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Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice

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Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice Milo 12/19/19 3:06 AM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/19/19 5:45 AM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/19/19 8:00 PM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice Stephen 12/19/19 12:49 PM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice Lars 12/19/19 12:59 PM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice terry 12/28/19 3:55 PM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice Mista Tibbs 12/28/19 12:17 AM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/28/19 2:54 AM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice Anton 12/29/19 12:20 AM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice Mista Tibbs 12/29/19 5:03 PM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice terry 12/30/19 1:37 PM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice Mista Tibbs 12/30/19 10:34 PM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice terry 12/31/19 1:30 PM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice Mista Tibbs 12/31/19 7:30 PM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice terry 1/2/20 6:45 PM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice Mista Tibbs 1/3/20 12:55 AM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice Milo 1/3/20 1:40 AM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice terry 1/4/20 4:57 PM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice Mista Tibbs 1/6/20 7:21 PM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice terry 1/6/20 8:21 PM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice terry 1/2/20 6:32 PM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice terry 12/31/19 1:34 PM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice T 1/2/20 7:26 AM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice terry 1/2/20 6:37 PM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice T 1/3/20 9:24 AM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice terry 1/5/20 12:37 AM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice terry 12/28/19 3:52 PM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice terry 12/28/19 9:14 PM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice Milo 1/3/20 1:47 AM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice terry 1/4/20 5:35 PM
RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice Milo 1/6/20 2:27 PM
There has been some interest in this topic on and off, along the lines of how has your meditation practice changed your day to day experience, baseline emotional level, experience of sex, etc.

One thing I've noticed is that my ability to self judge alcohol (And caffein) intoxication level has noticably decreased, which has sort of backdoored me into observing that precept more often for completely different reasons than I expected. Am I the only one or is this something others have noted?

Sidenote: this feels like rich territory for Daniel's request to translate MCTB into medical thinking if there are measurable changes in autonomic nervous system sensitivity behind things like this and they can be quantified (Though 'I meditated and now can't handle my booze' might need some work to get there haha)

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
12/19/19 5:45 AM as a reply to Milo.
Right after my assumed stream entry, my usual tells for the ADHD medication starting to leave the system were no longer there because some of my ADHD-related symptoms were less obvious. I'm not sure whether that was a temporary thing or if I learned to recognize a more subtle levels of the tells. Regardless, there was a period when this was somewhat problematic because it made me forget to take my medicines in time, and the ADHD was of course still there, which became more obvious when the medicines lost their effect entirely. 

As for alcohole, I recently noticed that some aspects of clarity initially lingered in a way I'm not used to from before (whereas other aspects were just as affected as before), but afterwards clarity was lost for several days and it took a lot of work to get it back (I basically had to walk barefoot in the snow and wade in a winter lake and other stuff to reconnect to the elements). It's not worth it. I didn't drink more than before. I just noticed the effects on the "connection to the source" afterwards in a way that I haven't before, and that made it very clear to me that the precept isn't just about moral. I used to really appreciate a good wine (I could tolerate some white wines in spite of my histamine intolerance), but I appreciate meditation more so I hope I can stay away from sabotaging it. 

I haven't been able to tolerate caffeine at all for many years, so I can't answer about that. It makes sense, though. Both coffee and tea are fermented beverages too. In one version of precepts I came across recently, they stated specifically that one should avoid "fermented beverages", not just alcohole. No coffee, tea or kombucha either then. My food intolerances include basically everything that is fermented, so to me it makes a lot of sense. One of my most common symptoms is severe brain fog. My guess is that fermented foods and beverages have similar effects on most people, only in a much more subtle way. Most people do not turn into zombies like I pretty much do. 

In your case, do you know that you were drinking more than normally or could it be that you noticed the lingering effects on your mind clearer than you would have done before?

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
12/19/19 12:49 PM as a reply to Milo.
I'm really curious about this topic as well. I've had some digestive issues and dietary sensitivities arise in the past few years coinciding with a period of intense practice. I suspect SIBO but haven't been tested. Anecdotally I've heard of increased reports of digestive issues in long-term practitioners and am wondering if other people in this community have experienced anythign along these lines.  

Sensitivity to fermented foods is definitely something I've noticed. Probiotics, kombucha, sauerkraut are problematic to varying degrees. I've also noticed much greater sensitivity to alcohol in recent years so I generally avoid it except for special occasions. I experience significant amount of brain fog if I don't adhere to a restricted diet and restricted alcohol consumption. I still drink coffee and tolerate it but am more sensitive to it these days.

I also have chronic lyme disease so I've attirbuted my stomach problems to that mostly, but I'm curious about the link with meditation and autonomic nervous system modulation.

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
12/19/19 12:59 PM as a reply to Milo.
Milo:

Sidenote: this feels like rich territory for Daniel's request to translate MCTB into medical thinking if there are measurable changes in autonomic nervous system sensitivity behind things like this and they can be quantified (Though 'I meditated and now can't handle my booze' might need some work to get there haha)

One thing i've noticed (and a few girlfriends over the years confirmed) is that I can no longer be tickled. I feel the usual physical sensations and aversive mental response, but i'm able to just ignore them and not respond physically or with giggling/laughing. It's supposed to be an autonomic response, but apparently it can rise to the level of conscious response. It's just about the most useless "siddhi" ever lol, but it's something that could be tested for in a medical setting. I'm curious if this is common, both in meditators and non-meditators.

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
12/19/19 8:00 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:


As for alcohole, I recently noticed that some aspects of clarity initially lingered in a way I'm not used to from before (whereas other aspects were just as affected as before)


I think what I noticed was basically what Spatial talked about in the thread about navigating from equanimity to stream entry:
... and is the mind that is aware of being confused a confused mind, or is it a clear knowing mind that is aware of confusion?
And the clear knowing mind was aware of a little bit more than just the confusion, stuff that the confused mind shouldn't be aware of. It was actually a pretty weird experience. 

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
12/28/19 12:17 AM as a reply to Milo.
Milo:
how has your meditation practice changed your day to day experience, baseline emotional level, experience of sex, etc.

One thing I've noticed is that my ability to self judge alcohol (And caffein) intoxication level has noticably decreased. Am I the only one or is this something others have noted?

Sidenote: this feels like rich territory for Daniel's request to translate MCTB into medical thinking if there are measurable changes in autonomic nervous system sensitivity behind things like this and they can be quantified 

I'd like to try and give my sense of this experience. I didn't discover meditation at some later point though, I have always done so. When I see the word "meditation" and the word "life", I understand the separation as defined, but truthfully there is no divide. I see the human as the only animal in conflict with the natural order of this world and because of this, we lose a deeper connection with ourselves at a biological level and beyond. I don't believe this as a direct consequence of our intelligence as if we must sacrifice this connection for our cogitative faculties. A life absent of meditation only sounds more unnatural and bizarre... emoticon Too much has happened with this one that can be said, but the main point is that I've always followed mental and physical disciplines. You can call me a devoted ascetic but I wouldn't call myself any particular thing (1) Labels are fun but they carry little importance (2) these are not fancy training rules, I believe it is a more appropriate and less complicated way to live. Two years ago I started participating in my own sort of retreats, where I partake in clubs, parties, over-indulging nonsense, avoid meditation, put my books away, and basically try to live with the modern mental and physical diet (that is subjective because I haven't been around the world and met every person). The effects without a unitive inner discipline become apparent almost immediately. There are so many ways to be... whatever state we dwell in the most, that state becomes known as base. The mind follows whatever framework you provide for it.

These camps begin with a change in breathing & behavior. I allow my behavior to laze and rather than going on with the normal hikes and jogs, I might just spend the afternoons watching combat sports or cooking shows. I might even call in for pizza and attempt to breathe in the whole pie emoticon seducing the dragon that is my attention out of its lair. I can very clearly perceive my vibrancy diminish. I do not know what the standard is set to, but at some point, I can no longer "feel" this energetic force. I've concluded with myself that not being able to perceive it is probably what the "average" person is about.
I usually take long drawn out inhalations. At the start of these excursions, they are very subtle and feel very natural without strain, but as I sink deeper they become sigh-like. This descent starts to show within hours, and the full comedown can take a few days. I notice that my body "wants" to keep up with these extended breaths, but I become chiefly unable to. Breathing is reduced to unconscious patterns.

Normally, the center of gravity can be shifted with ease to any point in the body (provided I have the necessary understanding of the desired area). If I do not maintain my yogic practice, then my center point is continuously allocated to the entire body and in addition, the body itself feels much heavier. When I work out, "normally", I can flex every centimeter of muscle, but during these "sober" episodes, that is something I must warm up to with various static exercises and even then, control hits a ceiling effect. At home, I have a set of dumbells and I make easy work of the 20 pounders but during my first meditative hiatus, they became deceptive...
The 20-pound weights actually felt like.... "20" pounds! (that must sound strange)
In relation to both of these phenomena, I typically feel very light and sort of weightless.
It was one of the most enlightening experiences of my life. These gaps spill over with insights into the nature of my practice. Having been involved with athletics all my life, I have a developed awareness of my body.
The most extreme example is during infections. I can get sick obviously but I never remain so for very long. A disease cannot survive in a healthy body long enough to propagate itself into an illness. If I catch anything, it fizzles out within a matter of hours. Receptibility to life is generally pretty high endowing me with an acute sensitivity, while on lengthy breaks I seem to not have this access. During my "retreats", if I get sick, I stay sick until my bodily defenses take care of it which can mean a week or more. Those around me are astonished at my "unique ability" to not get sick... in my view, I am utterly SHOCKED at how people mistreat their bodies and cripple their health with shite food and poor exercise emoticon

During the normal radiant sate, I can feel the chemistry responding to substances almost immediately. The increase is perceived shortly after ingestion. This doesn't make them any stronger or any less potent, I am just profoundly aware of changes in my physiology. If I drink on respite, the rise isn't felt until it is already too jangly to ignore. My experience contrasts yours, whether I meditate or not, I rarely drink coffee or alcohol. I am not opposed to drugs, and yes coffee is a drug. I have no qualms with intoxicants, it is just that I believe the greatest chemical factory is already built right into us and so there is no need to seek externally. Convenience is fine because... it's convenient. For example, to reproduce a marijuana type of high might take me anywhere from 30 minutes - 2 hours whereas a psilocybin high may take me 4 hours. I've met folk more proficient at this. Lighting a blunt takes half a second, but then again you don't have to work for those chemicals.
If I meditate, I find no cravings. That is a lie almost... coming out of meditation does create one kind of craving, the craving for life and to be alive! Anything and everything is just GREAT. I can sit and do nothing and its amazing.
If I do not meditate then cravings for nonsense do arise. I feel some kind of emptiness that needs to be filled by doing something. On the one hand, maybe i'm addicted to meditation, but then again I can stop meditating for months and still not indulge any cravings at all, my mind does not control me, I control my mind so to speak but its more of a spectrum. On the other hand, I believe within us is a yearning for infinity, no matter what we will always look for the next "high" of life and this keeps us from being satisfied in our current situations. This can be seen in any walk of life. 
The ability to "observe" cravings arising remains whether I meditate or not. It's probably a psychological honed skill that can be established.

The day to day experience... ordinarily, days feel like hours and hours feel like minutes... Time passes so quickly... I say that, but I am fully engaged in every second of my life because every moment is precious. We are where we are because of our ability to adapt of course... I cycle through a handful of hobbies and I'm constantly finding new interests. I have a reservoir of vital energy so even at the end of the day I won't feel tired, and I may only sleep for 2 hours minimum. I am always doing something to keep me occupied, only when this is a reality can "doing nothing" become something to do.
During abstention, time is more carried out. Like the weights, hours become proper hours. It is a drastic alteration. Without meditation, I feel hints of lethargy. What was nonstop fun suddenly becomes an array of options of things to do. This is not a lack of motivation.
Meditation doesn't cause me to become ecstatic... I am audaciously positive at base and more so after meditation.
There are certain times in the day/night that are better for meditation depending on a multitude of factors. Your location on the planet, the current tilt of the planet from its rotation, the location of the moon and other bodies in space, etc. On receptibility, my body can pick up on these easier the deeper I am in my practice and less the more I abstain from it. 

Emotionally, I think what this community calls high equanimity fits my sober base. Emotions are not personalities; emotions can not be faked. "Happiness" is the feeling of contentment upon reaching a desired outcome. "Joy" is the actual experience of bliss. As far as I'm concerned, every second I'm not dead is job well done emoticon I have an appreciation for life in every aspect of every moment and that is the cause for my near-infinite joy. Through meditation, I have developed a deeper connection to my emotions. I often shed tears after sad stories, or when I'm extremely exuberant. Crying doesn't just happen, it happens because I want it to. Similarly, if I want to be angry, well, emotions are just a type of energy, anger can be channeled into strength for positive results. There is nothing wrong with emotions. Letting emotions drive you and control you, corrupt you, there is a problem with that. Sometimes ill go over memories and experience them again, I love to feel! It makes me passionate about life and about love. These experiences are only available in our beautiful form and I love that! If I was just a mountain I wouldnt have access to these emotions anymore emoticon
External situations in this life are unpredictable and anything can happen to you at any moment, but how you handle yourself and conduct yourself during such situations comes from within and that is your creation apart from whatever is happening out here.
Pausing meditative practice slightly blands the emotions. The overall experience of life is hampered. Life never stops being wonderful, it's just not as dynamic. Colors seem less vibrant, music not as crispy, senses are not as heightened...

In my opinion, there are two types of sex. Good sex and great sex. Sex is not something to do, it is an act of love, the love makes the difference. I am the type to think inside the box, outside the box, and then as if there is no box... Imagine you and your lover working up the climax and having the greatest orgasm... now imagine that being felt perpetually from beginning to end... It's a different type of ecstasy. I cannot reproduce that if I halt my practice.

Meditation benefits me medically aswell. In my younger days, I was the focal point of a lot of racism and then when I came to America, I became the subject of bullying. I was forced into self-defense so many times. As a consequence, I was left with a few dramatic long term complications. My back was damaged and for years I had to suck it up. It affected my jobs and daily life. As mentioned before, I've been involved with athletics all my life and it helped me to stay limber, but the pain would always resurface. In deep meditation, my body would want to move but I always fought that foolishly thinking that my body just can't sit still. On one particular deep meditation when I was 21, I just let go... It twisted around in a crazy manner, I was prepared for sheer pain but it never came... I was arching my back in ways I didn't know were possible for me anymore. I came out of it stupified. My back wasn't "cured" because there was never anything wrong with it, I just associated certain movements with the injury I endured years ago. It showed me not only a possibility but a capability.
Another injury had to deal with was my jaw. It wasn't lined up properly. I wasn't able to chew with the left side of my mouth or even open my mouth fully without experiencing waves of pain. I gave it some thought before meditating... I attempted to direct blood into my skull muscles. I wasn't able to flex these areas, but if juiced them with enough blood they would naturally swell and this would push the facial bones around allowing them to restructure themselves. After one meditation, my jaw complications were settled...
The back healing was permanent, but the jaw injury was not. Throughout my day, my jaw will slowly fall back into its unnatural placement. I must constantly readjust it but the practice only takes 5 minutes now. Another bonus was a finer jawline that I did not have before.

Meditation, in my opinion, is just returning to a natural order. For most people, they come out of this and go back to their discombobulating ways of living. So there is practice on the cushion and practice off the cushion. Life is just one long meditation. But those are just opinions. There have been so many other profound shifts. I hope this wasn't too messy

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
12/28/19 2:54 AM as a reply to Mista Tibbs.
Wow, that was an amazing read. Now I'm very curious as to what your daily regime looks like, but that is off topic so I just hope to find a practice log or something. 

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
12/28/19 3:52 PM as a reply to Milo.
Milo:
There has been some interest in this topic on and off, along the lines of how has your meditation practice changed your day to day experience, baseline emotional level, experience of sex, etc.

One thing I've noticed is that my ability to self judge alcohol (And caffein) intoxication level has noticably decreased, which has sort of backdoored me into observing that precept more often for completely different reasons than I expected. Am I the only one or is this something others have noted?

Sidenote: this feels like rich territory for Daniel's request to translate MCTB into medical thinking if there are measurable changes in autonomic nervous system sensitivity behind things like this and they can be quantified (Though 'I meditated and now can't handle my booze' might need some work to get there haha)

hoffman originally saw lsd as a cure for alcoholism...there were successful trials...

t

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
12/28/19 3:55 PM as a reply to Lars.
Lars:
Milo:

Sidenote: this feels like rich territory for Daniel's request to translate MCTB into medical thinking if there are measurable changes in autonomic nervous system sensitivity behind things like this and they can be quantified (Though 'I meditated and now can't handle my booze' might need some work to get there haha)

One thing i've noticed (and a few girlfriends over the years confirmed) is that I can no longer be tickled. I feel the usual physical sensations and aversive mental response, but i'm able to just ignore them and not respond physically or with giggling/laughing. It's supposed to be an autonomic response, but apparently it can rise to the level of conscious response. It's just about the most useless "siddhi" ever lol, but it's something that could be tested for in a medical setting. I'm curious if this is common, both in meditators and non-meditators.

hah!

the tickler

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
12/28/19 9:14 PM as a reply to Milo.
Milo:
There has been some interest in this topic on and off, along the lines of how has your meditation practice changed your day to day experience, baseline emotional level, experience of sex, etc.

One thing I've noticed is that my ability to self judge alcohol (And caffein) intoxication level has noticably decreased, which has sort of backdoored me into observing that precept more often for completely different reasons than I expected. Am I the only one or is this something others have noted?

Sidenote: this feels like rich territory for Daniel's request to translate MCTB into medical thinking if there are measurable changes in autonomic nervous system sensitivity behind things like this and they can be quantified (Though 'I meditated and now can't handle my booze' might need some work to get there haha)





from alan watts, "the wisdom of insecurity":


This, then, is the human problem: there is a price to be paid for every increase in consciousness. We cannot be more sensitive to pleasure without being more sensitive to pain. By remembering the past we can plan for the future. But the ability to plan for pleasure is offset by the “ability” to dread pain and to fear the unknown. Furthermore, the growth of an acute sense of the past and the future gives us a correspondingly dim sense of the present. In other words, we seem to reach a point where the advantages of being conscious are outweighed by its disadvantages, where extreme sensitivity makes us unadaptable.

Under these circumstances we feel in conflict with our own bodies and the world around them, and it is consoling to be able to think that in this contradictory world we are but “strangers and pilgrims.” For if our desires are out of accord with anything the finite world has to offer, itmight seem that our nature is not of this world, that our hearts are made, not for the finite, but for infinity. The discontent of our souls would appear to be the sign and seal of their divinity.

But does the desire for something prove that the thing exists? We know that it does not necessarily do so at all. It may be consoling to think that we are citizens of another world than this, and that after our exile upon earth we may return to the true home of our heart’s desire. But if we are citizens of this world, and if there can be no final satisfaction of the soul’s discontent, has not nature, in bringing forth man, made a serious mistake?

For it would seem that, in man, life is in hopeless conflict with itself. To be happy, we must have what we cannot have. In man, nature has conceived desires which it is impossible to satisfy. To drink more fully of the fountain of pleasure, it has brought forth capacities which make man the more susceptible to pain, It has given us the power to control the future but a little - the price of which is the frustration of knowing that we must at last go down in defeat. If we find this absurd, this is only to say that nature has conceived intelligence in us to berate itself for absurdity. Consciousness seems to be nature's ingenious mode of self-torture. 

Of course we do not want to think that this is true. But it would be easy to show that most reasoning to the contrary is but wishful thinking—nature’s method of putting off suicide so that the idiocy can continue. Reasoning, then, is not enough. We must go deeper. We must look into this life, this nature, which has become aware within us, and find out whether it is really in conflict with itself, whether it actually desires the security and painlessness which its individual forms can never enjoy.

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
12/29/19 12:20 AM as a reply to Mista Tibbs.
Mista Tibbs:
For example, to reproduce a marijuana type of high might take me anywhere from 30 minutes - 2 hours whereas a psilocybin high may take me 4 hours. I've met folk more proficient at this. Lighting a blunt takes half a second, but then again you don't have to work for those chemicals.

Steps to reproduce or it didn't happen emoticon. But seriously, is it like a concentration jhana where with enough focus and intention the state of mind arises? Some specific methodology would be v. interesting, for example is it like Pokemon where you have to spend time to catch the thing (like remembering the flavor) and then you can release it later anytime you want?

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
12/29/19 5:03 PM as a reply to Anton.
Anton:
Mista Tibbs:
For example, to reproduce a marijuana type of high might take me anywhere from 30 minutes - 2 hours whereas a psilocybin high may take me 4 hours. I've met folk more proficient at this. Lighting a blunt takes half a second, but then again you don't have to work for those chemicals.

Steps to reproduce or it didn't happen emoticon. But seriously, is it like a concentration jhana where with enough focus and intention the state of mind arises? Some specific methodology would be v. interesting, for example is it like Pokemon where you have to spend time to catch the thing (like remembering the flavor) and then you can release it later anytime you want?

The yogic sciences are not a religion or a philosophy. These are technologies for exploring the human physiology. Remove the vision of grandeur and all you are left with is an explication of a neurochemical base. There are methods for activating our system, these are endogenous responses that are mediated by psychological adaptations. This is the result of having a certain chemistry flooding the body interplaying with mental associations that allow for a blissed-out state. It would be incorrect to say this is just a state of mind. It is not that simple to just remember a high well enough. Jhanas are a product of the mind, the mind is only one factor here.

The brain is able to concoct its own natural occurring versions of the substance found in marijuana. We call these endocannabinoids. Endocannabinoid anandamides are concentrated during aerobic activity. Increased production of these anandamides then act on neurotrophins. Aerobic stress also stimulates cortisol hormone which then allows for the biosynthesis of these anandamides.  

I have an older brother that coincidentally loves pokemon. Recently he has encouraged me to borrow his console and try his games.

In pokemon terms, you need the right ball to catch the right pokemon. Here, the right ball would be the correct neurotrophin. This is BDNF. To promote BDNF you need the production of the hormone, ghrelin, which is produced when the stomach is empty. Then you require the correct arrangements in order for your desired encounter. This would be the proper breathing technique. Hypoxic breathing is involved, but much more thought is demanded in order to summate a simple 1,2 step system. The "pokemon" is the fruit of your labor.

The natural and marijuana high are not completely alike, keep in mind, along with marijuana are the "endless forms most beautiful" aka terpenes. Terpenes determine the type of high you receive. There are hundreds of terpenes. 
Cannabinoid receptors are packed in the brains network and all throughout the body
Both are expressed through heightened cerebral activity, mood-elevations, both mimic analgesic painkillers and squash anxiety, and so on. 

Let's understand this right now, that hypoxic exercises can be a slippery slope if you do not know what you are doing. Better strategies can be developed.

I am on this path of understanding walking alongside everyone else. Earlier I heard some mention of confusion. Confusion is good. The most horrible thing you could ever do to yourself is to identify with what you know. You can read every book on this earth, travel to an alien planet, learn their language, and read all of their books. And even then what you know about this reality will always be incomparable to what you do not know of this entire creation. If you identify with what you already know, then there is no reason to learn anything new because you've already made your own assumptions. Only when you are absolutely confused can the brain's processes be turned on at their best in order to pay attention to life fully. 

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
12/30/19 1:37 PM as a reply to Mista Tibbs.
Mista Tibbs:

I am on this path of understanding walking alongside everyone else. Earlier I heard some mention of confusion. Confusion is good. The most horrible thing you could ever do to yourself is to identify with what you know. You can read every book on this earth, travel to an alien planet, learn their language, and read all of their books. And even then what you know about this reality will always be incomparable to what you do not know of this entire creation. If you identify with what you already know, then there is no reason to learn anything new because you've already made your own assumptions. Only when you are absolutely confused can the brain's processes be turned on at their best in order to pay attention to life fully. 


aloha mr t,

   You are saying that you are absolutely confused? That sort of vitiates your arguments.

   You may be confusing confusion and what might be called "the suspension of judgment." 

   Perhaps it is your intention to confuse the two.

terry

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
12/30/19 10:34 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Mista Tibbs:

I am on this path of understanding walking alongside everyone else. Earlier I heard some mention of confusion. Confusion is good. The most horrible thing you could ever do to yourself is to identify with what you know. You can read every book on this earth, travel to an alien planet, learn their language, and read all of their books. And even then what you know about this reality will always be incomparable to what you do not know of this entire creation. If you identify with what you already know, then there is no reason to learn anything new because you've already made your own assumptions. Only when you are absolutely confused can the brain's processes be turned on at their best in order to pay attention to life fully. 


aloha mr t,

   You are saying that you are absolutely confused? That sort of vitiates your arguments.

   You may be confusing confusion and what might be called "the suspension of judgment." 

   Perhaps it is your intention to confuse the two.

terry

Sah,

Confusion gets roped into a plethora of suspicious conjecture so it's understandable why some find this idea objectionable. 
I mean confusion as a state of perplexity emoticon as a matter of course... as learning evolves, only more questions can be conceived.
To suspend judgment means to withhold perceptions until results posit confident knowledge.
What you know is what you know, that is fine. Relating knowledge to its degree of validation is important.
Alternatively, what you know is only what you know and this should be carried with a loose grip.
Organized cognitive disequilibrium isn't attempting to reach a final conclusion, it is just perpetually attentive
If managed properly, confusion can be constructive in generating a more engaged mind.
This is productive confusion, not hopeless confusion.
A growing intelligence should naturally supplement more curiosity and arouse more wonderment!
Successful confusion is invariably assimilating new information and intends to inspire greater depths of processing.

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
12/31/19 1:30 PM as a reply to Mista Tibbs.
Mista Tibbs:
terry:
Mista Tibbs:

I am on this path of understanding walking alongside everyone else. Earlier I heard some mention of confusion. Confusion is good. The most horrible thing you could ever do to yourself is to identify with what you know. You can read every book on this earth, travel to an alien planet, learn their language, and read all of their books. And even then what you know about this reality will always be incomparable to what you do not know of this entire creation. If you identify with what you already know, then there is no reason to learn anything new because you've already made your own assumptions. Only when you are absolutely confused can the brain's processes be turned on at their best in order to pay attention to life fully. 


aloha mr t,

   You are saying that you are absolutely confused? That sort of vitiates your arguments.

   You may be confusing confusion and what might be called "the suspension of judgment." 

   Perhaps it is your intention to confuse the two.

terry

Sah,

Confusion gets roped into a plethora of suspicious conjecture so it's understandable why some find this idea objectionable. 
I mean confusion as a state of perplexity emoticon as a matter of course... as learning evolves, only more questions can be conceived.
To suspend judgment means to withhold perceptions until results posit confident knowledge.
What you know is what you know, that is fine. Relating knowledge to its degree of validation is important.
Alternatively, what you know is only what you know and this should be carried with a loose grip.
Organized cognitive disequilibrium isn't attempting to reach a final conclusion, it is just perpetually attentive
If managed properly, confusion can be constructive in generating a more engaged mind.
This is productive confusion, not hopeless confusion.
A growing intelligence should naturally supplement more curiosity and arouse more wonderment!
Successful confusion is invariably assimilating new information and intends to inspire greater depths of processing.


    So, "organized cognitive disequilibrium" and "properly" "managed" "confusion" are "productive confusion, not hopeless confusion." This begs the question of whether the organizer and manager of said confusion is confused or not.

   An absence of doubt is not necessarily a form of knowledge. One may suspend judgment indefinitely.

terry






tao te ching, trans feng


20.


Give up learning, and put an end to your troubles.

Is there a difference between yes and no? 
Is there a difference between good and evil? 
Must I fear what others fear? What nonsense! 
Other people are contented, enjoying the sacrificial feast of the ox. 
In spring some go to the park, and climb the terrace, 
But I alone am drifting, not knowing where I am. 
Like a newborn babe before it learns to smile, 
I am alone, without a place to go.

Others have more than they need, but I alone have nothing. 
I am a fool. Oh, yes! I am confused. 
Others are clear and bright, 
But I alone am dim and weak. 
Others are sharp and clever, 
But I alone am dull and stupid. 
Oh, I drift like the waves of the sea, 
Without direction, like the restless wind.

Everyone else is busy, 
But I alone am aimless and depressed. 
I am different. 
I am nourished by the great mother.

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
12/31/19 1:34 PM as a reply to Mista Tibbs.
Mista Tibbs:
terry:
Mista Tibbs:

I am on this path of understanding walking alongside everyone else. Earlier I heard some mention of confusion. Confusion is good. The most horrible thing you could ever do to yourself is to identify with what you know. You can read every book on this earth, travel to an alien planet, learn their language, and read all of their books. And even then what you know about this reality will always be incomparable to what you do not know of this entire creation. If you identify with what you already know, then there is no reason to learn anything new because you've already made your own assumptions. Only when you are absolutely confused can the brain's processes be turned on at their best in order to pay attention to life fully. 


aloha mr t,

   You are saying that you are absolutely confused? That sort of vitiates your arguments.

   You may be confusing confusion and what might be called "the suspension of judgment." 

   Perhaps it is your intention to confuse the two.

terry

Sah,

Confusion gets roped into a plethora of suspicious conjecture so it's understandable why some find this idea objectionable. 
I mean confusion as a state of perplexity emoticon as a matter of course... as learning evolves, only more questions can be conceived.
To suspend judgment means to withhold perceptions until results posit confident knowledge.
What you know is what you know, that is fine. Relating knowledge to its degree of validation is important.
Alternatively, what you know is only what you know and this should be carried with a loose grip.
Organized cognitive disequilibrium isn't attempting to reach a final conclusion, it is just perpetually attentive
If managed properly, confusion can be constructive in generating a more engaged mind.
This is productive confusion, not hopeless confusion.
A growing intelligence should naturally supplement more curiosity and arouse more wonderment!
Successful confusion is invariably assimilating new information and intends to inspire greater depths of processing.

   I don't disagree with you, I just think you are a little confused.

   (wink)

t

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
12/31/19 7:30 PM as a reply to terry.
This begs the question of whether the organizer and manager of said confusion is confused or not.

terry


tao te ching, trans feng


20.


Give up learning, and put an end to your troubles.

Is there a difference between yes and no? 
Is there a difference between good and evil? 
Must I fear what others fear? What nonsense! 
Other people are contented, enjoying the sacrificial feast of the ox. 
In spring some go to the park, and climb the terrace, 
But I alone am drifting, not knowing where I am. 
Like a newborn babe before it learns to smile, 
I am alone, without a place to go.

Others have more than they need, but I alone have nothing. 
I am a fool. Oh, yes! I am confused. 
Others are clear and bright, 
But I alone am dim and weak. 
Others are sharp and clever, 
But I alone am dull and stupid. 
Oh, I drift like the waves of the sea, 
Without direction, like the restless wind.

Everyone else is busy, 
But I alone am aimless and depressed. 
I am different. 
I am nourished by the great mother.


Absolutely yes, I am confused! Because the answers I seek won't come until I fall dead.

Thank you for that really nice passage. It resonates wonderfully with this experience.
I believe that to have resolved certainty requires tunnel vision.
To remain uninfluenced is not so easy. Untouched by parental inculcation, from social situations, from teachings... to clearly see life is this particular unique experience's one pursuit. Because what is enforced upon you, that will never be useful. But what you chase, you will never forget that. 

A big thing for some diehard spiritualists is to remain totally uneducated. I get it, but that's too fancy for my tastes.

In my place of birth, not everyone gets to have an education. It is a privilege! When I arrived in America, I saw for myself...  that most of the other children didn't want to be in school...In fact, some even dreaded going! Speaking of confusion, that made me oh so much more confused! It dawned on me that the educational system in America is set up for failure. There's a whole narrative that could be put forth about instilling indoctrination rather than expanding on the child's natural curiosity. If you focus on increasing the child's curiosity, then wonder will ensue, following wonder can only be knowledge & intelligence.

Education will earn you a living. But to just earn a living doesn't translate to happiness. Go through the job market and you will see. I believe in establishing a career first, then going to college. I've dipped my toes in the horticultural business world already and hopefully, by the time I am 30, I will have the necessary fuel to power my ventures. 

As you've seen, speaking semantics is my Achillies heel! I think my first major should be English, then Literature, then I will choose a third, and fourth, and fifth... and still whether it is a religious, spiritual, or academic teaching, I will never be satisfied! 

Upon my death, only then can I have my answers and this confusion finally end emoticon

You enjoy life more when you can laugh at it.
Let the spirit of adventure set the tone.
A strong person and a waterfall always channel their own path
                                                                        -???

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
1/2/20 7:26 AM as a reply to terry.
   I don't disagree with you, I just think you are a little confused.

   (wink)

t


I am beginning to see (insight?!) that you, Terry, are what might be termed a compassionate troll. I do not mean that to be derogatory. I laugh at the engagement, and yet always pause to think about what you've said. 

Thanks

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
1/2/20 6:45 PM as a reply to Mista Tibbs.
Mista Tibbs:
This begs the question of whether the organizer and manager of said confusion is confused or not.

terry


tao te ching, trans feng


20.


Give up learning, and put an end to your troubles.

Is there a difference between yes and no? 
Is there a difference between good and evil? 
Must I fear what others fear? What nonsense! 
Other people are contented, enjoying the sacrificial feast of the ox. 
In spring some go to the park, and climb the terrace, 
But I alone am drifting, not knowing where I am. 
Like a newborn babe before it learns to smile, 
I am alone, without a place to go.

Others have more than they need, but I alone have nothing. 
I am a fool. Oh, yes! I am confused. 
Others are clear and bright, 
But I alone am dim and weak. 
Others are sharp and clever, 
But I alone am dull and stupid. 
Oh, I drift like the waves of the sea, 
Without direction, like the restless wind.

Everyone else is busy, 
But I alone am aimless and depressed. 
I am different. 
I am nourished by the great mother.


Absolutely yes, I am confused! Because the answers I seek won't come until I fall dead.

Thank you for that really nice passage. It resonates wonderfully with this experience.
I believe that to have resolved certainty requires tunnel vision.
To remain uninfluenced is not so easy. Untouched by parental inculcation, from social situations, from teachings... to clearly see life is this particular unique experience's one pursuit. Because what is enforced upon you, that will never be useful. But what you chase, you will never forget that. 

A big thing for some diehard spiritualists is to remain totally uneducated. I get it, but that's too fancy for my tastes.

In my place of birth, not everyone gets to have an education. It is a privilege! When I arrived in America, I saw for myself...  that most of the other children didn't want to be in school...In fact, some even dreaded going! Speaking of confusion, that made me oh so much more confused! It dawned on me that the educational system in America is set up for failure. There's a whole narrative that could be put forth about instilling indoctrination rather than expanding on the child's natural curiosity. If you focus on increasing the child's curiosity, then wonder will ensue, following wonder can only be knowledge & intelligence.

Education will earn you a living. But to just earn a living doesn't translate to happiness. Go through the job market and you will see. I believe in establishing a career first, then going to college. I've dipped my toes in the horticultural business world already and hopefully, by the time I am 30, I will have the necessary fuel to power my ventures. 

As you've seen, speaking semantics is my Achillies heel! I think my first major should be English, then Literature, then I will choose a third, and fourth, and fifth... and still whether it is a religious, spiritual, or academic teaching, I will never be satisfied! 

Upon my death, only then can I have my answers and this confusion finally end emoticon

You enjoy life more when you can laugh at it.
Let the spirit of adventure set the tone.
A strong person and a waterfall always channel their own path
                                                                        -???


aloha mt,

    I still think you are confused.

   Confusion is a condition in which inconsistent or opposing beliefs are held at the same time. The technique of suspended judgment is a way of dealing with confusion by acknowledging it but stepping aside from it. Most mental confusion will sort itself out if you don't obsess with it.

   Confusion is like pain, like dukkha. Life involves confusion, there are confused people everywhere. 

   Cutting to the chase, let's ask ourselves, was the buddha confused? Of course not. He was omniscient and all-seeing. Can we be like him? Yes. But, how is this possible? Understanding this, we can understand the nature of confusion.

   In the kannakathala sutta (majjhima nikaya, 90), king prasendi approached the blessed one and asked about a doctrine which he had heard one of his brahmins enunciate. 

5. Then King Prasendi of Kosala said to the Blessed One, " Venerable sir, I have heard this: "The recluse Gotama says: 'There is no recluse or brahmin who is omniscient and all-seeing, who can claim to have complete knowledge and vision, that is not possible."

   The buddha denies having said this, and when questioned further, says:

"I recall actually making the utterance in this way, great king: 'There is no recluse who knows all, who sees all, simultaneously; that is not possible.'"

   In bhikkhu bodhi's notes we find explanations of this from the early pali commentary, the majjhima atthakatha: 

846: MA: There is no one who can know all and see all - past, present, and future - with one act of mental adverting, with one act of consciousness; thus this problem is discussed in terms of a single act of consciousness (ekacitta).

and

714: MA explains that... According to the Theravada tradition the Buddha is omniscient in the sense that all knowable things are potentially accessible to him. He cannot, however, know everything simultaneously and must advert to whatever he wishes to know.  ...(H)e claims to know all that can be seen, heard, sensed, and cognized which is understood by the Theravadan tradition as an assertion of omniscience in the qualified sense.

   So, along with the buddha, we can "know all that can be seen, heard, sensed, and cognized." We just can't know it all right now, can't keep everything in mind all at the same time. The unconscious mind knows all, while the conscious mind sees only what is before it. Rather like macular and peripheral vision.

   Back to confusion: confusion is simultaneously "knowing" contradictory things. If we know everything all the time at an unconscious level, and we can only know one thing at a time consciously, then confusion does not exist. It is a delusion.

   In practice, if you stick to what you know, you won't be confused. (All truth is tautology.)

terry



from "the way of chuang tzu" trans merton
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/MertonChuangTzu.pdf


THREE IN THE MORNING

When we wear out our minds, stubbornly clinging to one partial view of things,
refusing to see a deeper agreement between this and its complementary opposite,
we have what is called "three in the morning."
What is this "three in the morning?"
A monkey trainer went to his monkeys and told them:
"As regards your chestnuts: you are going to have three
measures in the morning and four in the afternoon."
At this they all became angry. So he said: "All right,
in that case I will give you four in the morning and three in the
afternoon." This time they were satisfied.
The two arrangements were the same in that the number
of chestnuts did not change. But in one case the animals
were displeased, and in the other they were satisfied. The
keeper had been willing to change his personal arrangement
in order to meet objective conditions. He lost nothing by itl

The truly wise man, considering both sides of the ques­- 
tion without partiality, sees them both in the light of Tao.
This is called following two courses at once.
 [ii. 4.]

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
1/2/20 6:32 PM as a reply to Mista Tibbs.
Mista Tibbs:

Upon my death, only then can I have my answers and this confusion finally end emoticon





GNATS INSIDE THE WIND
(rumi, trans barks)


Some gnats come from the grass to speak with Solomon.

“O Solomon, you are the champion of the oppressed.
You give justice to the little guys, and they don’t get
any littler than us! We are tiny metaphors
for frailty. Can you defend us?”

“Who has mistreated you?”

“Our complaint is against the wind.”

“Well,” says Solomon, “you have pretty voices,
you gnats, but remember, a judge cannot listen
to just one side. I must hear both litigants.”

“Of course,” agree the gnats.

“Summon the East Wind!” calls out Solomon,
and the wind arrives almost immediately.

What happened to the gnat plaintiffs? Gone.

Such is the way of every seeker who comes to complain
at the High Court. When the presence of God arrives,
where are the seekers? First there’s dying,
then union, like gnats inside the wind.”

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
1/2/20 6:37 PM as a reply to T.
T:
   I don't disagree with you, I just think you are a little confused.

   (wink)

t


I am beginning to see (insight?!) that you, Terry, are what might be termed a compassionate troll. I do not mean that to be derogatory. I laugh at the engagement, and yet always pause to think about what you've said. 

Thanks

moi?


 Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroupforumchat room, or blog) with the intent of provokingreaders into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
1/3/20 12:55 AM as a reply to terry.

aloha mt,

    I still think you are confused.

   Confusion is a condition in which inconsistent or opposing beliefs are held at the same time. The technique of suspended judgment is a way of dealing with confusion by acknowledging it but stepping aside from it. Most mental confusion will sort itself out if you don't obsess with it.

   Confusion is simultaneously "knowing" contradictory things. If we know everything all the time at an unconscious level, and we can only know one thing at a time consciously, then confusion does not exist. It is a delusion.

   In practice, if you stick to what you know, you won't be confused. (All truth is tautology.)

terry

from "the way of chuang tzu" trans merton
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/MertonChuangTzu.pdf


That is fair, then it is fine to say i'm suspending judgment until after this life when I am no longer confused! Because who knows? Not this one. Of course, only 
God knows... emoticon 

Confusion is more than this idea of correspondence. You are absolutely right saying confusion will sort itself out... that's a huge flaw with the human creature! This repercussion is an effect of the accumulated karmic information we are born with, information that is passed through the germline. We have algorithmic brains with which to construct our own pieces of reality to fill in empty areas of life's puzzle. We've got to control and handle all the negativities in our genetics! What served as an evolutionary benefit is now obsolete and hindering us.

Confusion is dynamic. It is likely to continue until balance is restored through critical thinking, reasoning, and effortful resolution activities. The qualities of impact are based on whether it is simply ignored, attended to and "resolved", or attended to and "left unresolved". 


"We know everything at an unconscious level" That is A+, fifteen hundred percent! But bringing the unconscious to the level of conscious might be something that requires several lifetimes' worth of work. What is 100 years in the cosmic scale of time? No doubt, our greatest delusion.

Cutting to the chase, let's ask ourselves, was the buddha confused? Of course not. He was omniscient and all-seeing. Can we be like him? Yes. But, how is this possible? Understanding this, we can understand the nature of confusion.

   In the kannakathala sutta (majjhima nikaya, 90), king prasendi approached the blessed one and asked about a doctrine which he had heard one of his brahmins enunciate. 

5. Then King Prasendi of Kosala said to the Blessed One, " Venerable sir, I have heard this: "The recluse Gotama says: 'There is no recluse or brahmin who is omniscient and all-seeing, who can claim to have complete knowledge and vision, that is not possible."

   The buddha denies having said this, and when questioned further, says:

"I recall actually making the utterance in this way, great king: 'There is no recluse who knows all, who sees all, simultaneously; that is not possible.'"

   In bhikkhu bodhi's notes we find explanations of this from the early pali commentary, the majjhima atthakatha: 

846: MA: There is no one who can know all and see all - past, present, and future - with one act of mental adverting, with one act of consciousness; thus this problem is discussed in terms of a single act of consciousness (ekacitta).

and

714: MA explains that... According to the Theravada tradition the Buddha is omniscient in the sense that all knowable things are potentially accessible to him. He cannot, however, know everything simultaneously and must advert to whatever he wishes to know.  ...(H)e claims to know all that can be seen, heard, sensed, and cognized which is understood by the Theravadan tradition as an assertion of omniscience in the qualified sense.

   So, along with the buddha, we can "know all that can be seen, heard, sensed, and cognized." We just can't know it all right now, can't keep everything in mind all at the same time. The unconscious mind knows all, while the conscious mind sees only what is before it. Rather like macular and peripheral vision.

Guatama was a truly remarkable specimen...
Was the Buddha confused? Of course not! The buddha only cared about enlightenment. He attained and that was enough for him. He simply did not care about anything else within the scope of his life as he was simply a mortal man. Because he was only human. Because this material vehicle will take you no further. Then his goal was to aid others in attaining.

Buddha means "one who is above the mind". Guatama transcended his intellect. But he did not transcend his physiology. He denied a paradigm outside of human logic... he only very loosely explored esoteric principle... labeling them siddhis, and regarded them as mear distractions before waving them off. 

He was too right, they are not useful in the scheme of ending suffering. Enlightenment is the most prudent goal to be set.
These teachings prove impractical unless the student is already enlightened to begin with. So wonderful the lay practitioner may chase them in light of it while the most ardent student is only boggled by them.

He knew his mind-made goal, he knew how to convey his message and how to bring others to prosper enlightenment.
He was not confused; tunnel vision. The sooner we stop riding his back, the sooner we will understand that he was only human and that enlightenment is only the first step onto the starting line of a much greater stride.

... I teach suffering and the cessation of suffering.
                      - Guatama Siddhartha "Buddha" 

Guatama did indeed have lectures that went beyond suffering but he never made it so far.
When I listen to talk of "magic", all that I hear is the periodic table of elements. When someone utters "psychic powers" all that echoes is quantum mechanics.

The path to enlightenment is just a stone's throw skipping across this ocean of reality. You don't have to dive in, but you do have to make it to the other side. The Buddha spawned a wave that even after two thousand years, we are still riding on. But that wave is incomparable to that vast ocean which is Shiva "Adiyogi", the first meditator, the greatest meditator. That which brought yoga & meditation to this land xxxx of thousands of years ago. As long as we meditate, we will continue to appreciate that gift. Shiva means "that which is not" I will spare the thought of trying to contain Shiva within a post that's already deviated so far from the topic until there is a relevant reason to. 

Buddhism is just a fallen fruit which the masses feel too graced with, so much so they can't pick up their heads and see that tree of life from whence it came, whose root systems are the yogic sciences.

As for the monologue. Again, The buddha was truly a remarkable specimen. 

714: MA explains that... According to the Theravada tradition the Buddha is omniscient in the sense that all knowable things are potentially accessible to him. He cannot, however, know everything simultaneously and must advert to whatever he wishes to know.  ...(H)e claims to know all that can be seen, heard, sensed, and cognized which is understood by the Theravadan tradition as an assertion of omniscience in the qualified sense.

   So, along with the buddha, we can "know all that can be seen, heard, sensed, and cognized." We just can't know it all right now, can't keep everything in mind all at the same time. The unconscious mind knows all, while the conscious mind sees only what is before it. Rather like macular and peripheral vision.

When we know all things connected to ourselves, we will know the universe. 

... Why is this? 

Because this very existence is only known through internal devices.

The process by which we come to know our world through life and its activities is a dimension of knowledge that is created from within.

Take the visual apparatus. Light from yonder is cast upon the lens and the image is then reflected back onto the retina. This is known as ophthalmoception, or you can call this the sense of sight. 

The senses, as I see them, can be broken up into 10 faculties. But these various senses make up only 1/3rd of that which we call "experience". The latter two being perception and cognition. These two can also be separated and reduced down further.

It is only by these internal processes that the external can be known.

Does knowing this imply you immediately know everything in this creation?
Absolutely not, that is an absurdly huge leap. 
Who said that? I will throttle them myself! emoticon (kidding)

846: MA: There is no one who can know all and see all - past, present, and future - with one act of mental adverting, with one act of consciousness; thus this problem is discussed in terms of a single act of consciousness (ekacitta).

Speaking of consciousness... what do you think? I do not believe that word is being used properly. Please provide me with your understanding of consciousness so that I may see your perspective better. 


Sorrys to the OP, from straying from the topic so much... 

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
1/3/20 1:40 AM as a reply to Mista Tibbs.
I often find I learn the most from the conversations that stray a bit, to be honest. Carry on.

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
1/3/20 1:47 AM as a reply to terry.
Glad to see you active again, Terry. You always have such great quotes. Seriously, are you keeping a book or something? Just to return the favor a little, if you are looking for some fiction to read, I'd very much recommend a book called 'The Years of Rice and Salt' by Kim Stanley Robinson. I think you'd enjoy it muchly.

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
1/3/20 9:24 AM as a reply to terry.
 Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroupforumchat room, or blog) with the intent of provokingreaders into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

a (invented just now) Compassionate Dharma Troll is a person who instigates people or makes them potentially uncomfortable with their solidified idea(s), perspective and/or sense of self, distracting and sowing mental discord by posting potentially digressive or off-topic messages in an online dharma community (such as dharmaoverground) with the intent of provoking readers to question tightly held beliefs or views of self, and potentially displaying chinks in the armor of their entrenched perspective and normalizing tangential discussion, generally for the troll's amusement and the specific gain of offering an opportunity for introspection, revaluation, and further realization. This is always accompanied by a very apt quotation from some source material that may/not be related to the direct topic, but will always make one pause and think.


emoticon I hope you aren't taking me seriously; I'm not. I do enjoy reading your interactions and, though often out of my reach, get something out of them. 

As for long term practice and results (to try and be on topic to the original question), I have not been practicing that long in comparison to most people on the forum, so I can't necessarily speak to the answer. I have been doing dedicated meditative practice, minimum one hour per day, for 18 months. I have absolutely noticed space in which I can respond instead of react, I have noticed much more clarity and circumspection in daily life as events unfold (like seeing how other beings clinging/repulsing causes them so much personal anguish and being unable/willing to stop), and I had insight to centerlessness which has dramatically reduced the "weight of the world" on a very, very regular basis for me as a being. Though it isn't always so smooth (literally, within me as sensations) I can always access it when anything gets sticky and flow it on by with some seeing it for what it is. 

Outside of that, I am very intrigued by the long term changes one can experience that some people here discuss, as well as ideas posited by Shinzen Young about his permanent shifts in perception, etc. Perhaps one day...

Currently, like others seeking guidance on here - I'm just "battling" neck pain and stiffness as I notice "gone" everywhere

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
1/4/20 4:57 PM as a reply to Mista Tibbs.
Mista Tibbs:



Confusion is dynamic. It is likely to continue until balance is restored through critical thinking, reasoning, and effortful resolution activities. The qualities of impact are based on whether it is simply ignored, attended to and "resolved", or attended to and "left unresolved". 



snip


He was not confused; tunnel vision. The sooner we stop riding his back, the sooner we will understand that he was only human and that enlightenment is only the first step onto the starting line of a much greater stride.


snip


Speaking of consciousness... what do you think? I do not believe that word is being used properly. Please provide me with your understanding of consciousness so that I may see your perspective better. 




aloha mista,

   Any organism is in fact a balancing act, a homeostasis, or a collection of homeostases. By definition, an organism is persistent, it is self-maintaining, it possesses a degree of stability. It resists dissolution, and attempts to perpetuate itself through reproduction.

   The self-perception of an organism may well be that it is out of balance, as it constantly strives to gain, retain, and maintain balance. At any given instant, effort is put forth to achieve a balanced condition as the organism seeks rest, and the perception is of a being in flux and out of balance. Over the course of time, it may be seen that this balance is achieved and maintained through constant adaptation.

   So, while our ongoing perception  may be of being out of balance, such perceiving is a part of homeostasis, of maintaining a balanced condition. We are actually the balanced being, not the out of balance striver whose "tunnel vision" sees only arising and not passing away.


   Gotama was indeed only human. There is a sufi story about the prophet, peace be unto him. A mother's infant son crawled out onto a window ledge and was in danger. The mother was afraid the baby would fall if she reached for him. She consulted a nearby sufi who advised her to bring another baby to the ledge, and her child would then crawl toward it and be saved.

sura 18:110
Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “I am only a man like you, ˹but˺ it has been revealed to me that your God is only One God. So take the Straight Way towards Him, and seek His forgiveness. And woe to the polytheists


   My understanding of consciousness, hmm. I could say that consciousness is characteristic of all sentient beings, by definition. I think every cell is conscious. That is to say that all cells have an awareness of being out of balance, of needing to strive for essential nutrients, for self-preservation, for reproduction. And for cooperation. So consciousness is essentially the awareness of the unsatisfactory nature of existence.

   You can't understand consciousness without knowing existence; consciusness is awareness of what exists. It is existence that is obscure to us, not consciousness, which is simple wakefulness. (The scientific investigation of consciousness is a blind alley. The classic analogies are of a man searching for a jewel which is set in his forehead, or a man riding his horse, looking for his horse.)

   We are conscious of what exists, unconscious of what does not exist. If we understand existence as what we are conscious of, it becomes clear that much the greater part of reality is unmanifest, unconscious. Real, but non-existent in terms of consciousness. This does not mean we are only conscious of what we see. If we look at a house, it is blue on this side, but we automatically infer it is blue on the other side as well. We build our worlds from such inferences, and are often fooled, but in the aggregate get around pretty good. Balanced, more or less, though we are mostly aware of our stumbles; it is the nature of the (conscious) beast.

   The illusion of consciousness is its continuity; consciousness is actually discontinuous. Being as we are not aware of being not aware, we tend to proceed as though consciousnss were a continuous stream. The classic analogy is to the apparent "wheel of fire" that results when a torch is whirled in a circle. Even a infant's eyes will follow a thrown ball which passes behind a post, inferring that the ball will reemerge into perception after passing behind the post.

   What exists - what enters consciousness at a given moment - depends how familiar one's immediate world is. Enter a classroom, a library, a post office for the thousandth time and you focus on your business, you don't see the furniture or even the people except peripherally. If you enter such an environment for the first time everything is novel and you see a succession of fragmentary images, you need explanations. When my son went on the haj recently the woman sitting next to him on the plane for the last leg into mecca had never seen a seat belt before. Where we might not even register the command to "fasten your seat belt" and do it automatically, this woman was completely at sea. Seat belt? Seats wear belts? They didn't have a common language, so he ended up buckling it for her.

   Consciousness is like, where the rubber meets the road. We are only conscious of that friction, that ongoing strife. What is really going on is much greater, vastly, vastly greater. Beyond imagining.

   The idea that we can extend consciousness to measure the universe in any comprehensive or even coherent way is delusional, titanic hubris. It leads to the idea that we can improve the universe, by our own human lights. Make it more comfortable for our species, or our race, or subrace, nationality, polity, or village. My favorite aspect of buddhism is that it extends salvation to all sentient beings. (To a calf, god appears in the form of a cow.)

   So, to me consciousness is " a drop of oil on the buddha's foot." Not a mistake in itself; after all, guns don't kill people, people kill people, right? Consciousness is the means by which an individual cell or organism can improve its individual life and the lives of all sentient beings. That is to say, the means by which it achieves balance, the means of self-correction, of homeostasis.

  How is consciousness, as you suggest, misunderstood? People think they are aware of the whole of reality in being aware of what exists for them. Scientists and educators project maps and a vision of worlds and the universe, and then believe these projections actually are the universe, and the worlds. The original natural philosopher, thales, was famous for having been laughed at by a peasant girl for falling into a hole while looking up at the heavens. The more we understand, the less we know

   Finally, can you see how this relates to being confused about confusion? If we are present with what is in front of us, what we are actually conscious of, and not projecting an abstract future or past in an abstract universe unrelated to our experience, we deal simply with the matter at hand, and let the "big picture" take care of itself. As ram dass's friend haridas said, "If you can be here now, when later becomes now, you will have super consciousness and super energy and know exactly what to do." In reality, there is no later, no before, no now. The immediate and the great gem are One Pearl. Direct, simple engagement and acceptance that the grand scheme of things is well in hand. You do your job and let god do hers. As you say, it will all be sorted out in the end.

terry



tao te ching, trans mitchell:
https://terebess.hu/english/tao/mitchell.html


29.

Do you want to improve the world? 
I don't think it can be done.
The world is sacred. 
It can't be improved. 
If you tamper with it, you'll ruin it. 
If you treat it like an object, you'll lose it.
There is a time for being ahead, 
a time for being behind; 
a time for being in motion, 
a time for being at rest; 
a time for being vigorous, 
a time for being exhausted; 
a time for being safe, 
a time for being in danger.
The Master sees things as they are, 
without trying to control them. 
She lets them go their own way, 
and resides at the center of the circle. 



trans feng


56.

Those who know do not talk. 
Those who talk do not know.

Keep your mouth closed. 
Guard your senses. 
Temper your sharpness. 
Simplify your problems. 
Mask your brightness. 
Be at one with the dust of the Earth. 
This is primal union.

He who has achieved this state 
Is unconcerned with friends and enemies, 
With good and harm, with honor and disgrace. 
This therefore is the highest state of man.



trans mitchell


70.

My teachings are easy to understand 
and easy to put into practice. 
Yet your intellect will never grasp them, 
and if you try to practice them, you'll fail.
My teachings are older than the world. 
How can you grasp their meaning? If you want to know me, 
look inside your heart. 


71.
 
Not-knowing is true knowledge. 
Presuming to know is a disease. 
First realize that you are sick; 
then you can move toward health.
The Master is her own physician. 
She has healed herself of all knowing. 
Thus she is truly whole. 




from "101 zen stories", paul reps:
https://terebess.hu/zen/101ZenStones.pdf



82. Nothing Exists


Yamaoka Tesshu, as a young student of Zen, visited one master after another. He called upon Dokuon of Shokoku.

Desiring to show his attainment, he said: The mind, Buddha, and sentient beings, after all, do not exist. The true nature of phenomena is emptiness. There is no realization, no delusion, no sage, no mediocrity. There is no giving and nothing to be received.'

Dokuon, who was smoking quietly, said nothing. Suddenly he whacked Yamaoka with his bamboo pipe. This made the youth quite angry.

'If nothing exists,' inquired Dokuon, 'where did this anger come from?'




54. Last Will and Testament


Ikkyu, a famous Zen teacher of the Ashikaga era, was the son of the emperor. When he was very young, his mother left the palace and went to study Zen in a temple. In this way Prince Ikkyu also became a student. When his mother passed on, she left with him a letter. It read:

To Ikkyu:

I have finished my work in this life and am now returning Into Eternity. I wish you to become a good student and to realize your Buddha-nature. You will know if I am in hell and whether I am always with you or not.

If you become a man who realizes that the Buddha and his follower Bodhidharma are your own servants, you may leave off studying and work for humanity. The Buddha preached for forty-nine years and in all that time found it not necessary to speak one word. You ought to know why. But if you don't and yet wish to, avoid thinking fruitlessly.

Your Mother,
Not born, not dead. September first.

PS. The teaching of Buddha was mainly for the purpose of enlightening others. If you are dependent on any of its methods, you are naught but an ignorant insect. There are 80,000, books on Buddhism and if you should read all of them and still not see your own nature, you will not understand even this letter. This is my will and testament. 

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
1/4/20 5:35 PM as a reply to Milo.
Milo:
Glad to see you active again, Terry. You always have such great quotes. Seriously, are you keeping a book or something? Just to return the favor a little, if you are looking for some fiction to read, I'd very much recommend a book called 'The Years of Rice and Salt' by Kim Stanley Robinson. I think you'd enjoy it muchly.

   One of my favorites, I have posted about it. I've given copies of it away. I have listened to the audio book three times, and likely will again.

   Have you read the california triptych? I particularly like the one premised on eliminating venture capital by political means. Reminds me of huey long's plan. And the one about the defense industry is probably his best writing.

terry


EVERY MAN A KING
(huey long, aka "the emperor of louisiana")

Why weep or slumber America
Land of brave and true
With castles and clothing and food for all
All belongs to you
Ev'ry man a king ev'ry man a king
For you can be a millionaire
But there's something belonging to others
There's enough for all people to share
When it's sunny June and December too
Or in the winter time or spring
There'll be peace without end
Ev'ry neighbor a friend
With ev'ry man a king

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
1/5/20 12:37 AM as a reply to T.
T:
 Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroupforumchat room, or blog) with the intent of provokingreaders into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

a (invented just now) Compassionate Dharma Troll is a person who instigates people or makes them potentially uncomfortable with their solidified idea(s), perspective and/or sense of self, distracting and sowing mental discord by posting potentially digressive or off-topic messages in an online dharma community (such as dharmaoverground) with the intent of provoking readers to question tightly held beliefs or views of self, and potentially displaying chinks in the armor of their entrenched perspective and normalizing tangential discussion, generally for the troll's amusement and the specific gain of offering an opportunity for introspection, revaluation, and further realization. This is always accompanied by a very apt quotation from some source material that may/not be related to the direct topic, but will always make one pause and think.


emoticon I hope you aren't taking me seriously; I'm not. I do enjoy reading your interactions and, though often out of my reach, get something out of them. 

As for long term practice and results (to try and be on topic to the original question), I have not been practicing that long in comparison to most people on the forum, so I can't necessarily speak to the answer. I have been doing dedicated meditative practice, minimum one hour per day, for 18 months. I have absolutely noticed space in which I can respond instead of react, I have noticed much more clarity and circumspection in daily life as events unfold (like seeing how other beings clinging/repulsing causes them so much personal anguish and being unable/willing to stop), and I had insight to centerlessness which has dramatically reduced the "weight of the world" on a very, very regular basis for me as a being. Though it isn't always so smooth (literally, within me as sensations) I can always access it when anything gets sticky and flow it on by with some seeing it for what it is. 

Outside of that, I am very intrigued by the long term changes one can experience that some people here discuss, as well as ideas posited by Shinzen Young about his permanent shifts in perception, etc. Perhaps one day...

Currently, like others seeking guidance on here - I'm just "battling" neck pain and stiffness as I notice "gone" everywhere


   By either definition, I do amuse myself.

t

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
1/6/20 7:21 PM as a reply to terry.
aloha mista,

   Any organism is in fact a balancing act, a homeostasis, or a collection of homeostases. By definition, an organism is persistent, it is self-maintaining, it possesses a degree of stability. It resists dissolution, and attempts to perpetuate itself through reproduction.

   The self-perception of an organism may well be that it is out of balance, as it constantly strives to gain, retain, and maintain balance. At any given instant, effort is put forth to achieve a balanced condition as the organism seeks rest, and the perception is of a being in flux and out of balance. Over the course of time, it may be seen that this balance is achieved and maintained through constant adaptation.

   So, while our ongoing perception  may be of being out of balance, such perceiving is a part of homeostasis, of maintaining a balanced condition. We are actually the balanced being, not the out of balance striver whose "tunnel vision" sees only arising and not passing away.
 emoticon 

Very true. So to reiterate... the nature of life is a dramatization of energy. As a rule, a state of precise order can only become disorganized given enough time. The zillions of chemical affairs that request physical effort condition life. Homeostasis is not influenced by the workings of beyond, these are responses to the inner physiological state intermediated by the functions of perception that guide an organism's directionality. How it goes is, what began as random coordination evolved into systemacy designing us for balance (health).  

Health is wellness in the deepest most fundamental sense. Health is the harmonious equilibrium of all the elements and forces making up and surrounding the animate being. The most marvelous caliber within the nature of the beast is the body's ability to heal itself!
We are balanced beings without question!

So an organism is a balancing act. And life is a spectrum of engagement. We are designed this way because, at the unequivocal moment of any sign of unpleasantness, every cell in the body, every bodily function, and the very life energies will begin to work arduously to restore peace. This is our natural mode

By this token, if one's perceptions of life are a continuous disturbance... that should surely tell the logical one there is something fundamentally wrong with its lifestyle!
  
 (The scientific investigation of consciousness is a blind alley. The classic analogies are of a man searching for a jewel which is set in his forehead, or a man riding his horse, looking for his horse.)  
emoticonScience dogma #2: Matter does not have consciousness. Stars, planets, rocks, and elements are material things and material things cannot have consciousness.

emoticonScience dogma #8: All consciousness is the activity of your brain and nothing more!  

Honestly, I'm with you buddy. Can we please take a moment and appreciate the foolishness...
Isn't the brain made of matter? By this outline anyway, humans should not have consciousness emoticon

.
.
.

The insights I have made by means of personal experience in deep altered states is that consciousness permeates everything. Consciousness is the underlying geniture of the matter in all of this creation. It is no thing, not nothing, no thing. That means non-physical. Because consciousness is non-physical in quality, it acts as an emergent concept to manifest in matter. Matter is a causal property.

All physical matter in this universe really is just energy. It is just so firmly packed to give the allusion of solidity. Not to come off as neurotic; A slap across the face is always a great lesson in carnality. My point is that if you get down to the atomic level, you will realize that we are all just buzzing motion. Matter is alive with kinetic motion in vibrant oscillating quaking movements of excitement!
But probing deeper will make one aware of voids or gaps of empty space between the droning rhythm. Behind this is a force that holds the generative nature of reality. 

Beyond this stage, personal understanding out of direct inquest begins to dwindle. I avoid this territory because I only have a loose epitome of identity & self, but i'm working on developing those. This is just an opinion... that if spiritual terminology must be used, it only implies a lack of relevant understanding in current modernity. And if one does not possess the appropriate understanding of something then it shouldn't be fucking talked about, but there are always exceptions with sharing ideas... 
From my stubborn study of spirituality, I am open to the possibility that pressing these bounds further is "pure consciousness" or  "zenith" or "pure wisdom" or "the supreme self" or "reconnection" or "the source of creation" or "God".

We are consciousness. Again, not to sound neurotic, we are human beings, conscious agents. But our essence is consciousness, we do not perform consciousness. This is only an interpretation based on my experience of life, or meditation if you wanna call it that. So I am open to criticism.

It would be wise to include a notice about this "void or gap of empty space" for this particular community at the risk of mystifying others.
The human creature can be divided into 5 distinct bodies. Most Buddhists reside in the mind, which is confined to the first body. Because the mind is a product of the brain, it falls under physical constitution. The mind operates in cyclical patterns. Cycles must have a moment of rest before recommencement. This can certainly be expressed as a break, or, pause or "gap" but this is something of its own completely unrelated events.

Edit*** It should also go without saying that the mind itself is no thing either. the mind is only the sum of all the brain centers working in mutual support of a framework of reality. The programming for this virtual reality is the senses, not all animals have the same senses ie same view of this world. The mind is the sum of its parts so it remains categorized under physical. But it is not a true "entity".

 How is consciousness, as you suggest, misunderstood? People think they are aware of the whole of reality in being aware of what exists for them. Scientists and educators project maps and a vision of worlds and the universe, and then believe these projections actually are the universe, and the worlds. The original natural philosopher, thales, was famous for having been laughed at by a peasant girl for falling into a hole while looking up at the heavens. The more we understand, the less we know

Subjective experience of this existence is enough logic for the ego.
The material theory is that consciousness is a product of brain biochemistry. We are told the brain generates consciousness in the same way a generator creates electricity. That neural activity is causal in the subjective experience of reality. While only the latter is true, calling subjective experience as consciousness is just silly. The collated systems and processes of the brain and body are set up for perception, for cognition, for thinking and learning, for behavior... but not for creating consciousness. The hypothesis that the brain acts as a conductor to prime consciousness is more realistic at least.
Subjective experience is... subjective experience emoticon
Calling consciousness an experiential derivative is a mistaken belief. We have a problematic tendency to call this & that consciousness... super consciousness drivel and sense consciousness jazz. "Consciousness" has become a reference frame. A reference frame so deeply held that we've forgotten it is just a reference frame.

  
My understanding of consciousness, hmm. I could say that consciousness is characteristic of all sentient beings, by definition. I think every cell is conscious. That is to say that all cells have an awareness of being out of balance, of needing to strive for essential nutrients, for self-preservation, for reproduction. And for cooperation. So consciousness is essentially the awareness of the unsatisfactory nature of existence.


   You can't understand consciousness without knowing existence; consciusness is awareness of what exists. It is existence that is obscure to us, not consciousness, which is simple wakefulness. (The scientific investigation of consciousness is a blind alley. The classic analogies are of a man searching for a jewel which is set in his forehead, or a man riding his horse, looking for his horse.)

   We are conscious of what exists, unconscious of what does not exist. If we understand existence as what we are conscious of, it becomes clear that much the greater part of reality is unmanifest, unconscious. Real, but non-existent in terms of consciousness. This does not mean we are only conscious of what we see. If we look at a house, it is blue on this side, but we automatically infer it is blue on the other side as well. We build our worlds from such inferences, and are often fooled, but in the aggregate get around pretty good. Balanced, more or less, though we are mostly aware of our stumbles; it is the nature of the (conscious) beast.

   The illusion of consciousness is its continuity; consciousness is actually discontinuous. Being as we are not aware of being not aware, we tend to proceed as though consciousnss were a continuous stream. The classic analogy is to the apparent "wheel of fire" that results when a torch is whirled in a circle. Even a infant's eyes will follow a thrown ball which passes behind a post, inferring that the ball will reemerge into perception after passing behind the post.

   What exists - what enters consciousness at a given moment - depends how familiar one's immediate world is. Enter a classroom, a library, a post office for the thousandth time and you focus on your business, you don't see the furniture or even the people except peripherally. If you enter such an environment for the first time everything is novel and you see a succession of fragmentary images, you need explanations. When my son went on the haj recently the woman sitting next to him on the plane for the last leg into mecca had never seen a seat belt before. Where we might not even register the command to "fasten your seat belt" and do it automatically, this woman was completely at sea. Seat belt? Seats wear belts? They didn't have a common language, so he ended up buckling it for her.

   Consciousness is like, where the rubber meets the road. We are only conscious of that friction, that ongoing strife. What is really going on is much greater, vastly, vastly greater. Beyond imagining.

   The idea that we can extend consciousness to measure the universe in any comprehensive or even coherent way is delusional, titanic hubris. It leads to the idea that we can improve the universe, by our own human lights. Make it more comfortable for our species, or our race, or subrace, nationality, polity, or village. My favorite aspect of buddhism is that it extends salvation to all sentient beings. (To a calf, god appears in the form of a cow.)

   So, to me consciousness is " a drop of oil on the buddha's foot." Not a mistake in itself; after all, guns don't kill people, people kill people, right? Consciousness is the means by which an individual cell or organism can improve its individual life and the lives of all sentient beings. That is to say, the means by which it achieves balance, the means of self-correction, of homeostasis.
 

I believe every time the word consciousness is sung, it can be swapped out for more suitable wording. May I please nitpick?



RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
1/6/20 2:27 PM as a reply to terry.
I haven't read it. I'll have to add it to my reading list.

RE: Side Effects of Long Term Meditation Practice
Answer
1/6/20 8:21 PM as a reply to Mista Tibbs.
Mista Tibbs:

 May I please nitpick?




that much is clear