is this practice useful?

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adam ,, modified 13 Years ago at 2/22/11 2:53 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/22/11 2:53 PM

is this practice useful?

Posts: 105 Join Date: 2/19/11 Recent Posts
ello, I'm a pretty new buddhist, I've been doing tons of concentration, just recently started being able to reach first jhana, and when I'm not formally meditating I try to stay with the breath. I stay with it in class, walking, eating, even reading, while doing everything. my question is, is this useful? not the formal meditation bit, the constant anapanasati.

If not should i replace it with noting? all of the teachers who I really respect advocate only jhana practice in formal meditation, at least until a much higher level of concentration than I have now, so for formal practice I'm sticking with that, but throughout the day, is anapanasati useful? should I note? body scan? other?
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Ian And, modified 13 Years ago at 2/22/11 5:40 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/22/11 5:40 PM

RE: is this practice useful?

Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
adam gregory greene:
ello, I'm a pretty new buddhist, I've been doing tons of concentration, just recently started being able to reach first jhana, and when I'm not formally meditating I try to stay with the breath. I stay with it in class, walking, eating, even reading, while doing everything. my question is, is this useful? not the formal meditation bit, the constant anapanasati.

That depends on what you are doing, and what you mean by "staying with the breath." Being mindful of the breath is certainly not a bad thing. It can be useful in attenuating the emotions in an electrically charged moment, allowing one to discharge excess emotional energy. Yet, for overall mindfulness, being aware of the breath on the periphery of your attention can be a good training exercise to do, keeping you focused on the present moment. So, in that sense, if that's what you are doing, it can be a very useful practice. I use to do a variation of that myself, back in the day. I wouldn't necessarily encourage noting; although occasional noting might be helpful to bring you back to the present moment. But overall, noting (IMHO) would not be necessary.

Noting is a mindfulness and discernment exercise, used to develop mindfulness and discernment. It certainly won't hurt to use it, although you may tire of it after a while. That's why I say it isn't a necessary thing to. Although you are certainly free to do as you think best, whatever helps you develop these faculties and abilities.
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Tommy M, modified 13 Years ago at 2/23/11 3:50 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/23/11 3:50 AM

RE: is this practice useful?

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
adam gregory greene:
ello, I'm a pretty new buddhist, I've been doing tons of concentration, just recently started being able to reach first jhana, and when I'm not formally meditating I try to stay with the breath. I stay with it in class, walking, eating, even reading, while doing everything. my question is, is this useful? not the formal meditation bit, the constant anapanasati.

If not should i replace it with noting? all of the teachers who I really respect advocate only jhana practice in formal meditation, at least until a much higher level of concentration than I have now, so for formal practice I'm sticking with that, but throughout the day, is anapanasati useful? should I note? body scan? other?


Concentration is incredibly useful, and trying to stay mindful of the breath is never a waste of time but neither of them alone will lead to 4th path. Insight doesn't "replace" concentration, they're different practices with different outcomes, although vipassana involves concentration, just not in the same solidified way that samatha does. That's my opinion, for what it's worth.

As for noting, my advice would be to leave trying to note through the day until you're more solid in practice and can more accurately label sensation otherwise you're likely to find yourself floundering in content. Find what works best for you though, like I said before there's only so much that can be said about this stuff without actual practice and direct experience.

The teachers you respect are only giving one side of the story, regardless of tradition it's clear from the suttas that the Buddha taught insight practice, along with concentration and morality, as the path to enlightenment. Most communities you'll come across would not discuss vipassana as openly as we do here, the discussion of attainments is generally frowned upon and claiming arahatship will either get you kicked out, or make you into a laughing stock for five minutes 'cause, as you'll find from reading other sites like Dhammawheel, which is actually a very interesting website but populated by some incredibly hypocritical people claiming to understand the teachings of the Buddha, discussion of real life practice and experience isn't high on the priority list.

Keep reading MCTB, there's a whole section on this and Daniel Ingram gives some very interesting opinions and criticisms of the state of Buddhism in the West which, when you actively investigate how the hardcore, pragmatic approach to the Dharma is viewed by the majority of Western Buddhists, are unfortunately correct.

Noting vs. body scanning? Scanning is more of a Goenka tradition, something I'm not familiar with myself but Nikolai H on here spent about ten years practicing so he's your best best. In fact, the blog which him, Owen Becker and Clayton run is very, very interesting and might be of some help to you with regards to "doing" noting. Their podcasts are also a good laugh while being full of good info:

The Hamilton Project

My own practice begins with noting the sensation of the breath being inhaled and exhaled at the anapanasati spot, I'll usually do some breath counting at first and get into 1st jhana but then turn to the sensate experience i.e. the physical feelings, the mental images, the various constituent parts which make up "breath" and note them as "rising", "falling", "inhale", "exhale" etc, and stay with the sensation as awareness naturally expands. If you notice you're getting caught up in thought, gently bring your attention back to these simple sensations of "rising" and "falling". Say it out loud if you want to, it just takes practice but if you commit to it then you'll get there. It's not an easy ride, sometimes you'll feel like shit but it's ok 'cause pretty much every single one of us who post here will have gone through, or will be going through, similar unpleasantness so don't ever think you're alone in this, however true that may feel at that moment.

Anyway, I've talked enough. I'm away to enjoy a well deserved day off from work! Ha!

Good luck,
Tommy
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adam ,, modified 13 Years ago at 2/23/11 4:59 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/23/11 4:54 AM

RE: is this practice useful?

Posts: 105 Join Date: 2/19/11 Recent Posts
basically I try to be aware of the "four establishments" of mindfulness, I use the breath sort of as an anchor, a center for that mindfulness. Is this an insight practice? can it replace noting? because i definitely like it more, and as it doesn't require verbal thinking it can be kept up continuously.

Ian, you seem to be a very skilled jhana practitioner, what do you do when not formally meditating?
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Ian And, modified 13 Years ago at 2/23/11 1:14 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 2/23/11 1:14 PM

RE: is this practice useful?

Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
adam gregory greene:
basically I try to be aware of the "four establishments" of mindfulness, I use the breath sort of as an anchor, a center for that mindfulness.

That is perfect. That's exactly how the breath should be used.

adam gregory greene:
Is this an insight practice? can it replace noting? because i definitely like it more, and as it doesn't require verbal thinking it can be kept up continuously.

If it provides you with insight into the present moment, with a recollection of facts that you might not have been aware had you not been practicing mindfulness, then that's a good thing, right. I'm not necessarily certain one should view this as a practice. It's just being mindful, that's all. This is what Gotama taught that people should apply themselves to: mindfulness.

I've never practiced noting; found it rather boring. Although noting can be a good practice for new initiates to meditation and mindfulness practice in that it may help them to begin establishing mindfulness on a more or less constant basis. As a teaching tool, I'm not against it. So, from my point of view, yes it can replace noting.

adam gregory greene:

Ian, you seem to be a very skilled jhana practitioner, what do you do when not formally meditating?

Remain mindful. There is nothing more difficult than that, for most people who do not practice some sort of discipline or other.

The ability to remain mindful is enhanced, in my experience, by the concentration practices (samadhi and jhana). When one is able to stabilize the movement of mind and keep it still, one is able to "see things as they actually are" more clearly. Concentration practice enhances one's ability of mindfulness.
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Jimi Patalano, modified 13 Years ago at 3/9/11 7:38 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/9/11 7:37 AM

RE: is this practice useful?

Posts: 49 Join Date: 12/3/10 Recent Posts
adam:
when I'm not formally meditating I try to stay with the breath. I stay with it in class, walking, eating, even reading, while doing everything. my question is, is this useful? not the formal meditation bit, the constant anapanasati.

If not should i replace it with noting? all of the teachers who I really respect advocate only jhana practice in formal meditation, at least until a much higher level of concentration than I have now, so for formal practice I'm sticking with that, but throughout the day, is anapanasati useful? should I note? body scan? other?


From a Zen perspective, you should be careful not to lock yourself into to any fixed ideas of how to live or what to do - you simply cross each bridge as you come to it.

Sometimes the breath may need your attention; at other times, there are more important things, like paying attention in school or reading. There's nothing magical about the breath that is going to give you enlightenment if you pay attention to it all the time. Instead, when you do an activity you should do that activity with your whole self and your whole mind. This is the way to enlightenment (or, more accurately, this is enlightenment...).

Of course you should always be aware of what is going on, what you're experiencing in the here and now. If you're breathing, be aware that you are breathing; this is enough. As my teacher told me, you don't need to grab the breath in a stranglehold with your mind.

When you're walking, you should just walk. When you're eating, you should just eat. Shed your expectations and your preconceived ideas and just do what you need to do. On your deathbed, do you want to be thinking "Thank goodness I spent my whole life just paying attention to my breath!"?

What I'm trying to say is, give the breath its due, and that's it.
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Jimi Patalano, modified 13 Years ago at 3/9/11 7:44 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/9/11 7:44 AM

RE: is this practice useful?

Posts: 49 Join Date: 12/3/10 Recent Posts
adam j. hunter:

If not should i replace it with noting? all of the teachers who I really respect advocate only jhana practice in formal meditation, at least until a much higher level of concentration than I have now, so for formal practice I'm sticking with that, but throughout the day, is anapanasati useful? should I note? body scan? other?


Another thing - you don't need to note. If it stresses you out to always be trying to come up with words for things (I know this is the case for me), then don't do it. Just being aware is enough. You're in this for you, so do it for you, not for your teacher or the DhO or the Buddha or anybody else.

Additionally, don't get trapped by imagining that Theravada techniques like Mahasi noting are what the Buddha actually taught and that other meditation practices are useless retrospective additions. The Buddha taught many things, and he never wrote any of them down, and in fact none of his teachings were written down for a few hundred years after he died.

So what I'm saying is acting all this "should I this, should I that" is useful up to a point, but when you start to have an idealistic view of your practice, then you spoil it.
Jill Morana, modified 13 Years ago at 3/9/11 8:10 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/9/11 8:10 PM

RE: is this practice useful?

Posts: 93 Join Date: 3/1/10 Recent Posts
it's useful if it helps you live in the present more and more.

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