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Adam B Practice Thread Adam Bieber 5/27/11 1:36 AM
RE: Adam B Practice Thread adam , 5/27/11 1:38 PM
RE: Adam B Practice Thread Adam Bieber 5/27/11 8:45 PM
RE: Adam B Practice Thread Adam Bieber 5/31/11 9:18 PM
RE: Adam B Practice Thread adam , 5/31/11 9:25 PM
RE: Adam B Practice Thread Adam Bieber 5/31/11 10:51 PM
RE: Adam B Practice Thread Nad A. 5/31/11 10:26 PM
RE: Adam B Practice Thread Adam Bieber 5/31/11 11:15 PM
RE: Adam B Practice Thread Pål S. 6/1/11 4:28 AM
RE: Adam B Practice Thread Adam Bieber 6/1/11 2:50 PM
RE: Adam B Practice Thread adam , 6/1/11 4:19 PM
RE: Adam B Adam Bieber 10/4/11 2:17 PM
RE: Adam B Practice Thread Adam Bieber 6/16/11 11:01 PM
RE: Adam B Practice Thread Adam Bieber 6/20/11 10:11 PM
RE: Adam B Practice Thread Adam Bieber 7/14/11 12:44 PM
RE: Adam B Practice Thread Adam Bieber 7/21/11 2:01 PM
RE: Adam B Practice Thread Adam Bieber 7/29/11 9:36 PM
RE: Adam B Practice Thread Adam Bieber 8/12/11 9:43 PM
So, what feelings? Harry Potter 8/13/11 10:55 PM
RE: So, what feelings? Adam Bieber 8/14/11 12:01 AM
RE: So, what feelings? Harry Potter 8/14/11 5:22 PM
RE: So, what feelings? Adam Bieber 8/25/11 12:32 AM
RE: So, what feelings? Adam Bieber 8/25/11 12:36 AM
RE: Generating Well-Being Adam Bieber 10/4/11 2:16 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being josh r s 10/4/11 3:45 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being Adam Bieber 10/4/11 4:39 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being ed c 10/5/11 12:09 AM
RE: Generating Well-Being Adam Bieber 10/27/11 8:05 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being Adam Bieber 10/28/11 10:35 AM
RE: Generating Well-Being Adam Bieber 10/28/11 7:18 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being Adam Bieber 10/28/11 11:07 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 10/28/11 10:18 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being Adam Bieber 10/30/11 1:25 AM
RE: Generating Well-Being Adam Bieber 10/31/11 3:18 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being Adam Bieber 11/4/11 2:44 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being Nikolai . 11/4/11 3:31 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being Adam Bieber 11/7/11 11:15 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being Adam Bieber 11/9/11 12:08 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being Adam Bieber 11/10/11 1:55 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being Adam Bieber 11/10/11 10:11 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being Adam Bieber 11/12/11 11:18 AM
RE: Generating Well-Being End in Sight 11/12/11 12:01 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being Jon T 11/13/11 10:37 AM
RE: Generating Well-Being End in Sight 11/13/11 1:37 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being Jon T 11/13/11 5:19 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being Adam Bieber 11/13/11 6:14 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being Adam Bieber 11/13/11 10:26 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being End in Sight 11/14/11 9:04 AM
RE: Generating Well-Being Jon T 11/15/11 12:59 PM
RE: Generating Well-Being End in Sight 11/15/11 7:31 PM
RE: Adam B Practice Thread adam , 6/1/11 2:21 PM
Adam B Practice Thread
Answer
5/27/11 1:36 AM
Hey guys,

I thought I would start a practice thread to keep me focused and allow me to write notes. Today, a big experiential realization was that the senses first perceive and that perception gives rise to "me." For example, if I am walking a lone in the dark and see something "suspicious", the eyes recognizes the sight first and then "me" interprets automatically. "Me" then turns to a social identity thought. By understanding the connection between immediate sense and the "me" interpretation, I can lessen/eliminate the "me" and bring "myself" into the actual world. With "me", I am referring to the passions.

Currently, I am solely being attentive, sensuous, happy, and harmless. Those four helped me have a relatively long and incredibly nice PCE today.

Also, there are certain locations like being outside that put me in an AF mindset. While in my house, I seem to forget to be sensuous and attentive. I want to spend more time outside so I can chill in PCE and figure "me" out.

RE: Adam B Practice Thread
Answer
5/27/11 1:38 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
sounds good, I definitely share with you the preference for outdoors when attempting to get into PCE, especially if I'm taking a walk. Also my practice is very similar, I've essentially stopped with any sort of cerebral investigation, it seems unnecessary. sensuous attentiveness and wonder along with pure intent seems to be identity denying in and of themselves.

RE: Adam B Practice Thread
Answer
5/27/11 8:45 PM as a reply to adam ,.
Now, I am trying to just allow PCE's to happen and contemplate/be attentive any feeling. When outside, PCE mode is barely distinguishable from "my" regular experience. Inside, its a little difficult to tell because I am usually busy "doing" something. definitely relatively harmless and happy but lacking a bit of sensuous attention. The PCE's are awesome but not unusual.

"I" try to sink deeper and deeper into the present moment and allow a PCE to happen. By allowing, "I" have let go of the controls.

Pure intent is being the best one can be and if one has experienced a peak experience, then one knows the best one can be (Peter).

RE: Adam B Practice Thread
Answer
5/31/11 9:18 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Hey guys,

Throughout practice, I barely understood naivete but thought I did. I tried to access the state of wonder and amazement as a basic skill and whenever I did, marveling at the world was marvelous.

Sometime ago I read the actual freedom trust site about naivete and it discussed naivete as a physical innate quality to access,where it is located below the navel as an empty space. This empty space is like a hole in the being and by "becoming" this empty space, the being is minimized and emptied. The space gets wider and wider until PCE/EE so your basically pure space while continuously sensing. By making this pure space your pure intent, one has constant access to the actual world and one's being is clearly seen and mostly a non-issue. I expect actual freedom is permanently "being" this empty space while enjoying the senses. It is remarkable.

I am almost certain this discovery of constant physical naivete mixed with pure intent will soon lead to an actual freedom. Its so easy to stay with this space because it is always present. One can always grab for it and relinquish the hold of being. One still has to be harmless of course but the happiness becomes automatic. Based on attentiveness, the space can vary in size until you are completely your senses. Also, while "being" this empty space, sensuous attention is much more exciting.

Right now, "I" am all about pure intent, naivete, and light sensuous attention.

RE: Adam B Practice Thread
Answer
5/31/11 9:25 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
I remember hearing once someone describe mindfulness as keeping the mind within the skin. I've taken a variation on that for sensuousness, keeping the mind at the skin. Feel with the outer layer of skin, see with the very edge of the eye, hear right at the ear. It sort of move your sense of 'you' outwards, I feel like I understand exactly what you mean by the open space, it's similar to what I experience when I try to push my awareness to the 'outer layer.'

it's definitely comfortable and easy to maintain, a very comfortable place to rest on the knife's edge between self-based experience and PCE

RE: Adam B Practice Thread
Answer
5/31/11 10:51 PM as a reply to adam ,.
Naivete is a felicitous/innocuous state where as focusing on the skin/eyes/ears etc. is sensuous attention.
If you search into the being below the navel area and above the sexual area, you notice an open space. When focusing on this open space, it grows larger and there is no internal or external only a divide between this open, pure, and clean space and sensation/instincts of being, which invariably declines as more attention is brought to the open space.

The open space I believe is naivete and when focused on "takes" one over and washes upon you in wonder, space and serenity. By continuously focusing on this naivete, "one" knows and is the experience of purity and from a perspective of purity, the sideline instincts then settle themselves so to speak and what is left is the state of naivete.

Therefore, in the state of naivete mixed with pure intent, one "does" nothing and enjoys as well as knows they are making progress because the "being" is not in charge so to speak and diminishing. One is finding the pure hole in ones being, which can be accessed at all times and making it "ones" experience/state (an automatic happy and harmless state).

RE: Adam B Practice Thread
Answer
5/31/11 10:26 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Adam Bieber:
If you "dig" deep into the being below the navel area and above the sexual area, you notice an open space. When focusing on this open space, it grows larger and there is no internal or external. There is only a divide between this open, pure, and clean space and sensation/instincts of being, which invariably declines as more attention is brought to the open space.

The open space I believe is naivete and when focused on "takes" one over and washes upon you in wonder, space and serenity.


I can never find this space that is talked about. Is it a physical sensation? Should I feel an open space in the middle of my intestines? Is it the kind of physical sensation I might describe to a doctor: 'I have the feeling of an open space in my lower abdomen'? I don't normally need to 'dig' or 'reach down' to feel sensations in my gut so perhaps it's a different kind of feeling?

RE: Adam B Practice Thread
Answer
5/31/11 11:15 PM as a reply to Nad A..
Its literally like open air that lies on top of your being below the navel area and above the sexual area and "you" can become this open air. Its probably the open space in your lower abdomen you describe. This space is part of "you" and can be expanded to your whole being yet its not a being but a space which lies adjacent to it. By focusing on this space, its grows larger and your being minimizes. This space or naivete is innate and inherently pure therefore, becoming this state is happiness, harmlessness, and wonder. When in this state, nothing needs to be done. Again, you have to experiment for yourself with naivete to figure out how it works but it is vital to the AF method.

RE: Adam B Practice Thread
Answer
6/1/11 4:28 AM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
nice explanation, thanks.

RE: Adam B Practice Thread
Answer
6/1/11 2:21 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Adam Bieber:
Naivete is a felicitous/innocuous state where as focusing on the skin/eyes/ears etc. is sensuous attention.
If you search into the being below the navel area and above the sexual area, you notice an open space. When focusing on this open space, it grows larger and there is no internal or external only a divide between this open, pure, and clean space and sensation/instincts of being, which invariably declines as more attention is brought to the open space.

The open space I believe is naivete and when focused on "takes" one over and washes upon you in wonder, space and serenity. By continuously focusing on this naivete, "one" knows and is the experience of purity and from a perspective of purity, the sideline instincts then settle themselves so to speak and what is left is the state of naivete.

Therefore, in the state of naivete mixed with pure intent, one "does" nothing and enjoys as well as knows they are making progress because the "being" is not in charge so to speak and diminishing. One is finding the pure hole in ones being, which can be accessed at all times and making it "ones" experience/state (an automatic happy and harmless state).


I think you're searching a little too hard for errors in what I'm saying. I'm basically describing the same thing but my path to it is slightly different. I pull that open sensation outwards to the 'outer layer' you push it outwards from the inner bubble. And when doing what I'm talking about one "does" nothing either, you have to get there in the first place, just like what you are talking about, but then you can just rest there. Anyway, both of these things seem to get me into the same place, I think we are describing the same experience in different terms. I was just encouraged that you seemed to have independently arrived at doing the same thing I was doing, and getting there in a different way, it just seemed to add credence to what we were talking about, maybe don't be so quick to assume I'm totally misunderstanding everything you say. To be honest, and of course not repressive emoticon, it's a bit frustrating, you might benefit from a slightly different idea.. maybe I'm just stressed from exams though emoticon

RE: Adam B Practice Thread
Answer
6/1/11 2:50 PM as a reply to Pål S..
Then, you add sensuous attention to the open space/naivete.

adam, I think you're right. I misunderstood what you said and realized after I finished the post. I just wanted to be specific in the difference between sensuous attention and naivete. I believe we are discussing the same phenomenon and understand what you mean by "outer" layer. I am trying to be in contact with this naivete at all times through pure intent and continually "open" up the being until it more becomes this clear space. Also, I seem to be able to find this clear opening space not just on the "outer" layer but also in "my" visual field like the space is not just an "aura" but located in the senses. When opening this visual space, wonder increases.

Now that this space can be found visually, I assume it can be found in all senses as well. When opening the space visually, its minimizes the being better than just focusing on naivete from the navel/"outer" layer. One's affective energy should be focused on this naivete and fostering sensuous attention (naivete through the senses) while one still has affective energy.

RE: Adam B Practice Thread
Answer
6/1/11 4:19 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Bleh, it's sort of tough to talk about these purely experiential things. Whatever keeps up felicity, wonder, naivete, attentiveness etc. anything that's aimed towards the PCE. Maybe our language just doesn't quite cut it for this type of talk, or maybe I'm just not used to thinking this way, but I'm just gonna keep doin my thing, and not confuse myself, it's sort of like I just found a new muscle I can flex, but explaining to someone(1) how to flex a muscle they don't know exists is pretty much impossible. People should probably just stick with felicity and sensuousness, maybe they will sort of see it for themselves. There's no way I could have done this with just a language explanation, it's all just really experiential.

Note: It worked even better when I really took what you said to heart, paying attention to the open space while pushing sense of presence outwards 360 degrees. It's hard to explain this in a coherent way, I'm just going to stop.

(1) Not you, I think your doing the same thing

thanks - adam

RE: Adam B
Answer
10/4/11 2:17 PM as a reply to adam ,.
Out of purity comes pure intent

Purity is felicitous naive sensuousness aka open space of pure niceness

http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1611960

RE: Adam B Practice Thread
Answer
6/16/11 11:01 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
It seems that, although desire and nurture are the tender "me", you can still feel both "bad" and "good". The need to belong or the "desire" to belong is a raw feeling/instinct. When I act in order to belong, the belonging goes away but "I" still have validated this aspect of being. When I do not act to belong, like not apologizing for hurting someones feelings, I "feel" bad where as apologizing would make me feel good. So if you don't abide by your instinct to belong, then you feel bad making it "harder" to both ignore what your instincts are telling you and dissolve the feeling.

RE: Adam B Practice Thread
Answer
6/20/11 10:11 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
In any "new" situation, fear arises because during a "new" situation, the actions of a "self" can hurt "ones" chance of survival. One is "threatened" by new situations, which brings automatic fear.

Get used to feeling the passions as they are. There is a difference between the idea of fear/aggression/desire/nurture and what the physical sensations actually feel like.

Also, based on one's thoughts, one can know which passion is being expressed. Like if one thinks about losing one's job, then fear is most definitely present. Sometimes, the emotion/passion is right behind the thought and by stopping the thought, "you" are confronted with a sticky feeling to examine and investigate.

Get used to being vulnerable with the passions and negative emotions. By letting your guard down and investigating, the passion eventually becomes more and more harmless. You have to experience the rawness of the passions before they dissipate.

RE: Adam B Practice Thread
Answer
7/14/11 12:44 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
While sitting in PCE, the only thing that gets me out are these spurts of urges that seem to be chemically induced. I'll be in a pce or bordering on it, and i'll get an urge to get up and leave. These spurts of urges seem to be the first parts of self. They are easy to miss and I think when missed lead to the feeling being and circling identity.

added note: What senses (sensuousness) are going on in this moment? at the same time, attentive to any urges or harmful spurts.

RE: Adam B Practice Thread
Answer
7/21/11 2:01 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
"I" am a poet and a musician and "I" can't seem to shake the vivid desire to throw myself into the work and master it. I think about it a lot. Its not that I see myself as THE poet or THE musician, its that my mind gets flooded with stories of how to go about it, different ways to be creative, different ideas to accomplish. It interferes with my delight.

I've gotten pretty good at harnessing delight so much so that sensuousness becomes profound, satisfying, and interesting but I still fall into these sorrowful moods. The moods come from various reason but always deal with a lack of current wanting to harness pure intent. With pure intent, delight is at the snap of my fingertips but sometimes its difficult get that intent working when you don't want to "do" anything.

affection, desire, hate, and fear flicker within me when faced with a situation but they are light and seen immediately. They pass quickly, but the being as a being sits here blocking sensuousness and delight unless i have full on pure intent, which takes effort to do. But even when I am attentive on the overlapping being, its interesting because I get to figure out the makings of "me" while being sensuous. Its when I forget about the subtle being, that a become fixed in the being, which has a greater deal of suffering than delight and sensuousness.

the being sets a sorrowful mood or less pure "feeling, where disturbances have a chance to arise in the form of passion or social identity and emotion (it is often a bit difficult to distinguish between passion and emotion)

Anyway, with 100% pure intent running, life is absolutely incredible. Without it, its bleh but I have less needs to chain me every moment and its incomparably better than months ago.

RE: Adam B Practice Thread
Answer
7/29/11 9:36 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
So I've realized a large portion of my sorrow comes from the stories in my head surrounding "seeing myself as a poet and musician." What happens is, a trigger comes which triggers a story and usually a good idea about how to accomplish a future task (increasing story) but as the idea settles, the feeling which it is based with, increases or changes to something less favorable. When the feeling changes like for example, to doubt about another idea relating to the original story, sorrow develops. Without the story, there is no sorrow.

That being said, I see two large stories in circulation. Its amazing how much time every hour is spent within these two cycling stories. My job now is to stop the story from starting when it is sparked by any trigger. This seems to keep a base of delight consistent, and then more delight can be built, increasing sensuousness, further serendipity etc.

"I" am a malicious person. Idk, whenever something doesn't go "my" way. I get angry, sometimes acting involuntarily like really savage thoughts, and other times just feeling the maliciousness and letting it ride. Resentment of people and the present still occurs, just saying. Its all part of "me".

"I" am optimistic though. Having located my two major disrupting social identity stories currently. I can stop them, continue decreasing them, until they are non-existent and delight and sensuosness, i am confident, will be incrementalily easier to access. Its also freeing to not be these stories. To not be THAT somebody, to not have to achieve THOSE things.

HAIETMOBA works every time but it does take a lot of effort. Hopefully, I can increase my effort to apply this method more effectively.

RE: Adam B Practice Thread
Answer
8/12/11 9:43 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Just a tip, which has helped me:

If AF is freedom and paradise, then what now, in your physical senses already feels like a paradise. Question how is it possible that this earth is paradise? Where exactly do you find it or where is that enjoyableness now? It must already be here and something your senses "perceive".

Yes, you cannot feel for an actual freedom but you can search for a paradise which exists as shown in a pce and ee. Where in your sense field is that total complete satisfaction and enjoyment? Find it, focus on it, and enjoy it. Its probably just a soft tickle of air conditioner but thats what makes up paradise: all these little sensations in a row that feel great ( plus the absense of internal suffering). Now you just need to look for the pleasurable sensations each moment and its a stream of never ending enjoyment aka being in paradise.

Its here already, just find it exactly!

So, what feelings?
Answer
8/13/11 10:55 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Well, Adam, I assume you get to feel this sense paradise even when not in a PCE. Given that felicitous feelings is the closest a feeling being can come to PCE, could you write a bit more about how this sense paradise "feels" like?

Generally I notice more abstract experience reports from advanced AF practitioners, but I may be able to relate to it if it is the down-to-earth this-is-how-it-feels-like kind of explanations.

For example, what other feelings and thoughts go on your mind other than the perception of "a soft tickle of air conditioner"?

RE: So, what feelings?
Answer
8/14/11 12:01 AM as a reply to Harry Potter.
Harry Potter:
Well, Adam, I assume you get to feel this sense paradise even when not in a PCE. Given that felicitous feelings is the closest a feeling being can come to PCE, could you write a bit more about how this sense paradise "feels" like?


When I am not in a PCE, there is mostly a small affective tone that causes experience to be imperfect in the way that their is an emotional twinge distracting me with some sort of small sorrow (usually because my social identity is currently holding on to dreams, ambitions, etc. that put me under a small stress).

This small twang doesn't inhibit me from searching for a paradise. For me this paradise is in the current sensations that cause some sort of pleasure or enjoyment. Like within a sensation, lets say placing a silk scarf to your cheek, within that sensation is a feeling of enjoyment, except its not a feeling but pure pleasure from the physical senses. Right now, try running your hands under cold water or resting your head on a pillow. When you do that, you feel a sensation and within the sensation there is some inherent pleasure. Now, focusing on that pleasure during sense experience, makes you live in a paradise already here, a paradise of concurrent pleasurable sensations.

In your sense field, there are many sensations occurring. Your thoughts, your feelings, your passions as well as your butt on a chair, your hand on the laptop, your feet on the floor (the actual ones). Within those actual ones are small hints of pleasure. Constantly focusing on that pleasure is the pleasure of sensuous awareness and then apperception lies in only perceiving that subtle pleasure within a sensation continuously. Wherever your pleasure is, find it, enjoy it. Its what proves that being alive is really nice and awesome. Adding a having fun dimension, makes everything that much better because your carefree (not holding onto fear or shame for actions: past, or present like not applying the af method "right") while feeling this sensuous paradise. Sometimes I forget to focus on it, other times some trigger takes me away from sensuous attention but whenever I go back to this sensuous attention, small bits, no matter how small of the pleasure/enjoyment within actual sensations, can be found. Its about constant attention to this and maximizing this pleasure and figuring out whatever is stopping you (internal turmoil) to get back this the peacefulness of pure actual sensation.

A sensation may not feel like the end all and be all of all your problems but with focus on whats already here (sensuousness) and its inherent pleasure, the internal suffering evaporates and you no longer emphasize the instincts/emotions/social identity which need "you" to feed it with its own chemicals to survive. Then, whats left, is constant attention to the actual world, which is only enjoyable except its not like some night and day change but incremental, where you slowly focus on the actual sensations while the "bad" ones become less and less.

Harry Potter:

For example, what other feelings and thoughts go on your mind other than the perception of "a soft tickle of air conditioner"?


Nothing, just the pleasure of the sensation, its freaking awesome. Sometimes, its just like this is nice, its good to be alive, but this is when you focus on, "ok, how can this earth, right now, be a paradise? How is this fun right now? Instead of trying to have fun, i suggest looking for enjoyment and fun, wherever it is, right now.

I think I know what your trying to get at with this question but its hard to explain. Like I assume, you go back and forth between glimpses of ease and "normal" life. The more you focus on the ease, the less "normal" you'll be until "normal" is radically different. Normal will include more and more ease incrementally until you can focus on "a soft tickle of air condition (the actual sensation) with very little "bad" vibe interference.

Also, just to add in, Its not all candy for me yet. everyday, i get periods, where instead of focusing on the actual, I am playing in the hands of the self and feeling an instinctual twang. Its not bad, but i am just trying to say that, things come up, sometimes stay up, and the bad is no longer a big deal and for me, its about increasing concentration to re-focus on the actual again and clear myself of any feeling and social identity, which is so much better than staying a social identity and "feeling".

p.s. I am not spell checking this lol, so I hope their won't too much error.

RE: So, what feelings?
Answer
8/14/11 5:22 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Thanks for the explanation; I'll give it a try as well.

What felicitous feelings do you normally experience[1]? To me, they are mostly some sort of intellectual motivation to satisfy my curiosity by reading books, writing programs; or listening to music. Caffeine and weed too induce felicitous feelings, though they are not about anything in particular.

[1] I only ask because maximizing felicitous feelings is an essential element of the AF method.

RE: So, what feelings?
Answer
8/25/11 12:32 AM as a reply to Harry Potter.
watch out for fear that arises during pce particularly the fear of not wanting to leave a pce. Its is giving into this fear instead of relaxing with sensuousness that increases the fear and i guess has you leave pce.

RE: So, what feelings?
Answer
8/25/11 12:36 AM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
I think the x-factor for me now to get into a pce is a felicitous fun. Seriously having fun, which seems to be a felicitous growing feeling and can be described as the feeling one feels when having fun. Then, i think, it moves to pure apperception, fascination, and delight/fun.

RE: Generating Well-Being
Answer
10/4/11 2:16 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
My plan right now is generating a sense of well-being to limit "good" and "bad" sensations while casually being sensuous. "you" can feel the stronger bits of negative sensation/uncomfortable pull within the well-being and just through attention and manifesting well being, decrease it. I like this approach right now because "I" am not doing anything but feeling felicitous/innocuous (general sense of well-being). I am not deliberately pursuing sensuousness but as an attentive side note to well-being.

As far as virtual freedom is concerned, I am not even really sure I am in one. I think I might be based on the fact that when I pay attention and foster happy and harmlessness, I am virtually free of malice and sorrow but when I lose focus, sorrow and desire instantly are like my default. So labeling experience is difficult.

Does anybody have any advice about taking anti-depressants? Like I said, when I am not focused, I feel sorrow and its "annoying". Would this be an ok idea or pointless?

RE: Generating Well-Being
Answer
10/4/11 3:45 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
if your problem is malice/sorrow when not focused, then you might try to find a way to be focused all the time. doing 2 hours of jhana a day seems to be making me focused almost 100% of the time. even if i just sit there the whole time constantly bringing myself back to the breath, even shifting around a little, i get a couple of hours of effortless attentiveness.

RE: Generating Well-Being
Answer
10/4/11 4:39 PM as a reply to josh r s.
Yea, I think I would definitely benefit from planned formal sits (actualizing jhanas). I notice a palpable difference on concentration when I do. Thanks

RE: Generating Well-Being
Answer
10/5/11 12:09 AM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Adam Bieber:
Does anybody have any advice about taking anti-depressants? Like I said, when I am not focused, I feel sorrow and its "annoying". Would this be an ok idea or pointless?


I take 20 Mg of Lexapro and it’s been very helpful in calming the mind. I’m a bit OCD, hyperactive, addictive and this helps a lot. When it first took affect I distinctly remember thinking two things “Wow, is this how normal people experience life?” and “Wow, I feel stupid.” For me it’s been about slowing the brain down, quieting the noise, leading to an increased ability to focus, to concentrate and to relaxxxxxx. I did not then and do not still consider myself depressed but it definetly improved my mood, probably as a by-product of what I mentioned above.

I got concerned shortly after starting my AF practice when I considered that perhaps the quieting, calming effect of the medication was really masking things I now needed to experience and uproot? Said another way, does it matter how you become happy and harmless? My current OPINION is that is does not matter. If could take the medication tomorrow and your sense of sorrow is minimized, so be it. However I say this while still planning to quit someday, as the concept of avoiding or masking issues lurks (so maybe I’m full of crap) and as Trent said “believing AF practice could be hindered by anti-depressants is what could hinder progress”. Maybe that helps?

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1701316

Take care
Ed

RE: Generating Well-Being
Answer
10/27/11 8:05 PM as a reply to ed c.
I seem to be able to pay almost constant attention to the sense doors giving "me" an almost always EE (or at least several times a day) but often I have these physical contractions that linger in my gut and bother me. The contractions are like a rock of pressure that taints my experience from a joy to more boredom (even though being at the sense is very interesting to see and hear). I would describe the contraction as producing some aversion and boredom.

So basically there is still a small "me" as a feeler and an "I" as a thinker but the "me" is uncomfortable. I guess the only time I am relieved is when I then experience apperception or felicity makes its away through my body disintegrating the damp feeling. This small "me" still allows for normal thoughts; thoughts of desire, thoughts of not fitting in, thoughts of ambition. But with the more attention I can pay, I'll either experience the slightly uncomfortable feeling with no mental proliferations and strong attention to interesting sense doors, or felicity and/or apperception.

I like to dive myself into the now because here I can experience the shifting pleasures of apperception. I am definitely experiencing less emotional range and an easier ability to shift into what I consider EE and sometimes PCE except I still can't tell sometimes between a PCE and an EE unless the PCE is profound in someway. Also, I am not sure the range of experience of an EE. Like a scale of what can be considered an EE. Knowing this would improve my confidence. Can an EE include some boredom, some small lingering irritating feeling like you know all is good but not perfect or completely satisfied?

note: I doubt that it is because "I" don't feel excellent. Yes, my emotional range has extremely diminished but I still fall into periods of boredom and worry. I am thinking that I need to just let go of an agenda but am afraid things won't get done if I do so I end up worrying about it. I want to give it all up, all my beliefs, desires, worries and just live in an EE but "I" am stopped by an overall boredom. I think it is important here to give a never ending effort toward felicity and a never ending attention.

RE: Generating Well-Being
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10/28/11 10:35 AM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Hmmm, going out to a bar? How do you balance keeping attention with desires? This path is awesome, seeing incredible sights based on increased sensuousness but I also feel like a loner. I am 21 years old. All those around me have minds to make something of themselves and get "pussy." I don't want to try. A self-consciousness prevails when in the party atmosphere.

I know "I" am lost but at the same time "I" know the way out. "I" am suicidal thats what "I" am. There are so many opportunities for me in this world. So many in this modern world. I have an understanding of the background benevolence that the universe is. "I" belong to society. "I" belong to society. Increasing bodies, the female body and homosexual thoughts, seem like just bodies. "I" feel the desire for women particularly but "I" don't want to act on this desire because I know I am acting based on desire. So many contradictions with the self.

The worries of responsibility effects the affective feelings in my body. The answer as always seems to be working toward a constant felicity and attentiveness. I am not lost, which is the great thing about actualism. I know the way based on EE and PCE but I get confused when not paying attention and not being felicitous.

These are notes. "I" constantly wonder where I am on this path. I can feel myself getting closer but the self still evokes affective and psychic pain. What to do, What to do but continue on the path that I've experienced as peacefulness and fascination with the actual. So great to have this option that "I" am pursuing but any distraction is the same old suffering.

note: sorry if this is no help to anybody and seems like a belligerent confession. This confession is a differentiation between the confusion of being a self and being in an EE. "I" am changing. "I" am lessening in a good way but "I" am so aware of the sickness of self. Being engrained with the actual is so abundantly fascinating that stepping off attentiveness and felicity feels like a controlling disease, a sickness of "me." I guess this is the human condition although I have no way of knowing how others, "normal" people think and feel.

note2: As of my large hang over, I can tell that last night was a drunk post and stemmed from mood and an inability to focus on current time awareness/the actualism method.

RE: Generating Well-Being
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10/28/11 7:18 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Hi Everybody,

For those who read my last two posts, they pretty much seem completely contradictory. I have been ruminating for the past few hours about why this is and about my current social situation and actualism practice. I am a college student in an environment thats very social. When I am alone or fully focused on current time awareness, sensuousness, and maximizing felicity, my general well-being has never been better with a consistent higher than normal standard of living. But I seem to often error being at school versus when I was home and not around what I consider high social pressure. Also, I was wasted last night and in consequence, very moody.

For me, it seems losing attentiveness and becoming "normal" again is not like becoming normal again with both "good" and "bad" emotions. Sorrow slips in taking over my entire being and is obviously a sudden shift from high well being to low well-being. If I lose attentiveness for to long, I wallow on desire, wallow on sorrow, wallow on my social status and I am deeply suffering. I must figure out a way to limit the pressures of a college social environment in order to remain always happy and harmless as well as continue to maintain attentiveness.

This may include re-calibrating my entire life around. I mean I don't even really enjoy the fraternity I am in anyway. I walk around sometimes thinking about how this is my only life, this is my only present, and when suffering, I am somehow missing and tainting my experience of being alive but when felicitous, I feel fully alive. So back to felicity!

RE: Generating Well-Being
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10/28/11 11:07 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Wow! This morning up until about 30 minutes ago I could have been considered clinically depressed and now, after reading Nikolai blog post, I "feel" incredible. This really really goes to show that you can quickly change from sorrow to amazing relief in seconds if you know how.

http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2011/10/yogi-experiment-riding-wave.html

Information simply presents itself, in mental and physical phenomena. latching on to the phenomena increases tension. Some mental or physical proliferation, "you" may feel the need to judge as it seems and might be important to your life. Thats fine, consciousness is presenting you with this information right there easily but when "you" fabricate it, tension results. Just see the information pass by. Its telling you whats happening. Its arising on its own. Theres no need to fabricate it in any way.

RE: Generating Well-Being
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10/28/11 10:18 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Hi Adam -
"I" feel the desire ... particularly but "I" don't want to act on this desire because I know I am acting based on desire.

Scenario one:
want to act
want to not act
want

Scenario two:
take action
take not action
action

Scenario one is sitting in the same affectative action (to want), no? A man of wanting. Scenario two has two actually different actions. Man of Action! Be well/safe.

RE: Generating Well-Being
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10/30/11 1:25 AM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
So I've basically separated myself from the college social scene, only by way of partying, which was an often occasion (planning during the day, going out at night, getting a bad sleep; all bad for focus). Its only been two days that "I" made the serious decision to be my own man, stand alone, "fight" for what is best for me on a current level unequalled. It was very difficult for me to let go of the perception of social responsibilities. It was my life and letting go of it took an uneasy strength but doing so has led an advancement of progress. "I" am free from the mental tugging of social strings and therefore, am more free to explore what it is to be conscious without social angst (since "I" am letting go of that part of "me").

Things are getting really good like life is actually really easy, every aspect is easy. I am changing habits like figuring out how to eat better with a decreased appetite. I am changing the habits most important for completely smooth days. I am hoping I can change sleeping habits as well but I won't put the cart before the horse. I still feel aversion when I think about doing certain things like upcoming work and random other thoughts come up, which I cling to but its getting easier to let consciousness do its thing without "me" interfering.

The events that "I" need to take care of flash as reminders for my intelligence to read and then do. When I latch onto these reminders is when "me" grows and suffering occurs. Consciousness is happening on its own, "I" am just going to move with it, see it, enjoy it. Nikolai's recent blog post really helped me.

The thing to do now is just continue what I am doing and not subjecting myself to outside pressures. I guess it is just being more sincere. Yea, that realization just happened lol. The self is only willing to let sincerity go so far as it is both ignorant and afraid (often subconsciously) of a better way of moving through the day. To be uneasy and then move toward uneasiness is the wrong direction. To be uneasy and move toward what you are sure will lead to happy and harmlessness is sometimes difficult to discern but important for progression because if you continue moving toward what confuses "you," "you" will continue to do so as habit (creating more "you").

RE: Generating Well-Being
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10/31/11 3:18 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
See whats already here not what your looking for. Whats already here keeps showing deepening, ever-changing, and fascinating intricacies of whats already here.

I still have desire when I see a good-looker but its pretty obvious and I can calm it down quick. I am also afraid of people. Afraid of women in the way that my desires won't work out somehow. I am afraid of just being with a man. These fears just come in small shoots, not a big deal but they are there, which is suffering. I really think that the reason why I am afraid and a source of main suffering is people's perceptions of me.

1. I want people to think I am genius/special because of a actualism/my insights.
2. I want to fit in in someway with women, with men: I don't want to do or say something stupid.
-I don't want people to perceive me as weird, loner etc. which causes fear when out and about doing my normal routine.
These both stimulate fear and desire. I can't wait till I can be free in any action.

RE: Generating Well-Being
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11/4/11 2:44 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
I am at a place where I am just happy being virtually free of malice and sorrow. I feel as if I can go all the way but I am scared to lose my "self" or my self is scared and prohibiting me from going for an actual freedom full force. I know all I have to do is max out felicity since a natural absolutely incredible delight is becoming more prominent in my life and seems to make all perfect in such a happy way. But do I want to end all self, in the end yes, but now, I am hesitant a bit. Any advice? Its as if something is stopping me from making that last final full effort.

RE: Generating Well-Being
Answer
11/4/11 3:31 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
Adam Bieber:
I am at a place where I am just happy being virtually free of malice and sorrow. I feel as if I can go all the way but I am scared to lose my "self" or my self is scared and prohibiting me from going for an actual freedom full force. I know all I have to do is max out felicity since a natural absolutely incredible delight is becoming more prominent in my life and seems to make all perfect in such a happy way. But do I want to end all self, in the end yes, but now, I am hesitant a bit. Any advice? Its as if something is stopping me from making that last final full effort.



As 'you' are fearing your own demise and thus in the same instant strengthening being's survival (via arising as a manifestation of 'fear') then it would seem the best bet would be to convince yourSELF that self-immolation is the direction 'you' wish to move.

One effective way is to focus on the The Sweet Spot.

Notice where fear and stability lay and how from there may not be the best platform to jump towards self-immolation. Perhaps becoming aware of lower down at the sweet spot will allow 'you' to manifest as your own best friend (a friend that conforms to and supports the direction one wishes to go). Let sincerity, naivete and innocence be the constant manifestation of 'you' so that 'you' are 100% on board with the whole self-immolation trip.

Nick

RE: Generating Well-Being
Answer
11/7/11 11:15 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Characteristics of todays extremely enlightening PCE:

1. A palpable almost thick stillness throughout the room and the body/senses.
2. The stomach area, where instinct usually gushes from was entirely empty for much not all of the PCE.
3. There was absolutely no trying of any sort but a continual looking at this moment and its stillness to maintain PCE
4. Realized that PCE is not a big deal in that it isn't some alternate mystical universe but rather a healthier and fully satisfying choice to live. Its living without affect. Its like you are given a choice between living one way or another and choosing the better of the two.
5. Thorough peacefulness
6. Again, there is no trying when within a pce. Not getting to somewhere just staying where you are as is in palpable actuality
7. "Me" and "I" are illusory beliefs and by that fact, can disappear and will disappear while the actual is always present as a fact.
8. Any irritation that stirs is seen by "me" and "I" as suffering (a belief) and then brings more suffering. It is the same with fear, desire, etc. The mind labels the feeling and then that feeling increases.
9. The senses and their objects are facts so stick to paying attention to them rather than an illusory feeling.

What helped today was being really thorough with paying attention to every thought and every feeling and seeing if they were beliefs and thought loops and if they were, that acknowledgement lessened their effect. Also helping was realizing that "I" was scared when "me" felt fear and through this realization, the fear disappeared somehow.

RE: Generating Well-Being
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11/9/11 12:08 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
"I" believe "I" need a girlfriend.

First, I thought I wanted a girlfriend but now I discovered that I believe that "I" need one. I am not ashamed to admit that because it is an instinct that forces me to feel certain ways about things. Knowing "I" believe "I" need one now allows me to take away the need rather than the want, which wasn't the core belief loop.

RE: Generating Well-Being
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11/10/11 1:55 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
With happiness working out of "my" control, each moment is amazing, fascinating, and I truly like being here.

RE: Generating Well-Being
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11/10/11 10:11 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
A Journal Entry written from within a VF:

In times of quiet relaxation, a wave of uncontrolled felicity causes a delight that makes any circumstance both fun, interesting, and giving no need to be anywhere or want anything else. I am currently trying to put this uncontrolled happiness in play in more and more situations like when I am interacting with others (verbally or non-verbally). When around others, a thin mask of affect covers the happiness because the instincts give rise to insecurities or perhaps boredom or resentment of having to be there or do something.

So I wrote down a list of the three main problems I think that I am dealing with, which are boredom and resentment when in my college classes, desire/fear of women including wanting a relationship, and a need/fear to fit in or acclimate to social pressures. With the relationship, I really want a girl by my side just to be friends with as well as intimate but believe that trying will be counter-productive to happy and harmless. So theres fear that a relationship will be counter productive to actualism. Writing this, I also see that applying the actualism method when interacting with people is fine and probably more interesting.

But contrary to small issues, every day is lived as if it was perfect. No feeling is so overwhelming that I cannot consider that moment perfect and there are so many incredibly happy and actual moments during the day that I always look back on the day as being amazing. I play guitar, I study, I go to class, I talk to some people throughout the day in my college environment and everything is really good. When I am conscious of being felicitous and sensuous, it is better.

I am less able to identify with those that I used to hang around with because their priorities just feed desire and aggression etc. But I also have more of an eye for genuinely nice people, actually all people seem nice, but hanging out with the people whose interests I share and every interaction I have with people is always benign, entertaining, spontaneous, and interesting. I guess I am becoming more and more autonomous and am getting used to this continually new lifestyle, where I am not constantly being dragged to places I don't want to go or be with people who talk about uninteresting "self" centered things.

Being an actualist, one definitely is changing their habits and lifestyle to fit a better, more productive one IMO. With this said, I do still have an interest in associating with nice people and having sexual relationships but I feel like I am transitioning to this new lifestyle and in this way, figuring out how to live that is in accordance with my continuous move toward an actual freedom.

My next move is to become increasingly benign aka peaceful and happy in the social world and continue to subtract beliefs/ deal with any instinctual irritation that arises.

RE: Generating Well-Being
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11/12/11 11:18 AM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
I am focusing on being happy and harmless but I also want to have to sexual relationships. Does anybody have any advice on balancing the two?

RE: Generating Well-Being
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11/12/11 12:01 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
It is the wanting that is problematic, not sexual experience. So the simple solution is: stop wanting them, and do what you like.

Of course, it's easier said than done. I would suggest that a balanced approach, for one who wants to balance worldly experience with the path, is to assess how much energy and desire go into thinking about sex and finding a partner, and see if those things can be curtailed, even as you look for a partner.

Another, slightly different way of thinking about this is: to what extent can you approach this in a non-goal oriented way?

RE: Generating Well-Being
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11/13/11 10:37 AM as a reply to End in Sight.
So the simple solution is: stop wanting them, and do what you like.


Seeing how this is impossible or, at least, very likely to produce a neurosis of not wanting to want - Isn't it better to just observe the desire, enjoy the desire, observe whatever may come, enjoy whatever may come?

RE: Generating Well-Being
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11/13/11 1:37 PM as a reply to Jon T.
Jon T:
So the simple solution is: stop wanting them, and do what you like.


Seeing how this is impossible or, at least, very likely to produce a neurosis of not wanting to want - Isn't it better to just observe the desire, enjoy the desire, observe whatever may come, enjoy whatever may come?


What is enjoyable in a desire? Perhaps that is worth investigating.

My suggestion was that Adam might be able to enjoy his situation, despite the desire...acknowledge that he has this desire, acknowledge that it controls his behavior to some extent, and follow it in as goal-free a way as possible (i.e. in a way that minimizes the portion of his experience that is dominated by the desire, even as he acts on it). He could put himself into situations in which he might be more likely to find a partner, but then, while in those situations, just enjoy the experience in a sensuous and felicitous way, not worrying about whether he manages to find a partner or not.

However, even this is easier said than done, and whether it's even possible depends on how Adam's mind works.

RE: Generating Well-Being
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11/13/11 5:19 PM as a reply to End in Sight.
What is enjoyable in a desire? Perhaps that is worth investigating.


Desire is usually pleasant, in my experience. However, this is not what I meant.

My suggestion was that Adam might be able to enjoy his situation, despite the desire...acknowledge that he has this desire, acknowledge that it controls his behavior to some extent, and follow it in as goal-free a way as possible (i.e. in a way that minimizes the portion of his experience that is dominated by the desire, even as he acts on it).


I thought the last sentence in your response may have meant this but it was vague enough that I thought an opportunity to asset my own identity i.e. where i am currently in my practice. I also thought it'd be helpful to Adam. I want to speak to one more thing you wrote.

(i.e. in a way that minimizes the portion of his experience that is dominated by the desire, even as he acts on it).



I think this dominance is the tendency of the desire to control mood, subsequent action and overall purpose. What this boils down to, imo, is the need to learn a real ability to enjoy your emotions and instincts as they are for their own sake and for the sake of others. It is not being disembedded from your experience. It is having a pov where every trip, every fall, every pie in face moment as well as every crowning achievement, every hero's welcome is both hilarious and sublime. Within this ability, imo, must also be cultivated an active appreciation of the sensate world if feelings and ego are to diminish. I am mostly trying to clarify your words, EIS, It is a tricky concept to convey and I can easily see why disassociation is so often pursued especially when the idea of no-self is introduced. It is very much like disassociation but it is not. If anything is associating with the wonder and awe of being human in human society rather than the stress of the identity. But it is also loving your feelings 24/7 without being owned by them.

Another thing just occurred to me. How does this play into the "neither expressing nor repressing" language of the AFT? Imo, this means, sitting down after the day is done or in between tasks and just observing. But Adam, here, is talking about pursuing his desire which is most certainly expressing them. I don't see why you can't observe the expression of desire as long as you have the ability to see within it the wonder and awe of the situation. It may make it more tricky, however. And, frankly, it may be too tricky. Perhaps the better approach is not to act on them at all and just observe the desire in solitude.

But the good news for Adam and his identity is that we don't live in solitude. Going to class and to work and to the store and out with friends are spiked with opportunities to run into someone. And when one is h&h then these run-ins will be extremely attractive to the other person. Furthermore, when one is so full of gladness the tendency to reach out and say hi to person next to you is much greater.

I would keep the expression of your desire, Adam, in this vein. Work on 'neither expressing nor repressing' and observe your mood gradually go from okay to great or wherever it generally is these days. And when opportunity does come your way, observe the identities tendency to take over and observe your own 'neither express nor repress' in action and remain h&h and see whats happens sans agenda.

RE: Generating Well-Being
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11/13/11 6:14 PM as a reply to Jon T.
Thank you both for your comments. "I" am trying to figure out how to have an active social life (by "my" standards, which right now leans toward the stereotypical young person wanting companionship) and still be happy and harmless/gallop toward an actual freedom lol. It seems I should continue "raising the bar" (especially in solitude/when not actively socializing) while also allowing myself to be social in the ways "I" want to.

Edit: Felicity "feels" so good. "I" am just going to continue with lifestyle approach, goal-less awareness, and sensuous attention and do activities that "I" or the actual will "wants".

RE: Generating Well-Being
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11/13/11 10:26 PM as a reply to Adam Bieber.
The self is such a malleable fake. Its kinda hilarious. I can have the social identity of anyone. I'm not taking the self seriously.

RE: Generating Well-Being
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11/14/11 9:04 AM as a reply to Jon T.
Jon T:
I think this dominance is the tendency of the desire to control mood, subsequent action and overall purpose. What this boils down to, imo, is the need to learn a real ability to enjoy your emotions and instincts as they are for their own sake and for the sake of others. It is not being disembedded from your experience. It is having a pov where every trip, every fall, every pie in face moment as well as every crowning achievement, every hero's welcome is both hilarious and sublime. Within this ability, imo, must also be cultivated an active appreciation of the sensate world if feelings and ego are to diminish.


I would agree with this, while emphasizing that there is very fine line between enjoying the emotions and instincts (taking them for what they are without fighting against them, enjoying them in whatever way seems possible) and relishing them. Enjoying them can prevent one from getting hung up on them (and thus, paradoxically, enjoying them can release their hold over one); but relishing them does the opposite.

Jon T:
I am mostly trying to clarify your words, EIS, It is a tricky concept to convey and I can easily see why disassociation is so often pursued especially when the idea of no-self is introduced. It is very much like disassociation but it is not. If anything is associating with the wonder and awe of being human in human society rather than the stress of the identity. But it is also loving your feelings 24/7 without being owned by them.


Thanks. I do not always write in a clear way, unfortunately.

Jon T:
Another thing just occurred to me. How does this play into the "neither expressing nor repressing" language of the AFT? Imo, this means, sitting down after the day is done or in between tasks and just observing. But Adam, here, is talking about pursuing his desire which is most certainly expressing them. I don't see why you can't observe the expression of desire as long as you have the ability to see within it the wonder and awe of the situation. It may make it more tricky, however. And, frankly, it may be too tricky. Perhaps the better approach is not to act on them at all and just observe the desire in solitude.


"Neither express nor repress" is one of my favorite bits of advice from the AFT.

Ultimately, I think it can be applied 100% of the time...in every moment that anything affective comes up (which is every moment, as something subtle is always coming up), just let it bounce around aimlessly in the mind without acting out what it inclines one to do until it exhausts itself and goes away.

About the idea that one can act on desire and then observe the expression...that is sometimes how it will have to be, as (for pragmatic reasons) desire is sometimes acted on, but to the extent that one has acted on a desire, one has stopped following the AFT's advice on this matter.

In general, relating this to Adam's situation...each person will have to decide the extent to which they will allow their desires to control their behavior. Sometimes, some desires will be expressed due to momentary failures in self-control, or due to momentarily letting go of the attempt to control onself. Other times, some desires will be expressed due to realizing that it is more skillful to express them at certain times than not to (if e.g. not expressing them causes one to wallow in unhappiness, which is a grosser expression of desire, and much more problematic). Whatever the case is, it is important for a person to keep applying attentiveness to sensuousness, keep cultivating felicity, keep finding ways to release desire's stranglehold over them.

Here is how I understand "neither express nor repress" in summary:

Expressing: acting on the desire.

Repressing: denying the desire, fighting the desire, not owning up to its existence, ignoring (in the sense of blinding oneself to) the desire, thinking oneself "bad" for having the desire

The ideal: See the desire, let it be without acting on it and without contorting one's mind in neurotic ways in the attempt not to act on it, ultimately attempt to be rid of it without indulging in anything that would count as repression or be related to repression

RE: Generating Well-Being
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11/15/11 12:59 PM as a reply to End in Sight.
The ideal: See the desire, let it be without acting on it and without contorting one's mind in neurotic ways in the attempt not to act on it, ultimately attempt to be rid of it without indulging in anything that would count as repression or be related to repression



Do you count friendly fabrications regarding the desire as "contorting one's mind in neurotic ways in the attempt not to act on it"? If I want to do x and I tell myself to neither repress nor express, is that neurotic? It's a sincere question. Just as sincere and just as weird and very much related, how does the desire for liberation play into this? I'm sitting down observing myself and a strong desire to get up and surf the web pounces within. Another desire rears up to counter: It says to keep observing in order to advance towards liberation. I now have two desires. I can't not express one of them. Here's my solution: I turn on wonder and awe and look at myself as a child might look at a praying mantis and I delight in the quandry. (When things are really clicking, this is the attitude I tend to adopt.)

Yet another question. I can either choose to be attentive towards the sensate or towards feeling. When there is peace within it even if it is a dull slightly unpleasant peace (peace in this instance would be a lack of turmoil but no felicity) I can easily direct attention to the sensate and often generate wonder and awe towards it. But when turmoil is present, attention is consumed by the turmoil. Probably to quell the turmoil with either wonder or skillful fabrications, from there creates peace, from there the sensate can be observed. Okay. Question answered. sorry. keeping paragraph intact in case you have something to add or someone finds it helpful.

RE: Generating Well-Being
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11/15/11 7:31 PM as a reply to Jon T.
Jon T:
The ideal: See the desire, let it be without acting on it and without contorting one's mind in neurotic ways in the attempt not to act on it, ultimately attempt to be rid of it without indulging in anything that would count as repression or be related to repression


Do you count friendly fabrications regarding the desire as "contorting one's mind in neurotic ways in the attempt not to act on it"? If I want to do x and I tell myself to neither repress nor express, is that neurotic? It's a sincere question.


If it's just a reminder, then I see no problem. But, if you tell yourself this and immediately start generating all kinds of thoughts about things, start feeling bad about having the desire, start feeling bad that you have to remind yourself not to express it, start worrying that you're repressing it in some inadvertant way, etc. etc. then that would be neurotic.

Jon T:
Just as sincere and just as weird and very much related, how does the desire for liberation play into this? I'm sitting down observing myself and a strong desire to get up and surf the web pounces within. Another desire rears up to counter: It says to keep observing in order to advance towards liberation. I now have two desires. I can't not express one of them.


If you express the desire for liberation for 3 seconds, and that prevents you from expressing the desire to surf the web for 1 hour, I'd say on a practical level that there's absolutely no problem.

Desires are constantly being generated. Some are "little" and some are "big". Expressing the "big" ones (lust, fear, boredom, hatred, etc.) is a big problem. Expressing the "little" ones is a little problem. The little problems are like a rounding error when you total up the bottom-line of how much desire you're simply observing without reaction, in the context of a consistent practice. If you need to indulge some little desires to keep the practice going well, go for it.

Is the desire for liberation big or little? Depends on whether you experience it in a neurotic way or not. I assume you don't experience it in a neurotic way. (For one who does, some actualist-style investigation may help change that, at which point the desire for liberation can be used skillfully.)

Jon T.:
Here's my solution: I turn on wonder and awe and look at myself as a child might look at a praying mantis and I delight in the quandry. (When things are really clicking, this is the attitude I tend to adopt.)


The quandary is just an imaginary one after all. emoticon

Jon T:
Yet another question. I can either choose to be attentive towards the sensate or towards feeling. When there is peace within it even if it is a dull slightly unpleasant peace (peace in this instance would be a lack of turmoil but no felicity) I can easily direct attention to the sensate and often generate wonder and awe towards it. But when turmoil is present, attention is consumed by the turmoil. Probably to quell the turmoil with either wonder or skillful fabrications, from there creates peace, from there the sensate can be observed.


Sounds good to me.

But...keep this in mind...ultimately, you want to move away from wonder and awe aimed "at" things, to an experience of wonder and awe that is closer to standing by itself (i.e. a property of actuality, not something that you can generate, not something that can be aimed at one object or another). You probably know this already (perhaps this is even what you meant), but I thought it would be good to note that anyway.