I don't think humanity needed a website on how to become actually-free. Humanity needed someone who could demonstrate a way to get back to feeling good at will. If anyone had discovered a way to feel good at will then by now we would already have had millions of actually-free people. Armed with the knowledge of how to feel good at will, tens of millions would have tried the experiment of feeling happy all the time and of those, millions would have challenged old beliefs that justified occasionally not even trying to feel happy.

The reason Richard would be the first is that nobody knows any way to consistently get back to feeling good at will. So it's interesting that Richard dedicates so little time to explaining how to 'get back to feeling good'. Pages and pages on challenging spiritual beliefs, to cement long-term changes once you can already feel good at will... but a few vague sentences on seeing a trigger from hours ago as silly and then "one is once more feeling good".



http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/sundry/commonobjections/CRO30a.htm#11

Does anyone here have the memory power to remember every thought and feeling you had over the past day?

If I last felt good yesterday, when some trigger stopped that, why would seeing the silliness of that day-old trigger have any impact on my current bad feeling? Does anyone here have a mind so simple that once you're not feeling good you have the exact same feeling for the exact same reason a day later?

I last felt felicitous over a week ago, if I trace back to what happened a week ago to end that felicity, should I then (tadaaa) be back to feeling good?

hah i really like this summary of the actualist method, actually. it really is that simple - feel good at all times, then feel happy and harmless at all times, then feel perfect at all times, etc., keep up-leveling it.


i think you have identified a causal relationship, here. the idea is to feel good and stay that way. how does one accomplish that? the HAIETMOBA technique.

that is too simple, though. people insist on asking - what about this belief? that belief? this thing? that thing? so all those topics are covered in extensive detail on all the pages, but really the purpose is simply to get back to feeling good. if you can do that you don't need anything else.

i don't think that's necessary, though being more and more attentive to your thoughts and feelings is, and doing that will probably help with remembering then.

i have trouble with this, too. i think it's probably because, after stopping to feel good yesterday, a whole bunch of other stuff came and made the mood worse/perpetuated the mood, so by now it's actually many different triggers. so seeing the silliness of one particular one might not help, though it might release some mental stress (if it was still causing the stress) and get you to feeling a little better, which might allow you to start looking at other stuff that is going on.

that's why it's important to have HAIETMOBA as a constantly-running question, though. the quicker you notice you're not feeling good, the easier it is to get back to feeling good.

have you noticed you usually don't feel good for the same reasons, and they keep repeating over and over and cycling? it is pretty repetitive.

if you haven't seen the silliness of not feeling good cause of X yesterday, then when you think about X today it will likely have a similar reaction. but if you did.. then it won't bother you anymore. and if that's the only thing currently bothering you.. you will then be feeling good. and if you're not feeling good still, there's more stuff to look at.

and if just realizing the silliness of X doesn't make X go away, then you haven't really seen the silliness of it and you have to dig deeper.

probably not cause there might be a lot of stuff bugging you. it might be good to just look at what is immediately bugging you and see the silliness of that immediate thing. then look at the next immediate thing..

or if it's not working then just start over, find a reason to feel good, or wait until your mood randomly fluctuates to a good one, then go from there. and next time be more assiduous so it doesn't take a week to notice/do something about it.

It's as simple as the method to become a multi-billionaire: simply acquire a million each moment again. Easy, no? And people wonder what all the fuss is about.



Well since that can always be an excuse for why this revolutionary method doesn't work, and since 'not really seeing the silliness' or the other excuse 'not really being sincere' will inevitably be fundamental problems all humans will have with the method... the method is useless without an explanation of:

What is the method to really see the silliness of the bad-feeling triggers?
What is the method to really be sincere?

Hi Nad, I don't think it's so much a method, it's more of an intention. If you're committed to enjoying this moment as much as you can then you enjoy it more and more - like learning a skill. How simply happy and well can you be right now? What does enjoyment and happiness look like for you?

true, but acquiring a million dollars depends on tons of external factors which are out of your control. however, the way 'you' feel is entirely under 'your' control, ultimately (though it doesn't seem that way at first).


'not really being sincere' is the same as 'not really seeing the silliness' so it's good you see the connection there. it's not an excuse so much as the actual reason it isn't working. granted that won't get us anywhere, so lemme try to address your questions...


to be perfectly honest with yourself. e.g., you did a good job at work today and you go to show your boss. your boss says "that's pretty stupid and a poor effort." you feel bad. you have a mental dialog:

"why do i feel bad? cause my boss didn't like my project. is that silly or sensible? that's silly! why should someone else's opinion of me matter? there's no reason for it. i just work here and he oversees me. if he didn't like my work, that's fine. i'll just do it differently tomorrow. but theres no reason to get hung up over it." then the feeling doesn't change at all. "this is silly!" it doesn't move. you decide to ignore it. yet throughout the day you have that feeling of hurt, and you keep going over the scene w/ your boss in your head.

that isn't being sincere. sure those are valid reasons for why not to be silly, yet the fact is, you still care about you boss's opinion of you, and telling yourself that you don't will do nothing to change it. so you dig deeper

"why do i feel bad? cause the boss didn't like my project. why would that make me feel bad? it seems that i care about his opinion of me." that's being more sincere already - you're admitting that you actually care about the opinion. denying that will get you nowhere. "ok, why do i care about his opinion? i want him to think well of me, but why?" this is a made-up person so i'll just keep making it up "ah it seems in general i want people to think well of me. when did that start? I feel so rewarded and awesome when people say i've done a good job.. and especially when my dad says it.. hmm my dad doesn't approve of me much does he...." SNAP "o my god! ive been seeking my father's approval this entire time!!! it all makes sense now!" and the feeling evaporates. actually the feeling evaporates with the SNAP and the rationalizing comes afterwards. you'll know when you hit upon the actual reason. keep digging 'till you do.

some stuff is really hard to let go of, like something like in this example would be. but other stuff you can just see that is silly without much digging. if you actually think something is silly, you simply won't do it, cause why would you? can you think of a situation when people thought you should have been angry or sad but you simply weren't cause you didn't see the point?



mm that, basically. actually finding the cause. digging around until it fades.

Here is my challenge with this that I cannot seem to get around so perhaps you can help as it's a restatement of what Nad is asking.

What do you do when you realize you are down (or even "normal"), you ask yourself HAIETMOBA and you realize the last time you felt well was when you were engaging in ego-reinforcing happiness? I'll give you two examples of this from the last two days and I can't seem to escape the obviousness (read, the unavoidable cause and effect relationship) of this issue.

Wasn’t' feeling well two days ago, asked HAIETMOBA, realized the last time I felt great was after a run and listening to some music that evokes strong emotion. What's the answer, go for another run and listen to affective music?
Wasn’t' feeling well yesterday, asked HAIETMOBA, realized the last time I felt great was late the prior night after reflecting on how grateful I was to have certain things and conditions in my life. Then I read the next morning on the AF site that gratitude is ego-reinforcing happiness. What do I do? Try and ignore that fact and enjoy gratitude anyway? It’s like trying to close Pandora’s box. Once you agree it’s ego reinforcing and you want to get rid of ego it seems harder to enjoy these things so I'm not allowing myself to indulge in imagination or thoughts related to pride, desire, hope, grattidue etc. that once brought me up.

I keep finding this over and over. It's consciously not proactively indulging in bad or ego reinforcing happiness like (love, compassion, hope, desire, pride, gratitude) that seems to be the main factor in my mood being lower than normal. I don't need a ton of instruction on how or why that understanding that fear is unnecessary will improve my mood. What I need is a nudge on understanding of how seeing things as unnecessary that once did bring egoic happiness should contribute to my mood getting better now, while I still have an ego? In times like these the answer of "felicity" is just a word. How does on cultivate a "sense of well being" when they percieve a sense of loss from things they used to do that really did improve their mood before practicing acutalism?

P.S - I said in another post I'm going to a 10 day Goenka retreat in July to try and improve my concentration/insight skills in an attempt to help this make more sense or to be able to get in touch with felicity better. I haven't given up, but I've been stuck on this for weeks now and I feel I must be applying this incorrectly as this seems like an obvious snag that almost everyone should have but not many people are talking about, hence I must be doing something wrong...

Thanks.

Hmm it's an interesting issue. The thing that currently comes to mind is:



First, I notice a contradiction. you say "it seems harder to enjoy these things", yet then you go into how you must make a conscious effort not to. Why make the conscious effort if it would be effortless to not enjoy them?

Second, I think the bolded points might reflect the main issue. you hear people saying how it's bad to indulge in ego-reinforcing happiness, so then when you do notice it you feel bad that you are and consciously stop it. that isn't seeing the silliness of it, though, and that's not autonomous reasoning - that's closer to believing what others say and trying to match up to it even though 'you' (or a part of 'you') feel like 'you' shouldn't ("...perceive a sense of loss from things they used to do that really did improve their mood...").

i actually don't have much experience here.. i haven't noticed myself feeling very many 'good' emotions that i had to dismantle. that's kinda weird.. i'll have to look into why.

actually what helped me do it, though i can't remember the specifics, is to take the 'good' one and see what might happen to turn it into a bad one. for example, if you feel grateful for all the things you have, imagine if they were taken away from you, one by one. how would that make you feel? if you feel love for someone, imagine what would happen if they say they don't love you, or if they were to die.. how would that make you feel? that might help to see the nature of the 'good' emotion more thoroughly, and seeing its nature, perhaps seeing the silliness of it.


because seeing it as unnecessary isn't suppression. if you feel love, then you think you shouldn't and suppress it, you'll feel bad for not feeling love. but if you feel love, see through it, and it dissipates... that's it, really. there's no gap, you just.. feel fine!

"felicity" is part of it, i think. i think if you focus solely on eliminating 'good' and 'bad' emotions you will be left in a neutral, indifferent, 'meh' state. so as your affective energy is freed, maybe start paying more attention to your surroundings? really revel in the senses.. listen to some music that you like and focus on the way it sounds, try to hear all the nuances you usually don't, etc. enjoy being just where you are .

---

so don't suppress anything. and hey if things put you in a good mood, like running and listening to music, i'd say do them to get yourself in a better mood, as all this is much easier from a good mood than from a negative or 'meh' one. if you think you are in an ego-reinforcing good mood, then don't stop feeling good, but investigate how it could turn sour if the things it depends on would change. and perhaps then the ego-reinforcing aspect of the mood will drop away and you'll be left with a more felicitous good mood.

lemme kno if any of that helps..

Hi Nad,




What about Tarin's suggestion of doing concentration meditation? I tried it, and it worked well. During a lot of the sits I did, I experienced perfect/clean/pure feelings like being in the present, flawless posture, smooth breathing, etc. Whenever I was not meditating I could have those feelings by thinking of them.

It was interesting to see that even in pretty messed up situations, I could still have/trigger these type of feelings.

Have you tried concentration meditation?

- Bart

So it is claimed. I could claim that those external factors are actually under your control too, although it doesn't seem that way to all non-Nadbillionairists.



Your investigation example comes across as a one-in-a-million eureka moment. It's almost like a cartoon or parody of a feeling-investigation - the elimination of caring about other people's opinions all in one paragraph-worth of dialogue, a childhood/parental issue found, "it all makes sense now". My years of trying to investigate feelings with the actualism method have turned up nothing like that fairy-tale example at all. Years of trying, absolutely zero results from the investigation method. So the 'method' is not always so simple at all. Some people's minds (identities) may be simple or uncluttered and make for an easy task though.

Clearly the real hard work of the method is in the investigation that leads to finding the trigger silly. Now, compare your investigation example and my long experience trying to investigate in order to get back to feeling good with the official actualism method in all its simplicity:



A single solitary sentence is dedicated to the crucial part that humanity has been waiting for.



Feel good all the time by seeing the silliness of the things making you feel bad
How do I see the silliness of the things that make me feel bad?
Investigate them until they seem silly. There, my work is done... you're welcome, world.

So far in this thread, you've not said anything I don't already know about actualism, it's just that in practice it doesn't go so smoothly... but is all you've said from your tried and tested experience - has it all worked reliably for months/years - or is this your theoretical understanding of actualism?

I haven't tried much concentration meditation, no. Whenever I do try it I fail miserably - I fail to keep my mind concentrated or still or empty or whichever the particular method advises. Do you have any sources for good methods to try?

And can I ask how you fared overall with Richard's official actualism method?

Nad,

(1) How do you investigate feelings exactly? What are the steps you take? Specifically: Where does your focus go? Do you focus on your body? Is it a more mental-speech kind of thing? I suspect you are doing the latter.

While it might seem, by the way Richard explains "silly vs. sensible" that the investigation is conceptual, it really is not. For most of us engaged in actualism can already conceptually see that emotions are silly, or at least certainly second-rate when compared to the alternative (PCE). But the feeling process itself must transform. So it isn't a matter of thinking about it --- when the emotional aspect is fully seen for what it is, and is disentangled, only then will it seem like "phew! I was doing that crazy thing because of THAT?!"

One works with feelings, not against them. One should find, in the body, the passion that is inciting one to "feel bad;" examples from the AFT glossary are Aggression,Compassion, Conflict, Denial, Desire, Doubt, Fear (of death, of authority), Female and Male Conditioning, Guilt, Hope, Humility, Intuition, Insecurity, Love, Malice, The Need to Belong, Nurture, Pride, Sorrow, and Trust. For this it helps to recall the episode that caused one to feel bad in the first place.

When this passion is found, one works directly with the passion, by focusing on the location in the body that is exuding the passionate feeling, and understanding how it triggers the higher-level behavior (e.g. I feel resentment for being here and that's actually what is preventing me from enjoying this walk in the park) --- for this to be understood memory of how it was triggered in the first place is also helpful.

One proceeds like this, finding there are several many layers of shit all piled on each other, the lowermost supporting the uppermost. But one must usually remove the topmost layer of shit in order to see what is beneath it. It is this removal which feels like an eureka moment, a convolution, which then provides relief (only temporary, for very soon the layer beneath comes into view).

Having said that, even if one can't remember the precise event that triggered a fresh round of suffering, the suffering is still there, and it is also fruitful to investigate it for what it is, to look at it in the eye, even when the story is lost. At least this has given me the ability to confront even the most pernicious feelings without being overwhelmed --- so that nowadays I have no hesitation whatsoever to investigate no matter what.

(2) Get the book "Focusing" by Eugene Gendlin (ebook link). There is some interesting information and an interesting method on how to investigate feelings. The main point of this book which I wish to convey is: focus on the body.

To repeat: mental speech ("this is silly" for instance) has to come as a result of what is felt in the body, not the other way around.

perhaps you need some experiential understanding of 'i' am 'my' feelings and 'my' feelings are 'me'. next time you're feeling an emotion and it's "somewhere over there" (like oh a general thing in my stomach, or oh i generally feel a bit off but i'm not sure why), try bringing it to "here". try feeling the emotion fully. just don't repress or suppress it (or enhance it unnecessarily) but remove the brakes from it. admit to yourself that you are feeling that emotion right now, and just let it flow. when i do this (repeating 'i' am 'my' feelings and 'my' feelings are 'me' helps me to do it though it might not for you, yet), the emotion kind of fills my whole body. it's like i'm owning up to it. once it's there i'm in a much better position to investigate it as i'm not busy denying/suppressing it at the same time.

yea i realize it was so stereotypical as to be a parody. yet those eureka moments do happen in that fashion, and the feeling really does evaporate that quickly once it is seen for what it is - and i say that from experience. by the way, said imaginary person would probably still care about other people's opinions a lot - the investigation would probably just stop a certain category of other people's opinions mattering, perhaps from only a few people.



i am projecting here, but the way you phrased the sentence "Investigate them until they seem silly." and the context you put it in shows that you simply don't believe that something like this would work.

"Investigate them until they seem silly." sounds like a job you have to do. the words "until they seem silly" indicates that you don't really see this as an honest process, but more like: "Oh, I have a feeling. i guess i'll phrase random trains of thought until i might chance upon one thought which will then magically 'click' and make it go away. yayyy."

the point isn't to think about them until they "seem silly". they already seem silly, as in "i'd rather not be feeling this". really all you have to do is figure out exactly why it is that you are feeling the way you do. it's just a process of transparently seeing exactly why your self is operating the way it is in a particular instance. once you fully understand the cause and effect - not only conceptually but full comprehension - then that particular entire feeling-chain generally just stops. you don't even have to try to strain to see it as silly.. it's usually self-evident (to the point where the thing might stop, then you might want to reason about it and see why exactly you stopped since it might not even be brought up to the 'conscious thought' level.

i didn't realize you had practiced this method for years. if that's the case and you've never succeeded in figuring out any part of yourself then it's good you asked this question as there is definitely something to look for here.

why don't we take a personal example that you are currently dealing with? What is a feeling that is currently bothering you that you want to investigate? why do you think you are feeling it? write down your thoughts + investigation process about it and maybe we can help you ask the right questions about it.

---

a recent example from my personal experience (to show you that it works): i was always kinda skittish about alcohol+drugs. i thought them as 'bad'. even though i liked doing them and i enjoyed it i was always nervous about it. i also noticed my friends opinions about it had a lot of effect on me.. but even if they were approving of it or encouraging it, i still felt really nervous at like 'doing the wrong thing' in front of them. why did that keep bothering me? i remembered then that i even was encouraging this, as i went to one of them like "make sure i dont do anythin stupid alright? if i'm doing too much or whatever, take care of me." why did i rely so much on others to watch over said drug use? it's like i had completely externalized that control mechanism... then i remembered how when i was younger i was completely against cigarette smoking and actively tried to get people to stop / put out other people's cigarettes when i saw them smoking. that seemed to have died down.. but where was that from? then i remembered my mom telling me when i was very young, stuff like smoking is bad.. and how she told me never to do any drug like weed or anything. and well - then it vanished! that was it. there was an authority figure in my head - my 'mom', initially - who i relied on for guidance on what to do with regards to drugs. and later it morphed from an image of 'my mom' to images of several 'friends'. and that's why it all bothered me so much... and since then i've hardly thought about it

Got it! (I think)
1) I am associating pleasure\happiness with a lack of effort (long story). Sort of the no pain, no gain philosophy that is expressly noted on the AF site as not the correct method of practice and is leading reject happiness in some subtle ways.
2) What I’ve been doing is suppressing or denying ego-happiness (denial) and taking this as though I considered it unnecessary and when my mood dropped I used that as proof it is necessary. But I haven’t really delved into them deeply enough and so I’ve been practicing denial or abstinence, which has been creating a sense of loss, which has lead to a down mood, which has lead me to believing they are required to be happy. Good grief.
3) In addition I don’t think I’m going to try and penetrate ego-reinforcing happiness in the way you mention. Not because it won’t work, but because the reason I consider them necessary is not because I don’t see the down side of them or think that they are somehow noble or true, but that they ward off pain and neutral feelings. So as long as I feel I need “mood enhancements” I’ll never let them go no matter how silly I might think they are.
4) Proving that I really need to tackle the bad feelings first, and go further. As I stated I will probably always be hesitant to REALLY let go off ego-reinforcing good feelings as they are the perceived to be the antidote to feeling bad or even neutral feelings. I suspect there are more bad feelings that are bringing me down which need to be penetrated weakening the need I will feel for keeping any ego-reinforcing happiness.
5) In parallel I need to work on unraveling my social sense of self. Who I believe myself to be and all my associated “needs” including those beliefs that would seem to require avoiding bad emotions or getting good ones. The belief is driving the need for feeling. Trying to cut off the feeling without eliminating the belief is suffering.
6) The powerful combination of a weakened social sense of self, and one that truly sees the beliefs that reinforce or allow bad feelings to stick as unnecessary, will create a sense of felicity and that will help me to not feel a sense of loss giving up ego reinforcing happiness and in fact these will be clearly seen as an obstacle to my goal and be naturally, happily released.

I don’t know why I didn’t see it this way before. To close to it I guess. It becomes hard to take a step back.
I suppose the same thing can be said for “bad” feelings. If you really see a need from them, you’ll never really release them no matter how much investigation is done as they are a part of you and you don’t really want to exit the stage...Said another way, something can only be seen as "silly" if it has no meaning to you. If it doesn't seem "silly" it has meaning or value that you probbably haven't indentified yet.
I’ve got work to do, thanks!

Overall, not very good, but looking up.

It wasn't until August last year that there was a turn-around, where the answer would consistently be "well actually, not that bad". Before that, asking the question would make me miserable. My approach changed in that I started to ask myself the question literally, long and drawn-out, word-by-word. That was something I picked up from the audio tape conversation between Tarin and Daniel.

In the early parts of the concentration mediation period starting in December, I didn't ask haietmoba, as it made me feel bad or at least didn't have the same effect as just remembering the meditation sits. Though eventually I got haietmoba up to the point where asking myself the question would make me feel good. In the course I followed Trent's suggestion of reading over and over Richard's article of 'this moment of being alive'.

I haven't asked myself the question as much for awhile now, and physically have not been feeling very well. I stopped meditating in februari or so and have spent considerably more time playing computergames and watching porn than I have in a long time. I thought I could get away with it, but it has backfired.


.

What method have you used to make your mind still? The advice I initially followed was to breathe in and out smoothly, like the in and out breath weren't seperated. Quickly the thing just took its own course and when I read more I saw my practice had naturally already incorporated much of the other advice/methods/techniques given on this forum.

Now when I do a session, I don't focus on my breath as I used to do in the beginning. I quickly, if not instantly, slip into an overal body feel and remain there, because it's pleasant and allows the mind to calm down.

Might you try another session I suggest you do some physical excercise before you sit. I think an aerobic workout would certainly brute force you into a general entire body awareness and give you an inkling of what I'm talking about.

But whether you are experiencing a general entire body awareness or not, you should be experiencing some pleasant sensation, which can be coming from the breath, the spine, the legs - anywhere really.



:Resources are plentiful here. Most of what Tarin wrote resonates with me.Then there also is the sticky thread by Ian And called "A General, All Purpose Jhana Thread". I would suggest you print out that thread, it's not actually that much text as it might seem. The basical principal explained there is: use your breath to get pleasant sensations going, that will quiet the mind.

You're right to suspect that because I've never felt an emotion in my body before. In my body I feel only sensations... except behind my eyes where I feel I am. I will read the focusing book and get back to you on it.

Done all that. I get to the point that it seems very likely that 'I' am 'my feelings'. There's no clear experiential proof though. Still, I don't see how seeing that 'I' am 'my feelings' makes it easier to control feelings. If you want me to rephrase the problem, I will: people do not yet have any way of choosing how they are being at will. Until someone comes along and makes a website about how to reliably and consistently get back to 'being happiness' any time you want (which they might win the Nobel prize for, among other awards), then the problem remains.



How much experience? Have you had these kinds of successes for months/years?



No, what I'm saying is that 'investigating them until they seem silly' is not easy, just like "make a million each moment again" is not an easy step in the simple "become a billionaire" method. We would rightly say that someone proposing the "become a billionaire" method has not, in fact, given a useful method because one of the steps needs its own voluminous book.

Psychology books tend to be very voluminous indeed, and they still don't have the cures.



I may do that in another thread soon. I've done that a few times before on the other actualism forums over the years and we don't get anywhere.

Focusing on breathing is what I remember trying, bringing my attention back to the breath when my mind wanders. Thoughts interrupt constantly and I get frustrated and never had a good reason to try again and again or make it a regular practice. It was frickin boring.


Hmm yes the exercise will get the endorphins going, I'll try that.



I just read a few parts of that and as someone completely new to the meditation jargon and concepts (I'm strictly here for the AF) I'm struggling to extract a method from it. What practical method I can decipher so far is focus on the breath / pleasantness of the breath and use 'STOP' (with intent) to still the mind.

i've only been practicing since January, so definitely not years. the example at the end of my post is one success. what are other ones.. i realized i was subtly ashamed of everything i was doing.. i realized i had a huge fear of rejection which is why i was nervous to people, and i kind of figured out maybe where it came from, though it continued for a bit (the nervousness) but by now it has diminished quite a lot. i dnno i can't really count all the times. it's a gradual process, and as you figure something out it just kind of disappears so i'll probably only remember it if a situation happens where i would have reacted differently normally.

and over the past few months... it definitely seems to me that there is less and less of me as i go on. i no longer see the need to seek company.. people's emotions and reactions are slowly losing their ability to affect me.. the world is brighter and prettier. so i'd say it's working to some degree.

that's true, it's not easy because the self has many guards set up against investigating itself. but it's hard in a different way than, say, passing a tough exam is hard (or making a million is hard).

I don't really find boringness to be much of a hindrance. It just doesn't happen that much. I do often, choose to not meditate, because.. hmm.. it's boring? Though, when I get started, there's no boredom. There can be neurotic thoughts, shallow breathing, pain, posture not feeling right: Things that cause aversion to meditation. I suppose if it's really boredom that you are experiencing, then at least your are not suffering any physical discomfort.

Though I remember reading that meditation is about facing ones boredom. And a quick google search revealed this:




It seems a very gruesome approach to meditation, onet that's not very appealing. If my sit goes well, I will get the feeling I can almost sit like this forever, and theres nothing boring about it. It just feels great. The great thing about concentration meditation, as far as I have travelled, is that there's no need to confront boredom. You just go out of it's way by feeling good (feeling good physically, mostly).




I'm not sure whether the exercise will work for you. It's the only quick-and-dirty thing I can think of. I regularly do yoga and do so to align the vertebrae of my spine. I also did a a year of Alexander Technique training. All of that really helps my posture and breathing. If something doesn't feel right with my posture or breath (which are closely related), it makes the meditation alot harder. That said, oftentimes stuff does feel wrong with my posture, but when some other part feels really good, it marginalizes that what feels wrong so that it interferes less.




It's just important that you take note of the pleasant sensation thing. There are a lot of techniques outthere to get a comfortable feeling while sitting: hara breathing, spinal breathing, little orbit, smiling, but they are hardly or not mentioned in that text.

In regards to you being here strictly for the AF: For me, I suppose it always pretty clear to me (whether wrong or right) that making myself happy would have to include some sort of mental tuning. The typical occasion I could pull off such an effort and have it have some effect was while I was lying in bed. So the step to start meditating wasn't exactly a leap, and it really made a lot of sense to me. I don't see how it cannot be part of a route to AF. That, on the af-website, I keep reading meditation is not the way to go, doesn't change anything about that. I don't the investigation thing is going to work, when I don't have some baseline happiness.

nad,

a few questions for you, if you don't mind ... you may also pm me your responses if you want, or leave out ones you don't want to answer. although, the more you respond with, the more i may be able to say.

where lies your interest in actualism? has it always been the same? why do you persist?

what is your profession? what else do you know a lot about? on what subjects do others seek your council?

what is your general mood like on a day-to-day basis? how strongly do you think you feel your feelings, relative to other people you know well and/or interact with often or relative to yourself at some previous (but relatively different) time in your life?

how social are you with colleagues/associates and/or friends? do you have any specific justifications or philosophies or whatever for that level of engagement? if so, what are those specifics?

trent

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You said earlier you got to the point where asking HAIETMOBA made you happy. Do you mean just the question/attentiveness alone? Or do you mean the whole 'trace-back to the last time... see the silliness and get back to feeling good' method?

Those guards against self-investigation are part of the human condition too, aren't they? So the method would be incomplete without a how-to of dealing with the difficulties of investigating the self. But I can see how if the investigations have been easy for you it can seem like a simple method.

Can you think of a way to explain how one gets from seeing that 'I' am my feelings to being able to more easily control 'my feelings' ('me')? To me it seems like a re-labelling which doesn't change the size of the task at hand.

Nad, I am in a similar position. If Trent's private suggestions help you, please write about it here.

If you do not mind me asking, how old are you?

This example seems rather impersonal. I think for most of us deeply personal issues are the most difficult to investigate. Would you share a more personal example involving a smorgasbord of feelings, people and events? What is your biggest issue right now? How are you approaching it?

Will do.

It's the question thing alone and just forgetting or not caring about all that lies in the past and future. So as I use it, it's more about increasing the here and now, than it is about delving into my programming.

i'm 22. it involved me, my parents, 3 of my best friends, lots of desire, and shame, and nervousness, and denial and aversion and grasping and several events.. and had plagued me for 1.5 years or so.. so what do you mean by it being impersonal? granted the investigation seemed simple, but it took me a while to get to that point (a lot of understanding about 'me', about authority, about mental images and projections, lots of thinking about this stuff), and i was also rolling (oh the irony) and that made it easier to think about. there's a good reason they used to use that for psychotherapy..

EDIT: ah maybe it sounds impersonal because it is recounted in such a matter-of-fact way? i wouldn't have even been able to post it, or would have been incredibly nervous posting about it, if it was still affecting me, but it being mostly in the past now for me it is almost like it happened to another person.. so your labeling of it as 'impersonal' might be pretty accurate, though it was quite personal while i was going through it.

one of my biggest issues currently is my relationship with work. i'm not even sure where to start..

basically i can't seem to work as effectively as 'my boss'(a.k.a 'my mental image of my boss' or 'me' for short) would like. i just get there, spend a good amount of time on the internet and thinking and DhOing and such. it's often just annoying to even start on a new task or start working on it again. the issue is that i'm one of the only employees, so when work doesn't get done, i'm the one that has to stay later and do it.. to the point where now it's the norm to be there 10-11 hrs a day. this really annoys me cause i dont want to be there 10-11 hrs, i want to be there for 8 and then do go "af stuff" or whatever. yet it's my own doing that i'm there for that long - i used to stay less but my boss mentioned the lack of progress. he basically said 'work harder, which may involve more hours, though i realize that's not necessarily the case' (programming). i suspected what would happen is i would end up staying more and getting about same amount of progress.. which is just exactly what happened. but i also don't want to force myself to work hard against my will as that feels like 'giving up' - i just want to want to work more effectively so i can leave earlier and do tai chi or whatever i want.

i feel especially bad as the pay is pretty good and it isn't even that difficult, so who am i to be complaining? i think the pay has something to do with it.. i remember when i was younger saying that happiness was more important than money and that i wouldn't take a job where i work more for more money in exchange for less happiness, yet here i am. recently i realized the pay was a large reason i was working there - being paid is nice - yet also "the money didn't affect me" in that, once being paid, said pay doesn't motivate me to work harder.

so it's kind of annoying and painful and i donno how to resolve the issue yet. any tips would be appreciated. i've tried approaching it by thinking about it, about why i don't want to put full effort.. i traced it back to a fear of failure/fear of going for success, and that seemed to be it, but not much has budged. now i kinda.. do whatever, i guess. eventually i get stuff done. and part of my wasting time at work is reflective contemplation a la actualist method so that works out

they certainly are part of the human condition. i'm not trying to make it sound easier than it is


generally when 'i' try to control 'my feelings', what 'i' really am is a person inside my head, 'the thinker'. my body is 'my' domain. my feelings are things that 'i' feel, whether 'i' like them (like pride and accomplishment) or not (fear and anxiety). 'i' am at their mercy, at the whims of outside events. anyone can come along and say the right thing to me and 'i' will begin feeling emotions. 'i' say to 'my body' - HEY! Stop feeling fear!! feel happiness instead!! - and it just recoils and doesn't budge and feels a bit uneasy at trying to be controlled. that definitely won't work.

however 'i' am that fear and anxiety too. 'i' am not feeling it, though it can seem that way if i dissociate - 'i' am it. it is the very stuff my self is made of. when 'i' am afraid, 'i' am that very fear - it is 'my' reaction to some circumstance, and nobody else's. 'you' don't control 'yourself' so much as choose to be a different way. i can't do this so reliably during daily life, sober, but with my eyes closed while high it is pretty easy to channel feelings. i can just think about a particular one, like anger, and go 'what would it be like to be angry?' and pick some random thing to start ranting about. i think it's something one could develop the knack for doing, but i haven't gotten it down too well except in that particular circumstance. a few times i was able to be naivete. its like my whole body just connected in some awesome way to be carefree and free-flowing and happy with where i am.

for sure, admitting to being the fear causes it to come to the forefront. the reason for its becoming is more apparent and more readily lends itself to investigation. understanding exactly what mental processes cause that fear to come up diminishes it as one realizes ('me' as fear and all) that it is no longer necessary.

Yes I know that, as I said above the question is how.

You said that the way 'I' feel is under 'my' control, you then said I may need experiential understanding of how 'I' am 'my feelings'. So (to rephrase) can you think of a way to explain why, after seeing that 'I' am my feelings, it becomes easier to choose to be a happier being? To me this doesn't affect the problem of how to change to being happy.

It doesn't sound like your feelings are under your control either - practically speaking - except when you're intoxicated. Is that because you're failing to see how 'you' are 'your feelings'?

i think so. not so much the general concept, but particular instances of it (which shows that i don't fully understand the general concept enough to apply it immediately to anything i'm feeling). and a lack of focus&assiduousness in being constantly attentive. but i find, even when sober, over the past hour, if i stopped whatever train of thought that was going on, figured out how i am experiencing this moment of being alive, repeated to myself that 'i' am 'my' feelings and 'my' feelings are 'me', or in particular, like 'i' am this anxiety, 'i' am this discomfort, 'i' am this resistance, the feeling really loses its edge. it stops being so oppressive, as in 'something that is happening to me', and is more like 'ah thats how i am right now'. from there i can start trying to be happy instead. this tends to lift my mood a bit, but then there's some resistance to being happy.. i try smiling and my mood starts lifting but there's some looking back like 'oh this is lame'. so basically i have to work at it more , and i'll post once i figure it out more, but it's true, i definitely need work in this area.


excerpt from above:

so it's the first step, so to speak. i think this is part of what is meant by "sincerity" - admitting to yourself that not only are you feeling it, but that you are it.

that's about where my understanding is at.. i'm not rock solid on it so if anyone sees if i'm going wrong somewhere please let me know

Because you are in your early 20s - a period usually dominated by sex hormones - one such deeply personal issue would be your relationship (or its lack, and the social feelings on top of it) to current/potential/imagined sexual partners and the sphere of modern coupledom.

(I noticed that you wrote "one of my biggest issues" and not, say, "my biggest issue")

ah i don't know what my "biggest" issue is, but as work affects 75% of my waking hours during the week i consider it more pressing than the relationship issues that i'll outline below



a good call, as my initial reaction was a reluctance to share. but it got me to thinking...

first of all: lust, and lots of it.. lots of watching porn, uh, onanising, fantasies with basically every girl i've met for the past however many years.. though no success in actually getting very intimate with one until last May. it's a long distance relationship (that i'm still currently in), though, and the lust and, uh, onanising, didn't stop or abate much until recently. it was quite annoying, being horny randomly.. what is eventually helping me get over it (not being so lusty) is a combination of:

• realizing that the things i'm lusting after are simply mental images which aren't actually real
• noticing that the lust simply abates if i don't satisfy it when it arises and i get distracted or whatever
• just really realizing how painful and narcissistic and self-aggrandizing the entire lusting after, then satiating said lust by yourself by using fantasy and imagination, is.

the latter point i've just kept coming back to and i think finally it's taking effect.

luckily i got into a very nice relationship last May so I haven't felt a lack of affection or a desire to mate with others or anything like that. it is long distance; we see each other about once every 2 weeks. i don't miss her in the meantime.. only after one visit or two, for a few days, did i miss her a bit, a while ago, but by then i was already into the actualist method and i guess i realized it was silly to pursue that feeling and i managed not to (i nipped it in the bud).

relationship-wise, it's pretty great. i think when i'm with her, it takes me out of the context of my normal life, away from friends and work (especially as it's always on the weekends), and that allows me to completely relax and let go and be chill. she is very non-reactive, as am i usually, so we get along famously, with very little drama between us. there are only two issues i can think of..

1 is the sex. it's harder for me to get off than i feel it should be.. so while she seems to enjoy it i feel i could be, more, and i'm not sure why. i think it was related to the lust above - years and years and years of pleasing myself with fantasies has made it difficult to enjoy said pleasures without the fantasies. i think just having a convo w/ her about it, resulting in two parties interested in making it better, would solve the issue, but i haven't brought it up yet. my excuse is i don't see her often, and when i do i don't feel like bringing it up.. so it goes.

2 is 'love'. it's a confusing topic for me. for a while i was really scared, wondering what i'd do if she said 'i love you' - what would i say? do i love her? when i thought about the issue i'd just tense up in fear/anxiety.

at some point (and just now again, though i now realize i had been over this before, though perhaps not spelled out in so much detail), i investigated the issue.. it seems love has been an issue for me for a while, not just recently. one of my friends is very affectionate and he often says he loves his friends, including me, but when he says it to me i'm not sure how to reply. i just dont seem to feel the 'love' that he does.. the same with a few other friends, the same w/ the girlfriend, i suppose - what is 'love'?

then i remembered how for a period when i was younger my mom would say she loved me and i wouldn't reply either with an affirmative or a negative.. i also just didnt know what to say! do i not love my parents? isn't that terrible?

the explanation i came up with was as follows: i was born in another country. when i was 3 my dad left for the US, and when i was 4 my mom left. i don't remember this, but my grandmother told me this story: when my mom left, when i realized somehow i wouldn't be seeing her for a while, i cried and cried, wishing for her to return. my grandmother pointed to a plane and said: 'see that plane? your mother is on that plane. she's going to a far away land.. and all your yelling and screaming won't change that fact.' at this point i understood and immediately stopped crying. she took it as a sign of intelligence so she liked to tell the story. now i think what must have happened is that i loved / was attached to my parents very much as a kid (or at least my mom), but when she left like that and i saw nothing i could do would make her return perhaps i realized such attachment was useless, so i either stopped it or (more likely) repressed it. i say repressed cause it seems hard for a kid to stop attachment like that. and also when i came to the US and was re-united, the first day they had work i cried just as hard for the entire day until they returned. (again i don't remember this; my parents told me that one.) so some attachment must have remained.

but i'm not sure that i'm repressing my love for others as it is. i remember about a week into college (living at the dorms) i was already calling my room 'home'. if i think back to times i had w/ my girlfriend and i try to conjure up the image of 'love', maybe something starts stirring, but i soon realize that i didn't feel that at all when the events happened - i was just more or less fully relaxed and enjoying myself. there must be some affection as i like talking to her and hugging her and showing other signs of affection.. but like i can't apply the label of a sticky clingy feeling called 'love' to it. likewise with my friends.

about the only times i have been sure i've felt love were a few times when intoxicated, e.g. when rolling, though that was more like Love Agape (unconditional, "the world is just a wonderful place" type love), or when drunk, which maybe was more like the traditional one.

so perhaps i really am not so attached.. for sure, though, i felt that i should be, that it was correct to love, hence why i felt bad thinking about it.. especially reading notes from my girlfriend indicating a more attached-type of affection (instead of, say, in-the-moment fooling around), i'd even start crying, not from happiness or love, i now realize, but because i felt i didn't deserve it.. and i believe i felt i didn't deserve it because i felt i didn't feel that love, and i felt i should have, i suppose due to society's values. that seems to have abated, though i'm not sure if it's fully gone.

what will i do if my girlfriend asks me the question? i don't know. realizing that the entire question is simply posed by my self to itself reveals just how twisted the whole scenario is =P. i would probably point to our experiences together and say 'would what i say now change any of that, or change what is happening now, or what will happen?'