Possible Stream Entry

I'm once again in the process of talking myself into thinking i have attained a path. Wondering whether it really was a path is not a particularly helpful process for my practice, most of it is just my ego playing out various dreams of glory, though there is some small bit of honest investigation in there. The vague dreams of glory are particularly silly, and doesn't fit the experience at all. They are also reflected in my writing "a path" instead of "stream-entry"

So i thought i'd take my doubts here, as you guys usually have a way of helping me put a more helpful perspective on things.

Anyways, gonna quote from the slightly edited entry from my practice notes, to give a sense of the experiences at the time it happened (yesterday). I didn't want to post at that time, since it would engage the "I"/Ego too much and i wanted to see a bit more of what happened before writing. The slanted text is things i've added today.



Today, i felt good and peaceful, and began to conclude that i was in equanimity. Work seemed a bit different, for a while i imagined i understood some of what i read about meditation and nonmeditation being the same, but when i tried to study like that, it didn't work at all.
Biking home, i discovered that my mood seemed to be shifting, i had some depression, then some fear and other stuff, then shifted to a more clear and peaceful equanimity-like state. I tried to have an open and inclusive awareness and not project anything, but i wasn't able to abandon expectations very much at all. On the last part of the way home, i had what might have been fruitions. I couldn't get any sort of clear impression of whether i was actually blinking out completely. It seemed like the pressure in the third eye closed like a fist around my awareness, my eyes blinked involuntarily, and i awareness seemed to recede. Sometimes there was a little jerk in my crown or third-eye chakras, or in the shoulders.

Had pretty much the same experience just now, with some variations, when i got the impulse to do a "just sit" instead of the usual directed vipassana or shamatha. There was some build up and i might have been going up the nanas, but not sure, i was a bit distracted by the third-eye-pressure going in and out like it was attached to a rubber band, "pressing down" on my awareness on the way in.

Anyways, what do you guys say. All comments are of course welcome, but especially your most honest and direct guess about whether this was stream entry, or what else it might be.

it looks like your practice is really hindered by the directed approach you take to it, i.e. trying to get into formless jhanas and trying to attain nirodha samapatti[1].

what happens if you just sit and notice what is happening without trying to take any direction at all? you might have many tendencies to go one way or another if you try the new approach - just notice them and let them pass without following them.

in particular it's impossible to tell by your current descriptions whether you entered 5th jhana or above, or any of the jhanas really , as you label them without describing them ("...went up the jhanas pretty automatically... had to direct a bit to get to 5th... i think i got to 7th..."). focus more on noticing the sensations that are happening and less on labeling, at least for now, at least while describing the sits to others. maybe you do get those jhanas; maybe you have inaccurately labeled them and such labeling is affecting how you notice phenomena making it harder to realize what you're actually doing.

[1] you can't get NS without having had stream entry, by definition, as it is essentially a specially set-up fruition. it also seems inaccessible even to stream-enterers until they have a few more paths

Hi Beoman
Thanks for the reply! Your concerns seem quite valid to me.



You might be right. Everytime i've gone to being less directive and more gentle/soft touch, it's been an improvement in my practice



Actually, i did that earlier tonight, since it seemed like the right thing to do. Will have to do it again, as i can't remember what it was like, other than seeming like a good practice - the not trying to direct anything at all seems very very hard, even noticing something seems to change the phenomena, and directing attention even more so.



Actually, i was trying to describe sensations as accurately as possible when i wrote this down but what i call formless realms weren't all that clear. Those states, for me, occur in what i call mental space - something that seems spacelike, overlapping with specific areas of physical space, at least for the part closest to my head, but seeming to not be the same place as the physical space). When i shift to what i call the formless realms, attention shifts from being centered in the physical body to being centered in mental space (this also seems like the world getting darker). I seem to have very little in the way of "senses" in mental space. There is a vague sense of the place, which has a center, but to see the qualities it might have (indicating a specific formless realm), i have "look around" using something like pure "flashlight-style" attention.
This time, the qualities were hard to be sure of.
I agree with describing (and seeing) sensations instead of labels being a good idea. Since i tried doing that here, i guess i just have to get even better at it, which seems like a good idea in any case
I didn't feel the need to describe the first four jhanas, since i don't really doubt what they are or that i go there (i do sometimes get a little lost and become unsure where i am).



I know. But it had seemed to me earlier that i found the "door" or the way to enter (it corresponded with various things i read/listened to, which of course also means that i might have imagined it). As i recall, i was primarily doing a moving-up-the-jhanas, seeing-the-3-characteristics, and letting-go-of-things. However, curious, i wanted to see whether i could enter what seemed like the "door" to NS. I still mostly did just notice the three characteristics in things and then letting go of them.
Also, while you can't get NS without stream entry, that says nothing about finding the way to almost-entering. Of course, there are good odds that i've imagined or constructed that, and haven't really found any such thing.

Firstly, your honest with yourself and others on here is refreshing and stands as a great example. The mistakes we make along the Path are some of the most valuable moments to learn from, I've made an arse of it repeatedly and felt like a twat but I've learned a lot from it. Maintain that honesty, humility and some healthy skepticism and you'll make progress.

Now, back to business....





Just thought I'd get creative with the reply, hence the boxouts.

Seriously though, strip back what you're doing and go back to basics and you'll see why I keep going on about this. Build the foundation on solid ground and the house won't fall down. You seem like you've got your shit together and have a natural ability with this so use it, don't get caught up in fantasy during practice, just note it as "fantasizing" or whatever, and learn what these terms you're using actually relate to.

Looking forward to your next update!

Metta, Mudita and a dropkick from Hulk Hogan.
- Tommy

Angry, disappointed. Notes "angry, disappointed" ;)

Going to sleep now. Thanks for the reply, I suspect it was just what i needed to hear.

Metta
Villum

Edit: Notes "pride" ;)

Don't sweat it, it's all just being seeing for what it is and you're getting it done, not just thinking about it.
You can do this, just stop letting yourself get in the way.

I know I can sound like I'm being a dick sometimes, it's not personal but I'd rather cut to the chase and say "Look, here's where you're going wrong" than become your online friend. That may sound a bit cold but I genuinely do care about helping people to wake up to what's right there in front of them, sometimes it's better to drop the banter and get down to business and sometimes that means being blunt and honest, however unpleasant that may be. I've had my ass kicked with this too and it hurts, but it all passes and we learn from it. We all fuck up, that's just the way of it and nobody is "perfect".

Take care mate, just keep at it and keep us updated.

Understood. The "door" i talked about still seems attractive, i'm throwing the experimentation with it far into the category of "playtime"



This one's gonna be hard to follow your advice on. First:
The Witness
First, that sounds like the witness i use. I've used the "who am i", but usually do a non-linguistic looking for "the one experiencing this". If i try to focus my attention directly on it, instead of just resting there, this "witness" seems perfectly slippery - attention seems to slide off it and to the side. I can keep trying to focus directly on it, and make my attention stay near it, being redirected and then going back. It's very much like the "witness was a very tall mountain, and my attention was ball - whenever i try to roll the ball to the top, it rolls right back long before it reaches the summit.
It was around this object that a crust of "I" seemed to reform the evening i describe in the post.
Second, Jhana
This will probably be more constructive in the practice thread i'm going to start, instead of going here.



First, i don't note the three characteristics, i notice them - though i sometimes have to bring up a specific perspective to notice no-self and suffering (i think i actually got that one right, but gonna read up on the three characteristics anyways.



I agree it's somewhat easily avoided while actually on the cushion. It's off the cushion that i get really into it. Will try to cut away the judging jhanas, et.c, at least until the meditation is over.



I'm trying to be extremely wary of this - my self-hypnosis practice taught me a thing or two about the mind's ability to very subtly construct experiences. Also, thanks



I suspect there's less confused understanding and more bad communication on my part than you think. Also probably more confused understanding than i think, but will read up on some basics.



Since december, february or may, depending on what you count. Started with guided meditations in the psychological mindfulness tradition. Then started jhana-oriented concentration practice. Then started dedicated insight practice.



I will make a practice thread and we will see how things turn out. I will say that if it's A&P, i'm pretty sure it's not the first time i've been there.



As i said, i think the foundation is more solid than you do. However, that doesn't mean that it isn't a good idea to go back to basics, and i will do so



I have noticed your style by now, and its become apparent that there's nothing hostile in it ;) Thanks for helping. Also, dealing with how social stuff can distract from something much more important can be messy, so i appreciate your clear stance. Let's close that subject here. You can stop apologizing for being blunt, and i'll let you know if you go too far.

Metta
Villum

part of the issue is simply that i haven't read your descriptions of the jhanas, only this post saying how you think you're getting into them, and skimming through your other posts they seem similarly constructed.

so when you start your practice thread, though you can clearly label this as 1st jhana, this as 2nd, that as 3rd, this as 5th or 6th, etc, try reporting it without using the word 'jhana' at all. just say what actually happens in terms of the experience. if you were thinking and doing 'i then tried going into 3rd jhana' during the sit, for example, translate that into how exactly you tried going into 3rd jhana, like what you focused on. it will be more apparent from those descriptions which jhanas you're going into, then we can be on the same page.

In case you haven't yet, perhaps take the time to notice that this "door" is impermanent, not-self and unsatisfactory. So is the feeling of being attracted to it. Pretty much every time I got a feeling that "This is it!" it was just a feeling that "This is it!" at best, it was a distraction. Most of the time it was actually blocking my progress (since it got solidified into a thing, became a target for craving and so a cause for clinging to self).

Eran.

On further investigation, the "Witness"(duh) i'm talking about here seems to have been the touch-sensations around one of my eyes. I'm finding entirely new ways of being wrong!

I'm considering adding a recital of the Twelve virtues of Rationality to my practice ;). Seriously though, they are good to keep in mind, if that specific formulation resonates with you.

My bad entirely, I agree that it's down to communication but I think this is just an inevitable limitation of talking about this stuff via the internet. I appreciate you taking the time to clarify the stuff here, it's helpful in being able to maybe offer some advice on how to improve your practice but please don't think I'm trying to be some sort of authority here, what I say is just based on my own practice and as subject to correction as anything else. Same goes for the 3C's, I reported this in the same way and had to clarify that I wasn't actually noting, just observing, and I wondered if you were maybe doing the same. Such is life.

With regards to the Witness, it's probably worth working with this more and then trying to dwell in that state, even in daily life. It's excellent that you can get to it and working with that as an existing skill will serve you well as a great tool.

You also mentioned self-hypnosis? What sort of thing have you done? I'm really interested in hypnotherapy, neuro-linguistics and all that kinda stuff so it'd be cool to hear what you've been doing.

The A&P? Aye, chances are you've probably crossed it before and experienced it during a sit if you're noting is as detailed as it seems. Coupled with strong concentration, you've got a winning team!

Lookin' forward to y'er thread!