I think this topic is a good one to explore.

First off: disclaimer: The DhO cannot endorse the use of illegal drugs or breaking the law in any way.

Beyond that, I think clearly people have mixed experiences with these things as Tarin says.

The apathy from pot is clearly real and frequently reported, as are the reductions in dreams and some other experiences. Schizophrenia and pot use continue to be linked in numerous studies, though correlation and causality are not the same thing.

I know a number of people who had very profound openings (mostly A&P) on various hallucinogens, including a few of my hippy and boomer teachers, but most decided that they needed to be able to get insights on their own power and tended to trend to less drug use, though there are exceptions.

One way or the other, I would advocate seeing what you can do on your own power and go for clarity and wisdom using standard methods, as if you can do it unaltered, you know it is yours and not just some side effect.

I don't have anything major to add, but I do think that experimenting periodically is certainly not going to kill you. In fact, you may or may not find a way to use things such as this to help you figure out something in life (dharma related or not), as you have already stated. And so with that said, I suggest that you judge your approach based on the actual feedback you get from your experiences, and try not to throw things out permanently even if they do not seem appropriate for a certain period in your life.

In that same vein and in relation to the section I quoted, remember that there ultimately is not a "within." Either demonizing or making sacrosanct the "inside" will only lead to spinning one's wheels. Just look for the experiential results. It does not matter whether your perceptions shift due to having THC (derived from a plant) on the brain or whether it is due to meditating in such a way that your brain's native neurological chemicals (which are derived from caloric intake: plants and animals) are the ones that "do the damage." Change is change, and if it leads you toward being happy and kind, then that is great. Though, I suppose I've always been a bit of a Machiavellian type :].

Best,
Trent

Dear Max: Actually I find calling smoking dope "middle wayish" to be extremely strong language, but perhaps you haven't really plumbed the depths of what Middle Way means, especially to a Buddhist discussion group. If this is the case then I apologize. However, Buddha coined the expression "Middle Way" as a Noble Path that is neither asceticism nor hedonism. The Five Precepts does not forbid the use of intoxicants, but if you take the five precepts as vows and become an actual follower of the buddha then it actually does become an issue.

Strong drugs over power the mind for most users. That is why they use them. Like the Dharma battle strategy called "Iron Turd", it conveys an unwillingness to be assertive with positive values. All the time spent stoned on drugs could be spent in practice and the liberation of all sentient beings.

As far as slashing tires goes what I said was if you want to "bond" with your friends this may be a very effective way of doing it. Most stoners never remember other stoners in the long haul, trust me on that one. But they would most likely remember the peckerwood who slashed their tires. That is what I mean by bonding. I don't mean to disrespect your friends however. I think you should pull the Iron Turd stunt on them, it has proved quite successful here.

p e a c e

h a n s e n

Here's my 2 cents on pot:

I think it's possible to make a religion out of smoking, along the lines of Bob Marley and Willie Nelson -- there are plenty of people who seem to consider pot as a harmless recreational substance that has a significant edge over other substances, such as alcohol, primarily due to the way it enhances creativity/creative expression.

For me, the experience of playing guitar, singing, and songwriting (I do all in a rock band that I'm deeply committed to -- I actually want to have "a musical career") while on pot still has not found a rival, yet. However, it's the same drug that brought me the realization that I will never be fundamentally/existentially "free" and/or satisfied until I find out for myself, experientially, what this whole "Enlightenment" thing is. It brought me the understanding that Self-knowledge -- Truth-realization, in the purely mystical sense -- is the ONLY thing that can give life any valid meaning (I tend to think a lot along existential lines: I think people like Viktor Frankl and Albert Camus had some pretty profound insights into human nature -- philosophical insights that are not necessarily mutually exclusive with a spiritual path and in fact provide a very powerful foundation for Training in Morality). Heck, I wouldn't even have gotten on a spiritual path if it weren't for pot.

My first "spiritual experience" was an intuitive recognition of the unqualified truth behind the saying "Samsara is Nirvana," and it was such a profoundly beautiful and deeply-felt experience that ever since then I have not been able to forget that there IS an answer to the riddle of life, that the Buddha WAS speaking the truth -- in retrospect, I would also add that I believe I saw, first-hand, what is meant by "the dualistic split" (as Daniel talks about in his book), and how fundamental suffering is created through an illusion of duality. Prior to this experience, I actually was not even aware of there being a fundamental existential problem with my life -- a problem that can only be addressed and solved by committedly walking a spiritual path. This understanding arose within me due to pot.

However, for me there came a point when I also realized that the Final Experience that I'm seeking -- that I was pointed toward through those early spiritual openings -- most likely will not happen for me until my personal consciousness/"mind" naturally and stably transforms to a state of perception that does not see much of a duality between the drug-experience and "everyday reality." For me, meditation still has not begun to produce those altered mystical states that pot so easily brings on (and that CAN become addictive). Even though these states brought on by the drug in-and-of themselves aren't harmful, I have found that, in the end, there still remains a guy inside me -- the spiritual ego -- who asks: "Are we done yet?" And by that I mean to actually have the sense that "done is what needed to be done!" In a nutshell: smoking pot will never actually free you. Theoretically, it's possible to Awaken while in ANY state, but at least for me, I find that my mind has to feel that the conditions have been ripened for an authentic spiritual event to take place -- and this I believe can only happen through committed spiritual practice.

The biggest problem for me has been finding a way to be equally as creative while not on pot -- I put a high price-tag on creativity. As a musician who has recorded with bands, I simply did my best work while high.

I believe that with enough time and meditative practice, however, the mind can begin to slow down, and open up to the point where it's able to strike a healthy balance between the more mundane/practical aspects of life (that usually dull a creative spirit) and the very intimate experience of "being with your muse." Most musicians I know smoke pot to access that creative state -- however, these guys are not necessarily looking for the end of fundamental suffering like I am. They do not necessarily understand that pot consumes your chi (to me it seems/feels as though pot uses vital energy/chi/ki/prana as "fuel" to produce a spiritual/altered state that's beautiful -- a temporary felt-sense of the cessation of separation where the entire universe is seen as a creative act -- which produces the best "improv" for a musician). Or they might, but don't care. This would not be a problem if chi, when conserved and redirected (through Practice), did not lead to profounder, and stabler, mental states that make Enlightenment a more likely possibility.

So, I've got a pretty well-defined problem that's been cut out for me -- but the good news is that it's the attacking the problem that makes me creative, and brings me spiritual insights as well. Again, to me it seems it's all about finding a lifestyle that produces creativity/inspires me as opposed to a drug (which can be very good for the short-run, but which will probably ruin my capacity for deep creative expression well into my 40's and 50's -- I'm 31 now).