Greetings friends and guides, this is Neem's new journaI, I have just finished a 70 day retreat -so close- but I had to leave to early. Finally got a distinct experience of high equanimity and the descriptions in the the stages and sub-stages of the paths as layed out by Ingram make complete sense on his Nanas ans Jhanas table. I have had five distinct experiences of high Equ. and two strong and clear near misses on retreat along with the one before. I would gratefully receive advice only from people qualified by direct experience & knowledge please. I will begin to offer notes from my practice for this advice, to see if there is anything else that they can suggest, once late mastery & high equ returns.

[/MCTB%2011.%20Equanimity?p_r_p_185834411_title=MCTB%2011.%20Equanimity]MCTB Equanimity

Still a few last question though, vibrational formless realms, might these be variations on the 5th and 6th Jhana's?

And I guess the important question is, how long how often and how consistent was peoples experience of High Equanimity before they attained. Would love to know what quality or level is needed, enough, good or excellent.

During the peak of my retreat I was having an hour of late mastery then two to three hours of high equ, I found it really hard to get it twice in the same day and though I put in every effort not to, once the practice started dropping out of high equ. that was it till the next day. Not mention all the early morning & evening re-ob.! the 3rd and 4th time I started to get the flow with out straining, so I was refining my early mastery. Just looking at endings and getting things flowing, anything else and any other tips for when i'm back there.
In the last ten days it was,
1st day Late Mastery & Near Miss/suggestion of collapse
2nd day same as above.
3rd day supper strain in L. M. break through H. Eq.
4th day same as above.
5th day Re-Observation Hints of L. M. just really learned to relax the practice
6th day same as above. sore neck
7th day smooth and fast flow strain minimal L. M. break through H. Eq.
8th day same as above L. M. break through H. Eq.
9th day worked really at it cause feeling a drop then just seem to slip through at the end of the day some how L. M. break through H. Eq.
10th Got bummed out from battling the drops and the pressure to maintain level of practice, on the possibility of fruition

Anyway I will be practising at home over the next few weeks and have given everything to the practice in the following months, I will kill dark night, which I"m back in obviously, and back in Australia. If the commitment to my practice as well as the Equ does not return I will joint Sayadaw U Pandita jr. at his retreat centre in Plenty, Victoria Australia. Also probably delete this page after so as not to offend and damage any involvement with Pandita tradition. Thanks

Define your criteria more clearly. I, and many others could probably offer some advice, or an opinion based on, as you say, "direct experience and knowledge" but you seem to have criteria suggesting a particular level of attainment before you'll "gratefully receive" advice from anyone.



Well the 11th ñana, Equanimity, is related to 4th samatha jhana rather than the arupa jhanas although, in my own experience, encountering these "vibrational formless realms" usually occurs around the point of gaining "Equanimity regarding Formations". Variations of the samatha jhana? I don't know if that's how I would describe them but I see where you're coming from.



An excellent level of practice is required, doing "enough" won't build the momentum necessary to get the required 'escape velocity'. It might though, but it's likely to take considerably longer to get to Fruition.

As for your notes, there's not a lot of info to go on there. If you've done 60 days of a 70 day retreat then what do you think prevented you from attaining Fruition?

Why are you so sure that you've got to High Equanimity? What sensations did you note, what implied this?
I ask this from a skeptical point of view as I've mixed myself up trying to map "in the moment" and speculating rather than simply noting accurately. It's easy to get confused and waste your time.



Can you be certain that you haven't passed through the A&P, possibly mistaken the confidence and clarity with 11th ñana, and are currently in the dukkha ñanas? Btw, a wee bit of advice with regards to Dark Night....you won't kill it. Fight it and it will fuck you up, just stay solid and accepting in your practice. ; )

I'm assuming that you have experience in these techniques before your not inconsiderable retreat time?

Whereabouts do you consider yourself to be on these Paths? Have you attained stream entry yet?

There's a lot of interesting stuff in your posts and you seem to know your stuff so I look forwards to seeing how your practice goes!

All the best,
Tommy

A technical point, i believe 5th-8th jhana are considered extensions of the 4th jhana, so Equanimity would encompass them all (indeed Daniel said he believes basically anyone must get a taste of some formless equanimity stuff before stream entry, and looking back, i did indeed notice those things).

That's what I was aiming for. Cheers!

Just my 2 cents...

what is "Late Mastery", "Early Mastery", "Mastery"? Do you mean what we call Re-Observation (after Desire for Deliverance, right before Equanimity)? Just trying to get the terminology straight.

Maybe those drops are not dropping out of High Equanimity, but dropping out of A&P and into Dissolution. I noticed it happening to me recently... I thought it was a fruition actually. There was basically an unknowing event - I used to not know what that meant, but literally just a moment where something happened and I didn't know what - then everything just slooooooooooowwwed down as I exhaled. I think that's A&P. Is that how the drop manifests? If not, how does it?

Thanks for your comments, guys.

That's a interesting point that I haven't heard before. Could you reference where you read it or heard it?

The reason I asked from people experience in the field, is cause they would have had quite a few experiences of formless realms, and and these formless realms can take on a vibrational aspect. So it's not exactly 4th or 5th Jhana because there is still an awareness of form and vibrational pleasant sensations.

I guess it could be in the mind, because for example during my retreat, I mistook the pleasure of equanimity for pleasure in the body, and was quite surprised when My teacher pointed out it may be in the mind, a rare hint, which i immediately discovered to be true, what I was experiencing was tranquillity, one of the 7 factors of enlightenment. If it is in the mind then, it is likely merely an effect of the first two A-Rupa Jhana's.
(But as you can see, I'm making some good guesses, but I'd like to know the facts from a theory perspective and from a practical perspective. A practical perspective isn't just a blind guess but a person who knows the theory and has experienced the results, discussed them with others who have experienced the results and founds some discrepancies in the theory or alternately confirmed the theory.)

But at that time I didn't really know what the 7 Factors were or how they affected ones progress. But I kind of got that shit together near the end of the retreat, very helpful!

Guys, I did do few threads on equanimity, there some have references of my first near miss, and links to some relevant points, the term vibrational formless realms is something that Ingram makes reference to in his chart, along with the 4 subdivisions of Equanimity regarding formations.



Ingrams Chart on Nanas and Insight Jhanas

Cool. - I have experienced 5th and 6th Jhana, and even 7th but its been a long time since I got 7th, wouldn't know how to now. But 5th and 6th are easy as in a regular occurrence. In practice I stabilise my relationship to my body so as not to become too formless and maintain insight practice, this is I assume common advice for people experiencing 5th and 6th Jhana. "Remember the outline of the body once in a while", that's what they say.

Are you speaking from experience?

Time another fortnight or so, maybe, possibly a month.


Yes the formations where moving fast, this could be A&P, but it wasn't, earlier in the retreat went through one day of very strong disgust, and had lots of 4th and 5th Jhana-body disappearing, and had tranquillity after lightning rapture moved through to strong Equ etc. long sits body very comfortable and peaceful not jumping around with a Kundalini awakening that happened 15 years ago bro. No joy in mind, very little pleasure in body lots of pleasure in mind which is associated with tranquility, in my experience.
Before looking into the 7 factors I didn't really make a distinction between tranquillity and equanimity( not regarding formation just the state of neutrality to sensations).

Yep, teacher, indirectly said so, by mentioning, that I was very advanced in my practice. He first started saying that around Late mastery, which I ignorantly thought might be High Equanimity at the time. I couldn't make sense of Ingram's charts until I actually hit High Eq. Look at the charts!


I'm a dark nighter cause Eq. is merely a temporary state, as are all the nana's until stream entry.

Good luck with the practice Tommy. Hope that clarified and help you understand what's going on with me and stuff to do with Eq. The Chart is above. Talk to me on my threads about equanimity if you have any more questions or if your seeking to clarify your understandings of the stage of Eq. Regarding formations in your own practice. But if your already there but aren't up to date in all the theory, maybe can help with my limited knowledge, though there are some real scholars, on the site.

Hmm just something on the forums. Not an extension, so much as they all have the 4th jhana as their base, and they are not considered jhanas in the suttas. They are quite distinct from the jhanas, too - just take a look at how their factors compare.

Could you expand on that? I feel like I never got that shit together (the 7 Factors).

About splitting Equanimity into Low Equanimity, Early Mastery, Late Mastery, and High Equanimity, I never did that, myself, while going through it. Looking back I think I can see what might have been High Equanimity (formless stuff, colors in front of my eyes becoming 3-dimensional instead of flat like usual, mind drifting).

I dnno, I got stream entry shortly after hitting equanimity the first time.. not sure what to say except, simply note as much as you can, all the subtle sensations, all the formless things. You can't will yourself into a Fruition, and it comes quite unexpectedly even now (though they come regularly), so you just gotta observe all sensations as they arise & pass and it'll click at some point.

Apologies Neem, I may have come off as an asshole (more so than usual) as I was dealing with a load of Dark Night crap at that point. No excuse, I know, but my apologies nonetheless.


Yes, I am.


It's all transient, unsatisfying and not-self after stream entry too, and after that as well. Cycles is cycles is cycles till you're done, and then they're still cycling anyway. All of the ñanas are stages, not states, it may sound like a really picky thing to mention but, as you know, there's a difference between a samatha jhana and a vipassana jhana. Would you want to solidify the 10th ñana?!?

That chart of Daniel's is excellent, I often refer to it myself, but don't get too hung up on diagnosing yourself based on the info there. Self-diagnosis is really hard to get right if you're being honest with yourself, but if you've got a teacher already then speak to them about it, if they're open to the pragmatic approach.


Cheers mate, I keep a practice thread over at KFD if you want to see what's happening with me at present. There's a lot of really good people on here, and a lot of high-level practitioners who're always good for some info when you're stuck.

Keep us updated anyhow and good luck with everything!

so depressing D= luckily there' s a way out


Woa you sure are! tons & tons of descriptions there... i hope writing out your reports & getting feedback on 'em is proving to be useful.

Just looking back over some of the things you wrote, this was really good, I think I missed it at the time. (Having just done another 30 day in April With Sayadaw U Pandita Jr I think I learnt and experience alot more. This was facilitated by Sayadaw U Pandita Jr in a non intellectual manner, he taught very simply compared to Sayadaw Vivekananda). Yeap, get what you mean, they aren't formless in the sense that a distinct arupa jhana is, but formless in the sense that the body is experience more as an energy field, which is why, as you stated, that they usually occur around "Equanimity regarding Formations". Correct.

About to go back through this whole post, was having a really hard time, after the 70 days, only been a week since the 30 days, but things are looking alot better. Maybe because of the hubris of hoping for stream entry on the first long retreat, isn't as evident this time. I was not really at all practicing for about 5 wks or more after the 70 days. So I was really dark nighting it, sorry if i was grumpy.



In the first retreat, had barely got a sense of what High Equ. is and hadn't really made a distinction between, the later stages or intervening stages of High Mastery. By that last statement I mean, vibration are flowing fast but they come in waves, so to the newbie, me, one can appear, to past through to a predominantly vibrational state, predominantly is the key word here. There are still a few solid areas that are arising and passing away with light to moderate pressures, aches & coarser heat. So it is my guess that one is sitting on the edges of either sit of High Mastery. I say either side because the other day i was meditating and got to some flow, and the whole body was vibrational for a period, but the mind was nowhere near calm enough to be in High Equ. I think it was because i'd done 2 hours of yoga with some pranayam (yantra yoga) as a prelude to my practice.
Why didn't I attain this retreat? My feeling is I learned alot, got used to extended period of high Equ and was able to get there sometime a few time in a day. And 2 out of 3 day was Equanimity, maybe thirty-fifty percent of my time awake was in equanimity. But my Mind, would not shut up, it kept on flickering me in and out of the stages i was in. I had prepared very poorly for that retreat. I hope to prepare alot better for the next, by keeping my mental health alot more stable. The Other reason i may have not attained, is continual attentive mindfulness. This is really hard to keep up when re-ob comes on, so developing tolerance and focusing ones practice to develop tolerance during the difficult time will really push up the base level of ones experience or centre of gravity. I was a bit slack at the start of the retreat and didn't push the pain envelope, if pain came around 1hr 15 or 1h 30, I didn't keep it going for the next 15min like i should. This means when of if the pain passes, one might push on for a longer sit because ones tolerance(the 7th factor equanimity) hit a high or was strengthened. That's probably the main reason, and somebody came later and gave us a cold/cough in the last 7 to 5 days.

Very true.


Interesting, I'm intrigued at what your getting at here but, i'm not getting it at all, please tell me more.

Interesting.



There's this experience that begins to manifest around fast flowing vibration. Which, I think Ingram calls a close call/ near miss, guessing from experience. It ranges I more extreme starting to fall/expand into ones self into with an associated flush of energy up the spine and into the head, this can take one into high equ or make one feel like one is in high equ because you feel great and nothing worries you-very high tolerance. Associated with this flush of energy and the fall into sensation -i noticed more on the last retreat- is a feeling of not receiving oxygen while breathing, this can make one gasp for air if the tolerance isn't high enough to ignore it. Also on the side are these nod off sort of like fall starting to fall asleep, when stronger they often have flushes of energy associated with them too, but they can make you sleep. When your not sleepy they may happen lots/many in a row. though not as strong as the first.

"But at that time I didn't really know what the 7 Factors were or how they affected ones progress. But I kind of got that shit together near the end of the retreat, very helpful!
Could you expand on that? I feel like I never got that shit together (the 7 Factors)."
If calmness isn't strong enough more, rapture. If tolerance isn't strong enough more calmness. they work up in a chain. Mindfulness, Investigation, Effort, Rapture, Tranquillity, Concentrating & Equanimity. Some of these are already in place so with the concentration it goes up a notch. The one the really seem to matter and feed into each other in secession are Rapture, Tranquility, Concentrating & Equanimity. The last two are kind of a pair that basicly manifest together when you hit eq regarding, though sometimes you need to work more with one or the other.



Yeah totally, all that stuff about splitting Equanimity, seems less significant now that i've worked it out. I mostly just keep an eye out for fast flowing vibration, tranquillity and try to stay concentrated with the body.
Hoped you might offer some insights, into the stream entry thing, life alot better since, more happiness, pleasure and detachment, less suffering, pain and attachment? In this very life is really good for expanding on the seven factors too.

Thanks for sharing, Neem.

In reply to the question about sources speaking or writing about fourth jhana as a basis for jhanas five through eight, here are a couple:

The Wings to Awakening by Thanissaro Bhikku:

[indent]...For a person practicing form jhana in either sense of the term, the equanimity experienced with the sense of beautiful radiance can then act as the basis for the formless levels of jhana, which the Canon terms the four "formlessnesses beyond form."These are invariably defined as progressive absorption in the perceptions of "infinite space,""infinite consciousness," and "there is nothing," leading to a fourth state of neither perception nor non-perception.[/indent]

Or Pa Auk Sayadaw:

From the earth Kasina, the meditator uses the light of the fourth material Jhāna to practice four immaterial Jhānas


Believe I also heard this on a concentration/jhana retreat a year or two ago with some IMS/Spirit Rock teachers. From personal experience, it makes sense too, which is most important.

Thanks Tommy, some really helpful and interesting stuff in there, looking back over the thread, you didn't write to harsh, but I looka bit a a reactionary git, thanks for putting up with me.

Yeap, i'm a bit slow with the info consumption, but just gave up computer game again, since the 30 days. Wanna read through all D.O. and then head over there, cause got some serious questions, about Dzogchen and Vipassana. Wanna write my Dzogchen teachers a letter but got to do the research first. Also more likely sympathetic to Folks Views. About AF and 3rd gear.
Sincerely Neem.