Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan David A 10/10/09 2:32 AM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan tarin greco 10/10/09 9:03 AM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan Chuck Kasmire 10/10/09 10:36 AM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan J Adam G 10/10/09 9:32 PM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan David A 10/19/09 12:48 AM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan tarin greco 10/19/09 3:36 PM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan David A 10/19/09 1:39 PM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan David A 10/11/09 2:36 PM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan J Adam G 10/12/09 3:18 PM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan David A 10/12/09 11:50 PM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan chamaeleon yogi 2/4/10 1:07 AM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan David A 2/9/10 11:26 PM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan chamaeleon yogi 2/15/10 2:18 AM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan chamaeleon yogi 7/18/10 1:09 PM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan This Good Self 7/19/10 12:06 AM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan David A 7/19/10 12:22 AM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan David A 7/19/10 12:34 AM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan Luckee Simpleton 7/19/10 12:57 AM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan This Good Self 7/20/10 4:43 AM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan chamaeleon yogi 1/9/12 2:28 PM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan David A 7/18/10 11:31 PM
RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan Daniel Johnson 2/13/10 3:16 AM
David A, modified 14 Years ago at 10/10/09 2:32 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/10/09 1:59 AM

Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

Posts: 27 Join Date: 10/10/09 Recent Posts
Hi all. First DhO post. I emailed Dan Ingram recently and asked him for advice. We talked on the phone and he also recommended I post my email on DhO and get a wide variety of opinions from the many strong yogis here.

I'd spoken with Dan only one other time before, a few years ago, not long after I'd read MCTB. At the time I was in renunciate mode (and a bit of shadow-side-making mode), living on 8 precepts in NYC and planning on becoming a Thai Forest monk. That never happened, but I did however follow through on my plan to quit my job, leave NYC, and do a long MBMC retreat and a stint of traveling to find a new life. I did the retreat. It ended quite badly. I wrote a huge email to Dan and never sent it. I spent two months in SE Asia recovering and then traveled for a good long time after that in various places and returned to the U.S. last December. This year so far has been very tough.

Here's the email I sent to Dan, shortened:


...

I am writing you hoping you can help me recognize what stages I was in during retreat and what stage I am in now, and also I'd like your advice about how to modulate my practice, including whether or not to follow through on a one month IMS retreat I've registered for. My belief is that I'm in a Dark Night, and I'm a bit divided about how to proceed.

What happened at MBMC (3.5 month retreat in the summer of 2007 ... ):

Awareness/concentration: I could easily keep the assigned meditation objects in mind for the full session. I might have missed one or two breaths or footsteps per hour but that was about it. I noted from the moment I gained consciousness in the morning to when I lost consciousness falling asleep. For a long period of time I was noting mono-syllabically five times a second. It happened automatically for the most part and I was aware of the pulses that I noted, the notes themselves, and any inane thoughts or mental conversations I was having simultaneously, and was also aware that these different mental streams were being observed by something. I had a fair amount of detachment from what I was noting. Even when things went totally nuts it felt like I was watching a movie character go nuts and could note the super-fast alternation between fear, craziness, and amusement over going nuts...it was like watching a movie reel with different narratives spliced together in alternating frames.

Weirdness/raptures:

--Electrical energy coursing through body. In the beginning it was mostly only the right side, and mostly the leg down to the feet. Strong pulsing and tingling. There was always energy in the forehead, later the vibrations spread to the entire scalp and also down the back. Still later the vibrations became much finer frequency and were evenly moving across right and left body. Often hands and feet would be painfully vibrating. Thumbs and fingers would convulse and fine lines of energy would move down lengths of forearms and fingers.

--A feeling that the energy was being pushed up from the solar plexus up behind the sternum and getting constricted in the throat, forehead and sclap. A vibrating anxiety energy locked in base of throat and upper chest under the collar bone.

--Sharp pinpricks on hands, feet and head. Sensation of insects crawling on skin on arms and legs.

--Ratchet effect when noting (as you call it in your book).

--Chronic tensions, mostly in jaw and on right side of trunk. With attention they'd pulse and breakup, but would re-appear quickly. Midway through the retreat they all cleared out but returned at the end with a vengeance.

--A few times when walking, I started to note the intention to lift/move/drop and my body suddenly became paralyzed for a few minutes. Sometimes when walking would feel like I was drunk and disoriented.

--Waking up in the night and automatically noting the individual movements of body as I shifted position, but it was as if it were not my body and I was watching a body move and a mind noting and observing it.

--Pleasant tingling down the back or through the arms and legs, usually brought on by memories of emotional powerfully scenes from books or movies that were running in the background of my mind.

--Chills, usually when concentrating on mosquito bites.

--For the second half of the retreat, whenever walking I would feel like I was floating and being suspended by my head and back, with feet moving as if propelled by a smooth machine. Sitting in good posture was effortless. At some point all the chronic tensions had been cleared out, only to return at the end with a vengeance.

--Brief vision of my right foot afflicted by various gross diseases.

--Lots of involuntary convulsions that released tension. This happened in pretty much every single sitting for the entire retreat. There were different patterns depending on what I was attending to.

Psychological/emotional stuff:
Fear that I was damaging myself physically and mentally. I grew up with OCD and some of those fear and thought patterns returned. I resorted to avoidance of the issues and rapid noting. Eventually these fears went away and I reached a good state of (somewhat guarded) calm and relaxation. Toward the end of the retreat it all went to hell, though. Fear returned big time, as did all the chronic tensions plus new ones. Energy pushing up into my head and vibrating it wildly. One episode of paranoia. Lots of restlessness and aversion to practice. When sitting I'd want to get the hell up and out of there immediately. I always stuck it out but was unable to close my eyes because some strong energy and vibration in the forehead and behind the eyes made them flicker painfully. "Can't move forward, can't move backward, can't stay still" was a recurring theme. I felt like I was going bonkers.


After I left the retreat I was a mess. I spent two months in Penang and later Chiang Mai trying to recuperate. Even though I didn't want to practice anymore my mind still kept noting automatically for weeks. I felt that I had damaged myself and had committed a terrible mistake and that I'd been too forceful and fearful in my practice and that this had messed me up. I had some hope that maybe it was just re-observation but at the time I didn't think so. I avoided practice and spiritual things for a while and was just a backpacker. Eventually I did retreats again but with organizations that were the opposite of Mahasi in style.

Well, it's two years later now. I still have a lot of kriyas that have evolved into different unusual patterns as time went on. I still have energy surges and vibrations all over. And unpleasant energetic pressures mostly in the forehead, sinus areas, throat, heart region. There are a lot of chronic tensions, mostly on the right side of the body. Vibrating anxiety lodged in throat and collarbone area and in the back near the right rear shoulder-blade.

My question is this: do you think I got into the dukkha nanas during my retreat? Or is it possible that I was just too forceful and messed things up? For example I stopped the rapid noting because I noticed every time I made a note there was an energy pulse that shot up from my solar plexus area to my throat or forehead, often it was uncomfortable. Even when I stopped rapid noting it would still happen at the same rhythm.

I have applied to do the 2nd month of the 2-month retreat at IMS. Yesterday one of the teachers called to talk to me about it. I'd told her all the stuff that's been going on and she said it was a Kundalini imbalance. She said for people like myself with traumatic backgrounds this can happen, because of energy blockages. She was concerned that if I came into the charged retreat environment and did a lot of sitting and walking that the there was a danger of an overload. She said probably what would happen is that they might ask me to sit only once a day, work two yogi jobs, and walk in the woods a lot, maybe do some reading. They would not want me sitting and walking and getting concentrated, and would have me do open, choiceless awareness or some sort of eyes-open practice. Her feeling was that maybe an intense retreat was not what I should be doing, and that maybe I should focus on getting stronger in other ways - parami, exercise, grounding myself, friendships. She said from talking with me that she felt I've learned a lot and have some wisdom and that was the only reason why she'd consider letting me do the retreat, but she had reservations. Her concern was that some yogis come and try and forcefully push their way through this. Some of them lose touch with reality or have to leave early. She did not want me coming with that kind of agenda. I admitted that there was I had some hope and expectation of my energy coming to balance in the retreat. She told me to think it all over and that she will call me Thursday (tomorrow) to see what my decision is.

Dan, do you agree with her assessment? I've talked with other teachers about this since MBMC and recently started reading stuff online about Kundalini, and the consensus does seem to be to back off of the spiritual stuff and focus on grounding. I've been doing that but also have been doing a Christian mantra meditation 1-3 hours a day and feel it helps, particularly when I focus on surrender rather than attaining anything. It reduces anxiety and the energy pressures break up some, sometimes becoming pleasurable. The IMS teacher however said they definitely would not want me doing mantra, and that strong concentration and opening can be dangerous for me at this time.

....

Much appreciation for all you've done.

.david


After reading this email Dan suggested we talk by phone. We had a long conversation that was very helpful for me. Because others may find it useful, here's a summary of what Dan and I discussed in our phone conversation (see also A Conversation about Getting to Equanimity, which Dan created after our talk and which will be helpful for anyone who feels they are in a situation similar to mine):

Dan said I clearly had hit Re-observation, and due to not knowing what to do I ended up cooking myself. He said yogis have left retreat in Re-observation, called him, got the instructions on what to do, went back into retreat and made it past that stage. I expressed doubts that I'd crossed the A&P and Dan explained that it doesn't always show up as a distinct stage. He said what I should have been doing was easing up on the effort and broadening my attention once I'd hit the Dark Night.

Unfortunately I never eased up the entire time I was there. This was in part due to my gung-ho-ness and expectations, and partly due to the fact that the Sayadaw was constantly urging me to strive on and keep pouring on the effort, to not miss a single mind moment. He did not want me broadening attention but instructed me to keep on noting the few specific objects he'd designated (air element of breath and walking, for example, during the sitting and walking sessions). He never said anything about the stages of insight -- never said which one he thought I was in, and what I should be doing to adjust to that stage.

In addition, the Sayadaw and I had massive communication problems and were constantly misunderstanding each other. One particularly bad case of this led to me spending weeks paying attention only to unpleasant sensations in the body during all sitting meditations, scanning for each and every bit of unpleasantness from head to feet. As time went on I became more and more convinced that this was not actually what he wanted me to do, but it took several communication attempts to finally get this cleared up. After that I was constantly nagged by doubt as to whether I was correctly understanding his instructions, and whether he had correctly understood my report of experiences.

Dan reminded me that excessive focus on sensations of only one feeling tone (positive, negative, or neutral) was bad news. Unfortunately, at the beginning of the retreat I'd made a formal determination to do everything the Sayadaw instructed me to do to the best of my ability, and thus I'd kept up the super-efforting and the unpleasant-sensation-watching. I've since realized that formal resolutions are good, but I need to be more flexible when circumstances require it.

Dan asked me if I was sure that I didn't get into Equanimity, explaining that formations sometimes show up in a not-so-obvious way. I said I was pretty sure I didn't...but having reflected on it some more and done a bit of reading up on the stage, I am considering that perhaps I did and then fell back.

Some advice he gave me:

- My enlightenment factors were/are out of balance. I am high in mindfulness, energy, and investigation but low in positive raptures, tranquility, and equanimity. Also was lacking in faith and acceptance. I have the first three vipassana jhanas down and now need to learn how to do the fourth.

- Don't indulge in drama.

- Don't have doubts about my ability to get Stream Entry and higher just because I have had trauma in my past, and have a history of mental illness. We all have had trauma. Plenty of people with past trauma, dysfunctional parents, and mental problems requiring medication have gotten highly enlightened. Doubt is not a problem, it comes and goes and isn't you.

- I told Dan I didn't tell IMS that my goal on retreat was Stream Entry, because at the moment even the thought of "going for Stream Entry" creates an adverse reaction in my body. He said "you don't go for Stream Entry. You accept into Stream Entry."

- Worry about the total self-acceptance of all of oneself later. At Anagami there'll be plenty of time for that. For Stream Entry you just need to be totally accepting of everything for three moments.

- He gave me some specific insight practice instructions for moving into Equanimity and Stream Entry. They can be found in the A Conversation about Getting to Equanimity thread.

Finally, Dan told me that I have to realize that I can't do this alone, that enlightenment is a team sport, and I need to ask for help when I need it. This is not something I've typically been good at, but I understand now that it's extremely necessary. Dan urged me to get on DhO and get help. So here I am.

Please feel free to share any interpretations, advice, or thoughts!

I do have two specific questions:

1. How can I get through the Dark Night to Equanimity and beyond?

Some challenges I'm dealing with at the moment:
Many of the unpleasant raptures that emerged during retreat have flared up big time starting a year ago...I've been stressed and anxious all year and it's taking its toll...I'm socially isolated living at my mom's house in Pennsylvania, although I go to NYC when I can to have contact with friends...I've had a worsening problem of pain and cramping in my hands/wrists/forearms that started 7 months ago that I'm finally seeking different kinds of medical treatment for. It makes any sustained activity using the hands tricky, including computer use, driving, lifting...pretty much anything that involves prolonged exertion of the hands.

On the bright side I am not working, so I have lots of time and space to work this stuff out. Although I’m not necessarily feeling very positive about the future, I'm not depressed and I have plenty of energy. I plan to go to an anxiety CBT center to get counseling. I also found a good holistic primary care doctor who is going to have my neurotransmitter levels measured so that I can start a program of natural supplements to balance out my system. I am already taking B-complex, Holy Basil and magnesium and these have helped a lot. Also trying Bach Flower Remedies...I've no idea if they're working or not. I exercise regularly (although I've had to stop temporarily due to injuries sustained last week). I'm going to see a bodyworker to help with my hands and the chronic muscle tensions that have been spreading and painfully intensifying. I might see an acupuncturist to help with the energy/vibrational imbalances, although I've heard that's risky?

In terms of practice, I am doing the insight practice that Dan suggested. Plus still doing mantra meditation. Generally focusing on cultivating relaxation, acceptance, and faith.

Any other suggestions?

2. Should I do the 1-month IMS retreat on Oct. 24th given that I'm already in an anxious, kundalini-charged state and possibly won't be permitted to do much formal meditation, and in particular no concentration practice? IMS has reservations, Dan wasn't sure if it is a good idea, and I myself am having doubts. But if I do decide to go, I have a prescription for Chlonazepam in case I need it during the retreat. It's a medication I used to take many years ago that reduces anxiety.

Okay, well if any of you have made it to the end of this whale of a post, my thanks and good wishes to you. I look forward to any thoughts or suggestions you may wish to share regarding anything I’ve written.

.david
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tarin greco, modified 14 Years ago at 10/10/09 9:03 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/10/09 8:51 AM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
hi david,

here are my pro tips, custom writen for you:

i think you should chill out and start chasing, however gently or fervently you want to do it, positive pleasant sensations for a while. take what you know and use it to get into soft raptures and tranquility, and calmness, and all that other good stuff. ride the vibrations as they pop and fizz and bubble and entrance, and all that. sit leaning against a wall, or reclining in a chair with your legs out, whatever. take aimless walks and look around. if staring at green trees or blue skies or clear water or a pretty screen-saver makes you happy and feel relaxed, remember to do that occasionally. avoid moralising about what you should or shouldn't be doing re practice. heck, if you're taking clonazepam sometimes anyway, maybe you should smoke some weed instead, or plunge into the anxiety you're trying to moderate by noting it with sincerity and enthusiasm (or do both, moderate and note). my point is, there is an amazing range of things you're not supposed to be able to do and still get enlightened, like be a reckless hedonist, or an obsessive super-serious grim want-it-or-die yogi, and my experience has shown that not only is enlightenment still possible that way, its actually quite a ride (ive been both of those things). point is, don't worry about what you should and shouldn't be doing. sounds, from your report, like you've already put a lot of energy into that stuff, and most of the neural architecture (or whatever it is that enables path moment) is probably there already. just balance it out by seeing the sense - or at least the absurd necessity - of getting this done, which will necessarily bring a more joyful (and good-humoured) attitude to the path.

figure out how to like doing what you're doing, even if it means admitting to yourself you kinda like being a fucked-up dark night yogi (its an acquired taste), and then when you're ready, go back on retreat and just do it.

bottom line: add enjoying yourself into the mix. this is your only opportunity to experience (and enjoy) this moment of being alive. dont miss it! but if you do, hey here's the opportunity again.

tarin

ps i dont necessarily agree with that teacher at ims, by the way, that you should only stick to light, open-awareness stuff as your core practice. i think sit.walk.sit.walk can be just as useful to tightly wound up people as long as they hit it with everything they've got and dont look back. when you've got what you've got to do figured out, ignore the naysayers.
Chuck Kasmire, modified 14 Years ago at 10/10/09 10:36 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/10/09 10:36 AM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

Posts: 560 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
the prisoner greco:
i think you should chill out and start chasing, however gently or fervently you want to do it, positive pleasant sensations for a while. take what you know and use it to get into soft raptures and tranquility, and calmness, and all that other good stuff. ride the vibrations as they pop and fizz and bubble and entrance, and all that.


I second Tarins advice. Not sure about the weed, I think you could do it with a little jhana. Which gets to my point: paying attention to sensations one by one as they occur does not mean that you have to pay attention to what ever ugly crap comes up. If you look at the Sutta where Sariputta is doing this stuff (MN 111), he is doing it through the Jhanas. Here is how he starts out:

"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another....”

Actually even when we are feeling pain in the body there are also pleasant sensations there as well. We need to learn to use concentration and discernment to tune into those. The body is something like a radio that is picking up all kinds of frequencies at the same time. You can choose to listen all day to (name the worst kind of music you can think of) or you can tune into (name what you like to listen to). The key is to keep the radio on (stay in the body with bare sensations). Choose whatever channel you like. For example, if you relax and pay close attention to the broad energetic qualities of the pain that you feel in your arms, you may notice that there are subtle pleasant qualities there as well. If you incline the mind toward those more pleasant aspects, you will be more and more aware of them. You could then spread those pleasant qualities through out the body – using directed awareness – and thus use the pain in your arms to enter the first jhana.

I don't want to imply here that you can go through this in some continuous state of bliss. Not the case. But you need to learn that you can be proactive in this.

From an energetic standpoint – you dumped tons of repressed, buried crap during your retreat – that's clear from your descriptions. That's the positive side. Things have been really opened up. As that stuff gets released it brings up all the agitation, emotional storms, pain, etc. that you are experiencing. It will run its course. Exercise is good. Tai chi might help.

Relax, give your mind a little space to let go...

-Chuck
J Adam G, modified 14 Years ago at 10/10/09 9:32 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/10/09 9:17 PM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

Posts: 286 Join Date: 9/15/09 Recent Posts
I second the recommendation for jhana over weed. Marijuana contains not only the well-known THC, but many other related chemicals. Most probably don't contribute significantly to the effects on the bodymind, but there is one, Cannabidiol (abbreviated CBD) that does. The lower the ratio of THC to CBD, the less anxiety a particular strain of marijuana produces. So, unless you specifically find a strain that has a lot of calming CBD to modulate the anxiety-producing effects of THC, you may end up stuck in dukkhaville. Though that doesn't mean you can't try it out if you think it might help. I wouldn't recommend using the Klonopin with weed to try and reduce the anxiety. Don't screw with two neurotransmission systems at once if there's a better alternative, and there is: jhana!

If you have strong concentration, which you do, please try some jhana. You're frying yourself by having such a miserable experience with meditation. If the IMS people insist on dry-insight practices, whether they're broad and eyes-open or intense noting-based stuff, then there are probably better options for places to go on retreat. Maybe you can go on a concentration retreat and work specifically on the jhanas? Shaila Catherine, who wrote one of the best jhana books out there (Focused and Fearless), has a retreat center somewhere in the US. Here's a link to her website. Maybe you would consider going there. It's been a few months since I read her book, but she definitely has an advanced appreciation of the relationship between insight and jhana, and the need for balance of the factors of enlightenment. If you can do a retreat where you work on tranquility, positive rapture, and equanimity without giving up your strong concentration, you would probably have a much easier time with the rest of the path. Hell, it might benefit you on all subsequent paths!

Have you looked into any of Shinzen Young's stuff? You could start doing the Focus on the Positive and/or Focus on Rest. There are PDF files available for free on the internet that describe the basics of the practice. They're related to jhana practice, but they seem to be doable with less concentration. If you find that the high concentration necessary for hard jhana states triggers your dark night stuff, then you might benefit from the looser style of Young's meditations.

As usual, a lot of this is speculation and if someone more experienced than myself directly contravenes any of it, you'd probably be better off following their advice rather than mine. The first paragraph is the only one that would be defended if disagreed with.

EDIT: How could I forget? Brahma viharas! You would probably derive immense benefits from practice with the brahma viharas, if you aren't already doing them. While it seems obvious to suggest the equanimity practice, I would actually suggest that you focus on all 4 of them. Or perhaps you could do a combined practice. Maybe something like this: with one in-out breath cycle, you focus on metta for yourself. Then next cycle, someone you love, then a neutral person, then a disliked person, then all humans, then all sentient beings. Then you do the same set of cycles for karuna, mudita, and upekkha. Or do a set of 4 brahma viharas for yourself in 4 breath cycles, then the 4 BVs for a person you like, etc. Whatever works for you. You seem to have great moment-to-moment concentration, so I doubt all the moving from feeling to feeling in a meditation like this would be difficult for you.
David A, modified 14 Years ago at 10/11/09 2:36 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/11/09 2:36 PM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

Posts: 27 Join Date: 10/10/09 Recent Posts
Thanks so much for the helpful advice and support, guys.

Tarin - I'll do the chilling and chasing you suggest. Regarding weed, it's never really been my thing, but your point is well taken -- put aside should's and shouldn'ts and find positive feeling and don't be concerned with how conventionally spiritual the source is. I definitely do need to up my enjoyment. While I was backpacking I was often with friends, healthy, and having the time of my life. Dark Night stuff rarely came up, and when it did it was easier to deal with. Now that I'm more or less alone, freaked about my hands and possible relapse into old anxiety patterns, the DN negative stuff is kicking my ass. My mind has gotten tighter and more negative. I've not started taking the Chlonazepam yet but maybe I will, if only to get my mind to loosen up some.

Chuck - thanks for the jhana tip and the reminder that I don't have to pay attention to the ugly crap when pursuing insight. The kind of attention I've been paying to it recently seems to feed the negativity as opposed to generate insight or equanimity. There is this pervading sense of danger, that I have to do something about the various negative things happening (particularly physical problems) or there will be badness to follow, and this keeps me hooked into the content. I've tried the radio-tuning to pleasant before and it usually gets derailed by the thought that I've got to attend to the unpleasant because it's the responsible thing to do...to think and worry about it and prevent something bad from happening. I'll work on giving myself more space, as you suggest. If I can summon the balance of mind maybe on occasion I'll even try the pleasure from pain method you outlined.

J Adam G - Thanks a lot for those links and resources, and reminder about Brahma Viharas. I'll check out Shaila's website and Shinzen Young's stuff. As for the IMS retreat, trading it for another might be a good idea.

Regarding concentration and jhana: it's strange, I can stay on a meditation object fairly easily so in that respect my concentration is decent, but absorption very rarely happens. I'm not able to reliably call up the piti+sukha and/or letting-go that leads to jhana. A jhana-practicing friend of mine once told me he can't keep his mind consistently on the meditation object for very long without slips, certainly not for a full hour, and yet he enters jhana. This makes me think I've put too much emphasis on keeping the object in focus and not enough on other factors.
Anyone have tips? I'll re-read the samatha sections in MTCB too.
I would have loved to have had jhanas under my belt before attempting Stream Entry, but I thought I didn't have the knack for it, and that it'd be more cost efficient to learn them after Path. I'm definitely reconsidering that notion now.
J Adam G, modified 14 Years ago at 10/12/09 3:18 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/12/09 3:18 PM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

Posts: 286 Join Date: 9/15/09 Recent Posts
In terms of tips for jhana, you can try looking at other meditation books in addition to MCTB. Jhana is jhana and some methods will tend to put you in harder jhana states than others, but if you can just get there, you'll be in good shape to look at ways of solidifying/loosening the jhana's "hardness."

MCTB is wonderful, but the instructions on jhana are so succinct that they can seem terse to the point of omitting useful information, such as tips and tricks for HOW to get the mind to stay with the breath for 10 seconds (then a minute then 10 minutes then an hour etc.) or the like. The kasina instructions in the section on siddhis certainly contain the core of what kasina concentration is about in a single sentence, but they don't provide tips and tricks. I doubt this was accidental because MCTB is not supposed to be a 2,000-page tome on every detail about meditation, but when you're first learning about something, it helps to find more detailed resources. Focused and Fearless is a great example, and if you can purchase the book (no need to get it new if you can find a used copy online) or get it for free for a few weeks on Interlibrary Loan, you'll be in good shape. Similarly wonderful choices include Beyond Mindfulness in Plain English, and Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond. All of these you can get from Amazon, or better yet, on ILL. If you can find a library near you with free or very low-cost ILL, you'll be in really good shape to learn about anything you want to, including meditation of any type from any tradition.

There are other options if that doesn't work for you. Ajahn Brahmavamso has a lot of good stuff about jhana in his section at What Buddha Taught. His stuff is on the left, about 1/4 of the way down the page. You could just search that page for "jhana" and find resources by other authors too. Lastly, Leigh Brasington's jhana page is really really really good. If you have no way of getting any of the above mentioned books, you can still probably find your way to jhana just from the resources of MCTB, those two websites, and help from people here at DhO.
David A, modified 14 Years ago at 10/12/09 11:50 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/12/09 11:50 PM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

Posts: 27 Join Date: 10/10/09 Recent Posts
Thanks J Adam G! These books are all new to me. (I was pleasantly surprised to see there's a "sequel" to Mindfuless In Plain English, one of the first Buddhist meditation books I ever read). I've found Ajahn Brahm's book in the catalog of a local library, I'll pick it up tomorrow.

Leigh B is indeed the man. I sat with him for only a short weekend in New York but he really made an impression on me - so humble and down-to-earth and yet so enthusiastic and knowledgeable. I will review his stuff.

Much appreciation,

.david
David A, modified 14 Years ago at 10/19/09 12:48 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/19/09 12:48 AM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

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the prisoner greco:

figure out how to like doing what you're doing, even if it means admitting to yourself you kinda like being a fucked-up dark night yogi (its an acquired taste),


Tarin, could you say more about this? I saw you wrote in another thread:

the prisoner greco:

the kind of peace that is on offer in the dark night is an acquired taste and takes some time getting used to.


I'm curious about this acquired taste. I don't want to be in the Dark Night any longer than I have to, but as long as I'm here, finding something to enjoy or appreciate about it sounds very appealing.

There are a few things that I've come to appreciate about a painful Dark Night: how it can help clear out certain practice- and view-related imbalances, how the insistent suffering can create compassion and strong motivation to practice -- but it sounds like you're talking about something that is actually immediately enjoyable, not just beneficial in the long-term.

.david
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tarin greco, modified 14 Years ago at 10/19/09 3:36 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/19/09 10:08 AM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

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hi david,

David A:
the prisoner greco:

figure out how to like doing what you're doing, even if it means admitting to yourself you kinda like being a fucked-up dark night yogi (its an acquired taste),


Tarin, could you say more about this? I saw you wrote in another thread:

the prisoner greco:

the kind of peace that is on offer in the dark night is an acquired taste and takes some time getting used to.


I'm curious about this acquired taste. I don't want to be in the Dark Night any longer than I have to, but as long as I'm here, finding something to enjoy or appreciate about it sounds very appealing.

There are a few things that I've come to appreciate about a painful Dark Night: how it can help clear out certain practice- and view-related imbalances, how the insistent suffering can create compassion and strong motivation to practice -- but it sounds like you're talking about something that is actually immediately enjoyable, not just beneficial in the long-term.

.david


why yes i am (talking about something that is immediately enjoyable). what i am mostly talking about is the kind of vibrations that being in the dark night presents - the jarring, disharmonic, reality-creasing/shuffling/tearing forces which arent so bad when you see them directly, and are actually kind of pleasant when you attend to them in an absent-minded way. learn how to do both.

the former you do by being highly attuned and attentive to those sensations/vibrations, balancing effort and tranquility, and doing it successfully may require you learn a bit about how to get into doing the latter.

the latter (attending to the mind-ripping, continuity-disturbing vibrations) you do by relaxing into them, letting your attention expand into the periphery, and watching how the vibrations affect 'your mind' and sense of awakeness/consciousness. when i say 'periphery', i dont just mean the periphery (outer boundary) of a stable, cohesive field of experience. obviously, that too, but what i also mean is periphery (outer boundary) of any sense experience within that field. for example (and example only), if you experience an unsettling, thumping kind of pulse in your solar plexus, or chest, or throat, attend to it not just by looking directly at it but also by attending to and being sensitive to whats going on around it (even if no clear or obvious sensations present). the border between sensation/vibration and nothing/background is where you want to be looking - tune in to where that shift or bleed-through happens, as that is one of the gifts of the dark night, and once you're sufficiently tuned in (which can happen very quickly), that will set your mind at ease.

helpful?

tarin
David A, modified 14 Years ago at 10/19/09 1:39 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 10/19/09 1:39 PM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

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Thanks Tarin, this is very interesting. I will try it out.
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chamaeleon yogi, modified 14 Years ago at 2/4/10 1:07 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 2/4/10 12:48 AM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

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What you wrote sounds somehow familiar to me, but I ran away after 7 weeks in retreat.

Using SSRI type antidepressants (citalopram) prevented me from screwing up completely, I'd have to use a chemical approach anyway, but that might have been even less healthy or controllable. Discontinuing SSRI in small steps enables me to digest issues one by one rather than being run down by a train. This goes on for two years now. Maybe that's just an advice for the utterly desparate (well, the utterly desperate might think about neuroleptic medication or suicide I guess).

Working with cows in the mountains and a great deal of pure relaxation technique provided even enjoyable time, but of course no permanent progress. Slowly I could come back to meditation and had some more intense practice recently without going nuts, seems I'm on the track again, though still hooked on SSRI and stuck in equanimity at best, with symptoms prevailing.

And even more recently I got advice to try to balance the practice towards more tranquility/concentration. The diagnosis was too much effort combined with too much shifting awareness of too many things. I should try become concentrated not by focusing using force but like doing when falling asleep, balancing on the brink of passing out, using the breath as an indicator with the goal to make it subtle. That seems to improve matters and coincides with my observation that symptoms always used to recede in the last conscious moments before falling asleep when I simply went to bed.

good luck.
David A, modified 14 Years ago at 2/9/10 11:26 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 2/9/10 11:26 PM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

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chamaeleon yogi:
What you wrote sounds somehow familiar to me, but I ran away after 7 weeks in retreat.


Hi chamaeleon yogi, thanks for sharing your experience and info about what has helped you, I really appreciate it!

chamaeleon yogi:

Using SSRI type antidepressants (citalopram) prevented me from screwing up completely, I'd have to use a chemical approach anyway, but that might have been even less healthy or controllable. Discontinuing SSRI in small steps enables me to digest issues one by one rather than being run down by a train. This goes on for two years now. Maybe that's just an advice for the utterly desparate (well, the utterly desperate might think about neuroleptic medication or suicide I guess).


Years ago I also was on SSRIs or SNRIs. I had been on them for a long time, and they helped me quite a lot. They gave me enough of a respite to recover and grow in the ways that I needed to. Before that I was getting regularly getting run down by trains, as you aptly put it. If I had been on them at MBMC I'm sure things would have gone better.

During this last year I've contemplated going back on medication but haven't as of yet. My doctor suggested getting my neurotransmitter levels measured to see what deficiencies there were, if any. The tests results showed low serotonin and norepinephrine, and I started on a program of supplements tailored for my levels -- taking capsules with mixes of amino acid precursors for those neurotransmitters to boost them up. They seem to be helping. I'm doing a lot better mentally and emotionally than I was months before and I think it is in part due to that stuff.

This is the company, in case you're ever interested: https://www.neurorelief.com/. (Note that a healthcare provider has to do the actual ordering of the stuff) They provide the neurotransmitter testing as well as the supplements protocol, which you can choose to take or not. Even just the test can be useful, as it helps when choosing a prescription med.

As for whether SSRIs are only for the "utterly desperate", I definitely don't think so. I know a lot of people who take them (and none of them are retreat refugeesemoticon ). It seems to be extremely common these days. I originally weaned myself off them in part because I knew that one day I would leave my job and go abroad and I didn't want to have that financial burden. But these days Walmart sells the generic SSRIs super-cheap, and you don't need to regularly see a psychiatrist anymore for a prescription, because so many primary care doctors are comfortable doing that now.

I'd been resisting going back on them partially out of stoic pride, because I'd fought so hard to get off them and I thought I'd never need to go back, but thankfully I've gained some humility and sense since then. I'm open to taking them again if I feel the situation warrants it.

If anyone else out there is getting clobbered by Dark Night or rapture/kundalini stuff, I say definitely consider it an option. There are some kundalini web sites that strongly warn against medications like anti-depressants, but I asked a kundalini expert via email and he said they can be judiciously used and that they won't interfere with the process. He'd once run a clinic in Swami Muktananda's ashram in India, and Swami Muktananda had been very clear about that as well.

In my phone call with Dan Ingram he made a point of telling me about people he knows who've taken as many or far more meds than I have, and those folks have all since attained anagami stage or higher. So certainly it's no impediment to insight.

chamaeleon yogi:

Working with cows in the mountains and a great deal of pure relaxation technique provided even enjoyable time, but of course no permanent progress. Slowly I could come back to meditation and had some more intense practice recently without going nuts, seems I'm on the track again, though still hooked on SSRI and stuck in equanimity at best, with symptoms prevailing.


Cows in the mountains in itself sounds relaxing, I feel more peaceful just thinking about it.
It took me a long time to get back to intensive practice, too. When I entered MBMC I had strong faith in the path and my ability to walk it. When I left MBMC I felt shell-shocked and broken, and my faith was in tatters. My faith has not fully recovered yet, even years later, but it's a lot better than it was during those dark months after the retreat.

Good for you for getting back on track again. I look forward to the day when I, too, am "stuck" in equanimity! I have no real clue where I am at the moment. I can only hope that I'm as far as Re-Observation, with Equanimity on the horizon.

chamaeleon yogi:

And even more recently I got advice to try to balance the practice towards more tranquility/concentration. The diagnosis was too much effort combined with too much shifting awareness of too many things. I should try become concentrated not by focusing using force but like doing when falling asleep, balancing on the brink of passing out, using the breath as an indicator with the goal to make it subtle. That seems to improve matters and coincides with my observation that symptoms always used to recede in the last conscious moments before falling asleep when I simply went to bed.


That's very interesting. I think I might be in a similar boat. What was meant exactly by "too much shifting awareness of too many things"?

I like the falling asleep analogy. I have a tendency to use force and control, too. Some of my more dramatic meditation experiences happened when I was lying in bed to go to sleep, or when I was in half-sleep waking up in the morning.

chamaeleon yogi:

good luck.


You too, c. yogi. Hope you are swimming in formations soon, and then swiftly on through the Door.
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Daniel Johnson, modified 14 Years ago at 2/13/10 3:16 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 2/13/10 3:16 AM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

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I just wanted to say that I found your post very helpful. I could relate to a lot of what you're saying, and I think I also fall on the said of over-striving yogi more often than lazy yogi.

Thanks for sharing.

- Daniel
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chamaeleon yogi, modified 14 Years ago at 2/15/10 2:18 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 2/15/10 2:18 AM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

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What was meant exactly by "too much shifting awareness of too many things"?

Being very loose with sticking to a selected primary object, as opposed to fix attention there. Some object gets predominant, e.g. a thought, I observe it seemingly with detachment, in the middle of the thought an emotion gets predominant, I observe that, leaving the thought, 2 seconds later another thought gets predominant, the focus of awareness shifts again and so on.

Perceptions seemed clear but created a rather disconcerting state of mind with a tendency towards restlessness.
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chamaeleon yogi, modified 13 Years ago at 7/18/10 1:09 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/18/10 1:04 PM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

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An update: seems I passed another fruition (again?) since then if I am no totally mistaken (sort of stoic hardly spectacular state of mind in retreat for days after clear climbing up the stages, then somewhere out of nothing a brief unclear moment, that I got aware of only afterward, though no black-out or so, followed by a wave of bliss, not more than 7 seconds, which repeated soon 2 or 3 times, each shorter than the previous one, then nothing special again, after a few days everyhing as it was, minus a grey veil covering everything). Call it whatever you want, I think that was a cycle, unclear as it was, and no idea about the stage it belonged to. Dont feel much different though, even much later.

However, it didnt change much of the symptoms I complained about. Though everything seems lighter in a way I could not reduce citalopram below 15mg/day. I even tried to reduce during retreat, just to find out, how it works. It seems I could go lower than it would have worked out out of retreat. I had to go up again afterward.

I took a break of a feew weeks and resumed a bit of meditation later, seems psychologically interesting, allowing perspectives on "myself" aka the mental processes during meditation, getting thinner and more "transparent" as it seems. Now I just go on with "real life" and see where I am in 5 to 10 years or so.

cheers, stefan
This Good Self, modified 13 Years ago at 7/19/10 12:06 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/18/10 9:58 PM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

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Crikey, this website is sounding more like a men's-only depression forum every day. IMO, meditation practices (insight or concentration) cannot be successfully used as a way of escaping an unsuccessful life*. It reminds me of the kids at school who were bad a sport and so 'escaped' to the library, rationalizing that 'sport is for meat heads, I'm better than that!', the same way that 'spiritual' people rationalize that 'desire is the cause of all suffering', because they haven't found a way to satisfy those desires the way normal people do. Every time I read a thread on here I'm always reminded of Emmerson: "the first requisite is to be a good animal, and this is the first requisite for every one. A course of life which sacrifices the animal, though it may be defensible under special conditions is not defensible as a general policy." The library does not hold the answers. It's a form of escapism.

EDIT - *by unsuccessful I'm mainly referring to poor self-esteem and confidence and poor ability to love and be loved. The easiest way to know if you if you have or lack these qualities is by the way you interact at a fun social gathering or party. If you get stuck in the corner talking to the boring guy about physics or religion, or if you just don't feel like you 'fit in', something ain't right.

There's something very wrong with the notion of a prozac-popping anagami.

What about embracing your humanness and loving that as a starting point? Loving your flesh and blood body, your unrelenting desires, your quirks, your bad habits, your unloving thoughts, your filth? There's wisdom in the left hand path.
David A, modified 13 Years ago at 7/18/10 11:31 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/18/10 11:31 PM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

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chamaeleon yogi:
An update: seems I passed another fruition (again?) since then if I am no totally mistaken (sort of stoic hardly spectacular state of mind in retreat for days after clear climbing up the stages, then somewhere out of nothing a brief unclear moment, that I got aware of only afterward, though no black-out or so, followed by a wave of bliss, not more than 7 seconds, which repeated soon 2 or 3 times, each shorter than the previous one, then nothing special again, after a few days everyhing as it was, minus a grey veil covering everything). Call it whatever you want, I think that was a cycle, unclear as it was, and no idea about the stage it belonged to. Dont feel much different though, even much later.

However, it didnt change much of the symptoms I complained about. Though everything seems lighter in a way I could not reduce citalopram below 15mg/day. I even tried to reduce during retreat, just to find out, how it works. It seems I could go lower than it would have worked out out of retreat. I had to go up again afterward.

I took a break of a feew weeks and resumed a bit of meditation later, seems psychologically interesting, allowing perspectives on "myself" aka the mental processes during meditation, getting thinner and more "transparent" as it seems. Now I just go on with "real life" and see where I am in 5 to 10 years or so.

cheers, stefan


Wow congrats Stefan, if in fact you got fruition. Your persistence seems to be paying off. I hope your new level of insight continues to gain momentum.

As for myself, I'm doing a lot better. Last year I'd been hit by multiple heavy stuff and was in a high stress situation and felt overwhelmed, but I've since been able to make progress on the various fronts and am much more balanced now. Still have symptoms, but less. It's been a significant learning and growing experience, albeit a very unpleasant one.

I've not yet taken any medication, although I am keeping that option open. Even though I'm feeling better it's been a long time going at this and I could use a break mentally and physically.
I have a friend who was also messed up a bit by a 3-month Mahasi retreat he did in Nepal, plus some other stuff that happened afterward. He recently started taking Lexapro and he says he feels much improved, and as an outside observer I can really see the difference in his well-being. He has prior jhana experience and tells me now he gets piti in his body regularly without even meditating.
So clearly SSRIs do seem like they can be a help with this kind of stuff.
David A, modified 13 Years ago at 7/19/10 12:22 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/19/10 12:20 AM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

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C C C:
Crikey, this website is sounding more like a men's-only depression forum every day. IMO, meditation practices (insight or concentration) cannot be successfully used as a way of escaping an unsuccessful life*. It reminds of the kids at school who were bad a sport and so 'escaped' to the library, rationalizing that 'sport is for meat heads, I'm better than that!', the same way that 'spiritual' people rationalize that 'desire is the cause of all suffering', because they haven't found a way to satisfy those desires the way normal people do. Every time I read a thread on here I'm always reminded of Emmerson: "the first requisite is to be a good animal, and this is the first requisite for every one. A course of life which sacrifices the animal, though it may be defensible under special conditions is not defensible as a general policy." The library does not hold the answers. It's a form of escapism.

EDIT - *by unsuccessful I'm mainly referring to poor self-esteem and confidence and poor ability to love and be loved. The easiest way to know if you if you have or lack these qualities is by the way you interact at a fun social gathering or party. If you get stuck in the corner talking to the boring guy about physics or religion, or if you just don't feel like you 'fit in', something ain't right.


Hi CCC, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, and I don't disagree with your point that spirituality shouldn't be used as an escape, but I don't see the applicability of your post here. No one in this thread has advocated escapism. In the post that you responded to someone is stating that they might have attained fruition, and is playing around to see how his mental environment has changed, and is going to see how his new insights play out in "real life." And in the meantime he's continuing to take medication that helps him, which shows practical understanding of what his meditation has and hasn't been able affect. Which part of this are you objecting to?

Incidentally, I don't find a fun party to be a particularly accurate test of the qualities you mentioned. I've known many scintillating party animals who were sorely lacking in self-esteem and riddled with chronic love issues. (Also, what do you have against physics and religion? emoticon)

And while I don't have any argument with your definition of "successful", I think if you reflect you'll find this is a much higher bar than you realized. I'd be surprised if there were anyone on this forum who hasn't had to grapple with self-esteem or confidence issues, or have not in some way experienced neurotic quirks big and small in how they love and receive love, or haven't felt they didn't fit in at a social gathering -- so I wonder just how many "successful" people there are in the world by your definition. You might want to reflect on your Emerson quote here.

Anyway, if in fact you are genuinely bothered by having to read about other peoples' depression and problems, you might consider not reading posts in the subcategory "Dealing with the Dark Night"! ;)
As for the "men's-only forum" part, don't have a suggestion for you. emoticon
David A, modified 13 Years ago at 7/19/10 12:34 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/19/10 12:34 AM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

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C C C:

There's something very wrong with the notion of a prozac-popping anagami.

What about embracing your humanness and loving that as a starting point? Loving your flesh and blood body, your unrelenting desires, your quirks, your bad habits, your unloving thoughts, your filth? There's wisdom in the left hand path.


Noticed you added this while I was writing my response to your original post. Can't say I disagree with you on your second point. Again though, I don't see the applicability. We haven't been discussing anagamis. And taking medication is not equivalent to withholding love or harshly repressing humanness.
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Luckee Simpleton, modified 13 Years ago at 7/19/10 12:57 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/19/10 12:57 AM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

Posts: 29 Join Date: 12/2/09 Recent Posts
C C C:
Crikey, this website is sounding more like a men's-only depression forum every day. IMO, meditation practices (insight or concentration) cannot be successfully used as a way of escaping an unsuccessful life*. It reminds me of the kids at school who were bad a sport and so 'escaped' to the library, rationalizing that 'sport is for meat heads, I'm better than that!', the same way that 'spiritual' people rationalize that 'desire is the cause of all suffering', because they haven't found a way to satisfy those desires the way normal people do. Every time I read a thread on here I'm always reminded of Emmerson: "the first requisite is to be a good animal, and this is the first requisite for every one. A course of life which sacrifices the animal, though it may be defensible under special conditions is not defensible as a general policy." The library does not hold the answers. It's a form of escapism.

EDIT - *by unsuccessful I'm mainly referring to poor self-esteem and confidence and poor ability to love and be loved. The easiest way to know if you if you have or lack these qualities is by the way you interact at a fun social gathering or party. If you get stuck in the corner talking to the boring guy about physics or religion, or if you just don't feel like you 'fit in', something ain't right.

There's something very wrong with the notion of a prozac-popping anagami.

What about embracing your humanness and loving that as a starting point? Loving your flesh and blood body, your unrelenting desires, your quirks, your bad habits, your unloving thoughts, your filth? There's wisdom in the left hand path.


CCC, I was about to reply to this but I see David has already expressed most of my feelings very eloquently. However I will say I'm not sure I agree there is anything wrong with a prozac-popping anagami. The standard wisdom goes that, notwithstanding neuroplasticity, meditation cannot and will not save us from our biology, although of course it may make all the difference between dealing with it skillfully or not.

The biggest issue I have is with your statement that "meditation practices (insight or concentration) cannot be successfully used as a way of escaping an unsuccessful life".

Define success or failure and you are immediately caught in the very trap you are telling Stefan to avoid.

Other than this, you make some points here that are true and valid but not particularly relevant.
This Good Self, modified 13 Years ago at 7/20/10 4:43 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/20/10 4:43 AM

RE: Request for advice and feedback + MBMC retreat report, talk w/ Dan

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Fair rebuttals David and Julian.

Sometimes i pick up a vibe underlying a thread, or group of threads, rather than things being written expressly. Either that or I'm projecting, or perhaps a bit of both.
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chamaeleon yogi, modified 12 Years ago at 1/9/12 2:28 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/27/10 1:59 PM

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@ the stuff above: The undercurrents...yes, the big lament, I admit to all you oh so hard boiled bad-ass whatnot.

News is that after stabilizing enough (1 year) to resume meditation practice and getting used to what seemed unbearable in the beginning without screwing up too much (3 years) practice gradually is possible again and feels now very smilar to what it was before. Recently I did 2 retreats of 7 and 10 days respectively.

The difference is, that before repressed stuff was boiling up and erased that did not have the psychological attribute of being "me", now it is predominantly content that is "me" that comes into the focus of attention and gets erased eventually, accompanied by resististence of yet unknown dimensions and quality and psychosomatic manifestations which only recently ran out of steam. Sort of trying to change the pistons of an engine that runs at full throttle while I am used to do every action by pushig the gas to the floor .

Before increased effort, also for weeks on retreat, did affect something, but not that, as if it were somewhow out of sight and completely impossibel to get a grip on it (the "try to get grip" itself was part of the problem), perceivable only in its somatic shadow. I would have had no chance if I followed the advice of my supervisor - and Dan Ingram - in these days to go on practicing full steam. It seemed, and perhaps was, absolutely impossible to do anything using effort without creating headache, literally, and no effort whatsoever lead to anything. Only time allowed the mental setup to morph into the state in which it is now. Eventually I'm pretty happy with a duration of 4 years to regain a comparably functional mind when my initial blind guess was 10.

Eventually I'd say that was a not so nice version of re-observation emedded in sort of strange overlay of stages. Perhaps there could be a criteria established in a footnote somewhere that says when NOT to try to cross this stage in a brute force style because symptom x says indicates that it it is not possible. But perhaps there could not.

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