(Practice Thread)Tentative 4th and Preceeding Jhanas - Discussion
Hello all,
Thought I'd just get right into the spirit of things with my first post.
I'm looking to get comments recent experiences of what I'm guessing to be 3rd and 4th Jhanas. Want to confirm a few things and get some advice.Most of this was done on a Goenka retreat, and at a Thai temple, reading MCTB inbetween. So most of the analysis comes from experience at the temple. Unfortunately, temples tend to be pretty social places. As there are always chores to be done, visitors to help, and prayers/pre-meal prayers 6 times daily, long sits were difficult to arrange and most were around 40 minutes.
Speeding along, I'm just going to detail the patterns I go through/notice when I sit, and leave them as-is, but follow the MCTB progression for brevity/simplicity. The object I'm using is the breath, about 80% of the formal practice is sitting.
Access Concentration: Came quite easily throughout, in <2mins. I remember MCTB 's description as pretty simple, and all I'm going by is the general idea that "I'm easily able to stay with the breath" for extended stretches, with moments where I notice 'wandering' occuring minimally, especially in contrast to normal mind activity.
1st Jhana: It's hard to describe the feeling of Rapture with any word other than rapture. Being 'taken away' doesn't quite hit the spot. I guess the main feature for me is wheras in AC I would briefly be aware of sensations like a breeze, mosquito, or sound before being back on the breath (under 1 second), in what I assume to be 1st Jhana, I feel like I'm 'glued' in my headspace. A lot of stuff that I'm sure is going on outside me I'm noticing a lot less of now. This effect is more pronounced
for each other jhana description I'll give, so just assume it's always happening.
The 'happiness' and 'ecstacy' aren't pronounced for me. It feels more like a feeling of openness (or perhaps a sensation of openness inside and around my head would be more accurate), but the general theme is positive. It could be because I got bored doing body scanning in my last goenka retreat (my 2nd, about a month ago) and accidentally stumbled into what was probably 2nd Jhana. I remember being extremely attatched to it and happy, cultivating it over and over again for the rest of the
retreat. More on that later. But the point is the "oh my god this feels great" isn't really there for me, but I remember feeling that way the first few times.
I am aware of the need to constantly apply effort to stay in 1st Jhana, more on that below.
2nd Jhana: May have stumbled upon it during a Goenka retreat. I stayed with the breath as long as I could each hour instead of bodyscanning (before reading MCT
, not really having a goal and just working with a very vague idea of staying focused. I started enjoying it a lot. I noticed that I'd really get into the breath sitting right after the bell rang (to let the meditators know to stop), and would always stay for a few minutes alone in the hall because of this. This went on for a few days, and during one sit I distinctly remember a quote by a zen teacher (suzuki, beginner's mind) along the lines of 'meditation not being
meditation', letting go of the idea of sitting and applying effort. So I 'tried' (sort-of a formal resolution) to not apply effort and quickly shifted into the pleasurable state I described above.
Trying to keep it brief, I'm saying this experience stood out in my memory as either hard 1st or entering 2nd Jhana. I knew it was different before I knew what a jhana was. Sensation-wise, it's sorta a stronger version of 1st Jhana but without the effort; the 'shift' is also much more pronounced sitting eyes-open, as I found out a couple sits later.
Obviously I'm not sure about any of this. And think I could be mixing up some aspects of hard 1st and 2nd Jhanas. I've cultivated up to what I think is 2nd Jhana many times(Goenka retreat), but only around 1-2 dozen of 3rd and 4th (thai temple, much less intensive, staggered sitting times). I feel like a fish out of water trying to self diagnose this stuff.
3rd Jhana:
Where the bliss/rapture predominated before (and primarily in the head/upper body area), there's a feeling of "coming down" for me, which seems to match MCTB 's descriptions. I'd confirm this by spot checking the 'head region' and contrasting that with my memory of the earlier state. In any case I was actively looking for 'bodily bliss' (MCTB ) and feel like that was a good way to describe the pleasant tingling and whatnot occuring on my body.
It's really, really easy to ignore distractions in this state. Unlike 2nd Jhana, I can't recall the exact details of the first time, but I remember entering it multiple times at the tail end of a group sit in the main prayer hall (after the chanting), and being caught up in it (basically enjoying, or what I think Ingram means when he says 'getting stuck' in MCTB ) for most of the hour-long dharma talk the head monk gave (in thai). I'd drop out after the talk ended, noticing the after effects would linger for quite some time, 2-3 hours sometimes.
Right now I'm not really noticing much else but the bodily bliss (eyes open or closed). It seems 'simpler' in feeling than 2nd jhana. I don't remember getting confused at all with attention being more focused on the periphery. I noticed the first time it but it just wasn't a big deal with everything else being so pleasant. I might have mistaken it for 'dropping out' of 2nd jhana in the goenka retreat, but have no recollection.
4th Jhana:
I've only done this eyes open, and seem to have trouble noticing any shift with eyes closed. Bodily bliss sort of dissapears (instead of attention 'dropping' from head to body from 2nd to 3rd), and I confirm this with spot checks (shifting my attention for short times). Anyway, there's a noticeable shift that occurs.
But after that, I don't know, there is sorta nothing to describe. It's really peaceful and there's just a lot less going on. Even the feeling of paying attention to the breath is more of an afterthought now, I consciously know it is there and can feel for it, but am not 'aware' of it in the same way as previous jhanas. Even the idea that the general feeling is positive is somewhat muted.
I feel like don't have to exert any effort at all, my posture (maintained with more and more ease as I go up the jhanas, something I forgot to mention) in this state is the best I've had it at any point in my practice. I can easily stay this way, dropping out only if the sit ends, or I try too hard to think of clever ways to force a shift into 5th jhana (usually playing with descriptions and resultions off MCTB ).
I've got other questions but this is long enough. Sorry if I was a little long winded, I thought it'd be more productive to have all 4 in one post. I'm sure I was a little light on some parts and said some unnecessary stuff too, so please post if you need clarification on anything.
I've cultivated 4th Jhana the fewest times, so there's a lot more uncertainty in that description.
To sum up in a sentence or two:
1st Jhana: Rapture, bliss.
2nd Jhana: More rapture, more bliss, minus effort.
3rd Jhana: No rapture, different/'lighter' bliss. Pleasant sensations on body.
4th Jhana: Not much of anything. Peaceful. Pleasant in a muted, tangential kind of way (not manifesting in sensations).
Thanks in advance for your help,
Daniel
let me know if I should just turn this into a practice thread or something. or if it should go in dharma diagnostic
Edit: Changed title. Turning this space into a practice thread to put questions and updates on any progress I made past 4th jhana. Will start a vipassana practice thread also.
Thought I'd just get right into the spirit of things with my first post.
I'm looking to get comments recent experiences of what I'm guessing to be 3rd and 4th Jhanas. Want to confirm a few things and get some advice.Most of this was done on a Goenka retreat, and at a Thai temple, reading MCTB inbetween. So most of the analysis comes from experience at the temple. Unfortunately, temples tend to be pretty social places. As there are always chores to be done, visitors to help, and prayers/pre-meal prayers 6 times daily, long sits were difficult to arrange and most were around 40 minutes.
Speeding along, I'm just going to detail the patterns I go through/notice when I sit, and leave them as-is, but follow the MCTB progression for brevity/simplicity. The object I'm using is the breath, about 80% of the formal practice is sitting.
Access Concentration: Came quite easily throughout, in <2mins. I remember MCTB 's description as pretty simple, and all I'm going by is the general idea that "I'm easily able to stay with the breath" for extended stretches, with moments where I notice 'wandering' occuring minimally, especially in contrast to normal mind activity.
1st Jhana: It's hard to describe the feeling of Rapture with any word other than rapture. Being 'taken away' doesn't quite hit the spot. I guess the main feature for me is wheras in AC I would briefly be aware of sensations like a breeze, mosquito, or sound before being back on the breath (under 1 second), in what I assume to be 1st Jhana, I feel like I'm 'glued' in my headspace. A lot of stuff that I'm sure is going on outside me I'm noticing a lot less of now. This effect is more pronounced
for each other jhana description I'll give, so just assume it's always happening.
The 'happiness' and 'ecstacy' aren't pronounced for me. It feels more like a feeling of openness (or perhaps a sensation of openness inside and around my head would be more accurate), but the general theme is positive. It could be because I got bored doing body scanning in my last goenka retreat (my 2nd, about a month ago) and accidentally stumbled into what was probably 2nd Jhana. I remember being extremely attatched to it and happy, cultivating it over and over again for the rest of the
retreat. More on that later. But the point is the "oh my god this feels great" isn't really there for me, but I remember feeling that way the first few times.
I am aware of the need to constantly apply effort to stay in 1st Jhana, more on that below.
2nd Jhana: May have stumbled upon it during a Goenka retreat. I stayed with the breath as long as I could each hour instead of bodyscanning (before reading MCT
, not really having a goal and just working with a very vague idea of staying focused. I started enjoying it a lot. I noticed that I'd really get into the breath sitting right after the bell rang (to let the meditators know to stop), and would always stay for a few minutes alone in the hall because of this. This went on for a few days, and during one sit I distinctly remember a quote by a zen teacher (suzuki, beginner's mind) along the lines of 'meditation not being meditation', letting go of the idea of sitting and applying effort. So I 'tried' (sort-of a formal resolution) to not apply effort and quickly shifted into the pleasurable state I described above.
Trying to keep it brief, I'm saying this experience stood out in my memory as either hard 1st or entering 2nd Jhana. I knew it was different before I knew what a jhana was. Sensation-wise, it's sorta a stronger version of 1st Jhana but without the effort; the 'shift' is also much more pronounced sitting eyes-open, as I found out a couple sits later.
Obviously I'm not sure about any of this. And think I could be mixing up some aspects of hard 1st and 2nd Jhanas. I've cultivated up to what I think is 2nd Jhana many times(Goenka retreat), but only around 1-2 dozen of 3rd and 4th (thai temple, much less intensive, staggered sitting times). I feel like a fish out of water trying to self diagnose this stuff.
3rd Jhana:
Where the bliss/rapture predominated before (and primarily in the head/upper body area), there's a feeling of "coming down" for me, which seems to match MCTB 's descriptions. I'd confirm this by spot checking the 'head region' and contrasting that with my memory of the earlier state. In any case I was actively looking for 'bodily bliss' (MCTB ) and feel like that was a good way to describe the pleasant tingling and whatnot occuring on my body.
It's really, really easy to ignore distractions in this state. Unlike 2nd Jhana, I can't recall the exact details of the first time, but I remember entering it multiple times at the tail end of a group sit in the main prayer hall (after the chanting), and being caught up in it (basically enjoying, or what I think Ingram means when he says 'getting stuck' in MCTB ) for most of the hour-long dharma talk the head monk gave (in thai). I'd drop out after the talk ended, noticing the after effects would linger for quite some time, 2-3 hours sometimes.
Right now I'm not really noticing much else but the bodily bliss (eyes open or closed). It seems 'simpler' in feeling than 2nd jhana. I don't remember getting confused at all with attention being more focused on the periphery. I noticed the first time it but it just wasn't a big deal with everything else being so pleasant. I might have mistaken it for 'dropping out' of 2nd jhana in the goenka retreat, but have no recollection.
4th Jhana:
I've only done this eyes open, and seem to have trouble noticing any shift with eyes closed. Bodily bliss sort of dissapears (instead of attention 'dropping' from head to body from 2nd to 3rd), and I confirm this with spot checks (shifting my attention for short times). Anyway, there's a noticeable shift that occurs.
But after that, I don't know, there is sorta nothing to describe. It's really peaceful and there's just a lot less going on. Even the feeling of paying attention to the breath is more of an afterthought now, I consciously know it is there and can feel for it, but am not 'aware' of it in the same way as previous jhanas. Even the idea that the general feeling is positive is somewhat muted.
I feel like don't have to exert any effort at all, my posture (maintained with more and more ease as I go up the jhanas, something I forgot to mention) in this state is the best I've had it at any point in my practice. I can easily stay this way, dropping out only if the sit ends, or I try too hard to think of clever ways to force a shift into 5th jhana (usually playing with descriptions and resultions off MCTB ).
I've got other questions but this is long enough. Sorry if I was a little long winded, I thought it'd be more productive to have all 4 in one post. I'm sure I was a little light on some parts and said some unnecessary stuff too, so please post if you need clarification on anything.
I've cultivated 4th Jhana the fewest times, so there's a lot more uncertainty in that description.
To sum up in a sentence or two:
1st Jhana: Rapture, bliss.
2nd Jhana: More rapture, more bliss, minus effort.
3rd Jhana: No rapture, different/'lighter' bliss. Pleasant sensations on body.
4th Jhana: Not much of anything. Peaceful. Pleasant in a muted, tangential kind of way (not manifesting in sensations).
Thanks in advance for your help,
Daniel
let me know if I should just turn this into a practice thread or something. or if it should go in dharma diagnostic
Edit: Changed title. Turning this space into a practice thread to put questions and updates on any progress I made past 4th jhana. Will start a vipassana practice thread also.
