Hi all,

I am writing an article for a blog I write for on the benefits and disadvantages of noting or noting vs not noting. I would love to know what others think of noting here from your own experiences.

Please share your view on noting and why it is or isn't beneficial for you.

What are the benefits?

What are the disadvantages?

What do you think noting does for you?

If you are just aware of phenomena versus aware of phenomena and mentally or verbally noting it, what is the difference for you?

If you note, how do you note? Does it differ from the style of noting talked of in MCTB? Is it better or less effective?

Why is noting the bees knees? Is it the bees knees? Why is noting better than not noting or viceversa?

Please note, any responses here will be possibly used in the article.

Much metta,

Nick

At a recent retreat I had a chance to try straight-up noting practice vs. more spacious samatha based approaches. here's some of what I found:

first of all, I don't think there's any one practice that is the Right Practice all the time. At some points noting was the right thing to do, at other points other approaches proved to be more effective. For example, at the beginning of the retreat, I found that focusing on samatha is a good way to build concentration and to open up slowly and calmly to the practice. I found that once samadhi was established, the mind seemed to progress through the stages of insight naturally on its own with very little effort on my part. This is a practice that is easier for me to maintain over time. At other times, I found that noting would get me through the stages faster and I end up in a strong experience of Equanimity and with pretty strong samadhi as well but without spending the time calming the mind or going through the jhanas. This worked especially well when I found the mind to easily distracted and when I had the energy to keep the narrow focus I use while practicing Noting.

I did find that focusing on noting practice for a while is draining and also seems to leave the mind in a somewhat agitated, buzzing state where focusing on much of anything is difficult and the general tone is unpleasant. I could sometime relax the mind by using a very open focus and relaxing into sounds and into the feeling of the body, letting the mind slowly unwind and settle down into stillness.

Another problem I have with noting is that is seems to drive up my craving for attainments and my impatience. This is all well and good as long as I can notice those arising and passing and note them clearly but at some point I fail to do that and the practice starts to crumble as impatience takes over.

As I said before I think the main advantage of noting for me is the speed in which the practice unfolds when I note. Especially when the foundation is already solid, progress through the nyanas pretty fast.

HTH,
Eran.

Q: What are the benefits?
A: It helps to keep your mind focused. It's easy to think "oh of course I'm observing everything..." then to start thinking about that conversation you had a few days ago. Noting lets you know that you are actually observing sensations as they arise.

It also is good for subtle things, like boredom, neutrality, spaciousness, etc. Forcing yourself to label what is happening makes you take a good look at what is happening.

Q: What are the disadvantages?
A: It's annoying to start off with. It seems to prevent getting into really really deep jhana. It also may slow you down.. during some A&Ps I could listen to my computer humming and hear tiny vibrations in that hum, but way too fast to note. Also sometimes I did not know what to note, so I'd sit there confused for some seconds at a time. Also sometimes I would catch myself having a backlog, like a bunch of sensations would happen shortly after one another, and I would note the first, then a bunch would pass, then I'd go back, try to remember what happened, and note that, etc. That took me away from the present moment, which wasn't good.

Q: What do you think noting does for you?
A: I'm not sure... though I tell people to note I think I stopped actually noting a while ago. It did help me when I was starting off. It helped me get through some more annoying sits as I had something to do besides feel these painful sensations. Doing it verbally shortly after stream-entry, by suggestion of Kenneth Folk, helped get me back to continuing to progress instead of willing myself to get another Path fruition.

Q: If you are just aware of phenomena versus aware of phenomena and mentally or verbally noting it, what is the difference for you?
A: I haven't tried noting in a while, but I don't want to.. it seems too cumbersome at this point. Looking back, hmm.. I dnno, just what I said before.

Q: If you note, how do you note? Does it differ from the style of noting talked of in MCTB? Is it better or less effective?
A: Basically MCTB style. I didn't do it nearly as organized as Kenneth Folk says - I didn't even know what the foundations of mindfulness were until I went to that NYC group that one time.

Q: Why is noting the bees knees? Is it the bees knees? Why is noting better than not noting or viceversa?
A: I didn't know bees had knees. But basically... whatever it is MCTB gets people to do, and whatever people at DhO and KFD say to instruct others, it seems to be damn effective at getting stream entry. I don't know much of that can be attributed to noting, and how much to the simple way that MCTB lays it all out and the open and knowledgeable nature of the people in these communities.

Q: Please note, any responses here will be possibly used in the article.
A: That's too many syllables to use as a note: any-responses-will-be-used any-responses-will-be-used

Q: Much metta,
A: Always avoid alliteration

Q: Nick
A: Beoman

Both of these are familiar to me, and I've only been doing noting practice for six months tops. I find both of these problems are particularly troublesome with thoughts and mindstates.

Beyond a handful of really obvious and clearly identifiable mindstates (like anxiety, fear, boredom, amusement, calmness, joy, restlessness) it can be hard to put a label on them. I have caught myself using generic ones like 'interest' or 'investigation' as kind of filler when I wasn't sure what else to put. Now neither are technically untrue, but they can get in the way of accuracy.

Thoughts are, of course, horribly seductive. In my sit this morning, I caught myself thinking while still noting outloud. So I'd be happily noting "tension, pressure, coolness" while actually thinking about what I was going to do later. Once you realise that you've been thinking the thought is actually pretty much over, so you're not noting the present, you're noting the past. This is a problem and I'd really welcome suggestions or advice about how to deal with this.

And then there's the problem of the note as a precipitating its own stream of free association. So let's say I catch myself fondly remembering about a particular place I used to live in. I note "visual thought, nostalgia thought" (I'm using Kenneth's precise noting rather than general ones) but the word "nostalgia" then throws me into a host of other associated thoughts. Perhaps this is all okay, but it shows that the note is caught up with the stream of objects, not outside it.

What's the solution to the backlog problem? I note "pressure" but as I do so, a whole load of thoughts, some tingles and sounds come past. Do I note them, or do I note the pain that arises in my leg as soon as "pressure" finishes?

Andy

P.S. Great idea Nick. I love the Hamilton Project blogs.

Hi Nick,



Since the beginning of October, I'd been trying to note MCTB-style -- fast, inclusive, trying to miss nothing. It had been very slow going, and has mostly always felt heavy, ponderous, like I was forcibly dragging my attention around against its will from object to object. I redoubled my efforts (likely part of the problem) in mid-November, but still had very little luck.

Sometime in December, I switched to Kenneth Folk-style noting, based on the ideas in this Buddhist Geeks post: http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/03/the-yogi-toolbox-“power-tools”-for-investigating-reality/

I've had much better luck with it. The specific focus of the KF-style noting worked better for me, and provided the small bit of structure I seemed to lack, perhaps like breath counting was useful to me when starting samatha.

The focus on KF-style noting is about a note a second, and while I've been able to note much faster at times, it still feels more doable to me than how I understand MCTB noting. The interesting thing is that when I'm in the flow of it, I notice and touch with awareness many more objects per second than the ones I verbally or silently note.

I also seem to use a much lighter touch with it, and I suspect that if I had originally had this light touch of simple awareness to begin with, MCTB noting would have gone much easier for me.

I practice noting on my freeway commute, managing to get in between 5-8 hours of practice on a good week. I set a timer to chime every three minutes. When it chimes, I switch from noting sensations from the five senses to vedana, then to feelings/mind state, and then to thoughts. Think of it as practicing piano scales -- it's not what I'd do in a performance, but it certainly does help get the mechanics of it nailed down solidly.

And truth be told, I do get into a flow with it a lot of times, and at that point, the distinction between practicing noting and doing noting disappears.

When I note during closed-eye meditation, though, I note whatever comes up as it comes up.


Hoping this is useful,
Andy

I really like this idea of using a timer to switch between the different foundations. I'll give it a go. Thanks other Andy!

Andy

Thanks for the info guys. Keep it coming, yogis! Bump!

Why hasn't anyone mentioned the fact that the mind has a verbal representation for each sensation, and that if you don't note it, you're still identified with it? By noting, you remove yourself from this verbal identification.

I don't agree with the way people teach noting. They say do this: "inhale inhale inhale inhale pause itch annoyance exhale exhale exhale noise pause itch". Makes no sense at all.

Surely you have to identify what word the mind naturally uses when you breathe, and then note that. My mind doesn't use the word "inhale" or "in" and it certainly doesn't use the word "rising". If anything it uses the word "breathe" on both the inhalation and exhalation. If I go around saying "rising" when my own mind uses the word "breathe" what sort of problems is that going to cause?

That's a very interesting take on it, CCC. For me, I find that rather than the word, it's something more like the act of knowing that I'm noting.

I came across some work by a psychologist at Manchester, Adrian Wells who describes something called metacognitive awareness that seems to me to be close to what's happening during noting as I experience it. His work is on Generalized Anxiety Disorder. He's found that certain rapid attention switching exercises (which are similar to noting in a way) can be very helpful for people with GAD. On the other hand more traditional 'meditation' (concentration-based I'm guessing) can actually be a problem for GAD people - to the point of setting off a panic attack. IN this context, I'd day that noting probably really powers my metacognitive awareness.

Paul

Bump!

I was thinking last night about noting.

When I watch my breath very closely, I automatically put myself in the position of the silent witness. By objectifying the sensation I disentangle myself from it. So that's not self taken care of, automatically. If I'm fairly continuous with my attention, impermanence of sensations should also be an automatic realisation, therefore not necessary to note. Unsatisfactoriness - I don't know, I have a feeling that's automatic too. Who could be satisfied with something that is impermanent and not self?

So really, meditation instruction comes down to:
Pay very close attention to every moment of the breath.

And that's it!

I'm going to become a meditation teacher!

In the above post, "noting" should be "the three characteristics"

Something wrong with edit function.

it's very simple, indeed. or more accurate is: pay moment-to-moment attention to the arising and passing away of every sensation (not just of the breath).