Insight into emptiness - Discussion
Kalle Spolander:
There has to be more. Maybe not insights but more stability. I don't live in this insight. I can only stay there for a little while and then I get caught up in my stories and identify with my thoughts. I feel like I've ionly glimpsed the truth and I have an intuition that I still have a long way to go.
As a side note this is exactly the progression outlined in the tradition that Harris and Kelly are drawing from, which is Dzogchen. The progression goes in three steps: introduce/recognize the empty nature of mind, train in stabilizing that recognition, use that recognition to liberate any and all fixations that seem to arise. This is drawn from the Three Statements that Strike the Heart, a three-sentence summary of the entire Dzogchen path.
Loch Kelly calls this second step "Dog Zen" rather than Dzogchen, because the instructions are "Sit (in the recognition of emptiness)... Stay... Stay... Stay..."
The late, great master Chogyal Namkhai Norbu gives pragmatic advice for how to do this. First, stop what you're doing and recognize the emptiness you saw before. Then, do some simple activity, like getting up and walking around, until you notice that recognition has vanished. At that point, stop, re-recognize, and resume activity. As you get more and more used to this you can try maintaining that samadhi with more and more complex tasks. In particular, focus on what types of things seem to fall outside of the scope of the nature of mind which cause you to lose recognition. The trick is that literally no experience is outside of this scope, and so whatever you exclude is wherever the insight isn't integrated. So, keep integrating the insight with more and more of your experience until it becomes all-inclusive.
Matthew:
Kalle Spolander:
There has to be more. Maybe not insights but more stability. I don't live in this insight. I can only stay there for a little while and then I get caught up in my stories and identify with my thoughts. I feel like I've ionly glimpsed the truth and I have an intuition that I still have a long way to go.
As a side note this is exactly the progression outlined in the tradition that Harris and Kelly are drawing from, which is Dzogchen. The progression goes in three steps: introduce/recognize the empty nature of mind, train in stabilizing that recognition, use that recognition to liberate any and all fixations that seem to arise. This is drawn from the Three Statements that Strike the Heart, a three-sentence summary of the entire Dzogchen path.
Loch Kelly calls this second step "Dog Zen" rather than Dzogchen, because the instructions are "Sit (in the recognition of emptiness)... Stay... Stay... Stay..."
The late, great master Chogyal Namkhai Norbu gives pragmatic advice for how to do this. First, stop what you're doing and recognize the emptiness you saw before. Then, do some simple activity, like getting up and walking around, until you notice that recognition has vanished. At that point, stop, re-recognize, and resume activity. As you get more and more used to this you can try maintaining that samadhi with more and more complex tasks. In particular, focus on what types of things seem to fall outside of the scope of the nature of mind which cause you to lose recognition. The trick is that literally no experience is outside of this scope, and so whatever you exclude is wherever the insight isn't integrated. So, keep integrating the insight with more and more of your experience until it becomes all-inclusive.
That is so unbelievably helpful. I don't know any of the theory or terminology. I've basically just started doing it after hearing instructions. What you're eating makes so much sense and is super helpful. I really appreciate that you took the time to outline this for me
Matthew:
Kalle Spolander:
There has to be more. Maybe not insights but more stability. I don't live in this insight. I can only stay there for a little while and then I get caught up in my stories and identify with my thoughts. I feel like I've ionly glimpsed the truth and I have an intuition that I still have a long way to go.
From where I see it, your answer is in your question here - you don't live in the insight, you "get it" and then "lose it" by re-identifying with the old patterns. So, naturally, the next step is to learn how to live from that insight all the time. Make your default that place of total radiant unthingable-ness.
As a side note this is exactly the progression outlined in the tradition that Harris and Kelly are drawing from, which is Dzogchen. The progression goes in three steps: introduce/recognize the empty nature of mind, train in stabilizing that recognition, use that recognition to liberate any and all fixations that seem to arise. This is drawn from the Three Statements that Strike the Heart, a three-sentence summary of the entire Dzogchen path.
Loch Kelly calls this second step "Dog Zen" rather than Dzogchen, because the instructions are "Sit (in the recognition of emptiness)... Stay... Stay... Stay..."
The late, great master Chogyal Namkhai Norbu gives pragmatic advice for how to do this. First, stop what you're doing and recognize the emptiness you saw before. Then, do some simple activity, like getting up and walking around, until you notice that recognition has vanished. At that point, stop, re-recognize, and resume activity. As you get more and more used to this you can try maintaining that samadhi with more and more complex tasks. In particular, focus on what types of things seem to fall outside of the scope of the nature of mind which cause you to lose recognition. The trick is that literally no experience is outside of this scope, and so whatever you exclude is wherever the insight isn't integrated. So, keep integrating the insight with more and more of your experience until it becomes all-inclusive.
Just to note that this technique of establishing this seeing is also a feature of Soto Zen, the tradition I now work in. I worked in Dzogchen for 20 years, and really only left because my teacher, the late Lama Tharchin Rinpoche passed away. The two traditions at their base are very compatible.
Kalle Spolander:
There has to be more. Maybe not insights but more stability. I don't live in this insight. I can only stay there for a little while and then I get caught up in my stories and identify with my thoughts. I feel like I've ionly glimpsed the truth and I have an intuition that I still have a long way to go.
This is It. The thinking "there has to be more" is it. And that dilemma is It "maybe not insight but more stability". "I don't live in this insight" is also This. "a little bit but then get bought up in stories" is also This.There is Nothing Other Than This. No matter what face or appearance or feel It has. It can be Jhanic bliss, it can be an irritating itch on the nose, it can be a thought. This Is It! Unless you are utter unconscious
then myriads of things can't spring into consciousness.
I read some replies here and find it interesting.
Apparently one can Improve on THIS one can tell IT to sit, stay, stay, stay ...
What is staying?
That very thinking is also Nothing Other Than This. This is to Get the Cosmic Joke. THIS is it!
THIS, meaning sensate conscious experience flickering in THIS. IT is utterly Complete. Nothing to add, nothing to take away. Nothing to improve.
Yes. It's so simple it's Mind-boggling Exactly HA!
HA!
HA!
(this is the time to be shmacked by a Kyosaku) SHMACK!!!
Apparently one can Improve on THIS
one can tell IT to sit, stay, stay, stay ... What is staying?
That very thinking is also Nothing Other Than This. This is to Get the Cosmic Joke. THIS is it!
THIS, meaning sensate conscious experience flickering in THIS. IT is utterly Complete. Nothing to add, nothing to take away. Nothing to improve.
Yes. It's so simple it's Mind-boggling
Exactly HA! HA!
HA!
(this is the time to be shmacked by a Kyosaku) SHMACK!!!
Papa Che Dusko:
I read some replies here and find it interesting.
Apparently one can Improve on THIS one can tell IT to sit, stay, stay, stay ...
What is staying?
That very thinking is also Nothing Other Than This. This is to Get the Cosmic Joke. THIS is it!
THIS, meaning sensate conscious experience flickering in THIS. IT is utterly Complete. Nothing to add, nothing to take away. Nothing to improve.
Yes. It's so simple it's Mind-boggling Exactly HA!
HA!
HA!
(this is the time to be shmacked by a Kyosaku) SHMACK!!!
Apparently one can Improve on THIS
one can tell IT to sit, stay, stay, stay ... What is staying?
That very thinking is also Nothing Other Than This. This is to Get the Cosmic Joke. THIS is it!
THIS, meaning sensate conscious experience flickering in THIS. IT is utterly Complete. Nothing to add, nothing to take away. Nothing to improve.
Yes. It's so simple it's Mind-boggling
Exactly HA! HA!
HA!
(this is the time to be shmacked by a Kyosaku) SHMACK!!!
If we play fast and loose, we can provisionally define dharma roughly as “the practice of looking at reality.” I was emphasizing “the practice of looking at,” and here you’re emphasizing “reality.”
[Darth Vader voice] Join me, and together we can rule samsara as one guy on a forum and another guy on a forum.
Matthew:
Papa Che Dusko:
I read some replies here and find it interesting.
Apparently one can Improve on THIS one can tell IT to sit, stay, stay, stay ...
What is staying?
That very thinking is also Nothing Other Than This. This is to Get the Cosmic Joke. THIS is it!
THIS, meaning sensate conscious experience flickering in THIS. IT is utterly Complete. Nothing to add, nothing to take away. Nothing to improve.
Yes. It's so simple it's Mind-boggling Exactly HA!
HA!
HA!
(this is the time to be shmacked by a Kyosaku) SHMACK!!!
Apparently one can Improve on THIS
one can tell IT to sit, stay, stay, stay ... What is staying?
That very thinking is also Nothing Other Than This. This is to Get the Cosmic Joke. THIS is it!
THIS, meaning sensate conscious experience flickering in THIS. IT is utterly Complete. Nothing to add, nothing to take away. Nothing to improve.
Yes. It's so simple it's Mind-boggling
Exactly HA! HA!
HA!
(this is the time to be shmacked by a Kyosaku) SHMACK!!!
If we play fast and loose, we can provisionally define dharma roughly as “the practice of looking at reality.” I was emphasizing “the practice of looking at,” and here you’re emphasizing “reality.”
[Darth Vader voice] Join me, and together we can rule samsara as one guy on a forum and another guy on a forum.
The wisest thing to do is ignore me totally
I just went to fill up my dogs dry food and came back to him with a plate full of wood pellets!!! 
The bag with dog food is beside the bag with wood pellets (for our heating system). My mind as of late is just not being helpfull at all; forgetting where my wallet and iPhone are! Where my keys are! Feeding the dog with wood pellets! Whats next? Forgetting to set the clock alarm for work!!! Jeez
Kalle er du Svensk? I'm in Denmark lived in Sweden for many years.
anyway, this is the talk that tipped me over. This Realisation sure is Cognitive. Something to simply get.
have a listen as Kenneth is also talking about the dilemma on Improving on THIS have a good one!
https://art19.com/shows/deconstructing-yourself/episodes/64e20bae-0aa2-451c-b0a8-119049c64078
anyway, this is the talk that tipped me over. This Realisation sure is Cognitive. Something to simply get.
have a listen as Kenneth is also talking about the dilemma on Improving on THIS
have a good one! https://art19.com/shows/deconstructing-yourself/episodes/64e20bae-0aa2-451c-b0a8-119049c64078
Papa Che Dusko:
Kalle er du Svensk? I'm in Denmark lived in Sweden for many years.
anyway, this is the talk that tipped me over. This Realisation sure is Cognitive. Something to simply get.
have a listen as Kenneth is also talking about the dilemma on Improving on THIS have a good one!
https://art19.com/shows/deconstructing-yourself/episodes/64e20bae-0aa2-451c-b0a8-119049c64078
anyway, this is the talk that tipped me over. This Realisation sure is Cognitive. Something to simply get.
have a listen as Kenneth is also talking about the dilemma on Improving on THIS
have a good one! https://art19.com/shows/deconstructing-yourself/episodes/64e20bae-0aa2-451c-b0a8-119049c64078
Yes I am but I've lived in America for over a decade.
I'll listen to it on my way to work! Thanks!
Kalle Spolander:
Now I can see emptiness on command with a bit of concentration and I can see he selflessness and all that and it's almost getting to be a bit predictable. Like yeah yeah yeah, it's all empty and great. I get it. What's next? I know that this insight hasn't stabilized and I know that whatever this is isn't it.
What is this that I'm going through? Does anyone have any advice for helpful strategies at this stage? What can I expect next?
What is this that I'm going through? Does anyone have any advice for helpful strategies at this stage? What can I expect next?
Concept of "emptiness" is oversimplification invented to not flood people with nitty gritty details which would be too much for them at first. People always had short attention spans and you also need to package your product in nice package in order to sell it. Just look at us, inside we are nothing like what we appear from outside.
The very fact of being able to experience this emptiness means that you are somewhat inside but this is not yet the level where you really work with structures that make up your mind or can really solve issues directly.
The process that made whatever you went through to get to this "emptiness" that you mention is creating in your mind layers something which is basically the same thing as the one you went through. This process is not even something you need to stop but it is something to be aware of and you need to act accordingly. After all you already proven to have the skill to go through, right?
What next? Check some mind stuffy stuff, try something out, poke here and there... you know, insight meditation, get insight through investigation
Ni Nurta:
Kalle Spolander:
Now I can see emptiness on command with a bit of concentration and I can see he selflessness and all that and it's almost getting to be a bit predictable. Like yeah yeah yeah, it's all empty and great. I get it. What's next? I know that this insight hasn't stabilized and I know that whatever this is isn't it.
What is this that I'm going through? Does anyone have any advice for helpful strategies at this stage? What can I expect next?
What is this that I'm going through? Does anyone have any advice for helpful strategies at this stage? What can I expect next?
Concept of "emptiness" is oversimplification invented to not flood people with nitty gritty details which would be too much for them at first. People always had short attention spans and you also need to package your product in nice package in order to sell it. Just look at us, inside we are nothing like what we appear from outside.
The very fact of being able to experience this emptiness means that you are somewhat inside but this is not yet the level where you really work with structures that make up your mind or can really solve issues directly.
The process that made whatever you went through to get to this "emptiness" that you mention is creating in your mind layers something which is basically the same thing as the one you went through. This process is not even something you need to stop but it is something to be aware of and you need to act accordingly. After all you already proven to have the skill to go through, right?
What next? Check some mind stuffy stuff, try something out, poke here and there... you know, insight meditation, get insight through investigation
TELL ALL THE TRUTH BUT TELL IT SLANT
BY EMILY DICKINSON
Tell all the truth but tell it slant —
Success in Circuit lies
Too bright for our infirm Delight
The Truth's superb surprise
As Lightning to the Children eased
With explanation kind
The Truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind —
For now, stabilising and extending these states is great work to do. But both the suttas and some Tibetan traditions will note that eventually you go beyond them. Not beyond in the sense of an even more transcendant sublime state, but beyond in the sense of not needing even the emptiness. This blowing out of the flame of self, the final destruction of ignorance, the switching off of the sankhara generating mechanism, still remains. Then you are liberated whether you are angry or happy, expanded or contracted, absorbed or scattered. Free to be human. Free to be absorbed in emptiness whenever you want too.
Ni Nurta notes what to do when you are ready (no rush yet)
"The process that made whatever you went through to get to this "emptiness" that you mention is creating in your mind layers something which is basically the same thing as the one you went through. This process is not even something you need to stop but it is something to be aware of and you need to act accordingly. After all you already proven to have the skill to go through, right? .... What next? Check some mind stuffy stuff, try something out, poke here and there... you know, insight meditation, get insight through investigation"
Except I would say you do eventually need to stop the other process Ni Nurta is pointing to. After stabilising the emptiness, you can look inside to find the thing that still supports the ego. See if you can work out what is still driving the subtle remaining conceit, restless, ignorance, and craving for emptiness. You can look for the surprising and shocking moment of insight and use its plasticity to purify and let go of what you find. To purify the final delusion ... but all that comes later, after the emptiness is stable.
Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary!
Malcolm
Ni Nurta notes what to do when you are ready (no rush yet)
"The process that made whatever you went through to get to this "emptiness" that you mention is creating in your mind layers something which is basically the same thing as the one you went through. This process is not even something you need to stop but it is something to be aware of and you need to act accordingly. After all you already proven to have the skill to go through, right? .... What next? Check some mind stuffy stuff, try something out, poke here and there... you know, insight meditation, get insight through investigation
"Except I would say you do eventually need to stop the other process Ni Nurta is pointing to. After stabilising the emptiness, you can look inside to find the thing that still supports the ego. See if you can work out what is still driving the subtle remaining conceit, restless, ignorance, and craving for emptiness. You can look for the surprising and shocking moment of insight and use its plasticity to purify and let go of what you find. To purify the final delusion ... but all that comes later, after the emptiness is stable.
Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary!
Malcolm
Matthew:
Obviously your method and Advaita Vedanta are not identical, but the model seems a bit similar, no?
I read only one Advaita Vedanta text, Ramana Maharshi "Nān Yār?" but I liked it quite a lot
To me three charactericstics of all phenomena are:
- permament - nothing is lost, everything in the universe can be reexperienced any number of times and restored
- blissful - everything in the universe is driven by pleasure and for pleasure
- self - everything is one and the same being, one self, and any of the apsect of this self can manifest (be experienced) by any other aspect (place/time) including ability to experience "experience all experiences at all times", freely and without effort
Nibbana I can also experience whenever I want as some other states I consider to be enlightenment-grade.
The practice I described took heavily from practice of synesthesia that I did for years, more so than any other practice. The one I described earlier is however synthesis of different things and it was trying to actually describe what was working in them that led to its conception. In itself it is something else and with its associated enlightenment mind state for which my best name would be "reference experience" or maybe "temporal reference experience" but I like the first name better because second bring conceit to mind. Maybe "momentary reference experience" would fit more because conceit changes to river flow and then stops.
I am somewhat guilty because when writing about it I actually for the most part did different practice, the one which result in "experience of all experiences at all times" which itself is actually pretty much Advaita Vedanta derived, like finding reference experience of timeless self which is everything including even Nibbana but frankly because non-experience is like not existing when there is expeirience also overshadowed by it.
So from a buddhist point of view, the trick is to be awake while you are crying, or laughing, or angry. 'Cos that's just the aggregates, right? No need for passion obsession. But no need for resistance obsession either. Plenty seem to miss the second point.
This reminds me very much of a threedimensional model of awakening that I put together in the mindrace after a repeat fruition after SE. I still like the idea, but my way of presenting it at the time was very frantic in a way that yours isn't. I'll see if I can find it and if I want to link to it or rather just forget the whole thing.
I'll see if I can find it and if I want to link to it or rather just forget the whole thing.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Imagine a cube. It has three dimensions...
I like this a lot
The eight corners of the cube do not really exist, because that would require that the sides were actually there and that there was finity, that is, something outside of the cube. There isn’t.
Actually I would argue that there is something outside.
It need not to be dependent on direction though and be the same in any direction.
Ni Nurta:
Matthew:
Obviously your method and Advaita Vedanta are not identical, but the model seems a bit similar, no?
I read only one Advaita Vedanta text, Ramana Maharshi "Nān Yār?" but I liked it quite a lot
To me three charactericstics of all phenomena are:
- permament - nothing is lost, everything in the universe can be reexperienced any number of times and restored
- blissful - everything in the universe is driven by pleasure and for pleasure
- self - everything is one and the same being, one self, and any of the apsect of this self can manifest (be experienced) by any other aspect (place/time) including ability to experience "experience all experiences at all times", freely and without effort
Nibbana I can also experience whenever I want as some other states I consider to be enlightenment-grade.
This is, of course, the exact opposite of what the buddha preached as the three marks of existence (phenomena). By ni's deliberate contrivance no doubt.
A perversion of the dharma. Like a black mass.
terry
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
The dharma is already perverted when put into words. Emptiness is empty.
I guess everything the buddha said is perverted, then. Thus I have heard only perversion. Yes, that is the message you are resonating with.
I'm sorry...
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
The dharma is already perverted when put into words. Emptiness is empty.
I guess everything the buddha said is perverted, then. Thus I have heard only perversion. Yes, that is the message you are resonating with.
I'm sorry...
All perversions are conditioned.
terry:
This is, of course, the exact opposite of what the buddha preached as the three marks of existence (phenomena). By ni's deliberate contrivance no doubt.
A perversion of the dharma. Like a black mass.
A perversion of the dharma. Like a black mass.
Dharma have wider scope than what Gautama Buddha was teaching... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_religions
Buddha merely pointed that once we relinquish attachment to things mind get rest and things naturally fall in place.
It is however merely different way of achieving the same end result which is liberation from dukkha, albeit with different after-taste to it.
One should according to Buddha general wisdom and his recommendation not really get attached to the specific after-taste of enlightenment... right?
If what I say is dharma is not dharma then let Shiva himself come and strike me down!
Like a black mass.
Like black hole?
Thanks, that is the nicest thing anyone told me today
Ni Nurta:
terry:
This is, of course, the exact opposite of what the buddha preached as the three marks of existence (phenomena). By ni's deliberate contrivance no doubt.
A perversion of the dharma. Like a black mass.
A perversion of the dharma. Like a black mass.
Dharma have wider scope than what Gautama Buddha was teaching... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_religions
Buddha merely pointed that once we relinquish attachment to things mind get rest and things naturally fall in place.
It is however merely different way of achieving the same end result which is liberation from dukkha, albeit with different after-taste to it.
One should according to Buddha general wisdom and his recommendation not really get attached to the specific after-taste of enlightenment... right?
If what I say is dharma is not dharma then let Shiva himself come and strike me down!
Like a black mass.
Like black hole?
Thanks, that is the nicest thing anyone told me today
You have been stricken down, you just haven't realized it yet.
Go with god, my friend.
terry:
You have been stricken down, you just haven't realized it yet.
Go with god, my friend.
Go with god, my friend.
I had my conversation with God about suffering and the solution to it.
Actually it seems all gods agree on the basics
Ni Nurta:
terry:
You have been stricken down, you just haven't realized it yet.
Go with god, my friend.
Go with god, my friend.
I had my conversation with God about suffering and the solution to it.
Actually it seems all gods agree on the basics
That's funny, I don't remember talking to you about suffering and the solution to it.
God
Kalle Spolander:
Matthew:
I had a somewhat similar realization as Ni Nurta recently, which is that we're always setting up barriers for ourselves to jump over, and saying we won't let ourselves be happy until we make the jump. We defer our happiness until we get to some special point. Practice itself is often one such barrier, more often than I tended to think. The erecting of these walls begins with the obvious stuff, "once I get this shiny thing.... once I get that promotion.... once I measure up to my parents' expectations.... then I'm allowed to be happy." Buddha comes along and says "hey, all that stuff is impermanent, therefore stressful, therefore not good to pin your happiness on, ya dig?"
So the narrative changes to, "once I understand the truth of the universe... once I get that path attainment... once I work really hard to drop this illusion of self.... then I'll let myself be happy." We (or at least I) rationalize this by unconsciously thinking, ah, well these things are not actually impermanent, they're exceptions. But the principle of what's going on for us (or at least me) is the same. I lose my in-the-moment happiness in favor of the mere idea of future happiness, if only I could get that next thing. It becomes almost about deserving it. I defer my present happiness just the same.
This is closely related to the practice of moment-to-moment mindfulness, which aims to stop us from defering our awareness too. However, if mindfulness becomes instrumental, ie a tool to achieve something else in the future, it too can be a way of defering happiness. "Once I get really good at noting...."
Even though this sounds unrelated on the surface, I feel it's related underneath. No barriers to leap = nothing to stop. Nothing to measure up to before you're allowed to be happy and awake. Just stop stopping yourself by pushing it into a conditional future.
So the narrative changes to, "once I understand the truth of the universe... once I get that path attainment... once I work really hard to drop this illusion of self.... then I'll let myself be happy." We (or at least I) rationalize this by unconsciously thinking, ah, well these things are not actually impermanent, they're exceptions. But the principle of what's going on for us (or at least me) is the same. I lose my in-the-moment happiness in favor of the mere idea of future happiness, if only I could get that next thing. It becomes almost about deserving it. I defer my present happiness just the same.
This is closely related to the practice of moment-to-moment mindfulness, which aims to stop us from defering our awareness too. However, if mindfulness becomes instrumental, ie a tool to achieve something else in the future, it too can be a way of defering happiness. "Once I get really good at noting...."
Even though this sounds unrelated on the surface, I feel it's related underneath. No barriers to leap = nothing to stop. Nothing to measure up to before you're allowed to be happy and awake. Just stop stopping yourself by pushing it into a conditional future.
Damn dude, I just had a mind-gasm. I completely understand what you mean. I need to really digest this. Thank you for sharing. I will take this to heart and try to implement it starting this second.
From an insight into emptiness to a mind-gasm, heart rejuvenation, and intensified desire for liberation. Nice work, kids.
Kalle Spolander:
Yeah and I've had ever bigger insights since. Basically I'm probably going to lose my job and all my belongings in this crisis. Talk about Dukkha. But a few weeks ago in deep meditation everything clicked again. Everything is just the way it is and needs to be. It can't be any other way than this. Enlightenment isn't that thing over there. It's this thing right here. This anxiety, this worry, this back pain. This sensation and this thought right here in this moment. Everything is literally exactly like it is and not more. That's the whole point. Corona too. It's just the universe unfolding.
Once I had this insight I felt this massive relief and cried tears of joy.
A few days later I was bickering with my wife and irritable all day. It is very difficult to let go of the attachment of deep insight.
This spiritual journey is long and crooked and takes you places you didn't even know were possible.
Once I had this insight I felt this massive relief and cried tears of joy.
A few days later I was bickering with my wife and irritable all day. It is very difficult to let go of the attachment of deep insight.
This spiritual journey is long and crooked and takes you places you didn't even know were possible.
Im now crawling the initial stages yet again with lots of neck stiffness, back pain, throat pain, migrane like headackes and general agitation with it all. Im on the ride again. See you on the Joke Side some time down the path.Good on you. Now only try not to get gored by a cow protecting her calf
Papa Che Dusko:
Same here, lots of tears and laughter when I've Got The Joke ... then all went to shit and I feel suffering 24/7 again. The Joke went Puff on me
Im now crawling the initial stages yet again with lots of neck stiffness, back pain, throat pain, migrane like headackes and general agitation with it all. Im on the ride again. See you on the Joke Side some time down the path.
Yeah, the Joke. I went back and forth a bit recently with agnostic, who said that the joke was absurd and cruel. Of course, he may have just been yanking my chain (
) (yes, Papa Che, certain assholes have been known to yank my chain, just for the piss of it () (are you proud of your apprentice smiley user? skillful means, mate, the learning curve is on). I said to him, absurd is easy for me, i started with Camus, and one must imagine Sisyphus happy. But cruel is tough. The nanas of the Knowledges of Suffering can seem cruel as hell, pretty literally. But there is that moment when, as John of the Cross says in his "Living Flame of Love" poem, addressing the divine that has scorched his ass so completely, "Now that You are not oppressive . . ." Those are the moments of what I think of as getting the Joke, and it's not cruel, if anything it's as advertised, all mercy and love, and one moment of that is worth it all, and worth nothing, and let the hills rejoice. And it does seem to all go to shit again in short order, in round and round she goes fashion. That is the well of compassion, com-passio, suffering with. So us miserable bastards can let the dark night turn the Joke toward total black again and again, suffering with each other's intermittently inadequate senses of humor until all sentient beings get the Joke. Maybe I'll be the last one to get that belly laugh all the way. But those glimpses of laughter, those perfect chuckles . . .
Nice, no that's really helpful. 1.5-2 hours a day is pretty doable, that's about what I've been averaging lately. I'll check out that podcast, sounds interesting.
Haven't tried a formal meditation on mushrooms but look forward to trying it.
Most of my many hallucinogenic experiences occurred before I started meditating, for better or worse, though I think it's healthy to assume they have positively impacted my outlook on 'what's possible'
Cheers and best of luck on your journey.
Haven't tried a formal meditation on mushrooms but look forward to trying it.
Most of my many hallucinogenic experiences occurred before I started meditating, for better or worse, though I think it's healthy to assume they have positively impacted my outlook on 'what's possible'
Cheers and best of luck on your journey.