No idea need help

john doe, modified 10 Years ago.

No idea need help

Posts: 8 Join Date: 3/30/11 Recent Posts
Last night went through 1st 2nd 3rd 4th jhanas in order, didn't think there was anything really to do and wanted to go to sleep, don't think the mind came out of 4th jhana. At some point every experience started to be aggravating, extremely distasteful, felt like I wanted to puke, cry and die at the same time to make it stop. This went on for maybe 10 minutes and was very extreme, it only really stopped when I started thinking "now, just focus on now", and then everything slowly settled down and now... now I don't have a clue, up from down, white from black.

I am completely and utterly lost as to what... just... I don't know. Can anyone help me?

Thanks in advance. I won't be going back to sleep...
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Bruno Loff, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: No idea need help

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Once I was trying to sleep but every time I would relax just a little my spine would burst with extremely intense ecstatic energy, making me feel like I was completely swept away. I couldn't sleep, had to take a walk until it settled.

Don't worry, it'll pass.
john doe, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: No idea need help

Posts: 8 Join Date: 3/30/11 Recent Posts
It wasn't anything like that, and it had passed after that 10 minutes, I was just hoping to find out what it was.

It was utter disgust with every experience, every moment, for several minutes. I don't mean just a general emotion, but intense hits one after another many per second.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: No idea need help

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john doe:
At some point every experience started to be aggravating, extremely distasteful, felt like I wanted to puke, cry and die at the same time to make it stop. This went on for maybe 10 minutes and was very extreme, it only really stopped when I started thinking "now, just focus on now", and then everything slowly settled down and now... now I don't have a clue, up from down, white from black.

I am completely and utterly lost as to what... just... I don't know. Can anyone help me?

sounds like you were getting to know suffering, i.e. getting into the Knowledges of Suffering, i.e. the Dark Night. tis painful!

john doe:
It was utter disgust with every experience, every moment, for several minutes. I don't mean just a general emotion, but intense hits one after another many per second.

In particular, sounds like the Disgust Nyana with a ton of concentration.
john doe, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: No idea need help

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I don't know (read those links but not sure if it's the same thing), except that it was more intense than anything I could have imagined. All I wanted was for it to stop, for everything to stop, and maybe it wasn't 10 minutes but it felt like it was. When it was over I was just laying there empty headed with my eyes open, and there was nothing but seeing. There was the external stuff, the eyes, and then the experience on the other end, all connected at the same time without any dualistic split. That's the only thing that was noticeably different. It may be a fluke, but the meditative experience was insanely painful, no sensation was worth even touching I just wanted distanced from all of it. Everything seems more or less back to normal now, actually did go back to sleep for a while.

I have to apologize, I've been going through the threads here and notice most people here are knowledgeable about all these different terms like Dark Night and such (I have no clue), attend meditation retreats and the like. I'm just a normal guy, I've never even chosen a tradition. I use the Four Noble Truths and Three Marks (and the Path) for guidance, keep the precepts, and meditate every now and again, even less jhana, not even calling myself a Buddhist really. My post here is because I've heard this is a very knowledgeable forum on such things and I didn't want to involve my regular forums with personal stuff.

I appreciate everyone trying to help. In the end I'm just going to write it off as another experience and sally forth; it's not the first, just the worst so far. If it's something that keeps re-occurring and I get stuck, then I'll _really_ need your help!
john doe, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: No idea need help

Posts: 8 Join Date: 3/30/11 Recent Posts
Just to add something I'm not sure on the jhanas. I know there are different kinds of jhana and such. For me, the first one that comes up is bliss completely absorbing the mind (letting the mind do what is natural for it), the second letting go of that bliss somewhat while remaining concentrated and not needing any effort to stay that way, the third all judgments and perceptions stop, and the fourth seems to be completely empty and sees all arising phenomena equal/equanimously. These may not even actually be right, they might not correspond to the actual jhanas they're only my experiences from last night. So when I say I went through 1st, 2nd, 3rd and finally to 4th... these are what I mean. It was completely linear, almost as if directed, but I didn't start meditating with any intent or force anything, I just let things go.

It was at this point, empty with equanimity, that I _think_ this happened. Opened my eyes while still in that state and then decided "well, nothing to do now, might as well sleep" and turned on my side to go to sleep. Wasn't really paying attention and then the disgust for every experience started growing and became completely overwhelming. Maybe this extra info will help. It's entirely possible that my mind was not in that particular state at that particular time, so for diagnosis purposes it might be best to not take it as read.

(BTW I'm reading Master the Core Teachings of the Buddha now.)
john doe, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: No idea need help

Posts: 8 Join Date: 3/30/11 Recent Posts
Started reading MCTB because of all of this, made it through the three characteristics. After reading about "vibrations" of impermanence, I started to actually notice these. I'd notice there was sound followed immediately by the knowing of sound, sight followed immediately by the knowing of sight, and so forth, one quickly following another. Before I had only focused on impermanence in an everyday way, such as every "thing" will change and break apart, nothing lasts.

There was a tension building my forehead after I took a break, so I thought it might be the mind trying to unravel something and a good time to meditate. When meditating, these vibrations became very prevalent, and any separate self seemed to dissolve in light of them and there was no happiness to be found in any of them. It was just floating in a sea of experience, one being followed directly by another without stopping, and any thought of there being anything _other_ than simply experience and that which is experienced vanished. There was no room for anything else! It was a pain here, a sound here, a thought here, a smell here, another pain here... on and on and on. Pure experience.

I was stuck. Everything was just vibrating and I didn't know what to do with that, how to get beyond it. I wanted to find the peace that's supposed to be what this is all about. With that intent, it was as if the mind took cue and acted. A bubble, a sphere of pure awareness took itself out of the vibrations and became completely still. The awareness was still, and all around it were the vibrations, but the vibrations were not disturbing the awareness. There was peace. It was as if the awareness was no longer tied to its objects, no longer suffering from everything constantly changing.

Eventually this simply became the way things are. It's not so different from before. After evaluating, there's a change in perspective. Before I thought of sight and the awareness of sight, thinking they were separate. Now I only see the sight as the knowing of a sight object, without anything else behind it. Same with sound, taste, smell and touch, even thought somewhat. Though with thought there's some confusion; it's not self, it has its conditions, but what is it exactly? Thoughts are sight, sound and the like, but not necessarily memories or reality...

This seems to be something important, maybe more important than what happened earlier.
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: No idea need help

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What's your practice right now? What have you done previously?

Speculation's a waste of time without some information. Get down to the facts and tell us what's going on when you sit right now, that way it'll be much easier to help and possibly offer some advice.

This seems to be something important, maybe more important than what happened earlier.


Two words. Arising. Passing.
john doe, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: No idea need help

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I don't know what I've done previously, except that I had a really strong meditative experience about a year and a half ago where I saw the arising and passing of generations of humans one after the other; birth, aging, death again and again, history on the move with no beginning or end. Before that it was hard to imagine the past or the future, afterward it was hard to imagine there being any static present since everything is always changing. Change was all that I could see in anything, and I could never wrap my head around any kind of soul-idea after seeing the transient nature of everything. This pretty much destroyed a major portion of the suffering that I had, I was in a bliss-state or afterglow for hours and then at complete peace for about 8 days or something before I started to come back to the real world. Ever since my perspective has been different, but I haven't had any more major experiences until the first one that this thread begins with.

When I sit right now my mind seems to go into a strong state of concentration, almost jhana-like, on its own within about 15 seconds. So no clue about either of the above experiences then? I thought that's what this section was for, diagnosing "what was that?" experiences.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: No idea need help

Posts: 2198 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
john doe:
When I sit right now my mind seems to go into a strong state of concentration, almost jhana-like, on its own within about 15 seconds. So no clue about either of the above experiences then? I thought that's what this section was for, diagnosing "what was that?" experiences.


I kept starting & stopping my reply, but here it is:

Started reading MCTB because of all of this, made it through the three characteristics. After reading about "vibrations" of impermanence, I started to actually notice these. I'd notice there was sound followed immediately by the knowing of sound, sight followed immediately by the knowing of sight, and so forth, one quickly following another. Before I had only focused on impermanence in an everyday way, such as every "thing" will change and break apart, nothing lasts.
yup 3 chars

There was a tension building my forehead after I took a break, so I thought it might be the mind trying to unravel something and a good time to meditate. When meditating, these vibrations became very prevalent, and any separate self seemed to dissolve in light of them and there was no happiness to be found in any of them. It was just floating in a sea of experience, one being followed directly by another without stopping, and any thought of there being anything _other_ than simply experience and that which is experienced vanished. There was no room for anything else! It was a pain here, a sound here, a thought here, a smell here, another pain here... on and on and on. Pure experience.
yup, the A&P (4th nyana)

I was stuck. Everything was just vibrating and I didn't know what to do with that, how to get beyond it. I wanted to find the peace that's supposed to be what this is all about. With that intent, it was as if the mind took cue and acted. A bubble, a sphere of pure awareness took itself out of the vibrations and became completely still. The awareness was still, and all around it were the vibrations, but the vibrations were not disturbing the awareness. There was peace. It was as if the awareness was no longer tied to its objects, no longer suffering from everything constantly changing.
not sure here. could be a samatha jhana popping up, could be equanimity (11th nyana)

Eventually this simply became the way things are. It's not so different from before. After evaluating, there's a change in perspective. Before I thought of sight and the awareness of sight, thinking they were separate. Now I only see the sight as the knowing of a sight object, without anything else behind it. Same with sound, taste, smell and touch, even thought somewhat. Though with thought there's some confusion; it's not self, it has its conditions, but what is it exactly? Thoughts are sight, sound and the like, but not necessarily memories or reality...

based on this and your latest post, it sounds like a permanent shift. if it is, indeed, permanent, then it's probably stream entry. in that case try to get a fruition and see if that's what it is. more likely in my opinion is that you're till in an A&P and that you'll pass into dark night, but hey, it could've been stream entry! read this to figure out whether it was
john doe, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: No idea need help

Posts: 8 Join Date: 3/30/11 Recent Posts
Oops sorry I edited my post. When you said A&P it immediately brought to mind my first major meditative experience. Maybe if we look at that one, then the first one this thread started on, and then the third one we can get a clearer picture?

I'll be honest with you my meditation sucks. I don't do it nearly often enough. No schedule, no planning, just when I feel like it. This may be a great hindrance where it comes to progress, but I haven't been trying to experience certain things; I noticed some people here know specifically what they're doing, what they're trying to experience and what those experiences are, and have clear goals of stream-entry, 2nd path, etc... I'm unclear on this stuff, so any and all help at interpreting these experiences is very appreciated. I'm reading MCTB now also.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: No idea need help

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john doe:
Oops sorry I edited my post. When you said A&P it immediately brought to mind my first major meditative experience. Maybe if we look at that one, then the first one this thread started on, and then the third one we can get a clearer picture?
john doe:
Oops sorry I edited my post. When you said A&P it immediately brought to mind my first major meditative experience. Maybe if we look at that one, then the first one this thread started on, and then the third one we can get a clearer picture?

hmm perhaps. it's definitely clear you got to the A&P stage, so no doubt about that. you can get it many times before becoming enlightened so the number of times it happened doesn't really matter. if you hit the A&P and nothing else then you will start going through the Dark Night, and then Equanimity, and then Stream Entry.

the only confusion is whether you may have gotten stream entry somehow in that short sit you just posted. the hellish experience of intense vibration does sound like A&P, but maybe it was a high-powered Dark Night. and the bubble of tranquility does sound like it could be Equanimity. then when you say 'eventually that became the norm' and talk about instant concentration (within 15 seconds) and permanent shifts, then that sounds like Stream Entry.

so read up more stuff on MCTB, in particular the link i sent, and you can evaluate for yourself. or you can sit down to meditate, see what happens, and report that, and based on that info we can go from there. by seeing what happens we mite figure out where you are.
john doe, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: No idea need help

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Thanks all. I'll read up on that!
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago.

RE: No idea need help

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
Sounds like stream-entry to me, but at the same time it could have been an intense A&P. Either way, it's not possible to make an accurate diagnosis based on what you've provided for the simple reason that we all use different language to describe our experience of these things. The limitations of language is a pain in the arse as the words we use to describe this stuff is nothing like the experience itself, but there are certain similarities which become evident with practice. A real-time practice thread would show what's happening in your meditations which is a much better indicator of where you are than a speculative story written after the fact. I know. I did it myself. Check some of my threads and you'll get a laugh.

When I sit right now my mind seems to go into a strong state of concentration, almost jhana-like, on its own within about 15 seconds.

Sounds like you've got stream-entry, although this also depends on what sort of concentration skills you have naturally, or have gained through other meditative practices in the past. Entering an altered state within a few seconds is meant to be attainable by someone at 1st path so that sounds pretty positive to me.

The only way to prove this once and for all is to sit down, meditate and get a fruition. Until you can get a fruition and be absolutely sure, that whole "THAT was it!!" feeling followed by a lovely bliss wave. Start a practice thread, you'll see how beneficial this can be when others who've walked this Path before you and can point out these landmarks. This was how I got confirmation of stream-entry as I was getting regular fruitions in daily life and during the, admittedly scant, meditating I was doing at that time.

I'll be honest with you my meditation sucks. I don't do it nearly often enough. No schedule, no planning, just when I feel like it.

Sounds like me before I got serious about this.

This may be a great hindrance where it comes to progress

Yes. It will. Stop being a lazy bastard. emoticon

but I haven't been trying to experience certain things

So what have you been doing? What are you aiming for?

I'm unclear on this stuff, so any and all help at interpreting these experiences is very appreciated.

Listen, I was EXACTLY the same, and I'm still learning, but one of the best ways to learn what's being discussed on here is to get yourself into a meditation routine and examine what's happening by noting sensation as it appears. I didn't get stream-entry through vipassana or any sort of Buddhist techniques, I was a magician (magick, not card tricks...Ha!) with no interest in Buddhism at all, but that changed after stream-entry so I came to this site knowing Jack Shit about this stuff. Now I'm confident enough to be able to give honest advice to people like yourself who are unfamiliar with the basic terminology, but I'm no expert so what I say is just opinion and is subject to correction at any point.

The reason I couldn't give you any "diagnosis" based on what you said is that it's impossible to do so accurately. I could blow smoke up your arse and say I think you're the Buddha but what use would that be to either of us?

Get reading MCTB and ask questions, get into a practice routine and tell us what's happening for you 'cause you'll find that this forum is extremely helpful for learning. Just be with what's going on and don't get too caught up on where you think you might be right now, you'll see soon enough and it's worth the wait for when it all clicks into place.

Metta,
Tommy