Anupada Sutta - Discussion
Chris Marti:
I guess what I'm trying to grasp is the difference in methods for reaching similar understanding, and both similarities and differences in the experiences. Are there similar or other states that one learns to reach within Mahayana, Dzogchen and/or Mahamudra that functions as similar lenses for this understanding, and if so, in what ways are they similar to and different to the arupa jhanas? Or is the point rather to achieve similar understandings without using specific states as lenses?
In my humble opinion, these are questions that don't have "correct" answers. It's like having a favorite color - you can experience all the different practices just like you can see all the different colors. You will relate better to some than to others. They will engender different feelings and have different implications. Having an "accurate" mapping of Mahayana non-dual states versus Theravada jhanas won't make any real difference to your awakening. It's fun conjecture, though. and just to say it - having the experiences of both tells me these are not the same things. But as I said before, take me with a grain of salt!
Thankyou!
My limited experience from following Michael Taft’s guided meditations have gotten me into states that I would say are different from the jhanas, some of which I recognize from before. Whether they really are Mahayana non-dual states I cannot tell for sure, but the subjective difference between the states is what made me ponder about wherein the difference lies. I used to believe that they were more alike than what I now think, so my questions are generated from my subjective experience. I guess I'll just keep on exploring how different approaches resonate with me and what I can learn from them.
I understand that this kind of mapping is unnecessary for awakening. It just fascinates me and makes me SOOOOOOO curious. I want to understand all of it and learn how to navigate between the variety of states with precision and learn about the quirks and limitations of my mind and learn which limitations can and cannot be transcended. I want to understand how all the different states relate to each other and how they shape and limit and expand our experience in different ways. I don't even know why I want to learn all this. I just do. Quite frankly, I don't understand how it would be possible not to want to learn it. Even if there are no correct answers. I mean, there are still possible answers. I want to know all of them.
(Desire for deliverance much...?
Craving noted.)
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
(Desire for deliverance much...?
Craving noted.)It's amazing how our minds can take us through the catacombs of cognition, like a hall of mirrors, before we finally note the fact. Curiosity is extremely helpful in this arena and even curiosity around understanding the processes, relationships, and transactions concerning altered states of consciousnesses, but I found that trying to cognize all of this wore me down into a clueless dunce. I had always enjoyed the retrospective intellectual view of the contours around this very intriguing terrain, but these days I try to keep things straightforwardly simple perhaps for my own sanity. There's an internal tutor who keeps uttering these intuitions about how absurdly simple it all is and this is helping me to disengage from my intellectual pursuits.
I had always enjoyed the retrospective intellectual view of the contours around this very intriguing terrain, but these days I try to keep things straightforwardly simple perhaps for my own sanity.
There's a pattern to this that I've noticed in myself over a long period of time. At first, I just wanted to find the right practice and get somewhere. When I did get traction I soon developed an appetite for maps, models and increasingly complex explanations of everything related to my practice. You can see this is my old posts on DhO and on Awakenetwork (you'd have to go back to pre-2010 to see this). I wanted to explain everything to anyone who'd listen, even foisting my explanations on poor, unsuspecting victims. Then as my practice unfolded, around MCTB third path territory, things got quiet and simple, and I developed an unwillingness to process complex stuff. I didn't want to deal with it and found I really wasn't even able to at one point. Sometime later I realized this is all sort of stage-dependent and doesn't really matter in the grand scheme, so I stopped even thinking about it. Until just now, that is.
Bardo Cruiser:
Yes, letting go of this part of things can be a little tricky. I'm not sure if this is related but recently I have been losing the ability to conceptualize and this is a part of my mind that I really like. I find it quite disconcerting especially when I need to respond to somebody with carefully considered thought. Instead, I find I have to trust that what comes out will be ok and most of the time it is but it still requires me to throw caution to the wind.
Ah, that part isn't empty yet! Time for some close introspection.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
It's a bit like watching an amazingly well programmed AI in action
That's such a pertinent analogy!
Amazingly well programmed ... except for the out of control feedback loop linked to the faulty reward mechanism. Actually, you can find a very nice analogy for the problem at this link.
A humble contribution compared to the wisdom from Chris and Shargrol. But we all do what we can!
Actually, you can find a very nice analogy for the problem at this link. A humble contribution compared to the wisdom from Chris and Shargrol. But we all do what we can!
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
. In the meantime, it is fascinating to learn about all the tricks that the mind tries. It is pretty clever in all its delusion, and I think that's kind of cool. It's a bit like watching an amazingly well programmed AI in action - the outcome may not be that impressive per se, but the fact that it's doing all this based on its conditioning, that is fascinating. It is creation.
Watching AI in action ---- that's really my experience, too. Good metaphor. I find it absolutely amazing and mysterious and actually pretty impressive when you consider we started out as a single cell and now we're having these conversations about the nature of mind!
Ultimately, I think practice doesn't make you dismissive of mind and it's tricks (well it could, but that kind of indulgent negativity hopefully gets seen through as unhelpful and petty), but rather practice leads to the appreciation of the mystery of experience itself.
Cool! Yeah, it is quite the miracle, isn't it?
That was what I was thinking and hoping for. I know that my former teacher is pretty adamant about seeing through the renouncing of the world, and I appreciate that. I thought about saying something about it but thought that there was a risk that it would come off as argumentative or something, since nuances are sometimes difficult online. My clarifying comment about the jhanas only being a distortion if one mistakes them for some ultimate truth was an attempt at saying something about it.
The thing is, jhanas and other states and mappings don't have to lead somewhere for me to find them interesting. The fact that all this occurs is enough. That fascinates me. I don't need them to be a refuge. I want to experience them just because I can, if that makes any sense. They are cool just as they are, despite being no refuge and no ultimate truth. I want to explore all those roads not only because of where they lead but also because the roads themselves are experientially interesting. I think my phrasing earlier about the jhanas being distortions and asking about other ways allowed for reading between the lines in a way that was misleading. I'm not looking for the least distorted way, as I'm fairly confident that the road I'm on is good enough. I'm looking for every nook and cranny, just because I enjoy it, and if there are more nooks and crannies than those I have already heard about, I would want to know, because that would mean more to explore. Some information about the terrain also makes it easier not to mistake things for something that they are not, which probably makes the insight work a bit easier. Even if it doesn't, it's still nice to read up a little about the places I visit on my journey. I know that most of it is unnecessary for awakening. I just enjoy it anyway. That's okay, right? It's not everyone's cup of tea, sure, but it is mine. And even if that were to turn out to be a temporary thing, so what? I still enjoy it now and it doesn't harm anyone, does it? I take delight in exploring the mystery just for the sake of exploring. My comment about desire for deliverance was a joke about my enthusiasm and an acknowledgement that I'm aware that I get carried away. This mammalian body and this conditioning tend to produce that kind of pattern. I figure that if I'm going to get carried away, this is a relatively healthy outlet. I'm going to allow myself to indulge in this, just like the Buddha did with the jhanas.
I like your approach.
Yeah, it is quite the miracle, isn't it? That was what I was thinking and hoping for. I know that my former teacher is pretty adamant about seeing through the renouncing of the world, and I appreciate that. I thought about saying something about it but thought that there was a risk that it would come off as argumentative or something, since nuances are sometimes difficult online. My clarifying comment about the jhanas only being a distortion if one mistakes them for some ultimate truth was an attempt at saying something about it.
The thing is, jhanas and other states and mappings don't have to lead somewhere for me to find them interesting. The fact that all this occurs is enough. That fascinates me. I don't need them to be a refuge. I want to experience them just because I can, if that makes any sense. They are cool just as they are, despite being no refuge and no ultimate truth. I want to explore all those roads not only because of where they lead but also because the roads themselves are experientially interesting. I think my phrasing earlier about the jhanas being distortions and asking about other ways allowed for reading between the lines in a way that was misleading. I'm not looking for the least distorted way, as I'm fairly confident that the road I'm on is good enough. I'm looking for every nook and cranny, just because I enjoy it, and if there are more nooks and crannies than those I have already heard about, I would want to know, because that would mean more to explore. Some information about the terrain also makes it easier not to mistake things for something that they are not, which probably makes the insight work a bit easier. Even if it doesn't, it's still nice to read up a little about the places I visit on my journey. I know that most of it is unnecessary for awakening. I just enjoy it anyway. That's okay, right? It's not everyone's cup of tea, sure, but it is mine. And even if that were to turn out to be a temporary thing, so what? I still enjoy it now and it doesn't harm anyone, does it? I take delight in exploring the mystery just for the sake of exploring.
My comment about desire for deliverance was a joke about my enthusiasm and an acknowledgement that I'm aware that I get carried away. This mammalian body and this conditioning tend to produce that kind of pattern. I figure that if I'm going to get carried away, this is a relatively healthy outlet. I'm going to allow myself to indulge in this, just like the Buddha did with the jhanas. I like your approach.
Chris Marti:
I had always enjoyed the retrospective intellectual view of the contours around this very intriguing terrain, but these days I try to keep things straightforwardly simple perhaps for my own sanity.
There's a pattern to this that I've noticed in myself over a long period of time. At first, I just wanted to find the right practice and get somewhere. When I did get traction I soon developed an appetite for maps, models and increasingly complex explanations of everything related to my practice. You can see this is my old posts on DhO and on Awakenetwork (you'd have to go back to pre-2010 to see this). I wanted to explain everything to anyone who'd listen, even foisting my explanations on poor, unsuspecting victims. Then as my practice unfolded, around MCTB third path territory, things got quiet and simple, and I developed an unwillingness to process complex stuff. I didn't want to deal with it and found I really wasn't even able to at one point. Sometime later I realized this is all sort of stage-dependent and doesn't really matter in the grand scheme, so I stopped even thinking about it. Until just now, that is.
For me this is not so much about finding the right practice as it is about navigating the experiential terrain. That is probably stage related too, though, like so many other things, but right now it is motivating me and I enjoy it thoroughly. Also, it seems like a few people remain phenomenology nerds throughout their practice (thankyou universe!). Whether I'll be one of those is an empirical question, of course, but let's just say that it wouldn't surprise me that much if it were to turn out that way.
Bardo Cruiser:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
(Desire for deliverance much...?
Craving noted.)It's amazing how our minds can take us through the catacombs of cognition, like a hall of mirrors, before we finally note the fact. Curiosity is extremely helpful in this arena and even curiosity around understanding the processes, relationships, and transactions concerning altered states of consciousnesses, but I found that trying to cognize all of this wore me down into a clueless dunce. I had always enjoyed the retrospective intellectual view of the contours around this very intriguing terrain, but these days I try to keep things straightforwardly simple perhaps for my own sanity. There's an internal tutor who keeps uttering these intuitions about how absurdly simple it all is and this is helping me to disengage from my intellectual pursuits.
Thanks for sharing! I don't feel worn down by it, though, but happy happy that there is so much to explore empirically. It's not the intellectual understanding that drives me, but the experiential dimension. I ask for navigational purposes with regard to practising.
curious:
To answer your question Linda/Polly ... one type of experience comes from deep mindfulness of the body, perceiving the flow of sensations as they arise and pass away. Then this meditation moves into mindfulness of the flow of all perceptions, with the twinkling of sense data arising and passing away across the whole perceptual field. The conception of the body disappears, very much like a dissolution into the sensory field, and all that remains is the twinkling of sensa quanta. But the sense quanta still include bodily data, and while it feels like a dissolution it doesn't actually seem to be the dissolation nana.
So far I’m with you. All my most vivid experiences of this have been outside the dissolution nana. This is what I meant with it being more on the deconstruction side, because this is part of what Michael Taft’s map for deconstruction deals with. He talks about it in one of his latest podcasts, the one from September 24th. At the moment I’m working on zooming out from more narrow focuses in order to have this happening to a wider range of perceptions, not just the kinds that are easiest for me to deconstruct. I think his model is pretty much a way for those who come from vipassana to integrate non-dual experiences with their vipassana. It would be very interesting to hear what you think about that specific podcast.
Sometimes, at this point, the dimension of space also disappears, and all the sense data are right there, completely immediate with no separation (and yet they are still distinct quanta).
I once had the experience that time went away and all the sense data were right now. They were spatially organized somehow, though, I think. Or maybe that’s just how I intellectualized it afterwards.
Other times, this state may flow into sleep yoga (sleeping with mindfulness of the flow of sensation).
I think this may be what’s happening to me rather often lately. Is that possible at this point in my practice or am I misinterpreting some other state? For me it’s a state that doesn't seem concentrated at all, as there is no focus whatsoever, but sensations are flowing. My body seems to be asleep. There are occasional outbreaths where my mouth opens itself to let out a burst of air in a way that surprises me every time because it sounds as if I were aleep and I know that I was completely aware. Those sudden occurrances bring about a brief moment of conceptualizations that interrupt the sense of there being just a flow. For a moment my mouth and breath are conceptualized both as mouth and breath and as associated with this particular body, and there are conceptualizations about sleep and non-sleep, but outside of those interruptions, such concepts do not arise. There's just a flow and no-one there to conceptualize it or own it. The body temperature seems to drop as if in deep sleep and afterwards I feel like I have slept, except for the fact that there was awareness the whole time. Is that the kind of state you are referring to? Or how would you describe it?
The other types of experiences are in non-dual absoprtions. One has a similar sense of flow to the that described above, but is more active and engaged with the brightness and immediacy of reality that knows itself and is immediate and present just right where it is.
I think I have very brief glimpses of this. Love those.
Another goes further and shifts the sense of identify into that bright reality to merge with the field of awarenes - becoming one with the source.
That sounds very similar to what happened to me when I was drawn in by the nada sound, although I interpreted that as a fourth jhana thing that resulted in fruitions. All external senses gradually went away and everything turned into bright whiteness which submerged me and took away both the world and eventually me. Even the nada sound fell away so there was absolute silence, and then cessation of experience. There’s a palpable difference though: it was more the experience of having everything taken away than merging with it. It was a drawn-out tearing as if being on the verge of a black hole, except it was white and nothing but white light existed.
In both cases, the sensations of the body are still present, but the conception of the body is not.
That’s a familar experience.
Thanks for asking!
You are very welcome. Thank you! Fascinating conversation!
P.S. Yes, still a bit of an intellectual nerd. But it doesn't grab me anymore - more just lazing on a sunny afternoon.
Great! It still grabs me, more or less, but most of the time the fascination is joyful. I assume that I will uncover layers of dukkha in that joy eventually, apart from what is apparent already, but after all, phenomenology and the kind of conceptualizing that comes with it is pretty much what I do for a living, albeit so far not with meditation practice as its focus, so I think it is pretty likely that I will continue with it to some extent just because it is a preference regardless of grabbings.
Gotama's taken all my fear
And left me here without a care
Lazing on a sunny afternoon
And I can't grab at any trouble
My anxiety's reduced to rubble
All I've got's this sunny afternoon
... with apologies to the Kinks
