremendous and endless compassion, helping others “all the time”. That was before the sex abuse accusations.

This looks like a pattern. First a teacher has a reputation for being compassionate; then – scandal happens, and everyone is shocked. Was all the compassion faked? I don’t know, but I doubt it. We all have a wide range of different “sub-personalities”. And just like putting on pedestal, negative labeling and reducing the whole personality to a ugly caricature is also a cognitive distortion. I think many people are doing that to Culadasa right now.
 
Does insight automatically cause action?

Obviously not. Here’s yet another MCTB citation, that makes a counterbalance to the previous ones I posted: “While it does get sometimes easier to take the wider world of beings into consideration as the center point is seen through, this is very different from walking around in a state of continuous love.“
 
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/15/19 8:37 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Yes - this is all nuance with no obvious answers. We have the human conundrum to solve, each of us, in every second of existence. I'd bet Richard Speck, Jeffrey Dahmer and Timothy McVeigh were nice to people sometimes. 
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Siavash ', modified 4 Years ago at 9/15/19 8:43 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Shinzen says the same thing about Sasaki Roshi after that accusations too. In a Buddhist Geeks conference, he says the same thing, and says that Sasaki Roshi had a different view about compassion from what Shinzen has, and says that Sasaki Roshi doesn't lack compassion, but lacks empathy (Beside other negatives that were related to those behaviors, he says.).
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 11:00 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Also, if we look back to Daniel's quotes, he is not just speaking about some personal quirks, he is saying that insight into interconnectedness is somehow related to compassion, and mentions Mahayana and empty compassion in general context.

Does insight automatically cause action? If so, how do you explain Richard Baker Roshi, the Sakyong, and so many other awakened people who are total shits to many of their students?

Look, my experience, my own personal experience, has been that deep insight is very revealing of how the mind works. That insight can be used in a way to limit or enhance the effect my actions have on others. It's my choice, however, to use my insight that way. I have to be motivated to do that, I have to see the value of it to other people and to myself. I don't think everyone has that motivation, which seems pretty obvious when we look at the behaviors of certain teachers and awakened people.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 11:31 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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So then you agree that it provides tools that can be used for personal development to the benefit of others, as long as there is the proper motivation (deep down and throughout, not just as cosmetics) and circumstances allow for one to realize the impact on others accurately enough? If so, we share the same view.
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 4:06 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 4:06 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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So then you agree that it provides tools that can be used for personal development to the benefit of others, as long as there is the proper motivation... 

Yes, that's what I said.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/15/19 12:44 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Good. It seems that we often misunderstand each other in threads where I talk about this.
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Laurel Carrington, modified 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 11:46 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Chris Marti:
Also, if we look back to Daniel's quotes, he is not just speaking about some personal quirks, he is saying that insight into interconnectedness is somehow related to compassion, and mentions Mahayana and empty compassion in general context.

Does insight automatically cause action? If so, how do you explain Richard Baker Roshi, the Sakyong, and so many other awakened people who are total shits to many of their students?


At the risk of belaboring a point, on another thread I wrote: 

“A big part of the problem here is that examples of awakened, immoral individuals tend to be teachers with large numbers of students, who look on their teachers as having the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Spiritual practice is, after all, something people tend to get into because they are becoming aware of the suffering in their lives, not because things are going well. Spiritual leaders appear to their students as having beaten the system, gotten the answer, and students want to be close to them, to have something of what these guys have. That level of mass admiration, even adoration, isn’t something most humans deal with very well. In addition, a major spiritual teacher may have no one in his (or her, but not as frequently) life who will tell him when he’s out of line, who can provide a reality check. So they fail spectacularly, get caught, and everyone is traumatized and people’s faith in the practice is shaken. 

“This story is repeated over over with nauseating frequency. But what about those like Bill Hamilton, who stay out of the public eye; who are good, kind, moral people who happen also to be awake? Can we imagine that there are in fact plenty of such people, some on this forum, even, but others all over the world who just live their lives, do good in the world, and who wouldn’t dream of exploiting or abusing anyone, financially, sexually, or otherwise? What makes us think that awakened people are all teachers with large followings? These are the ones we see, obviously, but I should hope there are other people waking up who are moved by compassion and a desire to help others.  
I have no way of knowing whether this is the case, but I am suggesting that the bad examples everyone has seen are not representative.”

I’d like to add that wealth, power, and fame seem in general to be toxic to the human animal as far as morality is concerned. So even awakened beings (and of course we’re all assuming these bad actors are awake) have trouble resisting the pull. 

I do not believe that the three poisons can be eliminated altogether from humans whether awake or not, and thus we must all practice morality at every stage of our lives. But I do think, based on what I’ve read, observed, and experienced, that awakening brings with it a reduction in greed, delusion, and aversion. Put anyone in a situation of enough stress and that person will revert to worse behavior, especially with no check on that behavior. This does not mean that morality and awakening have nothing to do with each other.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 11:54 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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That’s very well put, Laurel.
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Milo, modified 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 12:32 PM
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
That’s very well put, Laurel.


+1
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Not two, not one, modified 4 Years ago at 9/15/19 5:44 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/15/19 5:44 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Chris Marti:
Also, if we look back to Daniel's quotes, he is not just speaking about some personal quirks, he is saying that insight into interconnectedness is somehow related to compassion, and mentions Mahayana and empty compassion in general context.

Does insight automatically cause action? If so, how do you explain Richard Baker Roshi, the Sakyong, and so many other awakened people who are total shits to many of their students?

Look, my experience, my own personal experience, has been that deep insight is very revealing of how the mind works. That insight can be used in a way to limit or enhance the effect my actions have on others. It's my choice, however, to use my insight that way. I have to be motivated to do that, I have to see the value of it to other people and to myself. I don't think everyone has that motivation, which seems pretty obvious when we look at the behaviors of certain teachers and awakened people.

This is why I worry a bit about the technological projects that aim to flip a switch to get awakening. Awakening without purification and discipline and all the rest - that could produce some very alien or self aborbed yogis.  Or worse, some who don't agree with the social consensus around pragmatic dharma!  emoticon

However, I reassure myself that it probably won't ever happen, as I think there are various progressive stages that have to be achieved and internalised as prerequisites for progress.  So 'flipping a switch' may be able to give nanas, and maybe some early paths, but I don't see how it could be a shortcut to full awakening, at least not without being some kind of unethical sankharic lobotomy.

Still, we should be careful what we wish for.

And for that matter, do we really want to wish for a perfect guru?  That too is a kind of unreal self - an external one - that will only ever cause suffering because it does not and cannot exist. Wishing for the perfect guru is fundamentally a delusion.  Why blame the delusion for our own disappointments?  That is just yet another self-defence mechanism.
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/19/19 3:29 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/19/19 3:29 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Chris Marti:
Also, if we look back to Daniel's quotes, he is not just speaking about some personal quirks, he is saying that insight into interconnectedness is somehow related to compassion, and mentions Mahayana and empty compassion in general context.

Does insight automatically cause action? If so, how do you explain Richard Baker Roshi, the Sakyong, and so many other awakened people who are total shits to many of their students?

Look, my experience, my own personal experience, has been that deep insight is very revealing of how the mind works. That insight can be used in a way to limit or enhance the effect my actions have on others. It's my choice, however, to use my insight that way. I have to be motivated to do that, I have to see the value of it to other people and to myself. I don't think everyone has that motivation, which seems pretty obvious when we look at the behaviors of certain teachers and awakened people.

aloha chris,

   Anyone who can speak knowledgeably about "awakened people" must be one of us. And we are fallible, we aren't always nice. If not cruel, we are occasionally unkind, unappreciative, disconnected. At the level of ordinary awakened people iving their ordinary awakened lives, there may be nothing especially harmful or even remarkable about this. But when someone sets up as an authority in spiritual matters, there are going to be problems. 

   It is a given in our society that you can't be too rich, famous or powerful. And yet if happiness is the goal of life, wealth, fame and power are pitfalls and distractions along the way. It takes a strong personality to be able to handle the burdens of excess and maintain a spiritual standpoint. Fools rush in where the wise fear to tread.

   "Teaching" spirituality, as any awakened person knows, is impossible in any direct way. One can point to the moon of ultimate insight, another may offer exercises to reduce impediments to wisdom, and so forth - people here are far more familiar with contemporary "teachers" than I am. We may presume that most - being awakened people - are originally motivated by an unselfish desire to help others to realize enlightenment.

   The essence of teaching is accepting that all people are part of the deal. An awakened person can't really turn anyone away. This is why, as a rule, sufis don't say they are sufis. It would only encourage people who don't really know what a sufi is to demand answers to nonsensical questions.

   Which leads to my point: if you are going to put out a shingle and offer yourself as a spiritual physician to all comers, you owe it to most of the people who approach you to turn them away. By whatever means necessary. The reputation of the teacher is just another coin to expend for the sake of the dharma.

   Far easier for an awakened person to be of such rectitude that the insincere and uncommitted do not approach. Far easier to avoid fame, avoid wealth, avoid power, and avoid the interest of the vulgar who value such things.

   Which brings me to your second paragraph, where you speak of the value of insightful action on yourself and others. Indeed, what is healthy for oneself is healthy for society, as self and other are not two. We awakened people posting here - I include you all - post for the sake of others and for the sake of our own understanding. The only reason teaching is even relevant is that we are learning at the same time. "This lone brightness here listening to the dharma," as rinzai puts it. Rinzai used to rail at his monks for being merely "ricebags and clothes hooks," and he exhorted them to realize themselves, so that they might "Be free to spend ten thousand in gold each day," referring to their daily almsfood, the contents of their begging bowls.

   The net of heaven has very wide meshes.


terry



FOR FREE
(Joni Mitchell)

I slept last night in a good hotel
I went shopping today for jewels
the wind rushed around in the dirty town
and the children let out from the schools
i was standing on a noisy corner
waiting for the walking green
across the street he stood
and he played real good
on his clarinet, for free
Now me I play for fortunes
and those velvet curtain calls
i've got a black limousine
and two gentlemen
escorting me to the halls
and I play if you have the money
or if you're a friend to me
but the one man band
by the quick lunch stand
he was playing real good, for free
Nobody stopped to hear him
though he played so sweet and high
they knew he had never
been on their t.v.
so they passed his music by
i meant to go over and ask for a song
maybe put on a harmony...
i heard his refrain
as the signal changed
he was playing real good, for free

Songwriters: JONI MITCHELL


   
neko, modified 4 Years ago at 9/18/19 8:01 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/18/19 7:58 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Griffin:
Every book on awakening that I encountered claims that there is some kind of link between insight and compassion.

Every book on the Flat Earth Theory that I have encountered claims that the Earth is flat.
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Griffin, modified 4 Years ago at 9/18/19 2:15 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Well, to continue the metaphor, a crucial book that busts the "Flat Earth" myth (a myth that Awakening necessarily causes compassion) is MCTB.

However, even MCTB openly acknowledges that there is some link between insight (e.g. into interconnectedness) and compassion. (Although this is not by default, and it's much weaker that most people think.)
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Ryan, modified 4 Years ago at 9/18/19 1:39 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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You've put you're finger right on the central issue. Insight does not guarantee morality (obviously) but they are not perfectly unrelated either. There is some kind of link, but what is it exactly?

Best as I can discern, insight provides tools that can, but in no way-shape-or-form have to, engender compassion and morality. Becoming a top-level theoretical physicist could do something similar, but we would never expect that such knowledge as the physicists possess must lead onto any particular pattern of behavior would we?
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/18/19 1:50 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Yes, exactly!

As I've said here several times now, insight provides us with access to "the way things work" in regard to mind. What insight does not do is provide us with the motivation act on those insights. That motivation we need to obtain elsewhere; upbringing, social norms, training in ethics and morality, religion, etc.
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Laurel Carrington, modified 4 Years ago at 9/18/19 2:17 PM
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So insight = enlightenment? Or awakening?
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/18/19 3:19 PM
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So insight = enlightenment? Or awakening?

What do you think, Laurel?
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Laurel Carrington, modified 4 Years ago at 9/18/19 5:50 PM
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Chris Marti:
So insight = enlightenment? Or awakening?

What do you think, Laurel?
I’ve gone on at great length on the waking up or growing up thread about what I think, but am wondering whether this is your assumption. 
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/18/19 7:57 PM
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I’ve gone on at great length on the waking up or growing up thread about what I think, but am wondering whether this is your assumption. 

Laurel, I'll repeat what I posted earlier today:

... insight provides us with access to "the way things work" in regard to mind. What insight does not do is provide us with the motivation act on those insights. That motivation we need to obtain elsewhere; upbringing, social norms, training in ethics and morality, religion, etc.

I don't like using the word "enlightenment" because it has too much baggage and gets interpreted in a million different ways. I use the word "awakening" to mean access to the way things work in regard to the mind. For me, that's the key/gateway to whatever else we choose to do about what we find on the other side of our awakening.
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Not two, not one, modified 4 Years ago at 9/18/19 10:19 PM
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So just agreeing with Chris, and adding some more opinions.

Compassion does become a more natural response. But it is reactive rather than naturally proactive. There is no particular compulsion to go out and do good. But you do naturally look upon 'harmful' or 'bad' people with much more compassion. You understand how they are tormenting themselves and wish they could escape that torment.  You also don't want to hurt or think badly of others, as you know you are just reinforcing a hurtful dualism in yourself - better to be kind and treat them as codependent elements of existence.  

But you will now feel completely free of societal norms. So you might act in a 'bad' way, but it will be consistent with your own internal morality and the residue of karmic sankharas remaining (your history, personality, humanity, and your choices about how to live your life). 

Personally, I now drive faster and get more speeding tickets. I don't agonise about the ticket as I once would have, but I do still slow down a bit to avoid the next one (but not too much ...). I don't really see the difference between that and snorting coke or sexual misadventure. Or eating baked goods made with palm oil. I just happen to do the first one rather than the other three.
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/19/19 7:06 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Yeah, I think all the talk of morality in the Buddhist "source material" (Milo's term) is there, at least in part, because the ancient Buddhists knew that moral and ethical behavior was not automatic. So I think there's ample reason to have teachings on morality be a part of Buddhism and to make sure students carry those teachings throughout their practice and their lives.
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Laurel Carrington, modified 4 Years ago at 9/19/19 3:17 PM
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You don’t see any difference between getting speeding tickets, snorting coke, or sexual misadventure. Speeding carries with it the possibility of harming or even killing oneself or another in an accident, although most of us break the speed limit regularly to some extent,—the harm increases with higher and higher speeds (thus all speeding is not the same). Snorting coke hurts oneself, more and more with regular use. 

Now about sexual misadventure: this, too, is a matter of degree. Giving in to temptation to cheat on a spouse might be forgivable; making a dirty joke at a party isn’t as serious as groping someone; and so on. But many of the cases in Buddhist circles have involved long-term violation of norms (John Yates) in most cases compounded by abuse of position, and in fact abuse of women. 

I will come out and reveal my own dog in this fight: I believe this last type of offense has not been given the seriousness it deserves. Calling it “misadventure” is inadequate, suggesting something rather trivial. Male predatory behavior on a grand scale maims women’s lives. That so many so-called “enlightened” teachers have been revealed to have engaged in it is tantamount to an emergency. 
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/19/19 3:20 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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I will come out and reveal my own dog in this fight: I believe this last type of offense has not been given the seriousness it deserves. Calling it “misadventure” is inadequate, suggesting something rather trivial. Male predatory behavior on a grand scale maims women’s lives. That so many so-called “enlightened” teachers have been revealed to have engaged in it is tantamount to an emergency. 

Yes, the sexual predation is horrific. There is no way to soften that. Same with Catholic priests. It's a power game, not just sexual in nature. It's doubly awful.
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Laurel Carrington, modified 4 Years ago at 9/19/19 3:21 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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So maybe insight (Chris’s preferred term) makes people behave worse than otherwise because they no longer are internally driven to observe social norms? Maybe we should all avoid insight, then, in order to avoid hurting others. 
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Siavash ', modified 4 Years ago at 9/19/19 3:32 PM
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Laurel Carrington:
So maybe insight (Chris’s preferred term) makes people behave worse than otherwise because they no longer are internally driven to observe social norms? Maybe we should all avoid insight, then, in order to avoid hurting others. 


In Sufi tradition in the past, they wouldn't teach everyone that would want to learn practice. They would first test the person in terms of morality, and check that they could keep secrets after they had seen something, then they would teach them (Although there are many stories of corruption among them too, like all other traditions.).

(The above is not my personal opinion :-), I disagree with that approach)
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 6:24 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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So maybe insight (Chris’s preferred term) makes people behave worse than otherwise because they no longer are internally driven to observe social norms? Maybe we should all avoid insight, then, in order to avoid hurting others.

This has not been my experience at all.
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Laurel Carrington, modified 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 10:05 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Chris Marti:
So maybe insight (Chris’s preferred term) makes people behave worse than otherwise because they no longer are internally driven to observe social norms? Maybe we should all avoid insight, then, in order to avoid hurting others.

This has not been my experience at all.
I was just responding to something in a post by “curious,” that he was less likely now to worry about speeding than earlier, pre-meditative attainments (post 444). 

I am very glad that this is not your experience. It isn’t mine either. 
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Not two, not one, modified 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 2:40 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 2:35 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Laurel Carrington:
Chris Marti:
So maybe insight (Chris’s preferred term) makes people behave worse than otherwise because they no longer are internally driven to observe social norms? Maybe we should all avoid insight, then, in order to avoid hurting others.

This has not been my experience at all.
I was just responding to something in a post by “curious,” that he was less likely now to worry about speeding than earlier, pre-meditative attainments (post 444). 

I am very glad that this is not your experience. It isn’t mine either. 

Well, to reply to Laurel and Edward and Ryan ... I'm not sure social norms have anything do with not hurting others. The opposite in fact.  What about these social norms of various times?

Shooting black men who refuse to obey the police
Imprisoning or killing gay men
Raping within marraige
Stealing land from indigenous people
Going on pogroms against Jews
Slavery
Taxing Chinese immigrants just for being Chinese
Beating your children
Sacrificing your children to appease the gods (see the recent discovery in Peru?)
Drinking yourself into a stupor
Bullying weaker people
Polluting waterways.
Emitting excessive carbon to live comfortably.

I could go on and on. There are even worse examples - trial by combat, witch ducking, the intellectual and sexual 'patronge' of boys in ancient greece. Does a little mild speeding really belong in this list? 

And of course, look at my original comment "But you will now feel completely free of societal norms. So you might act in a 'bad' way, but it will be consistent with your own internal morality and the residue of karmic sankharas remaining"  Surely that is pure vajrayana?

But offend aginst the totem of the speed limit, and that's another thing! 

Of course, all of these views and reactions are golden opportunities for insight. Why the craving for social norms. Why the craving for obedience to the law? What are the characteristics of those objects?

Metta to all.
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Laurel Carrington, modified 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 5:28 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Okay, okay, okay; not trying to make you out to be an ogre for violating the speed limit. And yes, social norms aren’t the best guide, are they, as you document so well. In fact, there is no way to nail down a completely coherent, universal moral code; even the Golden Rule doesn’t cut it, not to mention Kant’s categorical imperative. Even if there were such a code, no human being would ever be able to observe it perfectly. Arhats don’t seem to do any better than uninstructed worldlings in many cases, unfortunately. 
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spatial, modified 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 5:49 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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curious:
Of course, all of these views and reactions are golden opportunities for insight. Why the craving for social norms. Why the craving for obedience to the law? What are the characteristics of those objects?

That's what I want to know.

Why is everybody so obsessed with figuring out how to perfectly observe moral codes? Is that what you hope enlightenment will do to you: make it impossible to do anything bad?

Do you walk around everyday thinking "Hm, I wonder how I can cause the least amount of damage today..."?
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 7:49 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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spatial:
curious:
Of course, all of these views and reactions are golden opportunities for insight. Why the craving for social norms. Why the craving for obedience to the law? What are the characteristics of those objects?

That's what I want to know.

Why is everybody so obsessed with figuring out how to perfectly observe moral codes? Is that what you hope enlightenment will do to you: make it impossible to do anything bad?

Do you walk around everyday thinking "Hm, I wonder how I can cause the least amount of damage today..."?

    yes, by god, I do...





Bird On The Wire
(Leonard Cohen)

Like a bird on the wire
Like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free
Like a worm on a hook
Like a knight from some old-fashioned book
I have saved all my ribbons for thee
If I, if I have been unkind
I hope that you can just let it go by
If I, if I have been untrue
I hope you know it was never to you
For like a baby, stillborn
Like a beast with his horn
I have torn everyone who reached out for me
But I swear by this song
And by all that I have done wrong
I will make it all up to thee
I saw a beggar leaning on his wooden crutch
He said to me, "you must not ask for so much"
And a pretty woman leaning in her darkened door
She cried to me, "hey, why not ask for more?"
Oh, like a bird on the wire
Like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free

Songwriters: Leonard Cohen
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Not two, not one, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 12:47 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 12:47 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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terry:
spatial:
curious:
Of course, all of these views and reactions are golden opportunities for insight. Why the craving for social norms. Why the craving for obedience to the law? What are the characteristics of those objects?

That's what I want to know.

Why is everybody so obsessed with figuring out how to perfectly observe moral codes? Is that what you hope enlightenment will do to you: make it impossible to do anything bad?

Do you walk around everyday thinking "Hm, I wonder how I can cause the least amount of damage today..."?

    yes, by god, I do...


Yes - the desire to be harmless is clear. 

So seeking to be harmless, compassionate and kind. Yes. 
But compelled to go out and do good. No.
Desirious of fitting into laws and norms for their own sake. No.
Fearful of doing the wrong thing. No.
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 4:31 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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curious:
terry:
spatial:
curious:
Of course, all of these views and reactions are golden opportunities for insight. Why the craving for social norms. Why the craving for obedience to the law? What are the characteristics of those objects?

That's what I want to know.

Why is everybody so obsessed with figuring out how to perfectly observe moral codes? Is that what you hope enlightenment will do to you: make it impossible to do anything bad?

Do you walk around everyday thinking "Hm, I wonder how I can cause the least amount of damage today..."?

    yes, by god, I do...


Yes - the desire to be harmless is clear. 

So seeking to be harmless, compassionate and kind. Yes. 
But compelled to go out and do good. No.
Desirious of fitting into laws and norms for their own sake. No.
Fearful of doing the wrong thing. No.

you have it...
Jens Theisen, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 4:57 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 4:56 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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spatial:
Do you walk around everyday thinking "Hm, I wonder how I can cause the least amount of damage today..."?

That's indeed a bizarre concern that most people here appear to have.

Virtually all the good in the world comes from the selfish drive to be one's best, and the only concern I have regarding morality is that I don't care enough about my life's legacy.

Being nice is easy and common, being useful is difficult and rare.
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Not two, not one, modified 4 Years ago at 9/19/19 3:44 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Laurel Carrington:
You don’t see any difference between getting speeding tickets, snorting coke, or sexual misadventure. Speeding carries with it the possibility of harming or even killing oneself or another in an accident, although most of us break the speed limit regularly to some extent,—the harm increases with higher and higher speeds (thus all speeding is not the same). Snorting coke hurts oneself, more and more with regular use. 

Now about sexual misadventure: this, too, is a matter of degree. Giving in to temptation to cheat on a spouse might be forgivable; making a dirty joke at a party isn’t as serious as groping someone; and so on. But many of the cases in Buddhist circles have involved long-term violation of norms (John Yates) in most cases compounded by abuse of position, and in fact abuse of women. 

I will come out and reveal my own dog in this fight: I believe this last type of offense has not been given the seriousness it deserves. Calling it “misadventure” is inadequate, suggesting something rather trivial. Male predatory behavior on a grand scale maims women’s lives. That so many so-called “enlightened” teachers have been revealed to have engaged in it is tantamount to an emergency. 

So sorry Laurel - by choosing the term misadventure, I mean to imply the invovlement of consenting adults without a power manipulation going on. I completely agree sexual predation is absolutely dreadful, and quite a different thing.

The case of John Yates is a strange one, and we don't know all the facts. The letter that kicked off the thread had some odd wording that seemed to imply some activity was acknowledged and accepted, but then it went too far?  Impossible to know really.  But you may have more information than I do! 
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/19/19 5:31 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/19/19 5:31 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 2426 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Laurel Carrington:
You don’t see any difference between getting speeding tickets, snorting coke, or sexual misadventure. Speeding carries with it the possibility of harming or even killing oneself or another in an accident, although most of us break the speed limit regularly to some extent,—the harm increases with higher and higher speeds (thus all speeding is not the same). Snorting coke hurts oneself, more and more with regular use. 

Now about sexual misadventure: this, too, is a matter of degree. Giving in to temptation to cheat on a spouse might be forgivable; making a dirty joke at a party isn’t as serious as groping someone; and so on. But many of the cases in Buddhist circles have involved long-term violation of norms (John Yates) in most cases compounded by abuse of position, and in fact abuse of women. 

I will come out and reveal my own dog in this fight: I believe this last type of offense has not been given the seriousness it deserves. Calling it “misadventure” is inadequate, suggesting something rather trivial. Male predatory behavior on a grand scale maims women’s lives. That so many so-called “enlightened” teachers have been revealed to have engaged in it is tantamount to an emergency. 

aloha laurel,

    I agree that as a catchall term, "sexual misdventure" does not belong with eating palm oil or snorting coke. Like classing rape or incest with not brushing one's teeth.

   On the other hand, not having a "dog in the fight," I'd like to point out the old saw, "power is an aphrodisiac." That male sexual predation is the primary problem in general social life I would not dispute. In balance, female sexual predation is even more rampant, if (arguably) less harmful to the biosphere. A biologist tends to grade the danger in increments of testosterone, which controls aggression in both sexes. In any case, women tend to throw themselves at men of power, in any field, and men are very vulnerable to this. The "fog of lust" is like "the fog of war" - one sees little but whom to shoot, and to defend oneself against. And all is fair.

   It is what it is. If disappointing, it should not be surprising. And these things are rarely as one-sided as the indignant feminist would have it. Even so, social predators do not deserve a reputation for enlightenment. Rajneesh spoke eloquently and intelligently even when slurring his words and befuddled on drugs. Choghyam trungpa, whose insight I admire and whose work I still mine for gems, was an alcoholic even in his best days. Even the best spiritual resume cannot conceal a person's humanity. "For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light."

   Awakened or not we are just men and women. A reputation for sanctity means little; caveat emptor. As the buddha said in the nirvana sutra, think for yourself.


terry





from john dryden's play, "the secular masque"




DIANA:

With horns and with hounds I waken the day, 
And hie to my woodland walks away; 
I tuck up my robe, and am buskin'd soon, 
And tie to my forehead a waxing moon. 
I course the fleet stag, unkennel the fox, 
And chase the wild goats o'er summits of rocks, 
With shouting and hooting we pierce thro' the sky; 
And Echo turns hunter, and doubles the cry. 


and



MARS:

Inspire the vocal brass, inspire; 
The world is past its infant age: 
         Arms and honour, 
         Arms and honour, 
Set the martial mind on fire, 
And kindle manly rage. 
Mars has look'd the sky to red; 
And peace, the lazy good, is fled. 
Plenty, peace, and pleasure fly; 
         The sprightly green 
In woodland-walks, no more is seen; 
The sprightly green, has drunk the Tyrian dye. 
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 6:26 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 6:26 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 5117 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Awakened or not we are just men and women. 

Amen, terry!
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Laurel Carrington, modified 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 11:11 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 11:10 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/7/14 Recent Posts
aloha laurel,:

   On the other hand, not having a "dog in the fight," I'd like to point out the old saw, "power is an aphrodisiac." That male sexual predation is the primary problem in general social life I would not dispute. In balance, female sexual predation is even more rampant, if (arguably) less harmful to the biosphere. A biologist tends to grade the danger in increments of testosterone, which controls aggression in both sexes. In any case, women tend to throw themselves at men of power, in any field, and men are very vulnerable to this. The "fog of lust" is like "the fog of war" - one sees little but whom to shoot, and to defend oneself against. And all is fair.

   It is what it is. If disappointing, it should not be surprising. And these things are rarely as one-sided as the indignant feminist would have it. Even so, social predators do not deserve a reputation for enlightenment. Rajneesh spoke eloquently and intelligently even when slurring his words and befuddled on drugs. Choghyam trungpa, whose insight I admire and whose work I still mine for gems, was an alcoholic even in his best days. Even the best spiritual resume cannot conceal a person's humanity. "For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light."

   Awakened or not we are just men and women. A reputation for sanctity means little; caveat emptor. As the buddha said in the nirvana sutra, think for yourself.


terry


Terry, I am a feminist and I am, in fact, angry. I don’t want to take on your stigmatizing label as an “indignant feminist,” however, which has caused me hesitation in responding to what you’ve said here. But onward I plunge:

I have seen no evidence to the effect that female sexual predation is “even more rampant” than male; in fact, all evidence points the other way. I fully concede that there are many women who are turned on by powerful men and who act on their desires, but the way you have made your point verges dangerously into “all women are temptresses” territory. I acknowledge that you haven’t come out and said as much, but you provide fuel to those who might be inclined to say so. 

Second, “these things are rarely . . . one sided” is another remark for which you have no evidence. From what I know about sexual abuse and rape, these things are usually one sided. Women and girls are drawn in by a false front, are socialized to doubt their own truth (I lived in an abusive marriage for 4 years and know whereof I speak), and then are hounded by their abusers’ enablers and apologists. You are far too cavalier in your generalizations, which by the way are part of a long tradition. Along with the “all women are temptresses” trope we have the “she was asking for it” trope, which, again, you haven’t alleged entirely, but saying that women rarely do not play a participatory role in such abuse is getting dangerously close. 

This is a profoundly serious matter which deserves measured and careful discussion, informed by as much data as we can glean, especially if we want to address the emergency in our own communities. Caveat emptor just won’t cut it. 
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 7:58 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 7:37 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 2426 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Laurel Carrington:
aloha laurel,:

   On the other hand, not having a "dog in the fight," I'd like to point out the old saw, "power is an aphrodisiac." That male sexual predation is the primary problem in general social life I would not dispute. In balance, female sexual predation is even more rampant, if (arguably) less harmful to the biosphere. A biologist tends to grade the danger in increments of testosterone, which controls aggression in both sexes. In any case, women tend to throw themselves at men of power, in any field, and men are very vulnerable to this. The "fog of lust" is like "the fog of war" - one sees little but whom to shoot, and to defend oneself against. And all is fair.

   It is what it is. If disappointing, it should not be surprising. And these things are rarely as one-sided as the indignant feminist would have it. Even so, social predators do not deserve a reputation for enlightenment. Rajneesh spoke eloquently and intelligently even when slurring his words and befuddled on drugs. Choghyam trungpa, whose insight I admire and whose work I still mine for gems, was an alcoholic even in his best days. Even the best spiritual resume cannot conceal a person's humanity. "For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light."

   Awakened or not we are just men and women. A reputation for sanctity means little; caveat emptor. As the buddha said in the nirvana sutra, think for yourself.


terry


Terry, I am a feminist and I am, in fact, angry. I don’t want to take on your stigmatizing label as an “indignant feminist,” however, which has caused me hesitation in responding to what you’ve said here. But onward I plunge:

I have seen no evidence to the effect that female sexual predation is “even more rampant” than male; in fact, all evidence points the other way. I fully concede that there are many women who are turned on by powerful men and who act on their desires, but the way you have made your point verges dangerously into “all women are temptresses” territory. I acknowledge that you haven’t come out and said as much, but you provide fuel to those who might be inclined to say so. 

Second, “these things are rarely . . . one sided” is another remark for which you have no evidence. From what I know about sexual abuse and rape, these things are usually one sided. Women and girls are drawn in by a false front, are socialized to doubt their own truth (I lived in an abusive marriage for 4 years and know whereof I speak), and then are hounded by their abusers’ enablers and apologists. You are far too cavalier in your generalizations, which by the way are part of a long tradition. Along with the “all women are temptresses” trope we have the “she was asking for it” trope, which, again, you haven’t alleged entirely, but saying that women rarely do not play a participatory role in such abuse is getting dangerously close. 

This is a profoundly serious matter which deserves measured and careful discussion, informed by as much data as we can glean, especially if we want to address the emergency in our own communities. Caveat emptor just won’t cut it. 

gosh...


   I don't want to get in a dog fight. Nor am I inclined to be particularly defensive. I worked many years in hospitals, especially with med techs and nurses, who are overwhelmingly female. I've been around the block a few times. My wife was a kindergarten teacher for the same decades. We have dealt with spousal abuse and child abuse aplenty, no need for details. I have lots of horror stories.

   What do I mean by "female sexual predation"? Certainly not "all women are temptresses." I exclude pretty much the post menopausal. (wink)

   Sex is probably the most dangerous topic because people who have been hurt take things personally. You're putting a lot of words in my mouth which are nothing like what I have said. I don't condone or blame anyone.  I can say, in all honesty, I feel your pain in everything you write, and have from the first things of yours that I read.

   I hate to get into particulars, but let me just share two paradigmatic stories which show the extreme cases. There was the case of a young woman fifteen years old who was put into foster care. In three consecutive foster homes she was assaulted sexually by the foster father. The second case involved an anger management class, to which men on probation for certain criminal offenses had to take part. A man got into a fight with the instructor, in which both were injured.

   Was the young woman  a "temptress"? Certainly not in any conscious way; she was apparently quite innocent. Yet three consecutive normally decent and respectable, vetted foster fathers committed criminal offenses which damaged not only her life but theirs and their family's. In the anger management class, a trained professional was drawn in to an angry shouting match resulting in mutual violence.

   Could these men "help themselves"? Apparently not.

   Your common, though brutal, offenses against women and children - and a substantial number of arrests are for women beating men here in hawaii - are usually associated with drugs, nearly always methamphetamines, in a smokable form known as "ice." Again, the stories are sickening, heart breaking, almost beyond belief sometimes.

   I contrasted diana and mars in part to indicate how much more vicious and dangerous male aggression is than female. The implication that (arguably) female sexuality may be just as dangerous has to do with natural selection, the qualities of men that women choose to live with and reproduce. Strong, manly, virile, handsome, commanding, honorable, proud, aggressive men are generally favored over sensitive, soft bodied good providers.

   As for rampant, maybe you don't remember your days of competition, or maybe you led a sheltered life.

   Sexuality isn't all tragedy, especially for the young and hopeful. It isn't all fun and games, but sometimes it seems so. And, fundamentally, sexual urges are at least equally strong in both sexes. Women are mothers, which makes sexuality especially life changing and important. Men, obviously, are eager.

   I think if you saw the issue a little less black and white, it might help you. There is always at least two sides to everything. Nobody grew up thinking, I'm going to be a rapist when I grow up, or I'm going to be a prostitute. Most abuse occurs here under economic pressure. For many locals, life starts to decline immediately after high school, and a good many never get on their feet. All of these people have families who suffer along with them. Blaming the individual is easy, popular and safe. Thus I find it of value to try to see the other sides, the complications, the forces that make people do things they ordinarily know perfectly well are wrong.

   I can't prevent you from turning what I say into standard cliches used by deliberately ignorant people. I have a mostly biological view of sex.  Sex is more than copulation, it is everything we do for our families, our relatives. There is social pressure to "be normal" and have a family, social definitions of "success" and "failure." Men and women both think about sex a great deal, one way or another. Diogenes masturbated in public at least once, he was famous for it, the dog. Someone once reminded him of the deed, and he told them, "I wish I could just rub my belly and relieve hunger."

   Nietzsche once said that man is the animal who can make and keep promises. Many promise lightly, causing the loyal, devoted heart great pain. I know, sister. I'm sorry.


   As for your sense of emergency, well...I'm thinking caveat emptor may have to do, at least for this crusader. If I were tilting at windmills I'd probably start with jim crow.

   Perhaps I am uneducated. Maybe you could fill me in on some of the horrors you feel so strongly about. I'm all ears. Share.


love, terry
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Milo, modified 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 8:48 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 8:39 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 371 Join Date: 11/13/18 Recent Posts
terry:
Laurel Carrington:
aloha laure,:

   On the other hand, not having a "dog in the fight," I'd like to point out the od saw, "pweis an aphrodisiac." That male sexual predation is the primary problem in general socialife I would not dispute. In balance, female sexual predation is even more rapantif (arguably) less harmful to the biosphere. A biologist tends to grade the danger iincementof testosterone, which controls aggression in both sexes. In any case, womeend to throw themselves at men of power, in any field, and men are very vulnerable to tis. he "fog of lst" is like "the fog of war" - one sees little but whom to shoot, and to defend oneself against. And all is fair.

   It is what it is. If disappointing, it should not be surprising. Anthese thigs are rarely as one-sided as the indignant feminist would have itEven so, social predators do not deserve a reputation for enlightenment. Rajneesh spoke eloquently and itelligently even when slurring his words and befuddled on drugs. Choghyatrungpa, whose insight I admire and whose work I still mine for gems, waan alcoholic even in hs best days. Even the best spiritual resume cannot conceal a person's humanity"Fonothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden thawill not be known and come to light."

   Awakened or not we are just men and women. reputation for sanctitmeans little; caveat emptor. As the buddha said in the nirvana sura, think for yourself.


trry


Terry, I am a feminist and I am, in fact, angry. I don’t want to take on your stigmatizing label as an “indignant feminist,” however, which has caused me hesitation in responding to what you’ve said here. But onward I plunge:

I have seen no evidence to the effect that female sexual predation is “even more rampant” than male; in fact, all evidence points the other way. I fully concede that there are many women who are turned on by powerful men and who act on their desires, but the way you have made your point verges dangerously into “all women are temptresses” territory. I acknowledge that you haven’t come out and said as much, but you provide fuel to those who might be inclined to say so. 

Second, “these things are rarely . . . one sided” is another remark for which you have no evidence. From what I know about sexual abuse and rape, thesthings are usually one sided. Women and girls are drawn in by a false front, are socialized to doubt their own truth (I lived in an abusive marriage for 4 years and know whereof I speak), and then are hounded by their abusers’ enablers and apologists. You are far too cavalier in your generalizations, which by the way are part of a long tradition. Along with the “all women are temptresses” trope we have the “she was asking for it” trope, which, againyou haven’t alleged entirely, but saying that women rarely do not play a participatory role in such abuse is getting dangerously close. 

This is a profoundly serious matter which deserves measured and careful discussion, informed by as much data as we can glean, especially if we want to address the emergency in our own communities. Caveat emptor just won’t cut it. 

gosh...


   I don't want to get in a dog fight. Nor am I inclined to be particularly defensive. I worked many years in hospitals, especially with med techs and nurses, who are overwhelmingly female. I've been around the block a few times. My wife was a kindergarten teacher for the same decades. We have dealt with spousal abuse and child abuse aplenty, no need for details. I have lots of horror stories.

   What do I mean by "female sexual predation"? Certainly not "all women are temptresses." I exclude pretty much the post menopausal. (wink)

   Sex is probably the most dangerous topic because people who have been hurt take things personally. You're putting a lot of words in my mouth which are nothing like what I have said. I don't condone or blame anyone.  I can say, in all honesty, I feel your pain in everything you write, and have from the first things of yours that I read.

   I hate to get into particulars, but let me just share two paradigmatic stories which show the extreme cases. There was the case of a young woman fifteen years old who was put into foster care. In three consecutive foster homes she was assaulted sexually by the foster father. The second case involved an anger management class, to which men on probation for certain criminal offenses had to take part. A man got into a fight with the instructor, in which both were injured.

   Was the young woman  a "temptress"? Certainly not in any conscious way; she was apparently quite innocent. Yet three consecutive normally decent and respectable, vetted foster fathers committed criminal offenses which damaged not only her life but theirs and their family's. In the anger management class, a trained professional was drawn in to an angry shouting match resulting in mutual violence.

   Could these men "help themselves"? Apparently not.

   Your common, though brutal, offenses against women and children - and a substantial number of arrests are for women beating men here in hawaii - are usually associated with drugs, nearly always methamphetamines, in a smokable form known as "ice." Again, the stories are sickening, heart breaking, almost beyond belief sometimes.

   I contrasted diana and mars in part to indicate how much more vicious and dangerous male aggression is than female. The implication that (arguably) female sexuality may be just as dangerous has to do with natural selection, the qualities of men that women choose to live with and reproduce. Strong, manly, virile, handsome, commanding, honorable, proud, aggressive men are generally favored over sensitive, soft bodied good providers.

   As for rampant, maybe you don't remember your days of competition, or maybe you led a sheltered life.

   Sexuality isn't all tragedy, especially for the young and hopeful. It isn't all fun and games, but sometimes it seems so. And, fundamentally, sexual urges are at least equally strong in both sexes. Women are mothers, which makes sexuality especially life changing and important. Men, obviously, are eager.

   I think if you saw the issue a little less black and white, it might help you. There is always at least two sides to everything. Nobody grew up thinking, I'm going to be a rapist when I grow up, or I'm going to be a prostitute. Most abuse occurs here under economic pressure. For many locals, life starts to decline immediately after high school, and a good many never get on their feet. All of these people have families who suffer along with them. Blaming the individual is easy, popular and safe. Thus I find it of value to try to see the other sides, the complications, the forces that make people do things they ordinarily know perfectly well are wrong.

   I can't prevent you from turning what I say into standard cliches used by deliberately ignorant people. I have a mostly biological view of sex.  Sex is more than copulation, it is everything we do for our families, our relatives. There is social pressure to "be normal" and have a family, social definitions of "success" and "failure." Men and women both think about sex a great deal, one way or another. Diogenes masturbated in public at least once, he was famous for it, the dog. Someone once reminded him of the deed, and he told them, "I wish I could just rub my belly and relieve hunger."

   Nietzsche once said that man is the animal who can make and keep promises. Many promise lightly, causing the loyal, devoted heart great pain. I know, sister. I'm sorry.


   As for your sense of emergency, well...I'm thinking caveat emptor may have to do, at least for this crusader. If I were tilting at windmills I'd probably start with jim crow.

   Perhaps I am uneducated. Maybe you could fill me in on some of the horrors you feel so strongly about. I'm all ears. Share.


love, terry

Can we set aside the annecdotes here and get real? The VAST majority of reported rape/assault victims are female. 

https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications_nsvrc_factsheet_media-packet_statistics-about-sexual-violence_0.pdf
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 4:28 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 4:28 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 2426 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
[quote=Milo


]Can we set aside the annecdotes here and get real? The VAST majority of reported rape/assault victims are female. 

https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications_nsvrc_factsheet_media-packet_statistics-about-sexual-violence_0.pdf



   Are female stufdents of spiritual teachers being raped in VAST numbers? I didn't know.

   Got figures for that?

terry
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 4:37 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 4:36 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 5117 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Milo:
Can we set aside the annecdotes here and get real? The VAST majority of reported rape/assault victims are female. 

terry:
Are female stufdents of spiritual teachers being raped in VAST numbers? I didn't know.

Italics added by me to highlight the contrast.

emoticon
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 8:03 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 8:03 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 2426 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Milo:
Can we set aside the annecdotes here and get real? The VAST majority of reported rape/assault victims are female. 

terry:
Are female stufdents of spiritual teachers being raped in VAST numbers? I didn't know.

Italics added by me to highlight the contrast.

emoticon

   A more  appropriate contrast might be between all rapes and those perpetrated by spiritual teachers. I'm just trying to get the measure of the problem. Notably, no female predators are throwing themselves at me for my insights, nor have I any potential victims to exploit, that I know of.

   As for yates, if you wouldn't elect a man to public office for his moral failings, why would follow his spiritual teachings? As they used to say about nixon, "Would you buy a used car from this man?" 


terry


  
Sriram Arya, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 11:11 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 11:11 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 31 Join Date: 1/11/12 Recent Posts
Hi Terry,

Are you suggesting that we have to put victims and perpetrators in the same pedestal because some of the perpetrators are more harshly punished ? Also are you advocating that victims do soul searching instead of punishing the perpetrators ?

 I think your view one-sided. I'm not condoning sex crimes. The punishments for such crimes are severe, and applied with a broad brush. The formerly respectable foster fathers were severely punished, especially because they had assumed a position of trust and they failed. Each consecutive perpetrator knew of the child's history, and they still committed these crimes. I was trying to point out that these were foster families, chosen for having roots in the community, and an ethnic affinity to the girl. Many lives were damaged in this particular saga. I feel compassion for all of them. And while sexuality is a given there are root causes of abuse, such as poverty and neglect, that can be better addressed without stirring up further hatred and condemnation.

   Please note, my friend, that these "sexual predators" - vastly male if you narrowly define the class as rapists - are universally hated. This hatred is easy to join in with and won't help us understand or have compassion for people who are suffering. Nazis, slave holders and rapists all suffer and need compassion. Think of the tibetan monks who are sorry for the chinese torturers and rapists, "the poor chinese, creating such terrible karma for themselves." Such terrible karma... for us all. How can we prevent this? More punishment, more social condemnation? Or more understanding, more soul searching, and broadening the base of those who care?

IOW, There are some very fine people on both sides, Eh?

~Sriram.
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Milo, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 6:10 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 6:08 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 371 Join Date: 11/13/18 Recent Posts
terry:
[quote=Milo


]Can we set aside the annecdotes here and get real? The VAST majority of reported rape/assault victims are female. 

https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications_nsvrc_factsheet_media-packet_statistics-about-sexual-violence_0.pdf




   Are female stufdents of spiritual teachers being raped in VAST numbers? I didn't know.

   Got figures for that?

terry

----

I sure don't, though wouldn't that be an interesting study? Was replying in the context of 'female sexual predation being equally common in the biosphere.' At least for the human animal, this isn't borne out in statistics, nor by the 'sniff test' IMHO. Following the principle of treating teachers as being morally fallible, combined with the fact that we have (Largely male) individuals in positions of power, do you think it's unreasonable to assume that abuse continues to occur and that the majority of the victims are women?

I seriously doubt it's your intention, and I apologize for the salt in my reply, but that kind of take does tend to cause people to tee off since it's often used as a deflection by men (Of which I am one) to avoid owning up to the fact that this a 90% male problem. Who is going to solve it if we don't 'man up' to this?
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 6:53 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 6:53 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 2426 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Milo:
terry:
[quote=Milo


]Can we set aside the annecdotes here and get real? The VAST majority of reported rape/assault victims are female. 

https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications_nsvrc_factsheet_media-packet_statistics-about-sexual-violence_0.pdf




   Are female stufdents of spiritual teachers being raped in VAST numbers? I didn't know.

   Got figures for that?

terry

----

I sure don't, though wouldn't that be an interesting study? Was replying in the context of 'female sexual predation being equally common in the biosphere.' At least for the human animal, this isn't borne out in statistics, nor by the 'sniff test' IMHO. Following the principle of treating teachers as being morally fallible, combined with the fact that we have (Largely male) individuals in positions of power, do you think it's unreasonable to assume that abuse continues to occur and that the majority of the victims are women?

I seriously doubt it's your intention, and I apologize for the salt in my reply, but that kind of take does tend to cause people to tee off since it's often used as a deflection by men (Of which I am one) to avoid owning up to the fact that this a 90% male problem. Who is going to solve it if we don't 'man up' to this?


   One way or another brother, it is not a 90% male problem. I think that perception is part of the problem. We're all in this together. And if there haven't been any studies, what are we talking about?

   If we are going to change, men and women will have to change together, with humor, mutual respect and understanding.

   If we call male sexual offenders "predators" and don't call the female sexual offenders "predators," then of course the VAST majority are men. The word "predator" is mostly misused. People aren't being killed and eaten. Most rapes are not premeditated. Most of the victims are known to their assailants. They have histories. Real lives, complicated ones. In the absence of compassion, all nuances disappear. As they say in texas, "goat ropers need love too." Someone has to defend "sexual predators" from unreasoning hatred.

   People who commit real crimes that really hurt people are sick. I have worked in many emergency rooms and have often seen truly crazy people end up there. In most er's the police are called, and the crazies are dragged off and put in a cell at the police station, and all of the er staff feel quite badly about it. In the er at wilcox hospital on kauai, where I worked two years, they blessedly call in mental health professionals for such cases who appear to have something of a miraculous ability to calm the poor souls down and get them stabilized and cooperative, and they lead them off to everyone's relief. Crazy people destablize the mental functioning of normal people, and are feared even by health professionals, unless they are quite familiar with their ways.

   I just don't see pure rejection as appropriate for any group, no matter how vile.


terry



Tombstone Blues
(Bob Dylan)

The sweet pretty things are in bed now, of course
The city fathers, they're trying to endorse
The reincarnation of Paul Revere's horse
But the town has no need to be nervous
The ghost of Belle Starr, she hands down her wits
To Jezebel the nun, she violently knits
A bald wig for Jack the Ripper, who sits
At the head of the Chamber of Commerce
Mama's in the factory, she ain't got no shoes
Daddy's in the alley, he's lookin' for food
I'm in the kitchen with the tombstone blues
The hysterical bride in the penny arcade
Screaming, she moans, "I've just been made"
Then sends out for the doctor, who pulls down the shade
And says, "My advice is to not let the boys in"
Now, the medicine man comes and he shuffles inside
He walks with a swagger and he says to the bride
"Stop all this weeping, swallow your pride
You will not die, it's not poison"
Mama's in the factory, she ain't got no shoes
Daddy's in the alley, he's lookin' for food
I'm in the kitchen with the tombstone blues
Well, John the Baptist, after torturing a thief
Looks up at his hero, the Commander-in-Chief
Saying, "Tell me, great hero, but please make it brief
Is there a hole for me to get sick in?"
The Commander-in-Chief answers him while chasing a fly
Saying, "Death to all those who would whimper and cry"
And, dropping a barbell, he points to the sky
Saying, "The sun's not yellow, it's chicken"
Mama's in the factory, she ain't got no shoes
Daddy's in the alley, he's lookin' for food
I'm in the kitchen with the tombstone blues
The king of the Philistines, his soldiers to save
Puts jawbones on their tombstones and flatters their graves
Puts the pied pipers in prison and fattens the slaves
Then sends them out to the jungle
Gypsy Davey with a blowtorch, he burns out their camps
With his faithful slave Pedro behind him, he tramps
With a fantastic collection of stamps
To win friends and influence his uncle
Mama's in the factory, she ain't got no shoes
Daddy's in the alley, he's lookin' for food
I'm in trouble with the tombstone blues
The geometry of innocence, flesh on the bone
Causes Galileo's math book to get thrown
At Delilah, who's sitting worthlessly alone
But the tears on her cheeks are from laughter
I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after
Mama's in the factory, she ain't got no shoes
Daddy's in the alley, he's lookin' for food
I'm in the kitchen with the tombstone blues
Where Ma Rainey and Beethoven once unwrapped their bedroll
Tuba players now rehearse around the flagpole
And the National Bank at a profit sells road maps for the soul
To the old folks' home and the college
Now, I wish I could write you a melody so plain
That could hold you, dear lady, from going insane
That could ease you and cool you and cease the pain
Of your useless and pointless knowledge
Mama's in the factory, she ain't got no shoes
Daddy's in the alley, he's lookin' for food
I'm in the kitchen with the tombstone blues, oh right

Songwriters: B. Dylan
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Milo, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 11:37 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 11:27 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 371 Join Date: 11/13/18 Recent Posts
terry:
Milo:
terry:
[quote=Milo


]Can we set aside the annecdotes here and get real? The VAST majority of reported rape/assault victims are female. 

https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications_nsvrc_factsheet_media-packet_statistics-about-sexual-violence_0.pdf




   Are female stufdents of spiritual teachers being raped in VAST numbers? I didn't know.

   Got figures for that?

terry

----

I sure don't, though wouldn't that be an interesting study? Was replying in the context of 'female sexual predation being equally common in the biosphere.' At least for the human animal, this isn't borne out in statistics, nor by the 'sniff test' IMHO. Following the principle of treating teachers as being morally fallible, combined with the fact that we have (Largely male) individuals in positions of power, do you think it's unreasonable to assume that abuse continues to occur and that the majority of the victims are women?

I seriously doubt it's your intention, and I apologize for the salt in my reply, but that kind of take does tend to cause people to tee off since it's often used as a deflection by men (Of which I am one) to avoid owning up to the fact that this a 90% male problem. Who is going to solve it if we don't 'man up' to this?


   One way or another brother, it is not a 90% male problem. I think that perception is part of the problem. We're all in this together. And if there haven't been any studies, what are we talking about?

   If we are going to change, men and women will have to change together, with humor, mutual respect and understanding.

   If we call male sexual offenders "predators" and don't call the female sexual offenders "predators," then of course the VAST majority are men. The word "predator" is mostly misused. People aren't being killed and eaten. Most rapes are not premeditated. Most of the victims are known to their assailants. They have histories. Real lives, complicated ones. In the absence of compassion, all nuances disappear. As they say in texas, "goat ropers need love too." Someone has to defend "sexual predators" from unreasoning hatred.

   People who commit real crimes that really hurt people are sick. I have worked in many emergency rooms and have often seen truly crazy people end up there. In most er's the police are called, and the crazies are dragged off and put in a cell at the police station, and all of the er staff feel quite badly about it. In the er at wilcox hospital on kauai, where I worked two years, they blessedly call in mental health professionals for such cases who appear to have something of a miraculous ability to calm the poor souls down and get them stabilized and cooperative, and they lead them off to everyone's relief. Crazy people destablize the mental functioning of normal people, and are feared even by health professionals, unless they are quite familiar with their ways.

   I just don't see pure rejection as appropriate for any group, no matter how vile.


terry



Tombstone Blues
(Bob Dylan)

The sweet pretty things are in bed now, of course
The city fathers, they're trying to endorse
The reincarnation of Paul Revere's horse
But the town has no need to be nervous
The ghost of Belle Starr, she hands down her wits
To Jezebel the nun, she violently knits
A bald wig for Jack the Ripper, who sits
At the head of the Chamber of Commerce
Mama's in the factory, she ain't got no shoes
Daddy's in the alley, he's lookin' for food
I'm in the kitchen with the tombstone blues
The hysterical bride in the penny arcade
Screaming, she moans, "I've just been made"
Then sends out for the doctor, who pulls down the shade
And says, "My advice is to not let the boys in"
Now, the medicine man comes and he shuffles inside
He walks with a swagger and he says to the bride
"Stop all this weeping, swallow your pride
You will not die, it's not poison"
Mama's in the factory, she ain't got no shoes
Daddy's in the alley, he's lookin' for food
I'm in the kitchen with the tombstone blues
Well, John the Baptist, after torturing a thief
Looks up at his hero, the Commander-in-Chief
Saying, "Tell me, great hero, but please make it brief
Is there a hole for me to get sick in?"
The Commander-in-Chief answers him while chasing a fly
Saying, "Death to all those who would whimper and cry"
And, dropping a barbell, he points to the sky
Saying, "The sun's not yellow, it's chicken"
Mama's in the factory, she ain't got no shoes
Daddy's in the alley, he's lookin' for food
I'm in the kitchen with the tombstone blues
The king of the Philistines, his soldiers to save
Puts jawbones on their tombstones and flatters their graves
Puts the pied pipers in prison and fattens the slaves
Then sends them out to the jungle
Gypsy Davey with a blowtorch, he burns out their camps
With his faithful slave Pedro behind him, he tramps
With a fantastic collection of stamps
To win friends and influence his uncle
Mama's in the factory, she ain't got no shoes
Daddy's in the alley, he's lookin' for food
I'm in trouble with the tombstone blues
The geometry of innocence, flesh on the bone
Causes Galileo's math book to get thrown
At Delilah, who's sitting worthlessly alone
But the tears on her cheeks are from laughter
I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after
Mama's in the factory, she ain't got no shoes
Daddy's in the alley, he's lookin' for food
I'm in the kitchen with the tombstone blues
Where Ma Rainey and Beethoven once unwrapped their bedroll
Tuba players now rehearse around the flagpole
And the National Bank at a profit sells road maps for the soul
To the old folks' home and the college
Now, I wish I could write you a melody so plain
That could hold you, dear lady, from going insane
That could ease you and cool you and cease the pain
Of your useless and pointless knowledge
Mama's in the factory, she ain't got no shoes
Daddy's in the alley, he's lookin' for food
I'm in the kitchen with the tombstone blues, oh right

Songwriters: B. Dylan

Who said we wouldn't call female sexual offenders predators? They are comparatively rare but not unheard of. They have a different profile than male predators in that they tend to abuse children and/or to act in partnership with a male predator. The high profile ones I can think of have been school teachers, and they've gone to prison for it. Seems a lot less likely you'd encounter a female predator in a dharma teacher context given the profile, but yeah, if you find one you'll have no argument from me that they should be held accountable.

What I'm trying to say is not that we should not hold that 10% of assaults/rapes accountable, but that focusing on the 90% would have an outsize effect on dealing with the problem. As men, we have an opportunity (Some might say a responsibility) to take point on that on as our project, and address it through changing male culture. It's all too easy for us to say things like "But they do it to!" and use that as our excuse to sweep the bulk of the problem back under the rug. And we're pros at that tactic.

As far as the compassion angle, what do you suggest? I've personally known several sexual predators. All of them were men. All of them seemed like 'nice guys.' All of them blended into society and were seemingly normal before their actions came to light. All of them abused, extorted, harassed, and/or assaulted dozens of women. All of them freely admitted what they had done once they were caught. After they were caught, the talk around the water cooler with my fellow men was all about how terrible it was for them, how nobody could have seen it coming, and how it was awful that it would damage their lives and careers, not about the victims or how to prevent it in the future. This is concerning. I'm looking for some kind of practical solution to these problems in the dharma community and in society at large, but the attitude I see from my fellow men is not encouraging. What kind of message are we sending to future would be offenders?

I'll add that I do see the merit in nuance and compassion in situations you describe. Every one of these situations is different. So how do we fix the cultural problems without burning people in those marginal situations where no one is really at fault?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/22/19 2:14 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/22/19 2:14 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Milo:
terry:
Milo:
terry:
[quote=Milo


]Can we set aside the annecdotes here and get real? The VAST majority of reported rape/assault victims are female. 

https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications_nsvrc_factsheet_media-packet_statistics-about-sexual-violence_0.pdf




   Are female stufdents of spiritual teachers being raped in VAST numbers? I didn't know.

   Got figures for that?

terry

----

I sure don't, though wouldn't that be an interesting study? Was replying in the context of 'female sexual predation being equally common in the biosphere.' At least for the human animal, this isn't borne out in statistics, nor by the 'sniff test' IMHO. Following the principle of treating teachers as being morally fallible, combined with the fact that we have (Largely male) individuals in positions of power, do you think it's unreasonable to assume that abuse continues to occur and that the majority of the victims are women?

I seriously doubt it's your intention, and I apologize for the salt in my reply, but that kind of take does tend to cause people to tee off since it's often used as a deflection by men (Of which I am one) to avoid owning up to the fact that this a 90% male problem. Who is going to solve it if we don't 'man up' to this?


   One way or another brother, it is not a 90% male problem. I think that perception is part of the problem. We're all in this together. And if there haven't been any studies, what are we talking about?

   If we are going to change, men and women will have to change together, with humor, mutual respect and understanding.

   If we call male sexual offenders "predators" and don't call the female sexual offenders "predators," then of course the VAST majority are men. The word "predator" is mostly misused. People aren't being killed and eaten. Most rapes are not premeditated. Most of the victims are known to their assailants. They have histories. Real lives, complicated ones. In the absence of compassion, all nuances disappear. As they say in texas, "goat ropers need love too." Someone has to defend "sexual predators" from unreasoning hatred.

   People who commit real crimes that really hurt people are sick. I have worked in many emergency rooms and have often seen truly crazy people end up there. In most er's the police are called, and the crazies are dragged off and put in a cell at the police station, and all of the er staff feel quite badly about it. In the er at wilcox hospital on kauai, where I worked two years, they blessedly call in mental health professionals for such cases who appear to have something of a miraculous ability to calm the poor souls down and get them stabilized and cooperative, and they lead them off to everyone's relief. Crazy people destablize the mental functioning of normal people, and are feared even by health professionals, unless they are quite familiar with their ways.

   I just don't see pure rejection as appropriate for any group, no matter how vile.


terry



Tombstone Blues
(Bob Dylan)

The sweet pretty things are in bed now, of course
The city fathers, they're trying to endorse
The reincarnation of Paul Revere's horse
But the town has no need to be nervous
The ghost of Belle Starr, she hands down her wits
To Jezebel the nun, she violently knits
A bald wig for Jack the Ripper, who sits
At the head of the Chamber of Commerce
Mama's in the factory, she ain't got no shoes
Daddy's in the alley, he's lookin' for food
I'm in the kitchen with the tombstone blues
The hysterical bride in the penny arcade
Screaming, she moans, "I've just been made"
Then sends out for the doctor, who pulls down the shade
And says, "My advice is to not let the boys in"
Now, the medicine man comes and he shuffles inside
He walks with a swagger and he says to the bride
"Stop all this weeping, swallow your pride
You will not die, it's not poison"
Mama's in the factory, she ain't got no shoes
Daddy's in the alley, he's lookin' for food
I'm in the kitchen with the tombstone blues
Well, John the Baptist, after torturing a thief
Looks up at his hero, the Commander-in-Chief
Saying, "Tell me, great hero, but please make it brief
Is there a hole for me to get sick in?"
The Commander-in-Chief answers him while chasing a fly
Saying, "Death to all those who would whimper and cry"
And, dropping a barbell, he points to the sky
Saying, "The sun's not yellow, it's chicken"
Mama's in the factory, she ain't got no shoes
Daddy's in the alley, he's lookin' for food
I'm in the kitchen with the tombstone blues
The king of the Philistines, his soldiers to save
Puts jawbones on their tombstones and flatters their graves
Puts the pied pipers in prison and fattens the slaves
Then sends them out to the jungle
Gypsy Davey with a blowtorch, he burns out their camps
With his faithful slave Pedro behind him, he tramps
With a fantastic collection of stamps
To win friends and influence his uncle
Mama's in the factory, she ain't got no shoes
Daddy's in the alley, he's lookin' for food
I'm in trouble with the tombstone blues
The geometry of innocence, flesh on the bone
Causes Galileo's math book to get thrown
At Delilah, who's sitting worthlessly alone
But the tears on her cheeks are from laughter
I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after
Mama's in the factory, she ain't got no shoes
Daddy's in the alley, he's lookin' for food
I'm in the kitchen with the tombstone blues
Where Ma Rainey and Beethoven once unwrapped their bedroll
Tuba players now rehearse around the flagpole
And the National Bank at a profit sells road maps for the soul
To the old folks' home and the college
Now, I wish I could write you a melody so plain
That could hold you, dear lady, from going insane
That could ease you and cool you and cease the pain
Of your useless and pointless knowledge
Mama's in the factory, she ain't got no shoes
Daddy's in the alley, he's lookin' for food
I'm in the kitchen with the tombstone blues, oh right

Songwriters: B. Dylan

Who said we wouldn't call female sexual offenders predators? They are comparatively rare but not unheard of. They have a different profile than male predators in that they tend to abuse children and/or to act in partnership with a male predator. The high profile ones I can think of have been school teachers, and they've gone to prison for it. Seems a lot less likely you'd encounter a female predator in a dharma teacher context given the profile, but yeah, if you find one you'll have no argument from me that they should be held accountable.

What I'm trying to say is not that we should not hold that 10% of assaults/rapes accountable, but that focusing on the 90% would have an outsize effect on dealing with the problem. As men, we have an opportunity (Some might say a responsibility) to take point on that on as our project, and address it through changing male culture. It's all too easy for us to say things like "But they do it to!" and use that as our excuse to sweep the bulk of the problem back under the rug. And we're pros at that tactic.

As far as the compassion angle, what do you suggest? I've personally known several sexual predators. All of them were men. All of them seemed like 'nice guys.' All of them blended into society and were seemingly normal before their actions came to light. All of them abused, extorted, harassed, and/or assaulted dozens of women. All of them freely admitted what they had done once they were caught. After they were caught, the talk around the water cooler with my fellow men was all about how terrible it was for them, how nobody could have seen it coming, and how it was awful that it would damage their lives and careers, not about the victims or how to prevent it in the future. This is concerning. I'm looking for some kind of practical solution to these problems in the dharma community and in society at large, but the attitude I see from my fellow men is not encouraging. What kind of message are we sending to future would be offenders?

I'll add that I do see the merit in nuance and compassion in situations you describe. Every one of these situations is different. So how do we fix the cultural problems without burning people in those marginal situations where no one is really at fault?


Thankyou for seeing this! <3
Jens Theisen, modified 4 Years ago at 9/22/19 3:28 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/22/19 3:27 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 23 Join Date: 9/12/19 Recent Posts
[quote=As men, we have an opportunity &#40;Some might say a responsibility&#41; to take point on that on as our project, and address it through changing male culture. It&#039;s all too easy for us to say things like &#034;But they do it to!&#034; and use that as our excuse to sweep the bulk of the problem back under the rug. And we&#039;re pros at that tactic. 
]

Only very recently, and only in America.

Historically and everywhere else in the world, the idea that women prey on men sexually was and is considered absurd.

You contemporary Americans are really the only ones who went down that road.

I live in Germany, and the cases of pretty, young women going to prison for having "abused" a horny teenager are considered an American legal pathology for most I would say.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 1:06 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 12:50 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Terry, please, if you really aim at doing the least damage everyday, which I believe you do (I do that pretty often too, albeit not everyday), please don’t shift the focus to ”female predation” in the context of discussing men’s sexual abuse of women. And please do not focus on seeing the other side of the story when an oppressed group is abused, and please do not imply that those who want to shift the focus back to the real issue are thinking in black and white (or indignant for that matter). The victims are in most cases still struggling to get anyone to see it from their side. I’m sure you mean well, but this is much more harmful than you realize, because just like Laurel pointed out, it strengthens tropes that have been used to discredit abused women in many generations, and it neglects the power dynamics at play. As for the example with the ”decent and respectable” fathers who couldn’t ”help themselves” around young girls depending on them and already vulnerable, what was that?! If an easy victim, one that they can blame because it happened to them before, is so irresistible for them, they shouldn’t be around vulnerable young girls.

I’m not a woman, but non-binary, but I am a feminist too, because oppression is wrong. Taking advantage of privilege and refusing to see it is wrong. I try hard to work with myself with regard to all kinds of oppression that I contribute to and right that wrong to the best of my ability. Harmful power dynamics permeate the society and I’m not as innocent as I would like to be, but I’m learning. Seeing power dynamics has nothing to do with being indignant (of course there are always some individuals in any movement that feed on the anger, but that does not make the social issue less valid).
Jens Theisen, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 5:08 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 5:08 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 23 Join Date: 9/12/19 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
...please don’t shift the focus to ”female predation” in the context of discussing men’s sexual abuse of women. 
The context is Culadasa's lying and sleeping around, not the sexual abuse of women.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 5:37 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 5:37 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Jens Theisen:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
...please don’t shift the focus to ”female predation” in the context of discussing men’s sexual abuse of women. 
The context is Culadasa's lying and sleeping around, not the sexual abuse of women.



No, the local context was what Laurel brought up. The context has shifted many times throughout this thread. If one wants to reply to something earlier, it’s a good idea not to reply to a person talking about something urgent and sensitive.
Jens Theisen, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 5:52 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 5:52 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 23 Join Date: 9/12/19 Recent Posts
So the thread was shifted once from "sleeping around" to "abusing women", but it's really bad for Terry to shift it once more to "abuse in general".

Well, you can demand that, but I think only people without a backbone would obey you.
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Not two, not one, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 6:38 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 6:38 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 1038 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
Jens Theisen:
Well, you can demand that, but I think only people without a backbone would obey you.
Jens, what is your agenda here?  This seems a bit needlessly inflammatory.  But maybe I am misreading something ...
 
Jens Theisen, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 7:13 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 7:13 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 23 Join Date: 9/12/19 Recent Posts
My agenda behind the comment is merely my anger at the usual "all men are evil" trope that is oozing into this thread - completely unfairly, because Culadasa didn't even do anything bad except breaking commitments - and that's none of my business.

I grew up in a feminist social milieu, so when somebody tells me (or somebody else) to shut up because "they just don't get how much women suffer" or something, I take it personally. What does anyone know about how much other people suffer? Such people are merely employing a psychological intimidation trick, although I do allow that they may well be not aware of that themselves.

My agenda on this site in general is that I'm seeking rational, materialist, pragmatic, scientific, problem and goal-oriented people who I could potentially learn from to fix the serious character issues I see in myself.
thumbnail
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 9:08 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 9:08 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Jens Theisen:
My agenda behind the comment is merely my anger at the usual "all men are evil" trope that is oozing into this thread - completely unfairly, because Culadasa didn't even do anything bad except breaking commitments - and that's none of my business.

I grew up in a feminist social milieu, so when somebody tells me (or somebody else) to shut up because "they just don't get how much women suffer" or something, I take it personally. What does anyone know about how much other people suffer? Such people are merely employing a psychological intimidation trick, although I do allow that they may well be not aware of that themselves.

My agenda on this site in general is that I'm seeking rational, materialist, pragmatic, scientific, problem and goal-oriented people who I could potentially learn from to fix the serious character issues I see in myself.


You are on a forum highly dominated by men, so if it bothers you that much that one of the few women wants to talk a little about the all too common abuse of female dharma students without being minimized, I suggest you just scroll past it or read any of the other several thousand threads.
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 1:50 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 1:42 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 5117 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
... Culadasa didn't even do anything bad except breaking commitments - and that's none of my business.

From the original Dharma Treasure board of directors letter to the public:

In a series of Board meetings as well as written correspondences with Mr. Yates, he admitted to being involved in a pattern of sexual misconduct in the form of adultery. There is no evidence that this adultery involved improper interactions with students or any form of unwanted sexual advances. Rather, adultery with multiple women, some of whom are sex workers, took place over the past four years. The outcome was extended relationships with a group of about ten women. Relationships with some continue to the present day.

He has provided significant financial support to some of these women, a portion of which was given without the prior knowledge or consent of his wife. Mr. Yates also said he engaged in false speech by responding to his wife’s questions with admissions, partial truths, and lies during these years.
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Not two, not one, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 2:04 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 2:04 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 1038 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
Jens Theisen:
My agenda behind the comment is merely my anger at the usual "all men are evil" trope that is oozing into this thread - completely unfairly, because Culadasa didn't even do anything bad except breaking commitments - and that's none of my business.

I grew up in a feminist social milieu, so when somebody tells me (or somebody else) to shut up because "they just don't get how much women suffer" or something, I take it personally. What does anyone know about how much other people suffer? Such people are merely employing a psychological intimidation trick, although I do allow that they may well be not aware of that themselves.

My agenda on this site in general is that I'm seeking rational, materialist, pragmatic, scientific, problem and goal-oriented people who I could potentially learn from to fix the serious character issues I see in myself.
Great description Jens!  Thanks for replying.  If I can move away from specific content to insight ... this is precisely our project. To notice what is going on in the way we construct our sense of self and interact with the world. To observe it clearly and eventually see it operating in real time. And then to see right through it to switch to a better mode of operation, and free ourselves from slavery to our cravings and aversions. 

There are many practices to encourage this, and nobody does all of them. But one thing you can do is notice how impulses arise from patterns of behaviour and actions that are burned in by past experience (sankharas). Watch them get triggered by events.

See how the sense data evokes the sankhara or concept
And then how this evokes an attraction or aversion response
And how this evokes a thirst for a conceptual goal
And then this inflames the being
And how this leads to an urge
And how acting on the urge in the midst of passion burns in the sankhara deeper so leads to more dissatisfaction, not less.
And how observing and renouncing, letting go, of that urge instead leads to much more happiness.
This is insight.

Now, none of this is to deny your lived experience. But equally, notice how careful, thoughtful and respectful Laurel and Linda/Polly's replies were. So this is maybe not quite the same environment as that which created the sankharas.  And equally notice your own insight into this situation, which has the kernels of great progress.

If you can combine your concentration practice with insight into your daily reactions, you will do very well.

With love

Malcolm
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 7:05 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 7:05 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 2426 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Jens Theisen:
My agenda behind the comment is merely my anger at the usual "all men are evil" trope that is oozing into this thread - completely unfairly, because Culadasa didn't even do anything bad except breaking commitments - and that's none of my business.

I grew up in a feminist social milieu, so when somebody tells me (or somebody else) to shut up because "they just don't get how much women suffer" or something, I take it personally. What does anyone know about how much other people suffer? Such people are merely employing a psychological intimidation trick, although I do allow that they may well be not aware of that themselves.

My agenda on this site in general is that I'm seeking rational, materialist, pragmatic, scientific, problem and goal-oriented people who I could potentially learn from to fix the serious character issues I see in myself.

mahalos for your inputs, bra...

the "men are 90% of the problem when it comes to sexuality" trope is purely sexist, in my view, though I am not angry about it...

I like to think I can see both sides, but that is why we discuss these things...

anyone who hates anyone ought to examine their feelings...

t
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 9:04 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 9:04 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Jens Theisen:
So the thread was shifted once from "sleeping around" to "abusing women", but it's really bad for Terry to shift it once more to "abuse in general".

Well, you can demand that, but I think only people without a backbone would obey you.



I wouldn’t dream of demanding anything, but since I know that terry is a person who cares about ideals and compassion, I brought it up. If I didn’t hold him in high regard, I wouldn’t bother.

The shift wasn’t from sleeping around to abusing women but from a general discussion of dharma teachers that have misbehaved, many of whom (Culadasa not included) have predated on female students. From there to men’s sexual abuse of women, the step wasn’t that big. Sexual abuse in general is very much dominated by men’s abuse of women, which terry also acknowledged. Going from there to emphasizing women’s predatory behavior and exemplifying it with a young foster girl being abused by three different step fathers was just a little too much for my taste, but hey, to each their own.
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 7:29 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 7:29 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 2426 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Jens Theisen:
So the thread was shifted once from "sleeping around" to "abusing women", but it's really bad for Terry to shift it once more to "abuse in general".

Well, you can demand that, but I think only people without a backbone would obey you.



I wouldn’t dream of demanding anything, but since I know that terry is a person who cares about ideals and compassion, I brought it up. If I didn’t hold him in high regard, I wouldn’t bother.

The shift wasn’t from sleeping around to abusing women but from a general discussion of dharma teachers that have misbehaved, many of whom (Culadasa not included) have predated on female students. From there to men’s sexual abuse of women, the step wasn’t that big. Sexual abuse in general is very much dominated by men’s abuse of women, which terry also acknowledged. Going from there to emphasizing women’s predatory behavior and exemplifying it with a young foster girl being abused by three different step fathers was just a little too much for my taste, but hey, to each their own.

   Of course, simply taking up such subjects allows people to misunderstand in really unfortunate ways. I never said nor implied the 15 year old victim of three consecutive assaults by her foster fathers was in any way a sexual predator - quite the contrary, I said she was quite innocent, as was established in court (this was a real case, a sensation here for awhile). I was trying to point to the really biological nature of this crime, which is taken completely as a form of moral depravity. When we think of these people as predators, then we think of them as committing serial crimes. In this case we have a serial victim. I thought it shed light on the real dynamics of the problem, and on the inappropriateness of the conventional view. The poor girl, innocent as she is, is still part of the problem. If this problem is not addressed, and it probably isn't and won't be, the grl and other similar girls will likely suffer further assaults in the future. Such potential victims should be pro-actively protected, and understood to be at risk

   Clearing the fog of hatred won't allow the perps to skate; it may help protect potential victims from abuse.


terry
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/22/19 2:10 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/22/19 2:10 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Jens Theisen:
So the thread was shifted once from "sleeping around" to "abusing women", but it's really bad for Terry to shift it once more to "abuse in general".

Well, you can demand that, but I think only people without a backbone would obey you.



I wouldn’t dream of demanding anything, but since I know that terry is a person who cares about ideals and compassion, I brought it up. If I didn’t hold him in high regard, I wouldn’t bother.

The shift wasn’t from sleeping around to abusing women but from a general discussion of dharma teachers that have misbehaved, many of whom (Culadasa not included) have predated on female students. From there to men’s sexual abuse of women, the step wasn’t that big. Sexual abuse in general is very much dominated by men’s abuse of women, which terry also acknowledged. Going from there to emphasizing women’s predatory behavior and exemplifying it with a young foster girl being abused by three different step fathers was just a little too much for my taste, but hey, to each their own.

   Of course, simply taking up such subjects allows people to misunderstand in really unfortunate ways. I never said nor implied the 15 year old victim of three consecutive assaults by her foster fathers was in any way a sexual predator - quite the contrary, I said she was quite innocent, as was established in court (this was a real case, a sensation here for awhile). I was trying to point to the really biological nature of this crime, which is taken completely as a form of moral depravity. When we think of these people as predators, then we think of them as committing serial crimes. In this case we have a serial victim. I thought it shed light on the real dynamics of the problem, and on the inappropriateness of the conventional view. The poor girl, innocent as she is, is still part of the problem. If this problem is not addressed, and it probably isn't and won't be, the grl and other similar girls will likely suffer further assaults in the future. Such potential victims should be pro-actively protected, and understood to be at risk

   Clearing the fog of hatred won't allow the perps to skate; it may help protect potential victims from abuse.


terry


I believe you, terry, and appreciate your clarification, but I don’t agree with you with regard to the causes. I don’t believe biology has that effect on men. That would mean that men are predators by nature, and that’s not my experience at all. I think it is mainly a structural and social problem, the former having to do with power dynamics and the latter with shared storylines that make up our reality. We are limited by the stories we tell. If we say that men can’t help it around some young girls, that belief puts limitations to men’s restraint and moral capacity. I think higher of men than that. Feminism does not equal hate. For many (most?) of us it is the conviction that we can tell better and less limiting stories than this.
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Laurel Carrington, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 9:03 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 9:00 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/7/14 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Jens Theisen:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
...please don’t shift the focus to ”female predation” in the context of discussing men’s sexual abuse of women. 
The context is Culadasa's lying and sleeping around, not the sexual abuse of women.



No, the local context was what Laurel brought up. The context has shifted many times throughout this thread. If one wants to reply to something earlier, it’s a good idea not to reply to a person talking about something urgent and sensitive.

Since I have been at least partly responsible for the shift in tone, I went back on this thread in order to reconstruct where and how that happened. What I discovered is that the discussion of the Culadasa case naturally evolved to a discussion of arhats (or people with insight, enlightened people, whatever) in general and their capacity for bad behavior. On September 13, page 11, Santiago announced a new thread on that topic, but of course people continued to talk about it on this thread as well. On page 14, curious made a remark with which I took issue (and I want to add here that I respect curious for his many posts on this forum that are of great value. I do not mean to jump down his throat in any way; I just disagreed with how he expressed himself there). 

Meanwhile, on the waking up and growing up thread, Sasaki Roshi’s case came up. I remember that case as being especially egregious for the extent of the collusion in the sangha itself, with many of his followers telling Sasaki’s victims to sit down and shut up. Starting on page 3 of that thread, I posted about that case and got invested in thinking that anyone doing such things couldn’t possibly be enlightened, went back and forth for awhile, and then finally realized I could no longer hold onto that view. David Carse’s comments in Perfect Brilliant Stillness became a flash point for my change of view. I and others posted about the sexual abuse of women students in Buddhist circles, which I referred to (and still consider) as an emergency. 

On this thread, terry weighed in, and I gave it a day and then answered him, terry responded, and then Linda, and now here we are. 

What to say going forward? First, I do not believe that all men are evil; far from it. What I was responding to in terry’s post was something specific that I believed could lead to making the argument that women are complicit in their own abuse. Let me clarify: these matters are indeed complicated, far too much to be thrashed out to anyone’s satisfaction here; they are likely to get people riled up and on the defensive (my hand in the air here); and there are underlying systems—social, economic, biological—that we don’t fully understand. Terry noted pain in what I write; whenever there is defensiveness or anger there is pain, and pain over these matters is widespread. I feel pain on behalf of others and for myself. 

I’ll conclude by saying that I take these things seriously, and I believe the dharma is not well served by minimizing them, simplifying them, or sweeping them under the rug. At the moment, though, I’d like to see us pivot back to Culadasa’s case, for the sake of clarity. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 9:16 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 9:16 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I saw now that you wish to move the focus back to Culadasa now, Laurel, so I appologize if I made you feel uncomfortable. I didn’t mean to hold you responsible for the topic shift. As you said, it was a gradual shift.

I think you brought up very important issues, Laurel, and in a nuanced way.
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Laurel Carrington, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 9:30 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 9:30 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/7/14 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I saw now that you wish to move the focus back to Culadasa now, Laurel, so I appologize if I made you feel uncomfortable. I didn’t mean to hold you responsible for the topic shift. As you said, it was a gradual shift.

I think you brought up very important issues, Laurel, and in a nuanced way.

You do not need to apologize to me, nor have you made me uncomfortable! But in the past, this forum has gotten into a lot of trouble with slugfests over gender, and while I don’t want to cut off any such discussion, I also don’t want to see it happen again. 

I do appreciate what you’ve said here and I appreciate your passion, which I feel as well. We all have our vulnerabilities, and you are a wonderful asset here for the way you are right out there with your own. I believe in doing the same; Jens has done so as well. I want to renew my commitment to the community here and to our common interests. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 12:07 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 12:04 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Laurel Carrington:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I saw now that you wish to move the focus back to Culadasa now, Laurel, so I appologize if I made you feel uncomfortable. I didn’t mean to hold you responsible for the topic shift. As you said, it was a gradual shift.

I think you brought up very important issues, Laurel, and in a nuanced way.

You do not need to apologize to me, nor have you made me uncomfortable! But in the past, this forum has gotten into a lot of trouble with slugfests over gender, and while I don’t want to cut off any such discussion, I also don’t want to see it happen again. 

I do appreciate what you’ve said here and I appreciate your passion, which I feel as well. We all have our vulnerabilities, and you are a wonderful asset here for the way you are right out there with your own. I believe in doing the same; Jens has done so as well. I want to renew my commitment to the community here and to our common interests. 


Oh, I’m glad. And thankyou for your kind words and right back at you! emoticon

As for the former gender slugfests, I’m very sad to hear that. I don’t want to see it either. It would break my heart (temporarily). It may be very naive, but I do expect more from people here. Not specifically because it is a forum dedicated to awakening, but because people here generally seem to think things through and have the tools to rise above such matters. I do not believe that meditation automatically makes people better morally, but I do think that if one has the tools to develop morally and psychologically, it’s a good thing to do. I honestly don’t understand why anyone would choose to do otherwise. I’m not saying that it is easy, because I don’t think it is, but anyone can try. Not that my expectations are any ultimate truth. Of course they aren’t, and I certainly do not demand anything. I just prefer to think good of people until proven otherwise.

This declaration pertains not only to the slugfest thing, but also to the more general discussion on what we expect from people.
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 7:40 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 7:40 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 2426 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Laurel Carrington:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I saw now that you wish to move the focus back to Culadasa now, Laurel, so I appologize if I made you feel uncomfortable. I didn’t mean to hold you responsible for the topic shift. As you said, it was a gradual shift.

I think you brought up very important issues, Laurel, and in a nuanced way.

You do not need to apologize to me, nor have you made me uncomfortable! But in the past, this forum has gotten into a lot of trouble with slugfests over gender, and while I don’t want to cut off any such discussion, I also don’t want to see it happen again. 

I do appreciate what you’ve said here and I appreciate your passion, which I feel as well. We all have our vulnerabilities, and you are a wonderful asset here for the way you are right out there with your own. I believe in doing the same; Jens has done so as well. I want to renew my commitment to the community here and to our common interests. 


    You are both assets here and deeply appreciated.

    The passions are enlightenment.

terry
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/22/19 11:58 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/22/19 11:54 AM

Thread Split

Posts: 5117 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
This thread is getting very long and loading it in a browser tries one's patience. So I'm starting a new thread on the same topic.

The new thread can be found at:

 https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/15816190.


Chris Marti
DhO Moderator
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Laurel Carrington, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 9:22 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 9:22 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 439 Join Date: 4/7/14 Recent Posts
On the Culadasa case, I want to quote from Ken McLeod’s Waking up to your Life, pp. 87-88:

“Finally, there is one pitfall in meditation practice that you must avoid. Meditation practice raises the level of energy in your system in the form of active attention. The higher level of energy inevitably brings you into contact with reactive emotional patterns. If you now become selective and repress certain emotions, pushing them out of attention, two things happen. The higher level of energy in your system flows into the reactive pattern, making it stronger. The higher energy also flows into the repressing pattern, making that stronger. Both the reactive patterns of the emotion and the repression are reinforced. You end up splitting in two. One part of you is capable of attention and response. The other part becomes increasingly rigid and inflexible. It takes over unpredictably whenever the repressed emotion is triggered by events or situations. Typically, a person becomes more arrogant and self-indulgent, obsessed with power, money, sex, security, or other fixations, and acts in ways to control or amass the object of the obsession. Long-term practitioners and teachers who protect areas of their lives from their practice frequently run into this problem with unfortunate and sometimes tragic results. We run the risk of a similar fate if we protect any area of our personality or our lives from the increased awareness that develops in meditation. 

“To guard against this problem, always have at least one person, a teacher, colleague, or friend, with whom you discuss all aspects of your practice and your life. The person needs to be someone you trust and to whom you will listen regardless of the state of mind you are in or what he or she says. The only way to be sure that you will not protect an area of your habituated personality from the effects of practice is to have such a person in your life.” (emphasis added)

i think this speaks directly to the case we’re looking at here. John Yates/Culadasa did not abuse students, but he did carry on a secret life that was disconnected from his practice, and whatever we may think about privacy or what is our business and what is not, this isn’t a healthy pattern for anyone, least of all someone who takes a leadership role over a spiritual community. 
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Stirling Campbell, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 11:46 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 10:32 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 622 Join Date: 3/13/16 Recent Posts
Laurel Carrington:

“To guard against this problem, always have at least one person, a teacher, colleague, or friend, with whom you discuss all aspects of your practice and your life. The person needs to be someone you trust and to whom you will listen regardless of the state of mind you are in or what he or she says. The only way to be sure that you will not protect an area of your habituated personality from the effects of practice is to have such a person in your life.” (emphasis added)

i think this speaks directly to the case we’re looking at here. John Yates/Culadasa did not abuse students, but he did carry on a secret life that was disconnected from his practice, and whatever we may think about privacy or what is our business and what is not, this isn’t a healthy pattern for anyone, least of all someone who takes a leadership role over a spiritual community. 

I'm not sure I agree with McLeod's causes and conditions, but I do 100% agree that it is very fortunate that anyone who feels able to be completely authentic with themselves and someone else find someone that is also 100% authentic with them in a mentor role. My teacher has been instrumental helping untie a number of subtle knots in my "ancient, twisted karma".

The success of the endeavor, of course, relies entirely in our ability and dedication to face our most hidden attachments and aversions, taking this pursuit as possibly the most important aspect of the path (more important than mapping your progress) and sharing them as they arise in our most honest and forthright manner with someone we trust to do the same. 

I think it is obvious that if Culadasa had been fortunate to have had such a person this all might have gone differently, or never happened at all. While I am not doing his practices, I read his book and can see how it could be very helpful to many. It would be a shame for his body of teaching to be lost. It isn't too late for him to find his way back, IMHO, and represent how the recovery and reconcilation could be a fantastic model for others.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 11:42 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 11:42 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Stirling Campbell:

The success of the endeavor, of course, relies entirely in our ability and dedication to face our most hidden attachments and aversions, taking this pursuit as possibly the most important aspect of the path (more important than mapping your progress, and sharing them as they arise in our most honest and forthright manner with someone we trust to do the same. 



Yes, I believe this is key. Well put!
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 7:46 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 7:46 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 2426 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Stirling Campbell:

The success of the endeavor, of course, relies entirely in our ability and dedication to face our most hidden attachments and aversions, taking this pursuit as possibly the most important aspect of the path (more important than mapping your progress) and sharing them as they arise in our most honest and forthright manner with someone we trust to do the same. 



   Such sentiments as these help engender such trust.

t
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 12:11 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 12:11 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Laurel Carrington:
On the Culadasa case, I want to quote from Ken McLeod’s Waking up to your Life, pp. 87-88:

“Finally, there is one pitfall in meditation practice that you must avoid. Meditation practice raises the level of energy in your system in the form of active attention. The higher level of energy inevitably brings you into contact with reactive emotional patterns. If you now become selective and repress certain emotions, pushing them out of attention, two things happen. The higher level of energy in your system flows into the reactive pattern, making it stronger. The higher energy also flows into the repressing pattern, making that stronger. Both the reactive patterns of the emotion and the repression are reinforced. You end up splitting in two. One part of you is capable of attention and response. The other part becomes increasingly rigid and inflexible. It takes over unpredictably whenever the repressed emotion is triggered by events or situations. Typically, a person becomes more arrogant and self-indulgent, obsessed with power, money, sex, security, or other fixations, and acts in ways to control or amass the object of the obsession. Long-term practitioners and teachers who protect areas of their lives from their practice frequently run into this problem with unfortunate and sometimes tragic results. We run the risk of a similar fate if we protect any area of our personality or our lives from the increased awareness that develops in meditation. 

“To guard against this problem, always have at least one person, a teacher, colleague, or friend, with whom you discuss all aspects of your practice and your life. The person needs to be someone you trust and to whom you will listen regardless of the state of mind you are in or what he or she says. The only way to be sure that you will not protect an area of your habituated personality from the effects of practice is to have such a person in your life.” (emphasis added)

i think this speaks directly to the case we’re looking at here. John Yates/Culadasa did not abuse students, but he did carry on a secret life that was disconnected from his practice, and whatever we may think about privacy or what is our business and what is not, this isn’t a healthy pattern for anyone, least of all someone who takes a leadership role over a spiritual community. 


This makes McLeod’s book sail up to the top of my reading list.
shargrol, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 3:49 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 3:48 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 2345 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Great quote Laurel.

This is the key dynamic that should strike fear into any advanced meditator. Now you have the potential for even stronger shadow sides if you ignore your shadow side.
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 8:17 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 7:37 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 2426 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Laurel Carrington:
On the Culadasa case, I want to quote from Ken McLeod’s Waking up to your Life, pp. 87-88:

“Finally, there is one pitfall in meditation practice that you must avoid. Meditation practice raises the level of energy in your system in the form of active attention. The higher level of energy inevitably brings you into contact with reactive emotional patterns. If you now become selective and repress certain emotions, pushing them out of attention, two things happen. The higher level of energy in your system flows into the reactive pattern, making it stronger. The higher energy also flows into the repressing pattern, making that stronger. Both the reactive patterns of the emotion and the repression are reinforced. You end up splitting in two. One part of you is capable of attention and response. The other part becomes increasingly rigid and inflexible. It takes over unpredictably whenever the repressed emotion is triggered by events or situations. Typically, a person becomes more arrogant and self-indulgent, obsessed with power, money, sex, security, or other fixations, and acts in ways to control or amass the object of the obsession. Long-term practitioners and teachers who protect areas of their lives from their practice frequently run into this problem with unfortunate and sometimes tragic results. We run the risk of a similar fate if we protect any area of our personality or our lives from the increased awareness that develops in meditation. 

“To guard against this problem, always have at least one person, a teacher, colleague, or friend, with whom you discuss all aspects of your practice and your life. The person needs to be someone you trust and to whom you will listen regardless of the state of mind you are in or what he or she says. The only way to be sure that you will not protect an area of your habituated personality from the effects of practice is to have such a person in your life.” (emphasis added)

i think this speaks directly to the case we’re looking at here. John Yates/Culadasa did not abuse students, but he did carry on a secret life that was disconnected from his practice, and whatever we may think about privacy or what is our business and what is not, this isn’t a healthy pattern for anyone, least of all someone who takes a leadership role over a spiritual community. 
aloha laurel,

   I'm confused as to what more than caveat emptor you consider appropriate, or why this makes you so angry.

   Might as well air it out, we've come this far.

   I'm not trying to put you at a disadvantage here, I would like to find a basis for agreement.

terry
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Not two, not one, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 2:07 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 2:07 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 1038 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
[quote=Laurel Carrington

]... On page 14, curious made a remark with which I took issue (and I want to add here that I respect curious for his many posts on this forum that are of great value. I do not mean to jump down his throat in any way; I just disagreed with how he expressed himself there) ..

Disagreement is the spice of life Laurel, and the road to truth!  I treasure it.  emoticon
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 7:12 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 7:12 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 2426 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Laurel Carrington:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Jens Theisen:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
...please don’t shift the focus to ”female predation” in the context of discussing men’s sexual abuse of women. 
The context is Culadasa's lying and sleeping around, not the sexual abuse of women.



No, the local context was what Laurel brought up. The context has shifted many times throughout this thread. If one wants to reply to something earlier, it’s a good idea not to reply to a person talking about something urgent and sensitive.

Since I have been at least partly responsible for the shift in tone, I went back on this thread in order to reconstruct where and how that happened. What I discovered is that the discussion of the Culadasa case naturally evolved to a discussion of arhats (or people with insight, enlightened people, whatever) in general and their capacity for bad behavior. On September 13, page 11, Santiago announced a new thread on that topic, but of course people continued to talk about it on this thread as well. On page 14, curious made a remark with which I took issue (and I want to add here that I respect curious for his many posts on this forum that are of great value. I do not mean to jump down his throat in any way; I just disagreed with how he expressed himself there). 

Meanwhile, on the waking up and growing up thread, Sasaki Roshi’s case came up. I remember that case as being especially egregious for the extent of the collusion in the sangha itself, with many of his followers telling Sasaki’s victims to sit down and shut up. Starting on page 3 of that thread, I posted about that case and got invested in thinking that anyone doing such things couldn’t possibly be enlightened, went back and forth for awhile, and then finally realized I could no longer hold onto that view. David Carse’s comments in Perfect Brilliant Stillness became a flash point for my change of view. I and others posted about the sexual abuse of women students in Buddhist circles, which I referred to (and still consider) as an emergency. 

On this thread, terry weighed in, and I gave it a day and then answered him, terry responded, and then Linda, and now here we are. 

What to say going forward? First, I do not believe that all men are evil; far from it. What I was responding to in terry’s post was something specific that I believed could lead to making the argument that women are complicit in their own abuse. Let me clarify: these matters are indeed complicated, far too much to be thrashed out to anyone’s satisfaction here; they are likely to get people riled up and on the defensive (my hand in the air here); and there are underlying systems—social, economic, biological—that we don’t fully understand. Terry noted pain in what I write; whenever there is defensiveness or anger there is pain, and pain over these matters is widespread. I feel pain on behalf of others and for myself. 

I’ll conclude by saying that I take these things seriously, and I believe the dharma is not well served by minimizing them, simplifying them, or sweeping them under the rug. At the moment, though, I’d like to see us pivot back to Culadasa’s case, for the sake of clarity. 


aloha laurel,

   I understand why you feel that women should not be held complicit in their own abuse. In a court of law, where the abuse is the only subject at issue, this may be true. But in understanding what is happening, it is women's complicity in their own abuse that is often the key to helping them become free of it. The most effective way to change the behavior of others is to change one's own. Women are counseled to leave the man, empower themselves, leave victimhood behind, get on with their lives, and stop being complicit.

   Am I wrong?


terry
   
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/22/19 2:27 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/22/19 2:27 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
terry:
Laurel Carrington:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Jens Theisen:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
...please don’t shift the focus to ”female predation” in the context of discussing men’s sexual abuse of women. 
The context is Culadasa's lying and sleeping around, not the sexual abuse of women.



No, the local context was what Laurel brought up. The context has shifted many times throughout this thread. If one wants to reply to something earlier, it’s a good idea not to reply to a person talking about something urgent and sensitive.

Since I have been at least partly responsible for the shift in tone, I went back on this thread in order to reconstruct where and how that happened. What I discovered is that the discussion of the Culadasa case naturally evolved to a discussion of arhats (or people with insight, enlightened people, whatever) in general and their capacity for bad behavior. On September 13, page 11, Santiago announced a new thread on that topic, but of course people continued to talk about it on this thread as well. On page 14, curious made a remark with which I took issue (and I want to add here that I respect curious for his many posts on this forum that are of great value. I do not mean to jump down his throat in any way; I just disagreed with how he expressed himself there). 

Meanwhile, on the waking up and growing up thread, Sasaki Roshi’s case came up. I remember that case as being especially egregious for the extent of the collusion in the sangha itself, with many of his followers telling Sasaki’s victims to sit down and shut up. Starting on page 3 of that thread, I posted about that case and got invested in thinking that anyone doing such things couldn’t possibly be enlightened, went back and forth for awhile, and then finally realized I could no longer hold onto that view. David Carse’s comments in Perfect Brilliant Stillness became a flash point for my change of view. I and others posted about the sexual abuse of women students in Buddhist circles, which I referred to (and still consider) as an emergency. 

On this thread, terry weighed in, and I gave it a day and then answered him, terry responded, and then Linda, and now here we are. 

What to say going forward? First, I do not believe that all men are evil; far from it. What I was responding to in terry’s post was something specific that I believed could lead to making the argument that women are complicit in their own abuse. Let me clarify: these matters are indeed complicated, far too much to be thrashed out to anyone’s satisfaction here; they are likely to get people riled up and on the defensive (my hand in the air here); and there are underlying systems—social, economic, biological—that we don’t fully understand. Terry noted pain in what I write; whenever there is defensiveness or anger there is pain, and pain over these matters is widespread. I feel pain on behalf of others and for myself. 

I’ll conclude by saying that I take these things seriously, and I believe the dharma is not well served by minimizing them, simplifying them, or sweeping them under the rug. At the moment, though, I’d like to see us pivot back to Culadasa’s case, for the sake of clarity. 


aloha laurel,

   I understand why you feel that women should not be held complicit in their own abuse. In a court of law, where the abuse is the only subject at issue, this may be true. But in understanding what is happening, it is women's complicity in their own abuse that is often the key to helping them become free of it. The most effective way to change the behavior of others is to change one's own. Women are counseled to leave the man, empower themselves, leave victimhood behind, get on with their lives, and stop being complicit.

   Am I wrong?


terry
   


Leaving some abusive men is associated with great risk of getting killed. They may also threaten to hurt others around the woman or to make her life even more hellish. A couple of years ago I helped a friend leave her narcissistic male partner. It was creepy. This friend is a very strong woman, not someone that would be considered at risk. He broke her down beyond recognition. Luckily she is okay now.
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 6:27 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/21/19 6:27 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 2426 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Terry, please, if you really aim at doing the least damage everyday, which I believe you do (I do that pretty often too, albeit not everyday), please don’t shift the focus to ”female predation” in the context of discussing men’s sexual abuse of women. And please do not focus on seeing the other side of the story when an oppressed group is abused, and please do not imply that those who want to shift the focus back to the real issue are thinking in black and white (or indignant for that matter). The victims are in most cases still struggling to get anyone to see it from their side. I’m sure you mean well, but this is much more harmful than you realize, because just like Laurel pointed out, it strengthens tropes that have been used to discredit abused women in many generations, and it neglects the power dynamics at play. As for the example with the ”decent and respectable” fathers who couldn’t ”help themselves” around young girls depending on them and already vulnerable, what was that?! If an easy victim, one that they can blame because it happened to them before, is so irresistible for them, they shouldn’t be around vulnerable young girls.

I’m not a woman, but non-binary, but I am a feminist too, because oppression is wrong. Taking advantage of privilege and refusing to see it is wrong. I try hard to work with myself with regard to all kinds of oppression that I contribute to and right that wrong to the best of my ability. Harmful power dynamics permeate the society and I’m not as innocent as I would like to be, but I’m learning. Seeing power dynamics has nothing to do with being indignant (of course there are always some individuals in any movement that feed on the anger, but that does not make the social issue less valid).
aloha linda,

   I think your view one-sided. I'm not condoning sex crimes. The punishments for such crimes are severe, and applied with a broad brush. The formerly respectable foster fathers were severely punished, especially because they had assumed a position of trust and they failed. Each consecutive perpetrator knew of the child's history, and they still committed these crimes. I was trying to point out that these were foster families, chosen for having roots in the community, and an ethnic affinity to the girl. Many lives were damaged in this particular saga. I feel compassion for all of them. And while sexuality is a given there are root causes of abuse, such as poverty and neglect, that can be better addressed without stirring up further hatred and condemnation.

   Please note, my friend, that these "sexual predators" - vastly male if you narrowly define the class as rapists - are universally hated. This hatred is easy to join in with and won't help us understand or have compassion for people who are suffering. Nazis, slave holders and rapists all suffer and need compassion. Think of the tibetan monks who are sorry for the chinese torturers and rapists, "the poor chinese, creating such terrible karma for themselves." Such terrible karma... for us all. How can we prevent this? More punishment, more social condemnation? Or more understanding, more soul searching, and broadening the base of those who care?

   There are more prostitutes than rapists. I doubt you have been as aggressively propositioned, trust me there are women who prey on men. In the absence of any desire to blame anyone, this tendency cannot be overlooked if you want to understand the dynamics of human sexual interaction. Of course rape is more severe a crime than offering sex for money, and deserves more severe punishment. One can limit transgression if not temptation, and one has to draw the line somewhere. Many prostitutes are underage or close to it. When they are discovered by authorities in america they are arrested, and generally released to their pimps, who bail them out. These women (and girls) should be diverted, offered alternatives. Often the attitude is, you're pretty, you can earn a living with that as your stock in trade; as opposed to having kids and being on the dole, often the only other apparent alternative. Many want to legalize the sex industry. After all legalized gambling has been such a success, they say. (Hawaii and utah being the only states of america with no state lottery.)

   People tend to identify with whatever group they happen to fall into. You feel victimized by male sexuality. Historically men have felt vicitmized by female sexaulity. These are the dogs in the fight, the war between the sexes. How many marriages revolve in day to day interaction around achieving momentary moral superiority? And all is fair...  

   I suspect that the powers that be want to fragment people into competing interest groups, and like to stir up hatred between them; anything to distract people from idntifying their real oppressors. They encourage victimhood and stigmatization. Lock away the drunk driver forever, whether he was in an accident or not, or whether his father had just died. And every "sexual predator." Every drug user or seller. Fill the prisons, that is what we do in america, we have 5% of the world's population and a quarter of the world's prisoners. I had a friend once, who woke up in the morning with a woman he had been drinking with the night before, both so drunk they didn't know what happened (they were both native americans and regularly drunk). She claimed he assaulted her. The prosecutor threatened him with 20 years for rape if he went to trial, or six weeks time served if he plead guilty. He plead out, but then found himself having to register as a sexual predator every time he turned around, a reputaiton that will follow him for the rest of his presumably long life, as he was a young man. Another interesting case involved a prostitue in honolulu who struck a bargain and then the john stiffed her for her fee. She cried rape, but was it only theft of services? In many cases, understanding and judgment need to be applied if justice is to be served.

   I suppose in a forum composed predominantly of men you feel required to balance the discussion through feminism. Having spent my professional career working with women (who are a vast majority of med techs and nurses), I have been subject countless times to sexism in the form of, "Even if you in particular are not sexist, you deserve to be abused because you are a man, and have benefited from paternalism your whole life." Also, we tended in the lab to actually quantify pms, it was so readily acknowledged and prevalent. I have been exposed, shall we say, to what I think of as female sexual predation, though often from a male standpoint it seems the women prey on each other. Not always, though; there have been women to whom my virtue was a challenge.

   You know, the thing I love most about the old testament prophets is their combination of spirituality and indignation. I have nothing against indignation, and it is especially suitable if you personally have been violated. Think of hosea, and gomer. And of the ways of the lord, and of forgiveness.

   Anyhows, we were talking about spiritual gurus, men, who take famale students into their confidence and then somehow rape them. I don't know enough about this group to hate them readily. It is easy to berate someone for insufficiently hating perps. Lets try to reduce the hate, is how I feel. And what precisely are these gurus guilty of? Seduction? Rape? Some sort of spiritual violation of trust? Personally, I don't trust any of these people, or I trust all of them, it hardly matters. Caveat emptor. And who needs them anyway? Think for yourself. Don't be fooled

   I don't think anyone should take advantage of anyone, linda, I'm sure you appreciate that. Our society has built in standards that we take for granted. Women wear makeup and form-fitting clothes, and despise only the unattractive men who show interest. The brutes. Advertising teases and seduces, and sets the standards for attractiveness. Sex and commerce are so deeply intertwined that separating them in purely human relationships can be very difficult. Punishing individual men is necessary but only a bandaid. As a culture we need to put sex in its place. With some degree of objectivity and mutual reponsibility. A morality we can live with.

   Reducing the degree of poalization is a start, even if the discussion can be bruising.


terry



arethra franklin made the song "respect" famous though it was written and recorded by otis redding...similarly linda ronstadt made this song famous though it was written and recorded by warren zevon



Poor, Poor, Pitiful Me   
(Linda Ronstadt)

Well I lay my head on the railroad track
Waiting on the Double E
But the train don't run by here no more
Poor poor pitiful me
Poor poor pitiful me
Poor poor pitiful me
Oh these boys won't let me be
Lord have mercy on me
Woe woe is me
Well I met a man out in Hollywood
Now I ain't naming names
Well he really worked me over good
Just like Jesse James
Yes he really worked me over good
He was a credit to his gender
Put me through some changes Lord
Sort of like a Waring blender
Poor poor pitiful me
Poor poor pitiful me
Oh these boys won't let me be
Lord have mercy on me
Woe woe is me
Well I met a boy in the Vieux Carres
Down in Yokohama
He picked me up and he threw me down
He said "Please don't hurt me Mama"
Poor poor pitiful me
Poor poor pitiful me
Oh these boys won't let me be
Lord have mercy on me
Woe woe is me
Poor poor poor me
Poor poor pitiful me
Poor poor poor me
Poor poor pitiful me
Poor poor poor me
Poor poor pitiful me

Songwriters: Warren Zevon

  
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/22/19 3:22 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/22/19 3:22 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 2426 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
[quote=terry


]   You know, the thing I love most about the old testament prophets is their combination of spirituality and indignation. I have nothing against indignation, and it is especially suitable if you personally have been violated. Think of hosea, and gomer. And of the ways of the lord, and of forgiveness.



from THE MARRIAGE OF HEAVEN AND HELL
by william blake



A Memorable Fancy


The Prophets Isaiah and Ezekiel dined with me, and I asked them how they dared so roundly to assert that God spoke to them; and whether they did not think at the time that they would be misunderstood, and so be the cause of imposition.

Isaiah answer'd: `I saw no God, nor heard any, in a finite organical perception; but my senses discover'd the infinite in everything, and as I was then persuaded, and remain confirm'd, that the voice of honest indignation is the voice of God, I cared not for consequences, but wrote.'

Then I asked: `Does a firm persuasion that a thing is so, make it so?'

He replied: `All Poets believe that it does, and in ages of imagination this firm persuasion removed mountains; but many are not capable of a firm persuasion of anything.'

Then Ezekiel said: `The philosophy of the East taught the first principles of human perception. Some nations held one principle for the origin, and some another: we of Israel taught that the Poetic Genius (as you now call it) was the first principle and all the others merely derivative, which was the cause of our despising the Priests and Philosophers of other countries, and prophesying that all Gods would at last be proved to originate in ours and to be the tributaries of the Poetic Genius. It was this that our great poet, King David, desired so fervently and invokes so pathetically, saying by this he conquers enemies and governs kingdoms; and we so loved our God, that we cursed in his name all the Deities of surrounding nations, and asserted that they had rebelled. From these opinions the vulgar came to think that all nations would at last be subject to the Jews.'

`This,' said he, `like all firm persuasions, is come to pass; for all nations believe the Jews' code and worship the Jews' god, and what greater subjection can be?'

I heard this with some wonder, and must confess my own conviction. After dinner I ask'd Isaiah to favour the world with his lost works; he said none of equal value was lost. Ezekiel said the same of his.

I also asked Isaiah what made him go naked and barefoot three years. He answer'd: `The same that made our friend Diogenes, the Grecian.'

I then asked Ezekiel why he ate dung, and lay so long on his right and left side. He answer'd, `The desire of raising other men into a perception of the infinite: this the North American tribes practise, and is he honest who resists his genius or conscience only for the sake of present ease or gratification?'

The ancient tradition that the world will be consumed in fire at the end of six thousand years is true, as I have heard from Hell.

For the cherub with his flaming sword is hereby commanded to leave his guard at tree of life; and when he does, the whole creation will be consumed and appear infinite and holy, whereas it now appears finite and corrupt.

This will come to pass by an improvement of sensual enjoyment.

But first the notion that man has a body distinct from his soul is to be expunged; this I shall do by printing in the infernal method, by corrosives, which in Hell are salutary and medicinal, melting apparent surfaces away, and displaying the infinite which was hid.

If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/22/19 8:04 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/22/19 8:04 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 7134 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Okay, terry, so for you indignant was not a pejorative. That’s good to know, and it fits in much better with how I see you. It’s just that it usually is, which is why the wording may be seen by antifeminists as legitimizing their hate against feminists, and if no-one comments it, it may make people hesitant to talk about social issues having to do with gender inequality (such as sexual predation in sanghas). Since I trust you enough to bring it up, I thought I should. And now that you have expressed your appreciation about our passion with regard to injustice, I feel that the risk is averted (with regard to you, anyway; apparently it is still risky with regard to others).

I really appreciate being able to talk like this about sensitive matters, without having to fear flame wars.
Edward, modified 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 1:45 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 1:44 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 129 Join Date: 6/10/19 Recent Posts
curious:

Compassion does become a more natural response.
But you will now feel completely free of societal norms. Personally, I now drive faster and get more speeding tickets. I don't agonise about the ticket as I once would have, but I do still slow down a bit to avoid the next one (but not too much ...). 

You should  educate yourself on road safety before your medtitave attainments kills someone
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Not two, not one, modified 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 6:15 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 6:15 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 1038 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
Edward:
curious:

Compassion does become a more natural response.
But you will now feel completely free of societal norms. Personally, I now drive faster and get more speeding tickets. I don't agonise about the ticket as I once would have, but I do still slow down a bit to avoid the next one (but not too much ...). 

You should  educate yourself on road safety before your medtitave attainments kills someone

Well, I'm just offering some opinions, rather than trying to claim meditative attainments. But why on earth would you think I was at risk of killing someone?
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Ryan, modified 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 7:36 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 7:34 AM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 76 Join Date: 2/21/19 Recent Posts
Any time you get behind the wheel you are at risk of killing someone. Hurtling theses multi-ton boxes of glass and steel around at non-biological speeds just necessarily carries with it the risk of fatal injury to theses squishy, fathom-long bodies of ours. However, when driving at posted speeds and obeying all local traffic laws, the risk is usually insignificant. However the risk increases proportionately with speed, and the posted limits are generally around the point where the risk goes from “non-zero but acceptable” to “increasingly in excess of reasonable.”
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 5:35 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 5:35 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 2426 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
curious:
Edward:
curious:

Compassion does become a more natural response.
But you will now feel completely free of societal norms. Personally, I now drive faster and get more speeding tickets. I don't agonise about the ticket as I once would have, but I do still slow down a bit to avoid the next one (but not too much ...). 

You should  educate yourself on road safety before your medtitave attainments kills someone

Well, I'm just offering some opinions, rather than trying to claim meditative attainments. But why on earth would you think I was at risk of killing someone?

you might have an "accident" 


(haha, terry said "accident")


smile
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Stirling Campbell, modified 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 5:45 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 5:44 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 622 Join Date: 3/13/16 Recent Posts
terry:

you might have an "accident" 


(haha, terry said "accident")


smile

Post of the day, IMHO. emoticon
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/19/19 4:10 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 9/19/19 4:10 PM

RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 2426 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
I’ve gone on at great length on the waking up or growing up thread about what I think, but am wondering whether this is your assumption. 

Laurel, I'll repeat what I posted earlier today:

... insight provides us with access to "the way things work" in regard to mind. What insight does not do is provide us with the motivation act on those insights. That motivation we need to obtain elsewhere; upbringing, social norms, training in ethics and morality, religion, etc.

I don't like using the word "enlightenment" because it has too much baggage and gets interpreted in a million different ways. I use the word "awakening" to mean access to the way things work in regard to the mind. For me, that's the key/gateway to whatever else we choose to do about what we find on the other side of our awakening.

   When the "chamber pot" began to seem crude, the word "toilet" was used. Now we go to the "bathroom." Dozens of euphemisms are used for concepts which intrinsically are associated with a "bad smell." 

   Like money. The emperor vespasian once put a tax on public toilets in rome. In new york city when they introduced the "pay toilet" requiring a quarter, there was a public outcry, not to mention some memorable defecations in protest. In rome it was worse, as public toilets were where the people met to do business and converse with friends, and sitting on the toilet was done at regular times and by reservation. The outcry reached vespasian, and he famouly took a coin, lifted it to his nose, and said, "Non olet." That is, "It doesn't smell." Nonetheless, he removed the tax. Ever since, the world has been divided between the "olet" and the "non olet."

   Eventually these concepts themselves should be dumped.


terry



("needless to say...")


Zen Kusai

by Scott Bradley 


Zen kusai is “Zen stink”, a common ailment among those who discuss things of a ‘spiritual’ nature. Aitkens calls it “the stink of spiritual materialism”, by which he means, I think, the attachment to ‘spiritual experience’ and the explanations which grow out of them. This is stinkiness at its best, however. At least it is rooted in something genuine. Perhaps the term “Zen sickness” might better be used in such a case. 

Another form of Zen stink is what you so often smell right here. It is the bandying about of ‘spiritual’ sounding words, or a certain crafty, ‘paradoxical’ way of putting things, as if they hid some deep meaning — without their being truly rooted in experience. But if there is stink here, I submit that it does not go altogether unnoticed. Moreover, where there is exercise, there also tends to be smell. “Where no oxen are, the crib is clean,” goes a biblical proverb, “but much increase is had by the strength of an ox.” Yes, there is a lot of manure here, but the fields are getting plowed, and hopefully, fertilized. 

But, needless to say, it is not my own stink that I find most odious, but that which is (I hope) of a completely different order. It is religious stink. I have been doing a lot of reading of ‘spiritual’ stuff lately, and frankly, my nostrils burn from the religious reek. 

It’s more an unspoken presumption of a holiness and spirituality than something articulated, which is why, perhaps, I myself find it hard to articulate. It is the cavalier use of a multitude of unexamined presuppositions to create a sense of sense. It is the use of highly emotive words without substance, the creation of an atmosphere of meaning where there is none. It is the preacher in his pulpit, the priest in the confessional, and the roshi conjuring up mythical bodhisattvas as if they were real. It does not matter whether they are real or no; the holy ambiance has been implied; let us now float off together into this particular version of feel-good land. But then, this is, for me, the very essence of religion. 

So what? I hope you have asked, So what? I have no cogent reply. Call it a bit of stinky venting. Or, perhaps, an appeal to personal transparency and honesty. 
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 2:43 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

Posts: 5117 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
 Eventually these concepts themselves should be dumped.

Heh heh heh heh, terry said "dump."
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Stirling Campbell, modified 4 Years ago at 9/18/19 5:00 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Laurel Carrington:
So insight = enlightenment? Or awakening?

In Zen or Dzogchen anyway, Insight is Wisdom - understanding of the nature of Mind/Emptiness. Insight is where compassion comes from. 

The experience of nonduality is the basis for the Buddhist teaching of compassion. When one does not abide in the distinction between self and other, between humans and nonhumans, and between sentient beings and insentient beings, there is identification with and love for all beings. Thus, the wisdom of nonduality, prajna, is inseparable from compassion.

An action that embodies compassion is wholesome and one that does not is unwholesome. Any action, small or large, affects self and other. Cause brings forth effect. Thus, the dualistic perspective of Buddhist ethics—good and bad, right and wrong—is based on nondualism.

Here emerges a fundamental dilemma of Buddhism. If one focuses merely on prajna, one may say that there is no good and bad, and one may become indifferent and possibly destructive. On the other hand, if one only thinks of cause and effect, one may not be able to understand prajna. The legendary dialogue of Bodhidharma with Emperor Wu of southern China is revered in the Zen tradition exactly because it illustrates this dilemma in a dramatic way:

The Emperor said, “Ever since I ascended the throne, I have built temples, copied sutras, approved the ordination of more monks than I can count. What is the merit of having done all this?”

Bodhidharma said, “There is no merit.” The Emperor said, “Why is that so?”

Bodhidharma said, “These are minor achievements of humans and devas, which become the causes of desire. They are like shadows of forms and are not real.”

The Emperor said, “What is real merit?”

Bodhidharma said, “When pure wisdom is complete, the essence is empty and serene. Such merit cannot be attained through worldly actions.”

The Emperor said, “What is the foremost sacred truth?”

Bodhidharma said, “Vast emptiness, nothing sacred.”

The Emperor said, “Who is it that faces me?” Bodhidharma said, “I don’t know.”

The Emperor did not understand.


Thus the primary concern of the Zen practitioner has been described as the experience of “the pure wisdom” that sees reality as “empty and serene.” This experience was regarded as the source of all scriptural teachings. Often Chinese Zen Buddhists talked about the transmission of teachings “outside scriptures.” Are living buddhas, or those who are awakened, free from ethics? Are they free from cause and effect?

The Zen answer to this question may be found in the parable of Baizhang and an earlier Zen teacher, who was reborn as a wild fox because of his belief that he was free from cause and effect.7 This story clearly illustrates that practitioners of the “pure wisdom” of nonduality have no license to abandon ethics. It is not a coincidence that Baizhang, a great master of eighth- and ninth-century China, was credited with establishing guidelines for monastic communities.

Mahayana Buddhism calls for the six completions as the essential elements for arriving at nirvana. They are: giving, ethical conduct, perseverance, enthusiasm, meditation, and prajna. The first five may be seen as elements for sustaining compassion in prajna. Thus, keeping and transmitting the precepts are the core of Zen teaching.

Soon after beginning to study with Rujing in China, Dogen expressed his concern about the widespread tendency to overemphasize the “here and now” and disregard the future effect of practice. Rujing agreed with Dogen about his concern and said, “To deny that there are future births is nihilism; buddha ancestors do not hold to the nihilistic views of those who are outside the way. If there is no future there is no present. This present birth definitely exists. How could it be that the next birth doesn’t also exist?”8

Dogen’s own understanding on this issue is clear in his fascicle “Identifying with Cause and Effect” in The Treasury of the True Dharma Eye, where he says, “Thus, the significance of studying cause and realizing effect is clear. This is the way of buddhas and ancestors…. Those of you who have pure aspiration for enlightenment and want to study buddha-dharma for the sake of buddhadharma should clarify causation as past sages did. Those who reject this teaching are outside the way.”9 Thus, Dogen makes it clear that authentic Zen practice is not divorced from the teachings expressed in scriptures. For him deep trust in and identification with causation should be the foundation for practice of the way.


From: Enlightenment Unfolds - The Essential Teachings of Zen Master Dogen by Kazuaki Tanahashi
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Laurel Carrington, modified 4 Years ago at 9/18/19 5:52 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Thank you. I’m not sure everyone understands insight in this way. 
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Stirling Campbell, modified 4 Years ago at 9/18/19 6:59 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Laurel Carrington:
Thank you. I’m not sure everyone understands insight in this way. 

It doesn't hurt to try the Mahayana shaped peg in the Theravada shaped hole occasionally, does it? 
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Laurel Carrington, modified 4 Years ago at 9/18/19 7:15 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Not at all. 
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/18/19 8:16 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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In Zen or Dzogchen anyway, Insight is Wisdom - understanding of the nature of Mind/Emptiness. Insight is where compassion comes from. 

That's another way to say it, except the nature of the relationship between insight and compassion is left to interpretation. In my experience we have to choose to use insight appropriately, to act according to what we can see. Not everyone does that, so there are folks with deep insight that do bad things.
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Jim Smith, modified 4 Years ago at 9/19/19 12:27 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Stirling Campbell:

In Zen or Dzogchen anyway, Insight is Wisdom - understanding of the nature of Mind/Emptiness. Insight is where compassion comes from. 

The experience of nonduality is the basis for the Buddhist teaching of compassion. When one does not abide in the distinction between self and other, between humans and nonhumans, and between sentient beings and insentient beings, there is identification with and love for all beings. Thus, the wisdom of nonduality, prajna, is inseparable from compassion.

An action that embodies compassion is wholesome and one that does not is unwholesome. Any action, small or large, affects self and other. Cause brings forth effect. Thus, the dualistic perspective of Buddhist ethics—good and bad, right and wrong—is based on nondualism.

Here emerges a fundamental dilemma of Buddhism. If one focuses merely on prajna, one may say that there is no good and bad, and one may become indifferent and possibly destructive. ...

From: Enlightenment Unfolds - The Essential Teachings of Zen Master Dogen by Kazuaki Tanahashi

Do you think the scandals are explained by the perps having "incomplete enlightenment"?

How could Shinzen Young study with Sasaki Roshi and not recognize his teacher didn't understand what he was teaching?

Buddha did not teach non-duality. Maybe he was right not to?
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Siavash ', modified 4 Years ago at 9/19/19 12:45 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Not just Shinzen, include Jack Kornfield, Ram Dass and others too.
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Stirling Campbell, modified 4 Years ago at 9/19/19 12:48 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Jim Smith:

Do you think the scandals are explained by the perps having "incomplete enlightenment"?

How could Shinzen Young study with Sasaki Roshi and not recognize his teacher didn't understand what he was teaching?

Buddha did not teach non-duality. Maybe he was right not to?

I can't comment on the completeness of anyone elses enlightenment. I think the key word here:

If one focuses merely on prajna, one may say that there is no good and bad, and one may become indifferent and possibly destructive.

... is "one". There is a discernment in the measure of good or bad, or destructiveness. It's possible these are the province of a still existent "subtle" self. This is why it is nice for a teacher, or even an enlightened being to have a teacher/colleague as a reference for their thoughts and behaviour to point these out.

The actions of Sasaki Roshi in NO WAY invalidate his understanding of the nature of mind/reality or ability to competently teach it.

The Buddha taught the 3 Marks of Existence, of which Anatta, IMHO, exists as the simplest version of non-duality. Non-duality is the absolute nature of reality. Some will see it or not see it - it has nothing to do with Buddhism.
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/19/19 5:15 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Stirling Campbell:
Jim Smith:

Do you think the scandals are explained by the perps having "incomplete enlightenment"?

How could Shinzen Young study with Sasaki Roshi and not recognize his teacher didn't understand what he was teaching?

Buddha did not teach non-duality. Maybe he was right not to?

I can't comment on the completeness of anyone elses enlightenment. I think the key word here:

If one focuses merely on prajna, one may say that there is no good and bad, and one may become indifferent and possibly destructive.

... is "one". There is a discernment in the measure of good or bad, or destructiveness. It's possible these are the province of a still existent "subtle" self. This is why it is nice for a teacher, or even an enlightened being to have a teacher/colleague as a reference for their thoughts and behaviour to point these out.

The actions of Sasaki Roshi in NO WAY invalidate his understanding of the nature of mind/reality or ability to competently teach it.

The Buddha taught the 3 Marks of Existence, of which Anatta, IMHO, exists as the simplest version of non-duality. Non-duality is the absolute nature of reality. Some will see it or not see it - it has nothing to do with Buddhism.

   If a teacher appears to lack justice or morality, there may be doubt. If a spiritual "teacher" exploits people for sex or money, exhibiting lust and greed, their "understanding" is certainly invalid, and all they can teach is sophistry. It isn't the slick speaker, but the homely truth, that is important. The grace of god, not the technique.

   If a person exposes themselves to temptation, they are bound to fall. The key is not in avoiding transgression, god help us, but in avoiding temptation. As matthew says, (7:13):


13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


  The "broad way" opens before us when we allow ourselves to be tempted. One thing leads to another.


terry



from tao te ching, trans feng


Fifty Three

If I have even just a little sense, 
I will walk on the main road and my only fear 
will be of straying from it. 
Keeping to the main road is easy, 
But people love to be sidetracked.

When the court is arrayed in splendor, 
The fields are full of weeds, 
And the granaries are bare. 
Some wear gorgeous clothes, 
Carry sharp swords, 
And indulge themselves with food and drink; 
They have more possessions than they can use. 
They are robber barons. 
This is certainly not the way of Tao.

 

Thirty Five


All men will come to him who keeps to the one, 
For there lie rest and happiness and peace.

Passersby may stop for music and good food, 
But a description of the Tao 
Seems without substance or flavor. 
It cannot be seen, it cannot be heard, 
And yet it cannot be exhausted.
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/19/19 5:56 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Jim Smith:
Stirling Campbell:

In Zen or Dzogchen anyway, Insight is Wisdom - understanding of the nature of Mind/Emptiness. Insight is where compassion comes from. 

The experience of nonduality is the basis for the Buddhist teaching of compassion. When one does not abide in the distinction between self and other, between humans and nonhumans, and between sentient beings and insentient beings, there is identification with and love for all beings. Thus, the wisdom of nonduality, prajna, is inseparable from compassion.

An action that embodies compassion is wholesome and one that does not is unwholesome. Any action, small or large, affects self and other. Cause brings forth effect. Thus, the dualistic perspective of Buddhist ethics—good and bad, right and wrong—is based on nondualism.

Here emerges a fundamental dilemma of Buddhism. If one focuses merely on prajna, one may say that there is no good and bad, and one may become indifferent and possibly destructive. ...

From: Enlightenment Unfolds - The Essential Teachings of Zen Master Dogen by Kazuaki Tanahashi

Do you think the scandals are explained by the perps having "incomplete enlightenment"?

How could Shinzen Young study with Sasaki Roshi and not recognize his teacher didn't understand what he was teaching?

Buddha did not teach non-duality. Maybe he was right not to?

   With all due respect to bhikkhu bodhi for his wonderful translations, he doesn't know what he is talking about.

   His first remark, that different conceptual frameworks are incompatible, has nothing to do with non-duality, which underlies (so to speak) all conceptual frameworks. His second remark, that the various non-dual traditions do not agree, is similarly uninformed by real insight into the absolute, which is always absolute in every respect. God knows what the bhikkhu imagines nirvana signifies. Nirvana, nonduality by another name, is beyond all conceptual frameworks. The question, "Is nirvana a dharma?" is a koan, a mindbreaker, insoluble. Nirvana, nonduality, is the mother of all dharmas. So to speak. This is all, in rumi's term, "birdsong from within the egg."

   Bhukkhu bodhi defends "his" tradition against other traditions, without regard to dharma or truth. Still a spiritual child, and theravada is his favorite toy. As the unnamed professional ballplayer said, "You're only young once, but you can be immature your whole life."


terry
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 9:11 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Bhukkhu bodhi defends "his" tradition against other traditions, without regard to dharma or truth. Still a spiritual child, and theravada is his favorite toy. As the unnamed professional ballplayer said, "You're only young once, but you can be immature your whole life."

terry, I read the essay and it strikes me as an informative exploration of the differences between Theravada and Mahayana that we might be able to learn from, whichever perspective we take. Bodhi does take a position on this but it doesn't necessarily mean his descriptions of the traditions is wrong. Can you elaborate on why you're calling him a spiritual child? I have friends who are life-long Zen practitioners, all of whom I respect, who don't hold this same level of... disdain?

Really curious.
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/20/19 7:57 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Chris Marti:
Bhukkhu bodhi defends "his" tradition against other traditions, without regard to dharma or truth. Still a spiritual child, and theravada is his favorite toy. As the unnamed professional ballplayer said, "You're only young once, but you can be immature your whole life."

terry, I read the essay and it strikes me as an informative exploration of the differences between Theravada and Mahayana that we might be able to learn from, whichever perspective we take. Bodhi does take a position on this but it doesn't necessarily mean his descriptions of the traditions is wrong. Can you elaborate on why you're calling him a spiritual child? I have friends who are life-long Zen practitioners, all of whom I respect, who don't hold this same level of... disdain?

Really curious.


aloha chris,

   Well, thanks for calling me on that. Probably most people don't want to be thought of, in a presumably adult forum, as "a spiritual child." After posting this, I asked myself, if bhikkhu bodhi had posted that essay on this forum and I was responding to him directly, would I have used those words? After consideration, yes, probably something of the sort. At least the gist.

   I love bhikkhu bodhi, I've spent a hundred hours with his translations of the pali suttas, followed his footnotes and his thinking on the translations of difficult words and phrases. Probably most of my familiarity with the suttas is though his translations.

   And, I love spiritual children, and if I ever get defensive it is usually in an effort to protect one. Us.

   However, there are some errors of thought I generally feel important enough to counter when I run across them. The tendency of religious figures to claim authority other than the self-evident truth of their teachings is one. Some errors are due to vanity, and are a corruption of mature thought. 

   The venerable's error is more that of a child, a sort of arrested development. In terms of the 8fold path, an attachment to rites and rituals. Back in the buddha's day, some say, an "arahant" was a person who understood and practiced the basic tenets of buddhism, that is, the four noble truths, and their implications, as far as it goes. The buddha was famous for having different levels of discourse for his followers depending on their attainments. Was even the buddha always in nirvana? No reason to think so. 

   At some point the buddha just smiles and holds up a flower. There is an insight which transcends language altogether. Anything you grasp in language is like seeing a picture of food as opposed to actually eating the fruit of what cannot be thought of or described.

   So, the bhikkhu is still caught in paradigms and language games. Read scripture, think about it, and read some more, that is his way. His work is of great value, he was a careful translator of monumental texts. He put himself in the mindset of pali transcribers, he lived and breathed suttas. Wonderful. All this careful scholarly work doesn't alter the nature of this essay, which is polemical. One tradition is set over against another. The fundamental errors I pointed out, that nonduality is multiple, that the buddha did not teach it, may be true to his version of theravada. Even so, besides being dangerous falsehoods, I think he exceeds his brief in making judgments about traditions he knows relatively little about.

   Religions differ, certainly, as cultures differ. Some plausibly argue that sticking to the mindset of a particular tradition is best. I think that this may have once been true, when one's own culture was overwhelmingly near and other cultures impossibly distant. There is something to be said for total immersion. I think in the global village there is only one paradigm, only one way of thinking; one all-inclusive global intellect, into which we are immersed. "God is borg," some call it. Anyone can speak to anyone and make themselves understood, more or less. There is more common sense and conformity than ever before, and less privacy and individuality.

  Now, bra, I could be wrong, the universal paradigm is an opinion, sure. But that the nameless void was the buddha's "core teaching" and that nonduality is independent of any religion or scripture are ideas I will likely always hold true. And tend to defend. For the time being.

   Anyhows, I'll try to be more careful about making such judgments, mr moderator. Perhaps a bit too much testosterone in the particular sentence you refer too. My bad.


terry
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/19/19 5:34 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Laurel Carrington:
So insight = enlightenment? Or awakening?

sniff
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Babs _, modified 4 Years ago at 9/18/19 2:29 PM
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Ryan:
You've put you're finger right on the central issue. Insight does not guarantee morality (obviously) but they are not perfectly unrelated either. There is some kind of link, but what is it exactly?

Best as I can discern, insight provides tools that can, but in no way-shape-or-form have to, engender compassion and morality. Becoming a top-level theoretical physicist could do something similar, but we would never expect that such knowledge as the physicists possess must lead onto any particular pattern of behavior would we?
Anyone mentioned heart yet?

Head: Wisdom/insight/emptiness/knowing
Heart: Sincerity/compassion/aliveness
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/18/19 3:20 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Anyone mentioned heart yet?

Yes, we have.
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Milo, modified 4 Years ago at 9/14/19 11:41 AM
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@Milo
On the one hand, there is some relationship between awakening and compassion, and on the other, we know that an awakened person can be totally immoral. I feel that we lack a comprehensive explanation for this. We can't just say that it's apples and oranges.


Oh I see.
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/16/19 9:42 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Griffin:
I had adopted the same view, but things like these Daniel's quotes made me question that assumption:

"The more wisdom or understanding of interconnectedness there is behind our intentions and actions, the more they reflect compassion and the more the results will turn out well."

"One of the things that stream entry did to me was that I began to perceive the world and those around me very differently. Everything suddenly seemed to me the inevitable movement of empty compassion." 

"What is interesting is that as soon as I got stream entry, all I could think about was how everything was the balanced manifestation of empty compassion, and that this applied to all beings without exception, and I did this with very strict noting technique in a very Theravadan context and set of conceptual frameworks. Suddenly so much Mahayana stuff that had been so obscure suddenly made sense, and I also saw how I had misread plenty of the Theravadan stuff to miss those aspects in it."

@Milo
On the one hand, there is some relationship between awakening and compassion, and on the other, we know that an awakened person can be totally immoral. I feel that we lack a comprehensive explanation for this. We can't just say that it's apples and oranges.

   Perhaps the real question is, what is the relationship between compassion and morality? If any.

   If compassion can be described as "empty," it is precisely morality that it is empty of. Without exception.

   As justice must be tempered with mercy, morality must be tempered with compassion. Justice without mercy is like morality without compassion. Justice and morality need help; mercy and compassion can walk by themselves. Justice without mercy is not truly just; morality without compassion is not truly moral. Yet we - that is to say, "the awakened" - can be merciful and compassionate without being just or moral. Mercy and compassion dwell in the heart; justice and morality in the eye of the beholder.


terry



tao te ching, trans stan rosenthal:


19.

It is better merely to live one's life, 
realizing one's potential, 
rather than wishing 
for sanctification.

He who lives in filial piety and love 
has no need of ethical teaching.

When cunning and profit are renounced, 
stealing and fraud will disappear. 
But ethics and kindness, and even wisdom, 
are insufficient in themselves.

Better by far to see the simplicity 
of raw silk's beauty 
and the uncarved block; 
to be one with onself, 
and with one's brother. 
It is better by far 
to be one with the Tao, 
developing selflessness, 
tempering desire, 
removing the wish, 
but being compassionate.




trans shi fu hwang:


19

Realize The Simple Self

Lao Tze says,
If sanctified tenets can be renounced, and craftiness given up, people will thus profit hundredfold.
If worship of benevolence can be renounced, and adoration of righteousness given up, people will resume filial piety and lenience.
If artful contrivance and scheming for gain can be given up, there will be no thieves or robbers.
These three epigrams may not be enough for guidance.
I'd bid even more as:
Sight the simplicity, arms enfold plain and true, extinguish selfish mind and eschew lust.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/17/19 12:43 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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terry:

As justice must be tempered with mercy, morality must be tempered with compassion. Justice without mercy is like morality without compassion. Justice and morality need help; mercy and compassion can walk by themselves. Justice without mercy is not truly just; morality without compassion is not truly moral.



This!
Edward, modified 4 Years ago at 9/15/19 10:15 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/15/the-con-artist-and-her-mark-very-modern-morality-tale
Tom C, modified 4 Years ago at 9/16/19 3:46 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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I always wonder when I hear about these types of scandals if someone who I class to be awakened and also very compassionate and moral like Thicht Nhat Hahn will ever have any scandals come out. It's hard to imagine him being involved in a sexual scandal - or even being angry etc to anyone.. in terms of the 10 fetter models - you'd imagine him to be pretty close.
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Griffin, modified 4 Years ago at 9/16/19 5:00 AM
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Tom C:
It's hard to imagine him being involved in a sexual scandal - or even being angry etc to anyone.. in terms of the 10 fetter models - you'd imagine him to be pretty close.

Not so long ago, I would say the same about Culadasa emoticon
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Jim Smith, modified 4 Years ago at 9/16/19 2:46 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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In another thread I wrote what pretty much sums up my view:

Enlightenment doesn't necessarily make you a nice person.

If you disagree with this, and believe bad behavior just means they weren't really enlightened, then you can never know who is a fake master until scandal breaks, and any master you meet could be an unrevealed fake.

Either way, you should never accept from a master anything that you wold not accept from any normal person.

And "good" teachers should be telling this to their students.
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Chris M, modified 4 Years ago at 9/16/19 3:20 PM
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If you disagree with this, and believe bad behavior just means they weren't really enlightened, then you can never know who is a fake master until scandal breaks, and any master you meet could be an unrevealed fake.

Yes, and that's the part I'm calling the "get out of jail free" card. It gets played when some awakened master pops up as a sexual predator or has their hand caught in the sangha's till. It's a backhanded way to protect those teachers who want to maintain the myth of infallibility.
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/16/19 8:25 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Chris Marti:
If you disagree with this, and believe bad behavior just means they weren't really enlightened, then you can never know who is a fake master until scandal breaks, and any master you meet could be an unrevealed fake.

Yes, and that's the part I'm calling the "get out of jail free" card. It gets played when some awakened master pops up as a sexual predator or has their hand caught in the sangha's till. It's a backhanded way to protect those teachers who want to maintain the myth of infallibility.


It takes a wise man to discover a wise man. Diogenes 


It is the privilege of the gods to want nothing, and of godlike men to want little. Diogenes 
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terry, modified 4 Years ago at 9/16/19 8:27 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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terry:
Chris Marti:
If you disagree with this, and believe bad behavior just means they weren't really enlightened, then you can never know who is a fake master until scandal breaks, and any master you meet could be an unrevealed fake.

Yes, and that's the part I'm calling the "get out of jail free" card. It gets played when some awakened master pops up as a sexual predator or has their hand caught in the sangha's till. It's a backhanded way to protect those teachers who want to maintain the myth of infallibility.


It takes a wise man to discover a wise man. Diogenes 


It is the privilege of the gods to want nothing, and of godlike men to want little. Diogenes 


I threw my cup away when I saw a child drinking from his hands at the trough. Diogenes 
George S, modified 4 Years ago at 9/17/19 9:31 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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What a perfect melodrama we are enjoying here, episode #10,137 of Saints and Sinners I believe. On the one hand, there is the thought that these are legal transactions between consenting adults. On the other hand, we know that most prostitutes are victims of abuse, circumstance and socio-economic inequality. Does anyone really want to be a prostitute? For that matter, does anyone really want to be a spiritual teacher? Both rent themselves out by the hour for the use and enjoyment of others, and at about the same rate it seems. The prostitute rents the body and the guru rents the self. If sex is a physical yearning for spiritual union with the self, then who is really using who here? Some of us get to throw stones, and some of us get to take them. Everything is just as it was meant to be and the lord in his infinite wisdom has declared that this is the perfect outcome for everyone involved. I do feel bad for his wife though. I don’t know any of the details, but my mother was a victim of marital infidelity and I know that sometimes it takes two to play that game as well. I don’t condone abuse, people who break laws and precepts should suffer the consequences, but given the right circumstances each of us has an almost unlimited ability to play the role of either victim or abuser.
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Not two, not one, modified 4 Years ago at 9/17/19 4:43 PM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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Nice comments terry!  And agnostic.  This the thread that keeps on giving.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Years ago at 9/18/19 3:25 AM
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RE: Culadasa Misconduct Allegations

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I’m thinking that having dharma teachers usually doesn’t encourage an illegal market of dharma teacher trafficking, but who knows.

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