Love cured by Insight progress?

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Mike Kich, modified 9 Years ago.

Love cured by Insight progress?

Posts: 170 Join Date: 9/14/10 Recent Posts
I tried to meditate today and I just can't concentrate worth a shit for even 5 minutes without my mind going to her and the difficult reality of not having her, that I'm never going to. I tried again and again to bring my mind to rest but it's just not happening. I know this won't last forever, it hasn't in the past, but nevertheless it feels incredibly shitty. My body even feels sick. One of the reasons I first got into meditation was the idea that I could escape having to feel this way, that I could somehow see through it and really be free from caring. To those post-stream entry people out there, can I achieve this?
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Love cured by Insight progress?

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Mike Kich:
I tried to meditate today and I just can't concentrate worth a shit for even 5 minutes without my mind going to her and the difficult reality of not having her, that I'm never going to. I tried again and again to bring my mind to rest but it's just not happening. I know this won't last forever, it hasn't in the past, but nevertheless it feels incredibly shitty. My body even feels sick. One of the reasons I first got into meditation was the idea that I could escape having to feel this way, that I could somehow see through it and really be free from caring. To those post-stream entry people out there, can I achieve this?



You don't want to escape it if 1st path is the goal. Note it like there is no tomorrow. Dis-identify from it. In insight practice, it ISN'T you. So see its components, does it have a location in the body, note the thoughts associated, note the sense of self that seems to be reacting to it, note the craving, note it all. Break it down into what it is via noting or just paying attention to it. Make a resolution to really pay attention to eh so called "love", lust or whatever. Experiment! Reacting to it and giving it more fuel will hinder progress to 1st path IMO. Learn from it! Dont run away from it!

Nick
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Mike Kich, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Love cured by Insight progress?

Posts: 170 Join Date: 9/14/10 Recent Posts
I am paying attention to it, and that's the problem. I can't NOT pay attention to it. It just hurts, hurts, and hurts more. It doesn't have a specific location in the body, but I'm very aware of what the mental distress is doing to my body symptom-wise (chills running up and down my spine, lethargy, indigestion.) The thoughts associated with it are regret first and foremost that I didn't do as much as I should've, and second wondering what I could do if I just had the almighty guts. I've also noticed the craving...you know what, when I think specifically of that, I feel physically hungry and hollow overlaid over the misery of it. Most of all though there's the fear and intense anticipatory regret that I'll never have gotten to experience as much as I could have with her, and the fear that I'll never entirely get over it, that I'll think about her forever and that I'll have this hunger forever, that if I could just change things somehow I would be far happier. Lust isn't there in the conventional sense really, this isn't the same thing as a frat boy feeling disappointment that he didn't get to score.
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Jane Laurel Carrington, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Love cured by Insight progress?

Posts: 196 Join Date: 12/29/10 Recent Posts
Mike Kich:
The thoughts associated with it are regret first and foremost that I didn't do as much as I should've, and second wondering what I could do if I just had the almighty guts. ... Most of all though there's the fear and intense anticipatory regret that I'll never have gotten to experience as much as I could have with her, and the fear that I'll never entirely get over it, that I'll think about her forever and that I'll have this hunger forever, that if I could just change things somehow I would be far happier. Lust isn't there in the conventional sense really, this isn't the same thing as a frat boy feeling disappointment that he didn't get to score.


Sounds to me like you should just try asking her out, or if you just can't then maybe focus in your noting practice on the fear rather than the unfulfilled desire and the craving. The one thing guys say creates the most agony for them is fear of rejection. While I haven't been in precisely your situation, I do know a lot about fear. You're also creating in your own mind a projection of a permanent state of regret, whereas one of the three characteristics is impermanence (just a reminder).
C C C, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Love cured by Insight progress?

Posts: 953 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
I'd agree with Jane (you knew I would!).

I'd suggest first getting in touch with the fear that underlies the hurt. A good time for this is 3am when you wake up and can't get back to sleep, mind ruminating. Then allow yourself to switch off the body response. Relax deeply in other words. The thoughts will keep appearing and trying to make your body react and your heart jump out of your chest. Just keep repeating the relaxation, over and over and over. Don't try to do anything with the thoughts.

To be reacting this way over lost love means that you must have a lot of fear of abandonment, and this makes you clingy and needy and overly attentive. All these things are a huge turn off for women. Treat the fear, then ask her out again, in person not over the phone. Don't ask her out on a "big date", that's too much. Just suggest going for a walk or something un-romantic. Let her feel your fearless attitude and within minutes the attraction will start up all over again. She will be all over you.
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Mike Kich, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Love cured by Insight progress?

Posts: 170 Join Date: 9/14/10 Recent Posts
No you don't understand. I only have today left in Germany, and then I'm flying back to the States tomorrow; therefore I'll probably never get to see her again. She had already rejected me once when I told her I liked her, but she wanted to be my friend, and I spent most of the rest of the semester up until now trying to avoid her and forget her. This was especially difficult because she happens to be part of a small but tight-knit group of friends I have here, so she's not really avoidable (it was stupid in the first place that I told her outright that I liked her, especially as early on as I did and the way I did, but there you have it, and alcohol's loosening of inhibition never terribly helps either). I managed to avoid her for the most part up to this weekend but she seemed determined to hang out with me, and we even took a trip together; I should re-iterate here that I'm simply not the type of person who can avoid becoming attached easily. You're probably right about the fear of abandonment bit, though...oh well. Anyway, I ended up asking her again once I couldn't stand it any longer at the end, because to say I was confused by that point would be nominated for biggest understatement of the year award. She laughed and told me we were just friends, but then began to tell me that, well, she wouldn't say "just", and I stopped her there. It should be obvious without me having to explain it why I stopped her there, why I told her that although I liked being her friend and just being around her I cannot be, and why I just said goodbye to her after that and walked off. My take on it is that she really does value me as a close friend but had determined to just slam-dunk me into the friend-zone and ignore the rest, something which I cannot do. Anywho, there you have it, much drama and un-clarity (and I'm sure Daniel will be raging in his office chair about none of this paragraph containing anything but content, very very little to do with insight as I'm laying it out at this point; oh well is what I say to that.)

On a different note, I entirely agree with T.J.'s assessment of things; there's no way to really run away from re-observation anyway and so it's just a matter of time until I do hit stream-entry, probably very unexpectedly. I feel pretty confident of that.
C C C, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Love cured by Insight progress?

Posts: 953 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Yeh not a good move to tell a girl you like her. Not until you're ready to marry her, lol.

You say: "she wouldn't say "just", and I stopped her there. It should be obvious without me having to explain it why I stopped her there",

No I don't get it. Why did you stop her? Sounds to me like she was flirting with you and wanted you to escalate things. You could have moved in closer at that point, touched her, given her the bedroom eyes, whatever feels natural for you. You could have replied "yeh I know what you mean, we have some sort of sexual tension happening. It's probably driving you crazy even being here with me" with a bit of a smile. She'll laugh, and so on... I know that probably doesn't sound like it's something you'd do, but that's why people use alcohol! So they can say crap like that!! Haha.

From what you have written, I'd say with a high degree of confidence she wanted more (more than friendship). That's my honest opinion, not trying to pump you up or anything. Deep down you know that too - she wants you. Fear of break up or loss is stopping you. So your only decision is whether you let fear rule your life.

I have things that scare me. I use relaxation as posted above.
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Jane Laurel Carrington, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Love cured by Insight progress?

Posts: 196 Join Date: 12/29/10 Recent Posts
Sorry to hear that. At least you did try; I guess your regrets are that you didn't try hard enough, and might have done more. But now, I agree, is the time to concentrate on your practice. Metta. Laurel
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Mike Kich, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Love cured by Insight progress?

Posts: 170 Join Date: 9/14/10 Recent Posts
Yup, correct. Long story short, followed CCC's advice, was daring: turns out she's just not a very nice girl. Good riddance.
TJ Broccoli, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Love cured by Insight progress?

Posts: 93 Join Date: 3/1/10 Recent Posts
Mike Kich:
I am paying attention to it, and that's the problem. I can't NOT pay attention to it. It just hurts, hurts, and hurts more. It doesn't have a specific location in the body, but I'm very aware of what the mental distress is doing to my body symptom-wise (chills running up and down my spine, lethargy, indigestion.)

hello mike,

what you're calling "the problem" here i would call "navigation through the dark night"!
(d.n. seems most likely in your case, i remember seeing some of your other recent posts).

for some people it can help to ask the question "why is this not good enough?"
the question could either settle things a bit and help in the acceptance of things as they are, or asking it may churn up more and more reasons why nothing is ok--everywhere you look and however you look at your life, it's "not ok" and existentially unsettling. if that happens it's not a bad thing either, because it might mean that you're moving forward through the dark night stages and are approaching or going through the last bit of it--the worst hellish shit hole on the path (re-observation), and the more you look around and find that everything is shitty, the more you think that "this kind of blind, suffering life is no longer acceptable, not even for one more minute." despite how bad it feels, or because of how bad it feels, this could give you enough momentum to not live another day of your life without turning up the awareness (to the breath, sensations, whatever is arising) throughout your daily living and your sits, at least as much as you can possibly do in each circumstance and each moment. this "enough of this stinky life" fed-up feeling around the later stages of the dark night is a critical point that makes many people rev up the intensity in practice, often resulting in a successful push towards stream entry, whether or not they have info about where they're at.

i would say that in your case, it would be best to keep paying attention, look around at everything in your life and notice how awful and "not-ok" things are. look at the darkest side of things! see how everything is unsatisfying, makes you miserable, is lacking in liberating insight, and how crappy and dissonant the energy feels, and how life ought to be better than this, how it's just unacceptable that being alive should continue to be this crappy. THEREFORE there is no other sensible option left but to apply, sharpen, and refine attention and make progress ASAP. the way of looking that will get you through and beyond this period is constant attention to only the sensations arising in the present moment, not the stories that seem linked to them.

so IF what makes things awful, yucky, painful, annoying, intolerable, not-ok and physically uncomfortable is just plain paying attention to the bare sensations/conditions/feelings/reactions that come up, by all means keep doing it! pay attention to your present-moment experience constantly, vigilantly, and with highest frequency possible, without evaluating and analyzing the who-what-when-why-how of your life stories. when you unintentionally get caught up in your autobiography, simply notice it and move on. it may need to get worse until something inside gives--either exhaustion causes something to let go in a new way, or you figure out some new way to surrender, or something inside lets go of some kind of resistance that's too abstract and energetically-rooted be dealt with rationally. if and when things are too unstable, too rocky for you to maintain awareness, stick to the plain and simple breath for a while until there is enough calm to investigate. then pay relentless attention to all the uncomfortable sensations. surely when you get over this hump there will be relief--and tons of relief if you really happen to be approaching re-observation and early equanimity.

when i went through a similar period i couldn't resolve anything rationally either. the only slight temporary relief was resting on the breath, and the only way out was bare attention, attention, and more attention towards sensations, through all the hell, discomfort, dissonance, despite the (typical dark night) feeling that there is something seriously wrong with practice as well as life in general.

hope this helps!
jill
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Yadid B, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Love cured by Insight progress?

Posts: 258 Join Date: 9/11/09 Recent Posts
On a personal note,
I posted something similiar on here a year ago, when I had a major crush on whose now my girlfriend who I live with..
Love hurts, doesn't it emoticon

Well, now that we are together I sure dont have that suffering, but being in a relationship carries its own problems.. so.. um.. I don't really have a point here, just sharing.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Love cured by Insight progress?

Posts: 2198 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
Mike Kich:
I tried to meditate today and I just can't concentrate worth a shit for even 5 minutes without my mind going to her and the difficult reality of not having her, that I'm never going to. I tried again and again to bring my mind to rest but it's just not happening. I know this won't last forever, it hasn't in the past, but nevertheless it feels incredibly shitty. My body even feels sick. One of the reasons I first got into meditation was the idea that I could escape having to feel this way, that I could somehow see through it and really be free from caring. To those post-stream entry people out there, can I achieve this?

well, by gaining stream entry you will definitely have an insight into the whole thing, and it will probably lose some of its edge, if not the whole thing just being looked at and thinking 'oh that was silly' and then it evaporating.

that being said, attachment still abounds after stream entry and even after 4th path. either way you have to consciously let it go somehow, but that'll be a lot easier after stream entry.

EDIT: also, in Equanimity nyana, it probably just won't bother you =P. might be useful as a motivating factor to keep progressing. sit there and note it and note it. you seem to understand it's symptoms based on your description, just keep noting them and note the reactions to them and note how that perpetuates them more, etc.
TJ Broccoli, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Love cured by Insight progress?

Posts: 93 Join Date: 3/1/10 Recent Posts
Mike Kich:
I tried to meditate today and I just can't concentrate worth a shit for even 5 minutes without my mind going to her and the difficult reality of not having her, that I'm never going to. I tried again and again to bring my mind to rest but it's just not happening. I know this won't last forever, it hasn't in the past, but nevertheless it feels incredibly shitty. My body even feels sick. One of the reasons I first got into meditation was the idea that I could escape having to feel this way, that I could somehow see through it and really be free from caring. To those post-stream entry people out there, can I achieve this?


of course you can achieve it, but unfortunately the way to "escape" it is to confront it at the most unpleasant level, at the level where you have to investigate the bare sensations and crappy energetic phenomena relating to it without the solace of emotional rationalizations, explanations, justification, blame, regrets, or predictions which might give you a comfortable illusion of certainty, security, or of knowing and being in control. you probably know that already.