Hi folks,

Here's a hypothetical question for anyone really, but I'd particularly like to hear from anyone who might have been in this situation.

Imagine a person is lucky enough to achieve stream entry via some meditative practice, but without appeciating the significance of the event at the time, other than for it's WOW factor.

They continue to practice for a while, have an A&P in the next cycle, and then falter under the weight of the Dark Night. They do not practice for ~15 years or so.

After such a long break, as their practice resumes in earnest, what difficulties might they experience? How might further progress be impeded by the length of the break?

Thanks to all for your input,
Patrick

what's the reason you ask this hypothetical question?

i can't really answer, having not gone through that myself. i could take an educated guess, maybe, but it could just be very far off. the best way to find out would be to have such a person begin practicing, writing down and communicating their notes, and asking the advice of others as they continue their renewed practice.

how is that even possible? a stream enterer must still have all his/her senses intact and the awareness and attention to recognize how life has changed even if he/she doesn't know what the books or gurus call that change.


i think of it more as a PHEW factor. the WOW factor stuff you get when crossing the A&P the first or first few times. were there to be a WOW factor, that would make it even less likely for the significance of the event to have not been appreciated.


i can't imagine how that is possible either. it seems that having passed through the first dark night and having gained experiential no-self insight, whether through traditionally taught meditative methods or one's own problem solving and insight, one would be plenty prepared to deal with any kind of mental/emotional/physical struggle, even if it comes (though never in my experience) in a more extreme form than any previous experience. i would expect this person to still be able to find silver lining under the harshest circumstances and manage to squeeze some inspiration from having the insight to face life's ups and downs more skillfully than before.


progress wouldn't be impeded by any length of any break. i would think the stream enterer's insights should still continue to deepen and be integrated in daily life, as those insights would color just about every bit of experience. progress would still be happening but just not be accelerated due to lack of (whatever) practice (that might accelerate it). i guess we could say that further progress may be "impeded" by the meditator's lack of deeper insight/skill/experience or baggage, practice or no practice.

basically, when "practice resumes" i would expect this uncommon(fictional?) stream enterer to pick up farther along on the path despite 15 years of some kind of "break from practice".

what leads you to hypothesize this specific circumstance? does it in some way help you figure out what's possible and worthwhile for you to pursue?

jill

Hi Partrick,

My experience hasn't been 15 years but about 16 months. I didn't realise what had happened regarding the stream entry as I had no knowledge of maps and such although I did notice certain permanent shifts in perspective, higher levels of general equanimity, intuitive understanding when hearing spiritual rants and the feeling of having 'woken up' shortly after the event, also bunch of energetic stuff. I have only in the last few days come to the knowledge of what this event was in terms of Buddhism (thanks dho, mtcb) and have started practicing so take my experience in its context.

Difficulties so far regarding starting/returning to practice have been:

i) that the intensity of cycles becomes very clear, most likely due to giving them more attention
ii) insights shifting into daily life more often, noting the 3 chars sometimes on auto pilot, noticing the shifting of perspectives regarding where 'I' am located. This point has been of difficulty as it is simply a different level of intensity to what it was a few days ago. Eg. previously i would spontaneously notice the shifting perspectives (impermanence) and curiosity about why there is self when I had been shown otherwise: but not near as regularly.

I hadn't meditated in earnest for 5 years or so and now when I meditate it is a vastly different experience to what it was previously. Specifically there is much less aversion to it, much more clarity, moving through different stages a lot quicker than previous.

So to summarise, the difficulties relate to adjusting to the whirlwind of increased clarity as a result of stream entry. Seems kinda silly to call it a difficulty really, heh.

Hi again everyone,

First off, thanks to all for the considered replies.

In answer to some of your responses, my post is semi-auto-biographical. Many years ago, I meditated in earnest for about six months, but without any knowledge of the stages of insight, or in fact any framework. In spite of that, I had many interesting experiences (recounted elsewhere on DHO), with one being truly profound, from my point of view at least. Not in an astounding, amazing, lightning-bolts-up-and-down-my-spine way (although I had these as a child), but in a calm, quiet, subtle, winking out of consciousness for a short time sort of way (also recounted elsewhere). Was it stream entry? Not sure. It changed me in subtle ways, in terms of understandings and perceptions. The following few days were wondrous. I was very aware that it was significant, but without a framework of understanding, I was not aware of its significANCE, if you get my meaning. At that point, it was just one more (remarkable) speed-bump along what I had assumed to be a fairly straight path ahead.

It would be nice to think that it was SE, but I am understandably wary of assuming too much. A few months afterward, I had what more typically equates with another A&P event, as described here and in MCTB. And shortly after that, meditation became difficult and frustrating (from what I can remember), and I simply stopped after a time (again, without knowing that this might have been expected).

In the time since then, there were very brief periods of practice, but more recently (for the last two+ years), I have been reading extensively, and practicing in earnest again (30 minutes, twice each day, more if possible). And I have spent some time trying to make sense of my past experiences. In my readings, I came across MCTB, and am very thankful for its contents, and the DHO.

My current situation is that progress has been very slow, relative to what I experienced way back when. I have no doubt about the value of my practice, but with whatever time I've got left, I would obviously like to optimize my chances of further progress, which is why I am wondering about mitigating the/any impact of so long a gap between efforts. How would that, could that, should that, affect progress? Again, my thanks for the feedback you have provided in this regard.

What next?
Everyone's experience is different...check.
Don't get obsessively caught up in the finer detail of the maps...check.
Just sit...check

Recently, having learned more about other meditative techniques, I've been doing more noting practice, both on the cushion and off (even on the subway), and have seen some progress. Not nearly as rapid-fire as my original practice, but territory that seems familiar in quality at least.

Cheers,
Patrick

i don't think it's beneficial to try to figure out whether you are a stream enterer by seeing what problems a hypothetical stream-enterer-avec-15-year-break might have and seeing if they match up with your current experience. 1) it's a pretty inaccurate approach, 2) if any descriptions match up to current problems you have you might justify them unnecessarily, e.g. 'oh thats why thats there - cause of that gap. darn that gap! woe is me..', instead of just investigating them and continuing to sit, 3) you might manifest some of those problems subconsciously if you do want to have 'stream entry'.

it's basically impossible to say unless you experience a fruition and know it, whether it's for the first time (i.e. you weren't a stream-enterer before) or not (i.e. you were and it's a review fruition or a new path).

so with that in mind... just sit. instead of asking what problems someone who might be in your situation might have, just sit. and when you identify a problem you actually have, just sit[1].

[1] kidding[2]! then you can ask specific questions about it and get advice that will likely be more helpful than this advice, as it would be coming from your direct experience and be immediately relevant to you.

[2] not really, as that's what you do regardless, but asking for advice helps to orient you.

Hello Beoman,

Thanks for the additional feedback. Short of any astounding insights or revelations offered, the general plan was to "just sit" either way, as you suggest.

If nothing else though, I've learned from Matt (above) that wherever I am on the journey, I am not so far off the beaten path, or at least less far afield than I could be

Patrick