What property of stream entry expedites the actualism method?

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Harry Potter, modified 10 Years ago at 6/15/11 10:06 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 6/15/11 10:06 PM

What property of stream entry expedites the actualism method?

Posts: 84 Join Date: 5/20/11 Recent Posts
I understand stream entry as follows: a stage where an all-pervasive and permanent equanimity to first-order affective reactions sets in. Such equanimity guarantees non-reactiveness, i.e., no stickiness.

It is this property of stream entry - equanimity, instant letting go, non stickiness - that expedites the actualism method as less and less time is spent feeling the second (third, and so on) order reactions. With no further reactions, one is habitually close to the trigger, making it easy to nip it in the bud.

Although I am not meditating, I try to develop such an attitude when the going gets tough i.e., when I find myself already farther away from the initial trigger. However, SI makes this process habitual rather needing an 'attitude' about it.

One aspect of SI that I am not very clear is ... what does it actually mean to lose the belief in a "thinker" while retaining a sense of being/identity? I intellectually know that this body does not have a 'solid' identity which is just an emergent phenomenon (not a thing) of the brain. What does it mean to lose a belief in the 'thinker' when I already intellectually understand its no-thinginess? How does this losing the belief in a 'thinker' affect my thoughts and moods?
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#1 - 0, modified 10 Years ago at 6/16/11 7:13 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 6/16/11 7:13 PM

RE: What property of stream entry expedites the actualism method?

Posts: 104 Join Date: 8/8/10 Recent Posts
Perpetual present-state awareness at the level of the senses. Less likely to get "distracted" by "ghosts".
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Jon T, modified 10 Years ago at 6/18/11 11:54 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 6/18/11 11:50 AM

RE: What property of stream entry expedites the actualism method?

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/30/10 Recent Posts
What does it mean to lose a belief in the 'thinker' when I already intellectually understand its no-thinginess? How does this losing the belief in a 'thinker' affect my thoughts and moods?


What's up Harry?

SE is having seen the thinker in action, having observed its "no-thingness". That's mostly a guess as I have never attempted to answer this question myself. When you first see that 'you' are so complete ephemeral, it can be quite a shock. And mostly a positive one. But after the shock wears off, which for me was in a few days, everything returns to normal. One still has to uproot the sources of suffering. 'I' may realize that I am totally based on conditions but those conditions are still present. So I guess the task is to understand those conditions and remove them. Every time one sees a new condition and begins to remove it, one re-learns that one is totally empty of substance, completely based on conditions. My guess is that if you observe and mitigate just one condition of 'your' existence then you will gain SE.


Perpetual present-state awareness at the level of the senses.


This is very optimistic. Perhaps those who attained SE only after intense meditative practice experience this but I didn't. Anyone who is perpetually present-state aware at the level of the senses will very soon be free of self provided one is directed towards that goal and realizes that emotions, passions and the feeling of being are all equally conditional. And since SE is not the end-goal of any tradition that I'm aware of then I doubt the above quote is accurate.
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#1 - 0, modified 10 Years ago at 6/19/11 2:22 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 6/19/11 2:22 AM

RE: What property of stream entry expedites the actualism method?

Posts: 104 Join Date: 8/8/10 Recent Posts
Jon T:
What does it mean to lose a belief in the 'thinker' when I already intellectually understand its no-thinginess? How does this losing the belief in a 'thinker' affect my thoughts and moods?


What's up Harry?

SE is having seen the thinker in action, having observed its "no-thingness". That's mostly a guess as I have never attempted to answer this question myself. When you first see that 'you' are so complete ephemeral, it can be quite a shock. And mostly a positive one. But after the shock wears off, which for me was in a few days, everything returns to normal. One still has to uproot the sources of suffering. 'I' may realize that I am totally based on conditions but those conditions are still present. So I guess the task is to understand those conditions and remove them. Every time one sees a new condition and begins to remove it, one re-learns that one is totally empty of substance, completely based on conditions. My guess is that if you observe and mitigate just one condition of 'your' existence then you will gain SE.


Perpetual present-state awareness at the level of the senses.


This is very optimistic. Perhaps those who attained SE only after intense meditative practice experience this but I didn't. Anyone who is perpetually present-state aware at the level of the senses will very soon be free of self provided one is directed towards that goal and realizes that emotions, passions and the feeling of being are all equally conditional. And since SE is not the end-goal of any tradition that I'm aware of then I doubt the above quote is accurate.


i guess so. it has largely seemed that way for me though. or rather, before stream entry, i had to constantly remind "myself" to be attentive to the present moment, whereas afterwards it felt more like the state i was "falling into" and the distractions were something else... the whole game flipped.
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Jon T, modified 10 Years ago at 6/20/11 11:47 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 6/20/11 11:39 AM

RE: What property of stream entry expedites the actualism method?

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/30/10 Recent Posts
before stream entry, i had to constantly remind "myself" to be attentive to the present moment, whereas afterwards it felt more like the state i was "falling into" and the distractions were something else... the whole game flipped.


i agree with this as long as one was in the habit of trying to be present before se.




My guess is that if you observe and mitigate just one condition of 'your' existence then you will gain SE.


I want to clarify that statement. Better it be said: If you significantly mitigate just one condition then you will gain SE provided that is the goal. Obviously people improve their lives all the time without gaining SE and some people even significantly mitigate major causes of major suffering (usually through therapy). But if it isn't done within the paradigm of annata then SE won't be a result. Which begs the question, am I just seeing what I expect to see? Possibly in the beginning. One might say, 'ah so that is one what people are talking about!' But when the process of deconstruction snowballs and condition after condition is significantly mitigated then quite obviously the ego is too flimsy to have any real lasting nature. Which begs the question. Is SE the transparency of ego or the transparency of self?
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Harry Potter, modified 10 Years ago at 6/20/11 9:56 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 6/20/11 9:56 PM

RE: What property of stream entry expedites the actualism method?

Posts: 84 Join Date: 5/20/11 Recent Posts
Jon T:
What does it mean to lose a belief in the 'thinker' when I already intellectually understand its no-thinginess? How does this losing the belief in a 'thinker' affect my thoughts and moods?


What's up Harry?

SE is having seen the thinker in action, having observed its "no-thingness". That's mostly a guess as I have never attempted to answer this question myself. When you first see that 'you' are so complete ephemeral, it can be quite a shock. And mostly a positive one. But after the shock wears off, which for me was in a few days, everything returns to normal. One still has to uproot the sources of suffering. 'I' may realize that I am totally based on conditions but those conditions are still present. So I guess the task is to understand those conditions and remove them. Every time one sees a new condition and begins to remove it, one re-learns that one is totally empty of substance, completely based on conditions. My guess is that if you observe and mitigate just one condition of 'your' existence then you will gain SE..


Given that social identity beliefs are some conditions of 'my' existence, then does eliminating one of those beliefs (eg: see my 'investigating the belief of "a good life"' thread) gain me SE? If not, what do you mean by conditions of 'my' existence? Would you be able to point out of the conditions of 'my' existence in regards to my latest post (SAS vs CS) in Harry's Practice Thread?
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Jon T, modified 10 Years ago at 6/21/11 1:22 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 6/21/11 12:46 AM

RE: What property of stream entry expedites the actualism method?

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/30/10 Recent Posts
Good evening Harry,


Given that social identity beliefs are some conditions of 'my' existence, then does eliminating one of those beliefs (eg: see my 'investigating the belief of "a good life"' thread) gain me SE?


Yes. Eliminating the social need for status would most certainly reveal to you - experientially and without doubt - the ephemeral, stressful and conditional nature of the self. However, SE is also about fruition. (A debate about the validity of fruition would be very interesting.) So, technically, maybe it won't "gain me SE". But everything SE teaches, eliminating the social need for status will also teach you.


Would you be able to point out of the conditions of 'my' existence in regards to my latest post (SAS vs CS) in Harry's Practice Thread?


Harry Potter:
It seemed to me that there is a social identity layer on top of lust and romantic desire...I seem to conclude that I need to first mitigate this layer before investigating romantic desire itself.



You have already discovered it yourself! If you successfully remove or mitigate your social conditioning regarding lust and romantic desire, you will find them to be much much reduced. The way to do this is through attention + behavioral cognitive therapy + logic and reason. Notice the lust and romantic desire, ask yourself if your views on that matter are logical, ask yourself if the mood those views put you in is worthwhile, ask yourself if you are able to change this mood, ask yourself is it worthwhile to change this mood. Change the mood. Ask yourself if you are grateful for being able to change your mood and for having done so. Then move on to sensuousness. You will have to rinse and repeat a thousand times or more. But soon enough, the old refrains, what Dr. Ingram calls your internal tape loop, will be erased and new refrains will be recorded. These refrains will be automatic and they will be positive. They will remind you to stay out of stupid points of view and to stay within intelligent points of view or better yet, no points of view at all and felicity instead.

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